receiver choice.....

[fudgemik]

i currently have the yamaha rx-v2300 and i have the opportunity to switch to the denon 4802r, do you guys think there would be a difference, i am only leaning towards it because i currently have the denon dvd-2930ci, and thought they would be a better pair.........comments are much appreciated..........

[kexodusc]

i currently have the yamaha rx-v2300 and i have the opportunity to switch to the denon 4802r, do you guys think there would be a difference, i am only leaning towards it because i currently have the denon dvd-2930ci, and thought they would be a better pair.........comments are much appreciated..........
Typically digital source components are far less fussy about who they are paired with. I would be surprised if there was any benefit at all to matching your player to a Denon. Remember, it's the receiver's decoder that wlll do the audio work here (and even those are all fairly close in performance).
The 2300 is a very impressive unit and definitely not out of date by today's standards.
The 4802 was an even bigger beast that competed against Yamaha's larger models. It does have a bit more power, 7.1 and some other gizmos. It is heavy and big. It's a better unit than the 2300 that also cost almost double back in the day.
Will it sound better? That's all up to what you prefer. Some people prefer Denon, some prefer Yamaha. I find their presentations to be very similar now, not the same, but closer than years past. There's no right or wrong. Ideally you'd try it out to see if you like it.
Will it make a huge difference in your systems sound? I doubt it. Might make it a bit better though, if it's not going to break the bank, could be worthwhile.

[ldgibson76]

Hello "fudgemik".

The Denon AVR4802R is without a doubt is a more powerful av receiver than the Yamaha RX-V2300. But it's still old technology. It's a 2002 model. Your Denon DVD2930ci DVD player has HDMI connectivity which means it can upconvert a dvd to 720p or 1080i resolution. Now for video, if you connect your dvd player straight to your monitor or projector via HDMI, and that's only if those components have HDMI capability, then you can take advantage of the superior picture the 2930ci can produce. Routing the 2930 thru the 4802R, you can only do that via component video connections. With Component video, you have no upconversion therefore, you might as well stay with the Yamaha. Why? Because the component video switching is rated at 50 Mhz Bandwidth, 10 less than the Yamaha. The Denon does give you THX; THX Ultra2; 7.1 audio playback, more connections, not to mention 125 watts per channel compared to 110 watts for the Yamaha. If I were you, I'd look to upgrading to a HDMI compatible Receiver. Such as Denon's 2807 or the upcoming 2808 or 3808. That way you can take advantage of the 2930's technology. But that's just me.

[fudgemik]

thanks for the replys..Actually this dvd player will upconvert to 1080p to clear that up ha........i bought that dvd player actually for that cause i have a 1080p tv...Next thing is i was under the impression to always connect your dvd player directly to your tv to give you the best possible picture. Ive been told to never run it through your receiver......So actually i am only using the receiver for audio only......maybe thats an old school way of thinking... thats why i can get the denon, its inexpensive now cause its looked upon as out dated cause of lack of video input..........But if u dont use them......maybe i should?

[pixelthis]

thanks for the replys..Actually this dvd player will upconvert to 1080p to clear that up ha........i bought that dvd player actually for that cause i have a 1080p tv...Next thing is i was under the impression to always connect your dvd player directly to your tv to give you the best possible picture. Ive been told to never run it through your receiver......So actually i am only using the receiver for audio only......maybe thats an old school way of thinking... thats why i can get the denon, its inexpensive now cause its looked upon as out dated cause of lack of video input..........But if u dont use them......maybe i should?
I've had two Denons and two yamahas, always thought Denon rolled off the highs a bit.
The receiver manufacturers want you to think like this, and its balderdash.
my current receiver ran at 1200$, and the "video switching" on it is now totally obsolete,
but who cares? Its still a great receiver, and running the video through the TV
totally negates that small disadvantage
You need to think primarily of your receiver as an audio source, whatever form of HDDVD
you get, blu ray or HDDVD you can get a player with a decoder built in , basically the most important thing about your receiver is how good are the Amps?
Btw for what its worth most modern receivers have the video bandwidth to pass through
HDTV, ESPECIALLY the high end models (70 mhz at least):1:

[PeruvianSkies]

You need to think primarily of your receiver as an audio source, whatever form of HDDVD
you get, blu ray or HDDVD you can get a player with a decoder built in , basically the most important thing about your receiver is how good are the Amps?


