When did you first here "it" [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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Worf101
02-24-2004, 08:52 AM
I've been in this hobby for some 5 years now. I've always loved music, both in the listening and the playing, but never understood what they were talking about in those stereo magazines. Until coming here, I had no idea what a "soundstage" was except from the recording industry. I used cheap, second hand gear that sounded like mud. Then one day after improving my college dorm gear to a decent amp and mains, I was listening to some modern jazz piece by one of the Marsalis clan...

All of sudden it hit me like a thunderbolt from the blue. The drums were at left center, the horns were dead on at 12:00 and strings and guitar to the right. Other instruments came and went but all had their "place" in the room. I was stunned. I'd never heard music reproduced this way. Mids and highs became more important to me than "bump and thump" and I became a more discerning listener...

I saw the light as it were. When and how did this happen to you?

Da Wondering Worfster :p

kexodusc
02-24-2004, 09:01 AM
It was probably 1998 for me. I remember the track...Sarah Brightman's "Time to Say Goodbye"....
I was running my old Wharfedales off an older NAD integrated I picked up to replace a crappy Technics/PSB setup I had.
I had the Wharfedales positioned just outside my HT main speakers (probably PSB Alpha's at that time). I remember wondering if this was a 5.1 setup and if the CD was being fed to my Marantz receiver, because I was sure I was getting channel separation because the orchestra was so wide and sounded deep behind the wall, whereas Bocelli and Brightman were centered and focused. After a few trips back and forth from my couch to my center channel I finally clued in to what it was I had been reading in those magazines about imaging and soundstage.

This discovery hasn't helped my pocket book any.

topspeed
02-24-2004, 10:54 AM
Worfster, you always come up with cool discussions.

I was in college as well (a prevailing theme I'm sure) and had just received my first bonus check from my internship in Newport Beach. Hey, I'm young and living in the moment so why not blow it all on stereo equipment, right? I went into a local hi-fi shop and they had a Linn Sondek table hooked to a Theta DS Pre/ARC combo pushing Mirage M1's. Remember, back in the late 80's bi-polar speaks were relatively new and exotic. The room was well treated with corner traps and they were playing Phil Wood's "Here's to My Lady." In a word: WOW! Granted, some of it was probably my brain getting accustomed to the bi-polar sound but I'm with you in that I'd never heard a soundstage set up so palpably real. I walked out with a PS Audio 4.6 pre and B&K ST140 amp. While the B&K proved to be dead reliable and a great amp I was thisclose to buying a Counterpoint amp and to this day wonder what it would have been like...

Oh yeah, I also bought that Phil Wood's disc which is front of me as we speak.

E-Stat
02-24-2004, 11:19 AM
That would be in 1974 (age 17) when I first heard a pair of Tympani IIIs triamped with Audio Research electronics. The soundstage of Solti's Berlioz' "Symphonie Fantastique" took on a far more realistic height and width of the live event than I had ever previously heard. It was also reproduced with such ease and clarity. There was no boxiness whatsoever. I bought a pair of the smaller MG-IIs a year later.

Fast forward a quarter of a century. My frame of reference of just how good home audio can sound got completely recalibrated about three years ago when I first heard HP's Alon based system (I was familiar with his 80's Infinity IRS setup). OHMYGOD ! The walls in Music Room # 3 simply disappear. Stage width and depth is downright spooky. It sounds about forty feet wide and thirty deep. Instrument localization in all dimensions is extremely specific. One of his favorite imaging recordings is Howard Hanson's "The Composer & His Orchestra" on Mercury. You can clearly hear the acoustic shell of the recording space. Heck, even Madonna's "Ray of Light" sounded magnificent. I was hearing favorite and familiar music really for the first time.

rw

bturk667
02-24-2004, 11:53 AM
Actually it's not Sarah Brightman's Time To Say Goodbye, it's Andrea Bocelli's (Con Te Partiro) from Romanza. In case you were curious.

92135011
02-24-2004, 11:58 AM
Recently, maybe 2 weeks ago, when I went to a HiFi shop to compare the different recievers and integrated amps. Like you, I didnt know what a soundstage was and I don't any one can really be told what it is. It's an absolutely amazing thing when you dont hear just 2 speakers anymore. Music becomes more expressive instead of a string of notes on top of a beat.

