Thoughts on my 805 situation

[L.J.]

Well if you've read my small review on the new Onkyo 805 (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=23134) you'd know that it's a very solid unit but has a few minor "issues". The 805 does everything it promises, but these hiccups are kinda annoying.

I'm on my 2nd unit and both have had these same issues:
Runs very hot, but it's never gone into protect mode or anything
Slight popping or thud sound coming from various speakers during HDMI handshake with PS3
Slight audio sync issue - hard to say if it's the 805 or if certain cable channels are just off a bit.
3 to 4 second delay when processing audio signals

The biggest headache for me is the speaker thud/popping sound that comes from my speakers during the handshake. I just keep it on pause until the movie has started to deal with it.

I got this unit for only $700. Anything else coming close is gonna be a huge jump in price and a bunch of features I don't care about. I'm more concerned about SQ than anything else and I'd be willing to spend the extra $$$ if I could find a huge improvement there.

So here's my question. If you were in a similar situation, would you keep the unit you got for an excellent price and performed well, even though you had to live with it's flaws?

Or would you demand flawless performance and pay the extra $$$ to have it?

[kexodusc]

Well if you've read my small review on the new Onkyo 805 (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=23134) you'd know that it's a very solid unit but has a few minor "issues". The 805 does everything it promises, but these hiccups are kinda annoying.

I'm on my 2nd unit and both have had these same issues:
Runs very hot, but it's never gone into protect mode or anything
Slight popping or thud sound coming from various speakers during HDMI handshake with PS3
Slight audio sync issue - hard to say if it's the 805 or if certain cable channels are just off a bit.
3 to 4 second delay when processing audio signals

The biggest headache for me is the speaker thud/popping sound that comes from my speakers during the handshake. I just keep it on pause until the movie has started to deal with it.

[QUOTE=L.J.] I got this unit for only $700. Anything else coming close is gonna be a huge jump in price and a bunch of features I don't care about. I'm more concerned about SQ than anything else and I'd be willing to spend the extra $$$ if I could find a huge improvement there.
If sound quality is your first priority, you know what I'm going to say - I'd sooner downgrade the receiver to the minimum connections/features you need and spend the difference in some quality amplification, if that's possible.


So here's my question. If you were in a similar situation, would you keep the unit you got for an excellent price and performed well, even though you had to live with it's flaws?

Or would you demand flawless performance and pay the extra $$$ to have it?

I dunno L.J. One thing I'll say - if you aren't 100% convinced that this unit is the right one for you by now, and the thought of any other model doesn't just seem silly to you, maybe it's not such a bad idea to take a pass. Maybe in a few months the competition will have some better prices on their comparable models? You're going to spend a lot of time with whatever you end up with.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when it comes to audio/HT gear, there's always a piece or two that really jump out at me and feel right. It usually doesn't take very long either. If your'e looking for a reason to dump this thing and can't talk yourself into getting rid of it, then it's probably the right model for you.

[Rich-n-Texas]

You're five weeks into this audition now right? How much time do you have left on the return? You could hold out with it then see what else is available.

If you had the volume set high, and forgot to pause the PS3, what are the chances that the thud could damage the sub? I don't know how many times I've forgotten to turn it down before switching input sources and I always fear that I've damaged a speaker.

But I agree with Kex... if you're not 100% happy with it, keep shopping. Besides, you're loaded! :ihih:

[kelsci]

Hi L.J.; the big unknown at this moment is whether other brands of receivers in the league with your Onkyo will or will not display the same problems at any price.

[L.J.]

You're five weeks into this audition now right? How much time do you have left on the return? You could hold out with it then see what else is available.

If you had the volume set high, and forgot to pause the PS3, what are the chances that the thud could damage the sub? I don't know how many times I've forgotten to turn it down before switching input sources and I always fear that I've damaged a speaker.

