Need advice, please!

[dogorman]

I am running a pair of Linn Ninkas in a small, poured concrete room, and they're a lot of speaker for that application -- especially at the low end. I'm satisfied with my choice of preamp (an old Rotel 995) but the choice of amplification is quickly becoming the bane of my existence. I've tried a Parasound Halo A23 (too brittle), a Linn AV-5105 (way too boomy at the bottom, though my best friend loves it for his Katans), and a Rotel RB-981 (too brittle AND too boomy, at the same time!).

Now here's the interesting part: right now I'm running an Arcam A-60 as my power (the control stage doesn't work but I've still got the Rotel preamp) and it sounds wonderful -- despite the fact that my friend paid $2 for it at a garage sale. The detail, in particular, is as clean and clear as I've ever heard on anything. The only trouble is, first, it's way too small and clips all the time, and, second, sometimes it doesn't actually work at all -- it will just go completely dead.

I need some advice before I go back to buying everything under a thousand bucks and hoping I can re-sell them all. I've considered trying a Bryston 2B, a Quad 909, a beefier Arcam, a newer Rotel, something by Acurus or Aragon, a Bel Canto, an Onkyo M-504/508/510, or a Naim.

The key characteristics of the amp are: 1) not overpowering at the bottom, since the rest of the system is already; 2) exemplary in the area of micro-details like fingers squeaking across guitar strings; 3) musical across the whole spectrum without any obvious roll-off at the top.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated -- particularly any reactions that would narrow the list of candidates described above. I've had lots of mechanical problems so I'm loathe to try tube gear (not that tube gear necessarily fails, mechanically, BEYOND having to periodically replace the tubes), and I can't spend a lot more than I'll get by selling what I have now, which means anything over about $700 is pushing the envelope.

author@escpaeclause.net

[dogorman]

Update -- the search would seem to be narrowing down to four integrated amps that are all over the map, price-wise: the PS-Audio GSC-100, the Arcam FMJ-A22 with DAVE module, a used Linn Classik, and the Onkyo A-9555. I know that sounds crazy, and it's a long story, but anyone care to comment on the tradeoff between sound and money, with those four?

[musicman1999]

If you like the Arcam sound,as i do,why go anywhere else.That FMJ should be very nice.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

I agree, if you don't want to go on the audio merry-go-round just go with what you know is going to work, the Arcam.

If you have a way to listen to it the Onkyo 9555 is supposed to be a giant killer. It is a Class D amp section yet Onkyo still makes it to more than double it's power into 4 ohms.

[dogorman]

Bought the Arcam late yesterday afternoon -- will add an Onkyo to the stable (at minimal financial risk, since resale is so strong) if the Arcam doesn't sound as good as I'm fully expecting it to.

So, next question: does anyone know how these DAVE modules are supposed to work? I seem to want to think they allow for playing of a 5.1 signal through a 2.0 system with no loss of content, but I could be woefully mistaken and it would be nice to know before the thing gets here.

[Mr Peabody]

What Arcam amp did you get? The last time I heard of DAV it was additional amplification that turned a 2 channel into a 5 channel. That was a while back. I don't believe it's current.

If you get both amps, be sure to let us know how the 9555 compares.

[dogorman]

The Arcam I bought is the FMJ-A22 and the DAVE module definitely has something to do with 5.1 sound, but I'm fuzzy on the details. It's clear that, with the DAVE unit, you can plug a second Arcam (presumably the FMJ P-25-3) into the rear apron of the A22, and have instant 5.1 sound without buying a processor. What isn't clear is what happens when you try to run a 5.1 signal into an A22 alone, and thence only to 2 speakers. I was rather hoping that the DAVE module down-mixes the 5.1 signal back to 2.0, so I could finally start hearing the dialogue in movies again -- but now I'm not so sure.

[Mr Peabody]

The A22 does not come with a DAVE module. Did the one you bought have it installed?

The FMJ A22 is the upgraded version of the Alpha 10, here's a link with a little info:
http://www.arcam.co.uk/alpha/cinema/cindave.html

[dogorman]

The particular unit I bought had the DAVE module already installed, yes. I'll read the link -- thank you!