I suppose this is the point of no return. When the simple "boombox" cant satisfy anymore. For anyone who hasnt experienced it, remember...its kinda like the matrix. No one can be told what its like. You have to experience it for yourself.

Song that made it all happen: Ron Carter: Spare Change

Wireworm5
02-24-2004, 03:31 PM
What got me primed to become an audiophile was when a friend talked me into getting a better soundcard for playing games on the computer. The enhanced sound effects added immensley to the gaming experienced. I became more keen to sound as a result. The second contributor came after hearing a cheap surround system that sounded better than mine. That's when I realized the importance of having speakers that could play the entire sound spectrum. From there I was always anaylizing the sound and what I could do to improve it. After several upgrades I am satified that I have the best sound possible for my budget. No further upgrades until I fullfill other priorities.

musicman1999
02-24-2004, 03:50 PM
it was a set of jm labs alto utopias,gear by sim audio and conrad johnson,and music by james taylor.it was the first time recorded music had ever got me that close to live music which is what its all about.The labs were the best i had ever heard or have heard since,i was later able to add to my system a complete set of jm labs chorus speakers(bottom of their line,but very fine),love that trickle down technologie.

Geoffcin
02-24-2004, 04:16 PM
I was 13 years old, and my father was putting together a sound system for a doctor friend and let me tag along. We always had a decent hi-fi at my house, but he had, I think, a $5000 budget for the project, and this is going back nearly 30 years. I wish I could remember the name of the speakers, I do remember that it was an all Macintosh setup with these cool blue displays, and HUGE meters. The speakers must have been electrostats, because I remember that my father said to me that he had never heard high frequencies reproduced with such clarity, and I asked him what he was talking about, as it didn't sound much better than our AR's at home. Then he sat me down in the chair that was positioned in the "sweet spot". Even before I got in the chair, just the act of getting lower and the air just seemed to open up with sound. It was as if Carly Simon was in the room singing for me. It felt so real I could almost see her! I was so totally dumbstruck, they had to pry me from the chair. To this day I am chasing that sound. Unfortunelty I don't have 13 year old ears anymore.

This Guy
02-24-2004, 04:51 PM
Here's how I started. I was 12 years old, but loved music all the years before that. I had a casio mini system, but my dad connected his home made amplifier and speakers to it and I was like WOW cause it was really loud. Then I started hearing his system. and thought his subwoofer was awesome (what kid doesn't love that loud thumping bass). That's where I decided to get a new mini system with lots of watts and lots of drivers. Fortunately, I let my dad convince me into buying a home theatre with seperate speakers, amps, and dvd players. After I got a cheap pair of floorstanders from Ubid (great buys, atleast a couple years ago). After I got my dad's spiral horn, I was so happy with that extremly loud bass, but then I realized everything else sucks. That's when I modifed the speakers with new tweeters and midranges. It's much better, but will like to make new speakers soon. I LOVE MUSIC.

-Joey

Woochifer
02-24-2004, 08:46 PM
Probably the first time I heard a direct-to-disc LP played back on a decent system. This was before CDs took over, so at that time it was about as good a playback medium as there was for consumers. The illusion that the musicians were in the room with me was very convincing, and the dynamics on that recording were unapproached by anything I'd heard before. In the years that followed, I attended some high end shows, and direct discs were frequently the playback of choice even after CD players had begun displacing turntables; and hearing some of those recordings on those high end systems was often incredibly convincing.

(For those of you unfamiliar with direct-to-disc LPs, they were recorded entirely live in studio with the two-channel board feed going directly to the mastering lathe. No analog tape or multitracked mixing, it was all done on the fly. The session had to cover an entire album side, with no retakes or restarts possible. If the musicians muffed the last track on the side, they had to junk the whole side and start over.)

I guess my multichannel epiphany was the first time that I saw a movie in 70mm six-track in a THX auditorium. Pre-digital, 70mm prints were the only way to get full bandwidth 5.1 soundtracks, as most theatres were using 35mm optical soundtracks, which had more limited bandwidth than FM radio and was only a two-channel carrier. We now take full range discrete split surround 5.1 for granted, but back then it was an event to hear it. Keep in mind that at that time, the THX designation really meant something, because only a handful of theaters back then were certified and the rigor that went into those early installations was very evident. Most theaters back then had minimal acoustic controls in place, inadequate subwoofers, and incomplete complements of surround speakers, so the THX program addressed a need.

