High End Pre Amp with Tone Controls

[jim1961]

I have a Hafler DH-110 Pre Amp and would like to find something better. I have about $450 to spend and would be open to something used. I have a Classe CA-100 Power Amp and a Rega Apollo cd player. A line stage unit would be fine for I have no vinyl.

Recommendations?

[dingus]

i cant offer any advise on what would appreciably best the Hafler for $450, but i'd be interested in it if you want to part with it.

as an alternative, you could invest in mods for the Hafler. Musical Concepts has a series of mods that you can DIY if you are so inclined, which would make for a very nice upgrade. they will also do the mods for you but it will increase your cost. http://www.musicaldesign.com/hafler.htm

[dogorman]

A $450 pre-owned preamp that includes tone controls. Hmmm.... Well, some of the vintage Rotel preamps had tone controls. A lot of Onkyo gear came / comes with tone controls, and Onkyo stuff always manages to sound surprisingly good. But you don't sound like someone who will be happy with "mid-fi" recommendations like Onkyo and Rotel. Personally I'm in the process of convincing myself to spend a small fortune on a piece made by Arcam -- way out of the budget you've stated, but a lot of their vintage stuff does, in fact, have tone controls, and they have an excellent "house sound," in my opinion. Quad preamps have a "step lift" feature that works like a tone control, if you like their sound -- though it's awfully polite for North American ears. One reviewer described its sound as "lazy," which seems a bit severe to me, but you get the idea. I guess with your budget and your requirements I'd look at a top-end Onkyo (P-304?) or a vintage Arcam.

I know you were cringing at the thought of everyone coming out of the woodwork to ask you this, but why exactly do you want to muddy-up the signal path with tone controls? They add a lot of distortion and, typically, they band-aid a limitation that could be addressed with room treatments or speaker placement. Plus, it's a lot more fun to recommend $450 preamps that don't have tone controls, because there's more of them with more varied sonic characteristics. PS Audio, Audio Research, and and Conrad Johnson all made preamps that can be had now for $450 and would sound... well... better than an Onkyo P-304 on the best day it ever had.

[jim1961]

First, let me say that ive been down the road of the purest. I know what great systems sound like that dont employ tone equalization. My conclusions were this: While many CD's sounded very good in this environment, I found some did not. Some recordings I find horribly deficient in the bass region, the treble region, or both. Plainly said, the sound engineer didnt always do his/her job properly.

Add to this that nowadays, you have a lot of material out there that is self released. Many of these recordings employ less than state of the art technology and sound flat and lifeless to me.

I also sample a lot of mp3's. Need more be said for the need for tonal capability for these?

[jim1961]

Yes. Onkyo did seem to usually surpass itself for the money involved, but mid-fi probably better describes it as does it describe Hafler.

[dogorman]

I take your point, though it goes without saying that self-produced mp-3s on a Classe power amp is a combination that is one-hundred percent guaranteed to disappoint, sonically, because the Classe is too good at revealing everything wrong, upstream.

That having been said, what about a pre-owned Arcam? Are you familiar with their sound? I'm consistently impressed with their gear -- indeed just bought something else of theirs for a ton of money -- and my recent shopping confirms that many of their preamps come/came with tone controls.

Off the top of my head, Quad makes (made) the highest-end preamp that I can think of that comes (came) with tone controls, but I'm a little concerned about the fit with the rest of your equipment. Just out of curiosity, do you find yourself turning the bass dial to the right more often, or the treble dial to the left? If it's the former, the Quad is probably a poor choice. If it's the latter, we just might be on to something....

[Glen B]

I have a Hafler DH-110 Pre Amp and would like to find something better. I have about $450 to spend and would be open to something used. I have a Classe CA-100 Power Amp and a Rega Apollo cd player. A line stage unit would be fine for I have no vinyl.

Recommendations?

A used B&K MC-101 Sonata preamp -- if you can find one -- is the only one I can think of in your price range that will do any kind of justice with your amp and CD player. Years ago I owned an MC-101 that I mated with my Classé CA-300 amp for a while before upgrading to a Classé preamp.