But I agree with Kex... if you're not 100% happy with it, keep shopping. Besides, you're loaded! :ihih:

I have about 10 days left. Yes I have forgot to turn the volume down a couple of times and have had a pretty loud sound come from the speakers. Kinda scary but I've been careful since then. I plan on exchanging this unit for a third to buy myself a little more time. Perhaps I'll end up with one that has no popping going on.

My problem is amount you pay for no real improvements in sound quality. Take the 805/875. They both share the same manual and are pretty much the same unit, except the 875 has better video processing. Not worth the $500-$600 difference in price if you ask me.

[L.J.]

Hi L.J.; the big unknown at this moment is whether other brands of receivers in the league with your Onkyo will or will not display the same problems at any price.

This HDMI crap is really pissing me off. Perhaps Onkyo just rushed there units out so they could be the first ones with 1.3. I will have to audition a few other, but not the 875, it has the same issues as the 805.

[L.J.]

If sound quality is your first priority, you know what I'm going to say - I'd sooner downgrade the receiver to the minimum connections/features you need and spend the difference in some quality amplification, if that's possible.

I knew you were gonna say that :cornut:

[Woochifer]

Tough dilemma you got there!

Some of these issues you noted, like a delay before the receiver picks up the audio track, also accompanied some of the early digital 5.1 receivers.

For the popping, I would check and see if any sources other than your PS3 create this (that is, if you have other sources that can be output in multichannel PCM audio). If so, then it's obviously an issue with your receiver. If not, then it might be a problem particular to the PS3. In that case, you should let Sony know so that they might find a workaround, since Sony has more firmware updates coming for the PS3.

Apple recently patched OS X to fix a similar audio problem, and my receiver similarly produces a popping sound whenever I play a DTS music CD (these are the discs not burned onto DVD discs).

I wouldn't be too concerned about the receiver running hot -- a lot of other receivers do the same thing.

In the end, I guess my question would be, do you still have your old receiver?

[L.J.]

Tough dilemma you got there!

Some of these issues you noted, like a delay before the receiver picks up the audio track, also accompanied some of the early digital 5.1 receivers.

For the popping, I would check and see if any sources other than your PS3 create this (that is, if you have other sources that can be output in multichannel PCM audio). If so, then it's obviously an issue with your receiver. If not, then it might be a problem particular to the PS3. In that case, you should let Sony know so that they might find a workaround, since Sony has more firmware updates coming for the PS3.

Apple recently patched OS X to fix a similar audio problem, and my receiver similarly produces a popping sound whenever I play a DTS music CD (these are the discs not burned onto DVD discs).

I wouldn't be too concerned about the receiver running hot -- a lot of other receivers do the same thing.

In the end, I guess my question would be, do you still have your old receiver?

People over at AVS are having this issue with other sources besides the PS3. I read something about a Toshiba HD player, don't remember which model. But if it is the PS3 wouldn't it happen with every HDMI AVR? Some have noted that this only happened with the new Onkyo's and not their previous HDMI 1.1/1.2 AVRs.

[Woochifer]

People over at AVS are having this issue with other sources besides the PS3. I read something about a Toshiba HD player, don't remember which model. But if it is the PS3 wouldn't it happen with every HDMI AVR? Some have noted that this only happened with the new Onkyo's and not their previous HDMI 1.1/1.2 AVRs.

Hmmm!

Sounds like a design related problem. Have you written to Onkyo about this? I know that they've made some flash-upgradeable receivers in the past, and if a fix is needed for the 805 (or already available for that matter) maybe they can find a remedy for you. Otherwise, it might be wise to return the receiver and wait until they get the bugs out, or check into other models without these problems.

As for the PS3, does this popping happen with every audio format, or just with uncompressed PCM, or just with other formats? If it happens on all formats, then I would guess that it's a design flaw with the Onkyo. Wouldn't be the first time that a receiver manufacturer has had issues with an early production model.

Tough to figure out whether this problem affects other HDMI receivers, given that the Onkyos were the first out the gate with TrueHD, DTS-HD, and DD Plus decoding. But, if other HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 receivers can decode multichannel PCM tracks output from a PS3 without the popping, and your receiver cannot, then it's obviously a problem specific to your model.