I've never heard of anyone giving advice by asking a question ...how good are those amps?

Here's a question...why does Pixelthis ALWAYS have to assign a dollar value to everything that he mentions when it comes to his system??? Hmmm. Are we suppose to be impressed????

[ldgibson76]

Hello Again "fudgemik".
The 4802R was a great receiver in 2002/3. It was a powerhouse in it's day, and using it as primarily an amplifier is not a bad idea at all. Routing the 2930ci hdmi straight to the monitor will no doubt give you the best picture. Now, I have to believe that you will eventually want to experience true 1080P resolution in the future. The price of that technology is coming down rapidly. For instance...the Denon 2930ci is a $700+ dvd player that upconverts to 1080P. Toshiba makes a HD DVD player (HD A20) not only upconverts standard dvds to 1080P, but also transmits a true 1080P signal with HDDVDs for $399.00. Not saying that you made a bad choice in dvd players...hey, I own a 2910. But how does this relate to the Receiver question??? The future of technology! New sound formats are coming....HiDef audio to match the HiDef video. Optical and Coaxial digital does not transmit TrueDolbyHD or DTS HD. And it's available with the upcoming receivers such as....Denon 2808/3808, Yamaha's RX-V3800, Sony's DA5300ES(believe it or not, a very nice choice), Onkyo's 805/875, and of course, the Marantz products 5002/6002/7002/. All of these receivers have the ability to pass 1080P and some even upconvert to 1080P. There's alot out there to choose from. I'd go with something that will give you the ability to be compatible with the future. Take it from some one who knows. I have a Marantz SR9300. Great receiver, old technology. I currently use an HDMI switcher. How I wish I would have waited and purchased a current model. But that's just me.

[fudgemik]

thanks for the reply, but i did purchase the denon dvd on the whole idea of getting the best possible dvd only, i am waiting to see about the format war, who wins , then i will purchase a hi def player but that will be down the road.......but you say they are making advances in the audio, very interesting, i assume the hdmi cable you are referring will carry the signal. I wish they would quit upgrading the hdmi signal already...heck they are already telling me my sony xbr2 tv has the older hdmi...gggggggeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz.. .

[L.J.]

thanks for the reply, but i did purchase the denon dvd on the whole idea of getting the best possible dvd only, i am waiting to see about the format war, who wins , then i will purchase a hi def player but that will be down the road.......but you say they are making advances in the audio, very interesting, i assume the hdmi cable you are referring will carry the signal. I wish they would quit upgrading the hdmi signal already...heck they are already telling me my sony xbr2 tv has the older hdmi...gggggggeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzz.. .

As long as your AVR has 5.1 or 7.1(I have a 5.1 setup, so 7.1 isn't that important to me right now) analog inputs your fine. Just pick up a HD player in the future that can decode all the new formats and send it via analog outputs.

[musicman1999]

The new sound formats are not coming,they are here.Follow L.J.'s advice the analog ins and outs will give you full access to high def audio.

bill

[ldgibson76]

The new sound formats are not coming,they are here.Follow L.J.'s advice the analog ins and outs will give you full access to high def audio.