[jim1961]

A used B&K MC-101 Sonata preamp -- if you can find one -- is the only one I can think of in your price range that will do any kind of justice with your amp and CD player. Years ago I owned an MC-101 that I mated with my Classé CA-300 amp for a while before upgrading to a Classé preamp.

How much better was the Classe pre amp over the B&K?

[jim1961]

I take your point, though it goes without saying that self-produced mp-3s on a Classe power amp is a combination that is one-hundred percent guaranteed to disappoint, sonically, because the Classe is too good at revealing everything wrong, upstream.

That having been said, what about a pre-owned Arcam? Are you familiar with their sound? I'm consistently impressed with their gear -- indeed just bought something else of theirs for a ton of money -- and my recent shopping confirms that many of their preamps come/came with tone controls.

Off the top of my head, Quad makes (made) the highest-end preamp that I can think of that comes (came) with tone controls, but I'm a little concerned about the fit with the rest of your equipment. Just out of curiosity, do you find yourself turning the bass dial to the right more often, or the treble dial to the left? If it's the former, the Quad is probably a poor choice. If it's the latter, we just might be on to something....

I find myself turning the bass up on most things. Im not sure that eliminates the Quads, but I take your point.

The B&K unit does seem a good choice. Thanks for the suggestion.

[dogorman]

I've little experience with B&K,personally, but a lot of people seem really impressed. Between the B&K, the Arcam, and the Quad, you'd certainly have a wide range of sonic signatures.

[jim1961]

I've little experience with B&K,personally, but a lot of people seem really impressed. Between the B&K, the Arcam, and the Quad, you'd certainly have a wide range of sonic signatures.

While im sure thats true, I havent the faintest what they are since ive never heard a single product from any of them, much less the specific models im interested in. I suppose in the end, its a crap shoot on my part, but I see no other way.

[dogorman]

Here's what I did in the same situation, and I'd do it again: research the various pieces you think you might be interested in, starting with reviews. Most reviews suffer from terrible grade inflation (few people want to say that their own gear is rubbish, after all), but with practice you can tell whose stuff would make a better fit by the choice of adjectives. If someone said their amp was "full-throated" and "b*llsy" I'd know not to try it, for instance.

Once you've got a short list of two or three -- including one essential dark horse -- then you can research what they're going for. In a pinch, a month's subscription to the audiogon blue book is a quick and dirty way to do this part.

Then find a reputable seller of each candidate (audiogon is generally a little better than Ebay, but you pay for that difference), who is offering the piece for within a few bucks either side of what it's going for on the open market.

Then buy them all at once.

I know that sounds crazy, but for the hundred or two hundred worth of financial exposure and transactions cost, you'll never regret having had them all in the house at the same time to make quick change-outs.

I see you with a Quad-33, a nice top-end B&K from a few years ago, an Arcam, and some really warm, tubey preamp that doesn't have tone-controls, just to be sure, and I see you having a ball of a weekend, switching back and forth. When the weekend is over, you box everything up that isn't the winner, and sell 'em all for exactly what you paid, and you're out a few bucks in shipping and listing-fees.

[dogorman]

...By the way, there is an Arcam FMJ-C30 Preamp on Audiogon for $600, and it has tone controls.

[jim1961]

...By the way, there is an Arcam FMJ-C30 Preamp on Audiogon for $600, and it has tone controls.

Thanks! But thats a bit out of budget :(

Found a MC-101 for $450, im still mulling spending that much.

[PeruvianSkies]

Thanks! But thats a bit out of budget :(

Found a MC-101 for $450, im still mulling spending that much.

Ok, so you are looking for a HIGH END pre-amp, and $600 is much, even $450 is questionable...I think you are in the wrong hobby my friend. You aren't going to find a pre-amp for that price with HIGH END capabilities, not even close.

[jim1961]

Ok, so you are looking for a HIGH END pre-amp, and $600 is much, even $450 is questionable...I think you are in the wrong hobby my friend. You aren't going to find a pre-amp for that price with HIGH END capabilities, not even close.

Im quite aware of what hobby I am in, and raising to the top of high end isnt my goal for what im prepared to spend. Im merely trying to improve over a Hafler Pre Amp, and I think thats do-able for a few hundred dollars.