[L.J.]

Sounds like a design related problem. Have you written to Onkyo about this? I know that they've made some flash-upgradeable receivers in the past, and if a fix is needed for the 805 (or already available for that matter) maybe they can find a remedy for you. Otherwise, it might be wise to return the receiver and wait until they get the bugs out, or check into other models without these problems. I have not talked to them personally but Onkyo is aware of the problem. If I'm not mistaken, they blamed the PS3. Funny thing is the AVR comes with a little piece of paper that clearly states a sound may be heard from the speakers while playing BR or HD disc and it says this is normal and not a malfunction.

Some are reporting no popping sounds at all, so who knows :confused5:



As for the PS3, does this popping happen with every audio format, or just with uncompressed PCM, or just with other formats? If it happens on all formats, then I would guess that it's a design flaw with the Onkyo. Wouldn't be the first time that a receiver manufacturer has had issues with an early production model. It onlt happens with uncompressed PCM, during the initial handshake. Once the signall is locked in, everything is OK. This becomes annoying with BR discs since there are multiple handshakes before the movie starts.

[brulaha]

I know these issues are preventing me from buying one. On paper, this piece of equipment can't be beat for the price/feature set. However, in practice, there are too many reports of nagging problems (albeit small) for me to pick one up.

I know I want to be 100% happy with any purchase I make, and these issues would not make me happy, especially the thumping/popping noises that could potentially damage expensive speakers.

I would return it and wait. Perhaps Denon's offerings will be better, or perhaps Onkyo can iron these issues out in next years line up. Until then, I know I'll be in a holding pattern.

[bobsticks]

Hey L.J.

Early on I read something to the effect of "make each purchase a definable step up in quality" which I take as a cautionary tale against buying something just 'cause you can. You know I'm in the same boat as you are regarding processing needsand I'm choosing to wait for the real deal. If you're already nitpicking about the bride's feet and the honeymoon aint even over....

Peace

[L.J.]

Well I'm officially done with the 805. I picked up a 3rd......that's right 3rd unit and not only does this one have all the same issues as the first 2 but the video signal on this one has dropped a couple a times. Very, very nice unit, but plagued with too many issues.

I found a Denon 987/2807 (http://reviews.cnet.com/av-receivers/denon-avr-2807/4505-6466_7-31660758.html?tag=prod.txt.1) on clearance at Frys for $563 :) I'll give this unit a try and hopefully all will go well. I can still listen to uncompressed PCM and TrueHD tracks with my PS3 so 1.1 will work out fine right now.

[kelsci]

Hi L.J.; I think you made a great choice. I read the review on C-NET. Guttenburg and Falcone are excellent and experienced audio people. I listened to Denon's in surround sound last December in some stores and found their performance to be superb. It might have to do with that Sharc 32 bit processor that they deploy in their receivers. The good thing that I have noticed with Blue Ray is that many discs come with the uncompressed PCM channels. I personally am not sure how this audio is outputted to a receiver; meaning whether it can travel through the standard toslink/coaxial cables we generally use for listening to multi-channel sound from regular dvd players, or whether that audio can only be reproduce from an hdmi cable from the BD player to the receiver. The price is great I believe for this well rated unit. Good luck. Let us know how it works and sounds once you have analyzed its performance.

[L.J.]

Hi L.J.; I think you made a great choice. I read the review on C-NET. Guttenburg and Falcone are excellent and experienced audio people. I listened to Denon's in surround sound last December in some stores and found their performance to be superb. It might have to do with that Sharc 32 bit processor that they deploy in their receivers. The good thing that I have noticed with Blue Ray is that many discs come with the uncompressed PCM channels. I personally am not sure how this audio is outputted to a receiver; meaning whether it can travel through the standard toslink/coaxial cables we generally use for listening to multi-channel sound from regular dvd players, or whether that audio can only be reproduce from an hdmi cable from the BD player to the receiver. The price is great I believe for this well rated unit. Good luck. Let us know how it works and sounds once you have analyzed its performance.