[Mr Peabody]

That's a plus. I'm sure the P3 would be the optimum but I wonder if you could use any 3 channel amp with it. I'm sure most of these questions will be answered when you get your hands on the unit. What CD player are you using? Some years back I had a Alpha 9 CD player and auditioned the Alpha 10 integrated with it in my home. This was a magical combination. At the time I felt I needed more power and opted for the Krell 300i and hence a whole chain of hi fi events.

You may be able to use the digital decoder in 2 channel but if you went with any surround mode you'd be missing information without an amp/speakers for the additional channels.

[dogorman]

I use a Sony HDMI-upconverting DVD player (DVP-NS70H) and a 50" Panasonic plasma TV (TH-50PX60U). Both of these devices appears to have at least one sub-menu for toggling between 2.0 and 5.1 -- indeed the DVD player would seem to have three such places. There's a "setup" menu that you can access when there is no disc in the tray, then a "mode" you can select while the movie is playing back, and then a button on the remote that says "surround" and seems to toggle through a series of emulation algorithms. This isn't counting the TV, into which the RCA cables for the DVD player currently run.

What's been so frustrating for me is that I can spend all day long goofing with all of those different menus and still not hear a DVD that was recorded in 5.1 very well through my 2.0 system. I'm under the impression that it should be possible -- indeed easy -- but at this point I'm just thoroughly frustrated. I'd somehow gotten the impression that the DAVE module would clean this up (I was using the term "down-mix" with the salesman, which didn't make the conversation go any more smoothly), but now my concern is that it will do just the opposite: leave me with one more opportunity for the electronics to think there are 5.1 speakers out there to play signal through.

I know this has nothing to do with the original thread but I'd be really grateful if you had any counsel.

[musicman1999]

The fmj comes with what is known as the multichannel input board and it only gives 2 multichannel analog inputs.Not the same as the DAVE at all.Btw using that Sony as a cd player is holding the rest of your system back.Invest in a good cd player first.

bill

[dogorman]

My FMJ has a DAVE installed.

[dogorman]

Here's a Stereophile review of the Arcam FMJ-A22 without the DAVE, but the reviewer is careful to point out that the DAVE is fully compatible with this unit.

http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/400arcam/

Cheers.

[dogorman]

...and no, I'm not using the Sony as a CD-player. My CD-player is a Linn Mimik. Since we were talking about 5.1 sound, I figured it went without saying that we were dealing with video playback, not CD -- sorry!

[Mr Peabody]

If you are using the L/R analog outs of your DVD into the TV you will always get 2.0. When no disc is in set the DVD to 2.0. The discs themselves should default to 2.0 automatically but just to be sure, access the discs menu once it's loaded and make sure it is set to 2.0. You can't get 5.1 out of the stereo analog out. The only way to get 5.1 is with the digital out or the 5.1 analog out. Sometimes the DVD players will offer some virtual surround modes for 2 channel. Once you are sure everything is set correctly you can try some of them to see if any help. You may want to review your owners manual to see if it gives you and idea of what the modes are for. If I'm not mistaken your DVD player will only do 2.0 via the HDMI. You should use one or the other, analog or HDMI, not both into your TV. If you are not hearing the voices well for some reason you can try adjusting the tone controls on your TV. Other than that I am at a loss.

Your DVD player will down mix 5.1 into 2.0 when 2.0 is selected. If you use the L/R stereo out of the DVD into the Arcam you will only get 2.0. If you connect using digital you should get 5.1, but every surround receiver or processor I've seen has a stereo setting for the digital inputs. If you don't want the extra amps or speaker you will be fine with 2.0.

I have noticed when watching DVD's through my TV upstairs, this is using HDMI into the TV, that with the dynamic range of the soundtracks that when listening to the dialog at a reasonable level that when the action starts, it's much louder. Most DVD players have a "night" mode inside their menu. This feature compresses the soundtrack some so that all the sound is closer in volume. This may be something you want to try as well to see if it helps.