[dogorman]

I think it's doable for a few hundred dollars, too -- especially if you don't mind something that's a bit older, with all the question marks that come with it. So to that extent I agree with you and not with Peruvian. But, on the other hand, it did trouble me to hear such a quick dismissal of a $600 candidate that was highly acclaimed, and brand-new -- and I was troubled not on the basis of the absolute expenditure but rather on the basis of internal consistency.

You're running a very high-end power amp (as I said in a previous post, perhaps even a little "too" high-end for some of your source material), and a person's preamp is, in my opinion, the cornerstone of his entire system. I'd expect that, to a person who is already deep enough into all of this stuff to have a Classe power amp, that a kick-butt preamp by a company riding a killer wave of good word-of-mouth for sound quality and value right now, brand new, would be worth an extra thirty-six Lattes over budget. An opinion worth exactly what you paid for it, to be sure, but if I were you I'd try to hear a brand-new Arcam before I bought anything from the long-term used pile, regardless of maker.

[jim1961]

I think it's doable for a few hundred dollars, too -- especially if you don't mind something that's a bit older, with all the question marks that come with it. So to that extent I agree with you and not with Peruvian. But, on the other hand, it did trouble me to hear such a quick dismissal of a $600 candidate that was highly acclaimed, and brand-new -- and I was troubled not on the basis of the absolute expenditure but rather on the basis of internal consistency.

You're running a very high-end power amp (as I said in a previous post, perhaps even a little "too" high-end for some of your source material), and a person's preamp is, in my opinion, the cornerstone of his entire system. I'd expect that, to a person who is already deep enough into all of this stuff to have a Classe power amp, that a kick-butt preamp by a company riding a killer wave of good word-of-mouth for sound quality and value right now, brand new, would be worth an extra thirty-six Lattes over budget. An opinion worth exactly what you paid for it, to be sure, but if I were you I'd try to hear a brand-new Arcam before I bought anything from the long-term used pile, regardless of maker.

Im sorry, I didnt mean my post to be dismissive, but frankly money is a big factor here for my financial situation has changed drastically for the worse since the days I was buying Classe power amps. And the Rega cd player was a gift, so I paid nothing for it. So believe me when I say that $450 is my all out top end.

[Feanor]

Im sorry, I didnt mean my post to be dismissive, but frankly money is a big factor here for my financial situation has changed drastically for the worse since the days I was buying Classe power amps. And the Rega cd player was a gift, so I paid nothing for it. So believe me when I say that $450 is my all out top end.

Sometime ago I saw an older Classe preamp for sale on Audiogo. Unfortunately I don't recall the model number. I had remote control and balance outputs which are nice. The seller was asking $450 which struck me as quite a bargin at the time.

[jim1961]

Found a AR sp-4 for $350

Any thoughts?

[PeruvianSkies]

Im sorry, I didnt mean my post to be dismissive, but frankly money is a big factor here for my financial situation has changed drastically for the worse since the days I was buying Classe power amps. And the Rega cd player was a gift, so I paid nothing for it. So believe me when I say that $450 is my all out top end.

Well, I mean this is the best way...but if your financial situation has turned that far south than maybe a pre-amp is not the priority right now.

[dogorman]

I had Val Kilmer's SP-5 a few years ago (no kidding -- it actually once belonged to Val Kilmer) but I didn't care for it: noise floor was too high. The newer Audio Research stuff seems a lot better. Are there tone controls on an SP-4? I don't remember there being any on my SP-5.

[jim1961]

I had Val Kilmer's SP-5 a few years ago (no kidding -- it actually once belonged to Val Kilmer) but I didn't care for it: noise floor was too high. The newer Audio Research stuff seems a lot better. Are there tone controls on an SP-4? I don't remember there being any on my SP-5.

yup

http://www.arcdb.ws/SP4/SP4.html

Only the sp3, sp4 and sp4a had them apparently.

[dogorman]

Is it possible for you to hear the SP-4 before buying? As I said, I thought Mr. Kilmer's SP-5 was awfully hissy. I suppose if you can't hear before you buy, you can always buy and then turn around and re-sell if you don't like. Obviously, ARC is a standard-bearer in preamps -- though my limited exposure to the brand would suggest they are stronger on the tube side.