With the PS3 (no analog outs), HDMI 1.1 AVR or up is the only way to listen to the uncompressed pcm tracks. If the BR/HD player has analog outs and can handle all the decoding, there is really no need to go with HDMI and current AVRs with MC inputs is all that's needed. Standard toslink/coaxial can only handle 2 channel PCM.

[GMichael]

With the PS3 (no analog outs), HDMI 1.1 AVR or up is the only way to listen to the uncompressed pcm tracks. If the BR/HD player has analog outs and can handle all the decoding, there is really no need to go with HDMI and current AVRs with MC inputs is all that's needed. Standard toslink/coaxial can only handle 2 channel PCM.

You've had better luck with Denon anyhow. Let us know how it works out.
Be sure to get something that will drive those new Mini's you plan on buying.

[L.J.]

You've had better luck with Denon anyhow. Let us know how it works out.
Be sure to get something that will drive those new Mini's you plan on buying.

Toying with the idea of a used 5 channel amp actually.

[GMichael]

Toying with the idea of a used 5 channel amp actually.

I'm thinking, a 2 channel amp for just the mains with music. The 5 channel comes later.
Which ones are on the chopping block for you?

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'll buy your 5 channel tomorrow GM. Tomorrow's payday! :biggrin5:

[L.J.]

Got the 987 hooked up but not calibrated yet. So far so good.

No speaker pops at all. Something else that's interesting is my 2910 no longer skips while using the HDMI video output. If anyone remembers this thread (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=23334), I had to turn the video on my 2910 off to stop CD's from skipping while hooked to the 805. Strange, it all works just fine with the Denon. Not a bad buy for $563. It seems like a toy compared to the Onkyo though. The 805 is a freakin' beast. Too bad it has all those issues.

GM, not sure about the amp yet. May go with a 2 chan. but not sure. Been hearing alot about Emotiva though.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I think I'm going to take Kex's advice and stick with an up-to-date Yamaha with pre-outs.

L.J., did you take any hits $$$ wise while going back & forth with CC and these Onkyo's? (i.e. restocking fees?) That would suck.

[L.J.]

I think I'm going to take Kex's advice and stick with an up-to-date Yamaha with pre-outs.

L.J., did you take any hits $$$ wise while going back & forth with CC and these Onkyo's? (i.e. restocking fees?) That would suck.

No restocking fee :)

I agree with Kex's advice as well. The 987 for the price I got is everything I need and leaves a little room for a used external amp.

[Rich-n-Texas]

That's good. I was going to say I'd take up a collection for your expert reviews (i.e. consulting fee) to offset the store fees.

Well, maybe not but we do appreciate your efforts just the same. :thumbsup: :biggrin5:

[bobsticks]

So what's next L.J.? With the Denon and mid-level Onkyos out where do ya go from here? I have been trying to convince myself into looking at some of the hi-level Onks but it just seem likes a waste to spend that much extra for wattage I'll never use, especially with no guarantee of improved processing. That constant law of trade-offs...

[L.J.]

So what's next L.J.? With the Denon and mid-level Onkyos out where do ya go from here? I have been trying to convince myself into looking at some of the hi-level Onks but it just seem likes a waste to spend that much extra for wattage I'll never use, especially with no guarantee of improved processing. That constant law of trade-offs...

Not sure....maybe the Pioneer Elite 91TXH. It seems that both Onkyo and Integra have similar issues with speaker popping. No HDMI problems with the Denon 2807 or Yamaha 661 I tried out. Not sure what's up with Onkyo but they say it's normal. If they do get it figured out, I'd pick up another 805 and be done with it.