[dogorman]

This is how spotty my knowledge in this stuff is: I didn't know that the HDMI cable carried audio signal as well as video. So I've started there -- with disconnecting the red and white RCA audio lines from the player to the TV; THANK YOU. There's still a problem with 5.1 source material, but the overall sound is greatly improved. Next step after that is to read the manuals, I guess. Obviously you don't get 5.1 channels of signal from two wires coming out of a piece of equipment, but when the source material is recorded 5.1 there's something either happening that shouldn't or not happening that should, to muddy the sound.

[Mr Peabody]

Don't get caught up on a disc being 5.1. Many people just hook a DVD to a TV. The DVD player is designed and very capable of doing 2.0 and not losing any sound. Just be sure the player is set internally to 2.0 or analog out.

Describe what problem you are having. Honestly, it is very uncommon for anyone to have a player try to do 5.1 into a 2.0 set up. I'm wondering if the players just send the signal to the analog outs anyway because I've thrown players into my kids rooms in a 2.0 to the TV without any setting up and it just seems to do it.

You are going HDMI into your TV, and then what's the rest of your set up?

[dogorman]

HDMI only to TV -- thanks to your earlier post! -- then just two (L&R) RCA-outs from the TV to the "video" inputs on my Rotel preamp. So, as far as that goes, nothing is hooked up with five wires to five sockets, so there's no way that any of the sound can be "dropped on the floor". It has to be something involving all of those wacky internal settings -- I just can't figure out which. Would it be okay if I took some digital photos of the various screen menus and posted them? Maybe you could tell just at a glance that I've got something set up improperly. As I said, my real concern is that adding this Arcam (due to arrive on Thursday! Yea!) will layer-on another set of virtual switches for me to fudge-up because I'm such a retard.

[dogorman]

...And by "video" inputs on the Rotel I don't, of course, mean to imply that I'm hooking red and white audio outputs on the TV to yellow inputs on a preamp -- I mean that the input selector designates this particular audio input as "video".

[Mr Peabody]

...And by "video" inputs on the Rotel I don't, of course, mean to imply that I'm hooking red and white audio outputs on the TV to yellow inputs on a preamp -- I mean that the input selector designates this particular audio input as "video".

Wooo... I'm glad you cleared that up. I don't see well so I don't think your pictures will help me but some one else here may pick something up.

Is the TV audio out "fixed" or "variable"? If you are using the Rotel for volume control, you should be using a fixed output. Try an experiment and go from your DVD's analog audio out to see if the sound is better or you have the same problem. If it's the same problem, I don't know what to think, maybe try a different set of cables and check the settings on the Rotel. Once you have the Arcam, if possible you should use a digital connection for audio. Most likely if your TV has HDMI, it probably has a digital audio out.

[dogorman]

Right now the audio is being carried by the HDMI cable -- are you suggesting that I not use that when the Arcam gets here? I'll post the pics tomorrow.

[Mr Peabody]

You can still use HDMI for when you are just watching TV and not the system on. Or, your TV may offer a digital out you can take advantage of. In most A/V set ups people do not put the TV in the audio path. You should take the audio directly to your amp, now, and, with the Arcam. I'd suggest using a digital connection to the Arcam because it will have a great D to A converter in it and should give you some good sound, way better than you'd pick up from a TV.

[dogorman]

I have a digital output on both my DVD player and my TV, but won't have a digital input to connect it to until the Arcam gets here, projected for the end of this week. This brings me back to my earlier concern in a big way, though, since the 5.1 signal can travel over a digital out, which means that I'm going to mess something up and not be able to hear anything.

If I'm understanding the state of the discussion, it's this: 1) Run HDMI from the DVD player to the TV and no yellow RCA patch-cords to the analog video input. 2) Run digital audio cable (where do I get a good one and how much should it cost?) from the DVD player directly to the Arcam. 3) Set the DVD player for 2.0 sound. 4) ...What about settings for the Arcam?

[dogorman]

...I also registered myself for an AV/Home Theater forum and posted the same question there -- perhaps I should start a new thread over in the home theater section of these forums, too?

[Mr Peabody]

You've got it. Your digital audio connection could come from either the TV or the DVD digital out. I'd use the most convenient or shortest run.