Even though 70mm soundtracks were huge step above the normal 35mm optical presentations, glaring flaws were still audible in the theaters I went to, but the THX presentation was a revelation. Aside from the wow factor of the original THX trailer, that was really the first time that I ever saw a movie where I got the full impact of what surround imaging was capable of, and dialog intelligibility such that I didn't have to ask "what did he say?". It was also the first time that I heard a movie soundtrack with fidelity comparable to a decent home audio system, except that it was in surround sound, which back then was not readily available for home use (stereo TV and hi-fi VCRs were brand new at that time).

Worf101
02-25-2004, 07:58 AM
Probably the first time I heard a direct-to-disc LP played back on a decent system. This was before CDs took over, so at that time it was about as good a playback medium as there was for consumers. The illusion that the musicians were in the room with me was very convincing, and the dynamics on that recording were unapproached by anything I'd heard before. In the years that followed, I attended some high end shows, and direct discs were frequently the playback of choice even after CD players had begun displacing turntables; and hearing some of those recordings on those high end systems was often incredibly convincing.

(For those of you unfamiliar with direct-to-disc LPs, they were recorded entirely live in studio with the two-channel board feed going directly to the mastering lathe. No analog tape or multitracked mixing, it was all done on the fly. The session had to cover an entire album side, with no retakes or restarts possible. If the musicians muffed the last track on the side, they had to junk the whole side and start over.)

I guess my multichannel epiphany was the first time that I saw a movie in 70mm six-track in a THX auditorium. Pre-digital, 70mm prints were the only way to get full bandwidth 5.1 soundtracks, as most theatres were using 35mm optical soundtracks, which had more limited bandwidth than FM radio and was only a two-channel carrier. We now take full range discrete split surround 5.1 for granted, but back then it was an event to hear it. Keep in mind that at that time, the THX designation really meant something, because only a handful of theaters back then were certified and the rigor that went into those early installations was very evident. Most theaters back then had minimal acoustic controls in place, inadequate subwoofers, and incomplete complements of surround speakers, so the THX program addressed a need.

Even though 70mm soundtracks were huge step above the normal 35mm optical presentations, glaring flaws were still audible in the theaters I went to, but the THX presentation was a revelation. Aside from the wow factor of the original THX trailer, that was really the first time that I ever saw a movie where I got the full impact of what surround imaging was capable of, and dialog intelligibility such that I didn't have to ask "what did he say?". It was also the first time that I heard a movie soundtrack with fidelity comparable to a decent home audio system, except that it was in surround sound, which back then was not readily available for home use (stereo TV and hi-fi VCRs were brand new at that time).

Quite interesting that both of your epiphanies involved unusual circumstances. Direct to disk is an interesting footnote in audio history. As a man who's sweated in a recording studio or two in my time the idea of doing an entire album side, cold, one shot, no flubs is daunting to say the least. I also find it fascinating that you remember the birth of THX sound in the theatres. I remember only VOT and Sensurround... after that I stopped paying attention until my home theatre statred sounding better than half the movies I went to.

Da Worfster

Worf101
02-25-2004, 08:00 AM
Worfster, you always come up with cool discussions.

I was in college as well (a prevailing theme I'm sure) and had just received my first bonus check from my internship in Newport Beach. Hey, I'm young and living in the moment so why not blow it all on stereo equipment, right? I went into a local hi-fi shop and they had a Linn Sondek table hooked to a Theta DS Pre/ARC combo pushing Mirage M1's. Remember, back in the late 80's bi-polar speaks were relatively new and exotic. The room was well treated with corner traps and they were playing Phil Wood's "Here's to My Lady." In a word: WOW! Granted, some of it was probably my brain getting accustomed to the bi-polar sound but I'm with you in that I'd never heard a soundstage set up so palpably real. I walked out with a PS Audio 4.6 pre and B&K ST140 amp. While the B&K proved to be dead reliable and a great amp I was thisclose to buying a Counterpoint amp and to this day wonder what it would have been like...