bill

Yes, you can use the analog multi-channel inputs but please read the contents of the attached webpage (http://www.dvdreview.com/html/road_to_hidef_2.html). HDMI v1.3 is the primary way of experiencing the new audio formats. "Fudgemik"! Trust me on this....Digital is the way to go! The new formats are completely uncompressed signals. I have personally heard the difference. The individuals that suggest that using the analog connection inputs will give you the same playback quality as the HDMI connection have no idea what they're talking about. But they are entitled to their opinions. I'm not telling you for forego your Denon 2930ci DVD Player. No doubt, it's an excellent dvd player with 1080P unpconverting....but that's not the real deal. I know how you feel. I purchased a Denon 2910 and it upconverts to 720P/1080i. And now it's been demoted to SACD and DVD-A playback. Why? Because I've seen HD DVD at 1080P resolution. After seeing true 1080P and hearing TDHD, it's a no brainer. I will be purchasing a Toshiba HD A35. You'll see . Six months to a year from now, True DolbyHD and DTS HD will be all you'll hear about. It will be the standard. not to mention(Dolby Digital Plus). I actually work in the industry. We beta test new technologies all the time and I'm telling you HiDef audio is a completely different level of sound. And once you hear it, you won't want to go back to standard DD or DTS.
If you purhase the Denon AVR4802R....in six months, you will be kicking yourself. Probably for a few hundred dollars more, you'll be able to get the newest technology.
Which ever way you go, Good luck!

[fudgemik]

well put,.................so should i buy a blu ray or hd-dvd? I'm gonna wait till these 2 pan out and by then i will get a new receiver, they should drop a little by then, hopefully..........ur probably right, im gonna wait a bit............

[musicman1999]

Yes, you can use the analog multi-channel inputs but please read the contents of the attached webpage (http://www.dvdreview.com/html/road_to_hidef_2.html). HDMI v1.3 is the primary way of experiencing the new audio formats. "Fudgemik"! Trust me on this....Digital is the way to go! The new formats are completely uncompressed signals. I have personally heard the difference. The individuals that suggest that using the analog connection inputs will give you the same playback quality as the HDMI connection have no idea what they're talking about. But they are entitled to their opinions. I'm not telling you for forego your Denon 2930ci DVD Player. No doubt, it's an excellent dvd player with 1080P unpconverting....but that's not the real deal. I know how you feel. I purchased a Denon 2910 and it upconverts to 720P/1080i. And now it's been demoted to SACD and DVD-A playback. Why? Because I've seen HD DVD at 1080P resolution. After seeing true 1080P and hearing TDHD, it's a no brainer. I will be purchasing a Toshiba HD A35. You'll see . Six months to a year from now, True DolbyHD and DTS HD will be all you'll hear about. It will be the standard. not to mention(Dolby Digital Plus). I actually work in the industry. We beta test new technologies all the time and I'm telling you HiDef audio is a completely different level of sound. And once you hear it, you won't want to go back to standard DD or DTS.
If you purhase the Denon AVR4802R....in six months, you will be kicking yourself. Probably for a few hundred dollars more, you'll be able to get the newest technology.
Which ever way you go, Good luck!
You need to be aware that DTS and DD are methods of compression,so calling them "completely uncompressed"is not true.Losslessly compressed would be.As for the digital or analog question,an uncompressed pcm file is compressed to a smaller file size by the DTS or DD algorithim,but it is the same file only smaller,thus not taking up as much disc space.Then the decoder unpacks the file and plays it back.You don't need a reciever to decode this signals,infact most hidef players don't even output it properly and hd-dvd players don't output interactive feature audio for outboard decoding,has to be done in the player.

bill

[L.J.]