The Denon 2808 has been delayed until Sept. and the 3808 is pushing it with that $1599 price tag. Although I heard it was selling for about $1299 online, I don't wanna deal with that hassle. Yamaha should have the 1800/2800 out in a few months but I may have found a unit I like (and functions correctly) by then.

[GMichael]

I'll buy your 5 channel tomorrow GM. Tomorrow's payday! :biggrin5:

OK, which one are you going to get me? The Halo A51 is on sale for under $3k if you can swing it.
I'll never forget you for this Tex. Thanks. You da man!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Forget it pal! You just got new toys. Now it's my turn!!!

What're ya gonna buy me L.J.? I surely could use that Harmony 890 remote.

[kelsci]

Hi L.J. If you did try out the Yamaha 661, how did the unit play in stereo and in surround mode? If the Pioneer Elite 91 has the same amplfication as the 81 you might want to give it a whirl. When I was in a store last winter looking at receivers the Elite 81 along with Denons, Sonys and Yamahas were hooked up to a digital server playing stereo. Never did I hear such garbage from the others and such finesse from the 81. In one store, I said to the salesmen that the dam thing sounded like it was made by MacIntosh. I cannot attest to the quality of the surround sound from the 81 for that part was not hooked up. Perhaps you can find a good deal on an Elite 81 although perhaps you are intending to future proof yourself as much as possible. The Onkyos would have done that but there is no excuse for a receiver to act the way it did. What pisses me off is the confusion that I am getting on both high defintion dvd formats as to what kind of audio is outputted over what connections and what each machine does when it senses a particular codec. From what I have read, there is no machines outputting a bitstream over any kind of cables (hdmi-opt-coax) of DTS MASTER and DOLBY MASTER AUDIO. Some Blu-Ray discs have DTS-HD master audio but I believe there is not any machine that decodes that to output out of any analog 5.1 outputs if the machine has those outputs. If the machines do not send a DTS-HD Master bitstream, then your new receiver's chips have nothing to decode there either. Damm, what a mess.

[GMichael]

Forget it pal! You just got new toys. Now it's my turn!!!

What're ya gonna buy me L.J.? I surely could use that Harmony 890 remote.

But you offered.
:sad:

[Rich-n-Texas]

But you offered.
:sad:
:17: <===== Hardly ever get to use that one! :biggrin5:

[GMichael]

:17: <===== Hardly ever get to use that one! :biggrin5:

No problem. Eventually you'll need to sleep. Now, where did I leave that Crazy glu?

:eek:

[L.J.]

Hi L.J. If you did try out the Yamaha 661, how did the unit play in stereo and in surround mode? Not a bad unit for $400 - $499. Sounds very neutral to me. Does not have the smoothness or the depth of the Onkyo, but I'm still kinda shocked at how good this unit sounds. It would not be an improvement over my 2805 though. Haven't had a chance to do any real surround listening yet, but I did watch a little bit of Pirates 1 uncompressed PCM track. Sounded OK. I haven't ran the room correction yet so maybe improvement could be made.


If the Pioneer Elite 91 has the same amplfication as the 81 you might want to give it a whirl. When I was in a store last winter looking at receivers the Elite 81 along with Denons, Sonys and Yamahas were hooked up to a digital server playing stereo. Never did I hear such garbage from the others and such finesse from the 81. In one store, I said to the salesmen that the dam thing sounded like it was made by MacIntosh. I cannot attest to the quality of the surround sound from the 81 for that part was not hooked up. Perhaps you can find a good deal on an Elite 81 although perhaps you are intending to future proof yourself as much as possible. Going to pick the 91 up tonight. Magnolia only has 2 left so hopefully they let me put one on hold. I'm looking at HDMI 1.1 and up so there are lots of options available.