Oh yeah, I also bought that Phil Wood's disc which is front of me as we speak.

This is what I was asking about.. felt great when the light went on didn't it? Now the companion question is will kids "get it" or are they more interested in the "boomin'" system than the detailed system?

David

jack70
02-25-2004, 08:25 AM
Quite interesting that both of your epiphanies involved unusual circumstances. Direct to disk is an interesting footnote in audio history. As a man who's sweated in a recording studio or two in my time the idea of doing an entire album side, cold, one shot, no flubs is daunting to say the least.
It may be a footnote (I still have many of those LPs too), but it should be noted: THAT was the way discs were recorded for decades. 78's were, esentially, direct to disc. This was before tape and the flexibilty tape affords. Essentially they were cut live to disc.

The quality issues of the 78 shellac aside, unplayed (good condition) discs still can sound pretty amazing. Some of the Nimbus series have some of those rare discs played back with thorns as needles, and then edited with state-of-the-art methods for CD Re-mastering. As much as studio/tape wizardry allows for a more "perfect" product, we do miss a bit of the "live" reality that those old recording dates had.

chimera128
02-25-2004, 09:03 AM
I guess it started when I first joined concert band. Hearing all of the instruments coming together and the reverb of the concert hall made me feel like I was part of something special. Unfortunately my family couldn't afford anything of great value. We had a Sharp rack system with two towers. But ever since being in band I wanted to have something at home that could recreate the chills you get from hearing a french horn first hand (that is what I played). I know bipolars aren't for everyone but I first got that chill again listening to a pair of BP2002TL's at a local store. The diffuse sense of sound and localization of the female vocalist ( I don't remember the name of the song) reminded me of how it felt being in the middle of a concert. I decided then to buy the BP7000SCs, C/L/R 3000, BP30s/BP10s. Next on the list is better electronics to drive them.

Woochifer
02-25-2004, 01:12 PM
Quite interesting that both of your epiphanies involved unusual circumstances. Direct to disk is an interesting footnote in audio history. As a man who's sweated in a recording studio or two in my time the idea of doing an entire album side, cold, one shot, no flubs is daunting to say the least. I also find it fascinating that you remember the birth of THX sound in the theatres. I remember only VOT and Sensurround... after that I stopped paying attention until my home theatre statred sounding better than half the movies I went to.

Da Worfster

Ah yes, Sensurround! Last time I looked up this stuff, I read that it was Cerwin Vega that created the special subwoofers for that process, and I think Terrence mentioned that the Sensurround track just activated some bass generating device that plunged the depths to about 10 Hz. Someone else mentioned that watching a movie in Sensurround made them sick because their insides were getting brutalized by the bass. The Chinese Theater in Hollywood apparently sustained some structural damage when they screened "Earthquake" in Sensurround. Heard that they had to suspend a net to keep ceiling fragments from falling onto the audience! Someone also once told me that for the Sensurround screening of "Midway" at the Chinese, they installed air raid sirens in the lobby that went off whenever a battle scene was starting up. Yes, remember when movie going was an event?

THX got hyped up in L.A. where I grew up because the first installation coincided with the premiere of "Return of the Jedi". Even though I saw quite a few films in 70mm, the first time I saw a THX presentation with a 70mm print, it was an eye-opener. One of the theaters I frequented while growing up used VOT screen speakers, and once I snuck a peek behind the screen. I saw those VOT giants propped up on platforms, but it surprised me how much open space there was behind the screen with untreated brick walls. The resulting incoherent reverberation was something that I just got used to over the years. THX, with the acoustic controls in the auditorium plus the required baffle wall built behind the screen speakers, was really the first time I ever went to a movie and understood all the dialog. I do credit them helping to raise the standard for movie theater sound. Nowadays, even rural multiplexes are built with acoustically treated auditoriums, irregardless of whether or not they participate in the THX program.

topspeed
02-25-2004, 02:17 PM
This is what I was asking about.. felt great when the light went on didn't it? Now the companion question is will kids "get it" or are they more interested in the "boomin'" system than the detailed system?

David

I have a feeling they'll figure it out just like we did. Hell, when I was in high school you could hear my Bronco from 3 blocks away! Two 12" Cerwin Vegas, Morel mids and tweets, and a Yamaha deck all pushed by Sanyo amps. boomBooMBOOM!