Yes, you can use the analog multi-channel inputs but please read the contents of the attached webpage (http://www.dvdreview.com/html/road_to_hidef_2.html). HDMI v1.3 is the primary way of experiencing the new audio formats. "Fudgemik"! Trust me on this....Digital is the way to go! The new formats are completely uncompressed signals. I have personally heard the difference. The individuals that suggest that using the analog connection inputs will give you the same playback quality as the HDMI connection have no idea what they're talking about. But they are entitled to their opinions. I'm not telling you for forego your Denon 2930ci DVD Player. No doubt, it's an excellent dvd player with 1080P unpconverting....but that's not the real deal. I know how you feel. I purchased a Denon 2910 and it upconverts to 720P/1080i. And now it's been demoted to SACD and DVD-A playback. Why? Because I've seen HD DVD at 1080P resolution. After seeing true 1080P and hearing TDHD, it's a no brainer. I will be purchasing a Toshiba HD A35. You'll see . Six months to a year from now, True DolbyHD and DTS HD will be all you'll hear about. It will be the standard. not to mention(Dolby Digital Plus). I actually work in the industry. We beta test new technologies all the time and I'm telling you HiDef audio is a completely different level of sound. And once you hear it, you won't want to go back to standard DD or DTS.
If you purhase the Denon AVR4802R....in six months, you will be kicking yourself. Probably for a few hundred dollars more, you'll be able to get the newest technology.
Which ever way you go, Good luck!

From Doldy:

"Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus in A/V Receivers
Eventually, A/V receivers will have direct access to Dolby® Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD bitstreams. We are working with the IEC and HDMI organizations to update data protocols to enable future versions of these high-bandwidth interfaces to carry these bitstreams.

To decode these bitstreams, the A/V decoder will need to support the updated data protocols, as well as incorporate these new decoding algorithms. In addition, it will be necessary to select HD discs in which the content maker has permitted the core 5.1 or 7.1 audio bitstreams to bypass the player’s mixing process and be sent directly to the digital outputs of the player. We expect that certain HD discs will permit this, but they may represent a minority of titles. In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver."
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_3.html

Also take a look at this:

"Current HDMI allows 8 channels of 96/24 PCM to be transmitted (more than enough resolution for any soundtrack), but not the new codecs in their native form. When HDMI 1.3 arrives, it will allow the new codecs mentioned above to be transmitted in their native bitstream, but only if they were authored in 'Basic' mode (no interactivity). If the soundtrack was authored in Advanced mode, then it cannot be transmitted in undecoded form; decoding in the player is mandatory because of live mixing.

So far, all HD DVD soundtracks have been authored in Advanced mode. Which means nothing will change when new receivers arrive on the market. Despite having HDMI 1.3 transmission and decoders built into the receiver, decoding will still have to take place in the player.

Currently, Blu-ray discs are authored in Basic mode, since they haven't gotten interactivity yet. As soon as BD Java is up and working, they'll all be authored in Advanced mode too. At that point, what are the decoders in the receivers going to do? Decode the relatively few BD titles that were released before interactivity? Most of those titles will be re-issued anyway."


http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ/High-Def_FAQ:_Is_HDMI_1.3_Really_Necessary/853

and this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994

[fudgemik]

so the bottom line is keep my sony xbr2 tv with outdated hdmi and keep my yamaha rx-v2300 receiver that doesnt have hi-def audio and keep my denon 2930ci dvd player that doesnt play hi-def discs................till all this **** settles............im gonna go shoot myself, j/k........................

[L.J.]

so the bottom line is keep my sony xbr2 tv with outdated hdmi and keep my yamaha rx-v2300 receiver that doesnt have hi-def audio and keep my denon 2930ci dvd player that doesnt play hi-def discs................till all this **** settles............im gonna go shoot myself, j/k........................

If your happy with the performance of all your gear.....why not?

Save yourself some $$$$ and upgrade to a HD or BR player when your ready :wink5:

[ldgibson76]

If your happy with the performance of all your gear.....why not?

Save yourself some $$$$ and upgrade to a HD or BR player when your ready :wink5:

Yes "fudgemik", this sh*t can become very confusing. You're not hurting yourself staying with what you have. Technology will eventually dictate change...but until then, enjoy what you have. The Denon DVD2930ci is an awesome dvd player. Because of all of the firmware updates needed for both formats, I'm not making the move until either one of the formats are perfected. As far as receivers go...I really don't think any of the manufacturers will ever be on the same page. I speak with manufacturer reps all the time and they don't even know what's going on from one day to the next.
And L. J., thanks for the piece from Dolby Labs. A learning experience no doubt....I've learned that Dolby is just as confused as everyone else out there.
:idea:

[ldgibson76]

From Doldy:

"Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus in A/V Receivers
Eventually, A/V receivers will have direct access to Dolby® Digital Plus or Dolby TrueHD bitstreams. We are working with the IEC and HDMI organizations to update data protocols to enable future versions of these high-bandwidth interfaces to carry these bitstreams.