[jim1961]

I called B&K. To make a long story short, they told me that they no longer have many of the parts for this unit. Additionally, the power supply is a separate unit and if goes out, they have no replacements, or ability to fix them. Basically, if something goes out, throw it in the garbage.

To say the least, this was quite discouraging. But realistically, im going to run into this with probably all these old dinosaurs.

So, im going to change my strategy. See my new thread for details.

[E-Stat]

Found a AR sp-4 for $350 Any thoughts?The first "analog module" SS ARC stuff (SP-4, D-100) was horrible! Harry Pearson raked those products over the coals when they were released (remember he liked their previous work and considered the SP-3a SOTA). Similarly, I have been an ARC fan for decades having purchased my first preamp from them in 1981. It was an SP-6 which was Bill Johnson's answer to the constructive criticism of the SP-4. I use an SP-9 MKIII to this day. Great stuff.

rw

[Glen B]

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How much better was the Classe pre amp over the B&K?

I went from the B&K to a Classé CP-45. Not a huge jump but noticeable. The Classé was more transparent, had lower grain, more natural timbre and a bigger soundstage. I upgraded later to the CP-50. That was a significant improvement over the CP-45.


While im sure thats true, I havent the faintest what they are since ive never heard a single product from any of them, much less the specific models im interested in. I suppose in the end, its a crap shoot on my part, but I see no other way.

The B&K PRO-10MC Sonata was a reviewer favorite among a number of mags during the 1980s including Stereophile and The $ensible Sound. The PRO-10MC Sonata was mainly a stripped down version of the MC-101 sans tone controls. Both preamps were based on the same chassis, PC board and outboard power supply. The MC-101 got a very good review in the now-defunct Hi-Fi Heretic magazine. I don't think you would be disappointed with the MC-101, especially in light of your budget.

[BRANDONH]

I have a Hafler DH-110 Pre Amp and would like to find something better. I have about $450 to spend and would be open to something used. I have a Classe CA-100 Power Amp and a Rega Apollo cd player. A line stage unit would be fine for I have no vinyl.

Recommendations?
refurbished 449.00 + shipping (will put a bit over budget)
full warranty factory authorized dealer.
tone controls can be defeated with a push of a button.
I have one of the refurbished units myself from the same dealer and just love it.
And if you ever get into vinyl it will be ready for both cartridges MM & MC
Great for bi-amping I use the adjustable bi-amp outputs for the subs.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f44/theboykid/060615161402-1200-C162_3_4.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f44/theboykid/060615161824-1200-C162_rear.jpg
you can read all about it here:
http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C162-Stereo-Preamplifier
and get it here new or refurbished:
http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/C162.asp

[dogorman]

What's this, you say? An NAD component that ever needed to be refurbished? Gosh, I didn't think NAD equipment ever broke in the first place! Who ever heard of a broken piece of audio equipment made by NAD???

[BRANDONH]

What's this, you say? An NAD component that ever needed to be refurbished? Gosh, I didn't think NAD equipment ever broke in the first place! Who ever heard of a broken piece of audio equipment made by NAD???
Yeah I don't know
Mine looked and smelled brand new.
here is what spearit sound says about them:
http://www.spearitsound.com/refurbished.htm

[Feanor]

Yeah I don't know
Mine looked and smelled brand new.
here is what spearit sound says about them:
http://www.spearitsound.com/refurbished.htm

Thanks Brandonh, the description of "refurbished" is excellent.

And it mentions one use of refurbished that is quite key in my opinion: "Brand new overstocked items are also labeled factory refurbished." In fact, the refurbished units are not necessarily even overstocks.

Are you familiar with the concept of "market stratification"? It means finding ways to charge extra to those people who are willing to pay more while not forfeiting revenue from those who are willing to pay only a lessor amount. That is, you'd really like two prices for (more-or-less) the same product. There are many devices for doing this. E.g. Need an airline ticket at the last moment? Fine, but you have to pay a higher price.

So ... if you selling electronics maybe you sell your "new" stuff through regular brick & mortar retailers, and "refurbished" stuff, (which is exactly the same in reality), through an online retailer