Now, I don't even use my sub unless I'm watching movies :)

Man, I'm getting old...

topspeed
02-25-2004, 02:21 PM
THX got hyped up in L.A. where I grew up because the first installation coincided with the premiere of "Return of the Jedi". Even though I saw quite a few films in 70mm, the first time I saw a THX presentation with a 70mm print, it was an eye-opener.

Westwood, right? The best THX theaters were always in Westwood and there were like 3 different ones within walking distance. Almost every movie I saw during the latter half of the 80's was there.

zapr
02-25-2004, 05:05 PM
........I've loved music since I was an early teen. My first system was a technics receiver, turntable and a pair of somas( still have turntable & speakers, gave the receiver away, big mistake, would have been great in the garage ). Stayed with technics for my second system which was early surround sound before pro logic. Then it was AR and you guys when I stepped up to yamaha and paradigm a few yrs. back. That's when I noticed something different. I was able to place instruments on stage and noticed a separation between them. After I biwired the speakers (sorry guys) the separation became more so with added air around instruments. Speakers became transparent and for the first time I was hearing the music. The light was on! As far as kids getting it, a lot of todays music leans toward the "boom" but I think they'll be disccussing this someday as we're saying - I remember that :]........Zapr.

Woochifer
02-25-2004, 07:44 PM
Westwood, right? The best THX theaters were always in Westwood and there were like 3 different ones within walking distance. Almost every movie I saw during the latter half of the 80's was there.

Yup, and I was probably in some of those opening night audiences with you. Amazing that Westwood can feature so many world class theaters in such a small area. Living on the westside truly spoiled me! The four THX showcase theatres were the Avco (the original THX installation), Village, Bruin, and National. Until the Avco got chopped in half, all of these theaters featured 800+ seat auditoriums, huge screens, and excellent sound systems.

I knew the manager at one of the smaller theaters in Westwood and got some insights into just how much attention to detail (and fanatical overengineering of the projection, screen, and audio systems) went into the presentation at those theaters. Apparently, Westwood was a favorite spot for studio execs to pop by on a given night and see how a paying audience was reacting to a movie. If the sound wasn't right or the picture out of focus or not bright enough, there was bigtime hell to pay. Aside from fielding irate inquiries from studio higher ups, the theater managers would occasionally even get blamed for negative audience reaction to a particular movie since it would unnecessarily spawn negative word-of-mouth (doesn't matter if it's just a bad movie; less-than-stellar presentation was bad for buzz).

Before moving to San Francisco, I just assumed that the grand old single screen theaters in every big city got the same kind of state-of-the-art retrofitting that the theaters in Westwood got. How wrong I was! I still try to catch movies in Westwood whenever I visit SoCal.

uncooked
02-25-2004, 09:56 PM
well for me it was like a year and a half ago, in the future shop speaker room. i had never heard surround before, but me and my dad were renovating the basement, and wired it all in for 6.1,

anyways went in there and the salesmen put on star wars "the pod racing scene" with a HK amp. like the 530 or something, and athena speakers. and he cranked it. I ALMOST CRAPPED MY PANTS! the best thing i had heard before that was a movie theatre...... and that sounds like complete garbage now. i bought the athena set. and a yamaha receiver. hooked it up in my basement, and it sounds great. ever since that moment i have been completely addicted to audio. since then i have built a 5.1 system in my room "it sounds ok" pretty dam good for me though, it was all my own money. took all of it lol. my mom was pissed for a month or 2. i have also set up neighbours, aunts, uncles, grandparents, parents friends, sisters friends, like they just tell me how much money they want to blow then i pick it all out and set it all and configure it all for them.

i also went to work experience at future shop, and talked to the same guy that sold me my surround and he's shocked how much i have learned in just over a year. i re wired the whole theatre room in future shop in 2 hours. and they hired me there even though im not 18. so far everything is going pretty good, ive still got a bit to learn "thats where this site comes in"

im slowly growing out of the kid way of music "just play it loud who cares about quality" im getting more into it and now realize its not about the volume, its clarity that makes it sound good.