To decode these bitstreams, the A/V decoder will need to support the updated data protocols, as well as incorporate these new decoding algorithms. In addition, it will be necessary to select HD discs in which the content maker has permitted the core 5.1 or 7.1 audio bitstreams to bypass the player’s mixing process and be sent directly to the digital outputs of the player. We expect that certain HD discs will permit this, but they may represent a minority of titles. In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver."
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_3.html

Also take a look at this:

"Current HDMI allows 8 channels of 96/24 PCM to be transmitted (more than enough resolution for any soundtrack), but not the new codecs in their native form. When HDMI 1.3 arrives, it will allow the new codecs mentioned above to be transmitted in their native bitstream, but only if they were authored in 'Basic' mode (no interactivity). If the soundtrack was authored in Advanced mode, then it cannot be transmitted in undecoded form; decoding in the player is mandatory because of live mixing.

So far, all HD DVD soundtracks have been authored in Advanced mode. Which means nothing will change when new receivers arrive on the market. Despite having HDMI 1.3 transmission and decoders built into the receiver, decoding will still have to take place in the player.

Currently, Blu-ray discs are authored in Basic mode, since they haven't gotten interactivity yet. As soon as BD Java is up and working, they'll all be authored in Advanced mode too. At that point, what are the decoders in the receivers going to do? Decode the relatively few BD titles that were released before interactivity? Most of those titles will be re-issued anyway."


http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ/High-Def_FAQ:_Is_HDMI_1.3_Really_Necessary/853

and this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994

Hello L. J.

I want to thank you for the education. After reading your post regarding "Dolby TrueHD", I did some additional research and I stand corrected. I have a better understanding of the process. I still think that HDMI is the more efficient connection. Multi-channel input is a PITA! 6 analog cables.....I know HDMI is no picnic either with all of the different standards, but one cable instead of six, has it's benefits. And let's not forget the video aspect. Again, thank you for the education.

ldgibson76

[pixelthis]

I've never heard of anyone giving advice by asking a question ...how good are those amps?

Here's a question...why does Pixelthis ALWAYS have to assign a dollar value to everything that he mentions when it comes to his system??? Hmmm. Are we suppose to be impressed????
I assign a dollar value to my gear so the people I adress will know where I am coming from, in this paticular case I was pointing out that if you chase such things as
video switching in stereo receivers you will be chasing a long time, my receiver was pretty
nice when I got it, with componet switching, which was totally out of date when I first saw
a HDMI connection.
However I am not throwing out a decent receiver just because it doesnt have proper video switching, as the amps still are some of the best for the price.
And if anybody is "impressed" with my low to midline gear then they dont know much,
but my system is the best that current conditions allow.
Not that price matters that much, as your system represents.
A "ten k " system such as your system, put together by one who really doesnt know as much as he thinks, is going to just as, if not more, handicapped that a more modest system put together by someone who knows what hes doing.
Thats an insult, BTW:ihih:

[PeruvianSkies]

A "ten k " system such as your system, put together by one who really doesnt know as much as he thinks, is going to just as, if not more, handicapped that a more modest system put together by someone who knows what hes doing.
Thats an insult, BTW:ihih:

Thanks for letting me know that was an insult...otherwise I wouldn't have known that because it was lame. btw...that was an insult back at you!

Please enlighten me though on how my current system could be improved upon with all of your experience... What mistakes did I make? Since you know what you are doing and I am not even sure what any of this stuff does...please enlighten me.