The Onkyos would have done that but there is no excuse for a receiver to act the way it did. Onkyo has a few issues to take care of. I just don't know if a note saying "this popping sound is not a malfuntion" is gonna be enough for everyone. It wasn't for me and I really liked the 805 :( Perhaps they'll release a firmware upgrade :)



What pisses me off is the confusion that I am getting on both high defintion dvd formats as to what kind of audio is outputted over what connections and what each machine does when it senses a particular codec. From what I have read, there is no machines outputting a bitstream over any kind of cables (hdmi-opt-coax) of DTS MASTER and DOLBY MASTER AUDIO. Some Blu-Ray discs have DTS-HD master audio but I believe there is not any machine that decodes that to output out of any analog 5.1 outputs if the machine has those outputs. If the machines do not send a DTS-HD Master bitstream, then your new receiver's chips have nothing to decode there either. Damm, what a mess.

Yup, that's why I opened up my options to HDMI 1.1 avr's and up. I have uncompressed PCM and TrueHD covered using the PS3. I can live without DTSMA. I don't think alot of BR support this yet anyway. Uncompressed PCM seems to be getting alot of support lately though.

[L.J.]

Forget it pal! You just got new toys. Now it's my turn!!!

What're ya gonna buy me L.J.? I surely could use that Harmony 890 remote.

Hey, you and GM are they ones with all the $$$$$ with your fancy setups and what not :incazzato:

[musicman1999]

Yup, that's why I opened up my options to HDMI 1.1 avr's and up. I have uncompressed PCM and TrueHD covered using the PS3. I can live without DTSMA. I don't think alot of BR support this yet anyway. Uncompressed PCM seems to be getting alot of support lately though.

I just want to make sure i understand this about the new formats:
best-uncompressed pcm --just takes up to much disc space.
next DTS-MA--same as uncompressed pcm except uses lossless compression to save disc space.
DD truehd--same as above,dolby version
next DD+,DTS version. lossy version of uncompressed.

Seems to be a lot of confusion on this,also where decoding is and should be done.
Is this about right?

bill

[L.J.]

I just want to make sure i understand this about the new formats:
best-uncompressed pcm --just takes up to much disc space.
next DTS-MA--same as uncompressed pcm except uses lossless compression to save disc space.
DD truehd--same as above,dolby version
next DD+,DTS version. lossy version of uncompressed.

Seems to be a lot of confusion on this,also where decoding is and should be done.
Is this about right?

bill

Yes this sounds about right, although I'm not 100%. I understand about as much as you guys do. Where's Wooch at when you need him? :ciappa:

There was a thread at AVS breaking all this down and it was giving me a headache. I think the studios are confused as well. It dosen't make sense why uncompressed PCM and TrueHD tracks are showing up on the same disc. 300 or Ghost Rider for example.

DTS suggests using a BR or HD player that can output the bitstream to a 1.3 avr for decoding.
http://www.dtsonline.com/media/2007/DTS_5.jpg

Dolby says these discs that do allow the signal to leave the player may be few, so who knows. Those that are patient should probably what for a player that can fully decode all formats and output over MC analog outs.

[musicman1999]

I did read somewhere that to make use of the bluray-java features,audio decoding and mixing must take place in player and can then be output to the reciever by analog or hdmi.It seems to me that keeping it simple is the way to go,i have a good quality processor and if i could feed it from a good blueray player with good quality decoders thru analog inputs i would buy one.

bill

[GMichael]

Hey, you and GM are they ones with all the $$$$$ with your fancy setups and what not :incazzato:

Hey, my Yammie is a few years old already. If you like it, they're going for arround the $500 mark these days. Half what I paid.:incazzato:

[L.J.]

Hey, my Yammie is a few years old already. If you like it, they're going for arround the $500 mark these days. Half what I paid.:incazzato:

HELLOOOOOO................Speakers................ .....Rosewood..........................ringing any bells yet :prrr:

[GMichael]

HELLOOOOOO................Speakers................ .....Rosewood..........................ringing any bells yet :prrr:

Oh, those old things? Yeah, they're nice. But they don't do HDMI.

[L.J.]

GM, curious about what you think of the "presence speakers" that Yamaha uses? I went in to pick up an Elite yesterday and walked out with a 2700. How the heck did that happen?