As long as your Arcam is set to 2.0 you won't lose any sound. The rest of the settings are up to your preference. I'm not familiar with the DAVE's menu.

Boy, digital cable..... As any cable you can go from cheap to outrageous. I do believe that though digital is 1's and 0's it still has to be handled carefully, so I buy quality cables. I have some Transparent and one by Zu. I recently found a brand called Tributaries that is a good value, they offer better than average performance at a budget price. I am using one of their HDMI cables and it does very well. If none of these are local and you don't want to order, your local shop probably offers a quality line, Audioquest, Kimber, Cardas etc.

You know I just pulled my Denon 1600 out of my HT system where I was using the digital audio out to my processor, I took it to the bedroom and ran L/R analog audio to my TV there, I did not switch anything inside the 1600 and it just played the analog 2.0 fine. I'm not sure what problem you are having with your sound but I'm sure it has nothing to do with a DVD being played in 2.0.

[Mr Peabody]

You know as I think about this, DVD's have to have both 2.0 and multi-channel mixes. My remote has a button on it that scrolls through all the audio tracks on a disc. I could hit the button and it might go to 2.0, hit it again and I might start hearing the director's commentary and again, I would be back at 5.1. So as long as you go into the DVD's menu and choose 2.0 you be assured that is what you are getting.

[Mr Peabody]

Here's a link to a page with links that may help with your seating question. Look at article #1 & #2 under "Most viewed EzineArticles".

http://ezinearticles.com/?720p-Vs-1080i-HDTV&id=91443

[dogorman]

I've been finding that most DVD's come with an optional 2.0 mix, yes, but some of them don't -- which I wouldn't have believed, either, if I hadn't seen it myself -- and it is precisely these movies that are causing the problems. ("Layer Cake" with Daniel Craig and Colm Meany, doesn't have a 2.0 audio track, for example.) This is what inspired me to think that it had something to do with one of the menu settings in either the DVD player or the TV: if the movie itself is only available in 5.1 (which my DVD player improbably refers to as "3/2.1"), then the onus is on the electronics to "figure out" what to do with all of those channels, on the way to a single pair of speakers.

[Mr Peabody]

The menu might not give 2.0 as an option but I can't imagine a 5.1 only DVD. I'd be willing to bet that us who listen/watch DVD's in 5.1 are still a minority. I'm not exactly sure how the player knows what to output but I'm sure if you are using the 2 channel analog you are getting all there is to offer out of it.

Maybe an email to Sony will give a clue. AR's "digital domain" may be dead but try a post there are how DVD players output 2 channel, maybe some one will have more info.

[dogorman]

I just double checked and, no, Layer Cake isn't recorded in 2.0 at all -- unless you want to listen to the commentary. The 5.1 track is the only audio track on the disc.

I also got out the owners' manual for the DVD player again, and I was wrong: there aren't two or three different menu settings that could be the problem; there are more like ELEVEN. And none of them are written-up in a way that is of any use to me at all. Here's a sample:

"When you select one of the TV Virtual Surround Settings, if you use the DIGITAL OUT (OPTICAL or COAXIAL) / HDMI OUT jack and set "DOLBY DIGITAL" to "DOLBY DIGITAL," and "DTS" to "ON" in "AUDIO SETUP," sound will come from your speakers but it will not have the surround effect." (Page 43)

...Sound will come from my speakers? Does that mean "sound will come from my rear channel speakers (if I have any, which I don't), but they won't play the actual surround channel," or does that mean, "sound will come from my front speakers" (which it always does, just not always intelligebly)? Or does it mean something else altogether?

Here's another, from a completely different place in the manual:

"DOWNMIX switches the method for mixing down to 2 channels when you play a DVD which has rear sound elements (channels) or is recorded in Dolby Digital format. Normally, set to DOLBY SURROUND. Multi-channel audio signals are output to 2-channels for enjoying surround sounds. Set to NORMAL and multi-channel audio signals are downmixed to 2 channels for use with your stereo." (Page 66.)

Have I got that right? DOLBY SURROUND sends the multi-channel content to 2-channels, but, on the other hand, NORMAL is the setting if you want the multi-channel content down-mixed to 2-channels? Isn't that THE SAME FREAKING THING?