Chuck
02-25-2004, 11:39 PM
I've been in this hobby for some 5 years now. I've always loved music, both in the listening and the playing, but never understood what they were talking about in those stereo magazines. Until coming here, I had no idea what a "soundstage" was except from the recording industry. I used cheap, second hand gear that sounded like mud. Then one day after improving my college dorm gear to a decent amp and mains, I was listening to some modern jazz piece by one of the Marsalis clan...

All of sudden it hit me like a thunderbolt from the blue. The drums were at left center, the horns were dead on at 12:00 and strings and guitar to the right. Other instruments came and went but all had their "place" in the room. I was stunned. I'd never heard music reproduced this way. Mids and highs became more important to me than "bump and thump" and I became a more discerning listener...

I saw the light as it were. When and how did this happen to you?

Da Wondering Worfster :p

The first time I heard a "full-range" audio system was in 1956, and there was no "soundstage" because the system was mono. The sound was a far cry from what we have today, but the multiple-driver system sounded cleaner and had a more extended frequency response (at both ends) than anything I'd heard before. After that I wasn't too fond of most of the muddy little "Hi-Fi" sets that were everywhere.

Stereo "imaging" was quite different. I started out looking for and expecting some kind of convincing imaging, and couldn't find it. The early stereo recordings tended to be more about showing off the fact that there were two speakers, and things like "ping pong" effects were the order of the day. I think I'd pretty much given up on ever creating decent sound with a stereo system before I finally heard a stereo recording that could produce anything like a "sound stage." I don't even remember what the speakers were, or even what the recording was (other than that it was a jazz recording), but I'll never forget the feeling of hearing what was, up to that point, the most "realistic" sound I'd ever heard.

The first time a system took my breath away was sometime around 1970, when I heard the Infinity ServoStatik system at AudioLand in Mt. Clemens Michigan. The recording was Dark Side of the Moon.

The gear I have today is so much better than the best stuff available back then that there is just no comparison, especially when it comes to imaging.

Interesting topic. :)

brigrizzme
02-26-2004, 02:44 PM
1984. I was in a hi-fi shop with my step-dad. I went into the back room and listened to the strangest looking flat speakers - Maggies. They were powered by McIntosh monoblocks and playing, "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road". There was a chair positioned in the perfect sweet spot. I'm certain I've heard systems that compare. But nothing could have penetrated my virgin ears like this. When I returned home I tried to reproduce the sound with my Pioneer system. HA!!

spacedeckman
02-27-2004, 07:12 PM
...a POS Motorola console unit. I found if I sat right in between the two speakers, it sounded really cool...in a two dimensional way.

When I was in college, I went with a girlfriend to her french class party at the professor's place. He had Maggies on some old Mac tubes and a LP12. The Maggies disappeared, everything fell into place, and, although he was a complete novice, had a friend set it up for him. It was incredible, and I was hooked. That was nearly 25 years ago, and I have been on a search for the "truth" ever since.

cam
02-27-2004, 07:53 PM
I was 18 and a friend of a friend had a 1987 iroc z with 2 -15 inch cerwin vega subs. We were drinking beer at a park "pre 19", but anyways, the stereo was on but not relatively loud and a friend told me to go sit in the passenger seat. Right at that moment it was like I had been somewhere I had never been before. The sound just wrapped around me, it was like it was just me and 4 walls of sound. It happened. At the time I owned a 1980 chevy citation "first car" , I installed 2 12 cerwin vega subs with a 400 watt amp. Concord mids and tweets with a 160 watt amp and I was there and never going back. Now I am 33 and it just spilled into my home which has been filled with home theater stuff for the last 6 years. Home theater and music actually runs my life. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if I did not step foot into that iroc z.

Lord Nikon
02-27-2004, 08:22 PM
I was also 18 when I "got it". I had a DSP Pioneer CD Player in my car audio setup. With some "bright" MB Quart speakers and 4 12" subs. Yes, with the bass down I can actually hear the music. :) I was listening to my 'US3' cd. For those those that do not know this cd, it is a jazzy hiphop sort of album. It was about 12 midnight and I was driving home from a date. I just sat back and enjoyed the ride. Now I am much older and have bills and a house and kids and such. So spending $7k+ on a system seems impossible. I'll have to make by with what I am getting.