...And on into the night. There are, at least, six other settings you can toggle, that I didn't quote the manual on, here. If I quoted them all, the post would go on for two pages (and probably by the end of it there would be blood seeping from your ears).

I'll try e-mailing Sony, but I'll be very surprised to get an answer -- and, besides, they can't help me to make sure that the eleventeen different menu settings on the Arcam are all toggled just right, too.

Yikes.

[Mr Peabody]

I think the first one means the virtual surround will cancel out the DD. Is this the manual to the TV or DVD player? It sounds like "down mix" and "normal" are the two setting you need.

In my profile I have my email turned on. This sounds like something that may need a phone call if you are interested.

[dogorman]

Great -- right now I'm going to bed but I'll contact you via private e-mail tomorrow (Saturday).

Thanks so much.

Dave.

[Mr Peabody]

If you go digital to the Arcam it may not be that confusing because then you just have to set the Arcam and forget the player. If you send me a message I prefer regular email to PM.

[musicman1999]

Just connect left and right analog connection dvd player to arcam.Player will downmix automatically 5.1 does not matter.

bill

[PeruvianSkies]

Just connect left and right analog connection dvd player to arcam.Player will downmix automatically 5.1 does not matter.

bill

That's what I was thinking too, shouldn't be an issue..the 2.0 mix will essentially be a fold-down of the 5.1.

[dogorman]

Well, the mystery is that in the past I've had it set up that way -- HDMI carrying only video to the TV and 2-channel analog outputs carrying audio directly to the amp. And even in that configuration I could always tell when the DVD in question had a 5.1 audio track, because I wouldn't be able to hear anything that wasn't a car chase or a Death Star exploding.

Many of the settings that I've experimented with (and subsequently complained about in my OP) seem to apply various manipulations to the signal -- from the creation of "virtual surround speakers" to adjustment of the sampling frequency of the output signal. There's even a setting labeled "DOWNMIX", which ostensibly changes the manner in which a 5.1 signal is mixed down to 2.0, though neither the manual nor repeated experiments have revealed exactly how the two options for this setting differ, or which one is right. And all of this stuff -- all of it -- effects the sound, even when using 2-channel analog outs.

So, I mean no disrespect -- please understand that I realize everyone's just trying to help -- but if one more person says, "All the content of a 5.1 signal has to be automatically downmixed to your 2-channel RCA analog outputs, so why don't you just do that," I think I'm going to slit my wrists.

[dogorman]

Wait, "...and subsequently complained about in my OP...." is a misnomer: I have a thread under video where I'm complaining about this, but my OP in this forum was about something completely different, sorry.

[Mr Peabody]

When you listen do you use only the amp? It sounds to me like maybe your TV has a 5.1 decoder built in it which could cause your problem if only using the TV via a digital audio connection, which HDMI is. So if this is true, only using the TV for sound or both TV and amp it could drowned out some of the center channel info which would only be coming from the amps speakers as you have no center hooked to the TV. My suggestion, if applicable, would be to only use the amp for sound. It is impossible using L/R out into L/R in of the amp to miss any info.

[PeruvianSkies]

So, I mean no disrespect -- please understand that I realize everyone's just trying to help -- but if one more person says, "All the content of a 5.1 signal has to be automatically downmixed to your 2-channel RCA analog outputs, so why don't you just do that," I think I'm going to slit my wrists.

Without actually seeing what you are working with it's a little hard for us to give advice without being there, and because of that we are only going by what our experience tells us. You have posted quite a few times here in the past few days about all sorts of various HELP questions, which is fine, but don't be surprised when you get similar answers or even a variety of answers, we can only give you advice based on the information that you provide and what our level of expertise tells us.

With that I also would like to point out that there are 3 ways to hook something up:

1. the right way.
2. the wrong way.
3. the way that works, but is not ideal and has limitations.

To me, it sounds like you are mostly on the 3rd way in that your setup is not ideal and that you are retro-fitting many things in order to try and achieve a proper setup. Because of that you are going to find more challenges than answers. Also, the mixture of equipment with different compatibility affects this to, i.e. TV, receiver, player.