[GMichael]

GM, curious about what you think of the "presence speakers" that Yamaha uses? I went in to pick up an Elite yesterday and walked out with a 2700. How the heck did that happen?

I stopped using mine. Mostly because I would need to buy another set of speakers for something I rarely use. I used to have the JBL E10's hooked up for this duty before I moved them into the bedroom for the second system. Never got around to replacing them.

They are nice for watching live DVD's. They widen the sound stage. But they can't be used at the same time as the rear's in 7.1, (unless they have been changes to the newer 2700 from my 2500) so they never got used much. If you don't ever use 7.1 then they are nice. Or I think you could use the extra amps for bi-ampping your mains. Check your manual, but I think that the 2700 can do that.

How's you end up with the 2700? Someone offer a great deal, or did you just fall in love with the extra power over the 661?

[kelsci]

Hi L.J., just perform the same tests with the 2700 that you did with all the other receivers.
I do not know how you walked out witht he 2700 either. I do not know what you are going to find with its stereo performance, but the 2700 was one of those that I tested against the Pioneer 81 last winter in stereo and it fell flat on its face. I did not get to hear how it performed in surround sound though. In the past, they did perform quite well in surround. The Sherwood 6095R has a Yamaha 912 24 bit chip and I have to say it processing prowness for 5.1 surround is nothing short of superb.

[L.J.]

Magnolia had one left on clearance last night. Probably making room for the 1800/2800. Figured I'd pick it up and give it try since the Elite is going to be around for awhile.

I did a quick manual setup last night but haven't a chance to do much but test everything out.

[L.J.]

Ok, I'm gonna be picking up the 91 Elite this weekend. I'll give the 2700 another week or so and then give the Elite the same amount of time. Not trying to drop $1599 on the 3808 so that's out. Onkyo freakin' screwed up so their out as well as Integra. Not sure how much of a difference there will be between the 2700 and 1800/2800, so it looks like I'm down to my last 2 choices unless I start looking at higher quality gear.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Pioneer receivers are my sentimental favorites, so I'm going to be rooting for the Elite 91. :thumbsup:

[kexodusc]

Ok, I'm gonna be picking up the 91 Elite this weekend. I'll give the 2700 another week or so and then give the Elite the same amount of time. Not trying to drop $1599 on the 3808 so that's out. Onkyo freakin' screwed up so their out as well as Integra. Not sure how much of a difference there will be between the 2700 and 1800/2800, so it looks like I'm down to my last 2 choices unless I start looking at higher quality gear.

ROFLMAO!
LJ I went through this same thing 3 or 4 years ago after my Marantz units died.
I had at one point in my home a Denon, NAD, H/K, and Yammie receiver (the ol' 1400).
In the end the NAD was the best sounding to me, but wasn't worth the $800 extra beans for significantly less features, and barely sounded better than the others.. I didn't really like the H/K's sound, the other 3 were pretty much equal there surprisingly - with a slight nod to the NAD's better power. The Denon and Yammie sounded the same to me.

If you can't find a receiver where you're looking, I'm going to have to suggest Arcam and Rotel, with NAD a distant 3rd. These 3 are the best a/v receivers I've heard, in that order. More money, less features (not sure about the HDMI though), but dude you're running out of options.

Keep us up to date.

[L.J.]

ROFLMAO!
LJ I went through this same thing 3 or 4 years ago after my Marantz units died.
I had at one point in my home a Denon, NAD, H/K, and Yammie receiver (the ol' 1400).
In the end the NAD was the best sounding to me, but wasn't worth the $800 extra beans for significantly less features, and barely sounded better than the others.. I didn't really like the H/K's sound, the other 3 were pretty much equal there surprisingly - with a slight nod to the NAD's better power. The Denon and Yammie sounded the same to me.

If you can't find a receiver where you're looking, I'm going to have to suggest Arcam and Rotel, with NAD a distant 3rd. These 3 are the best a/v receivers I've heard, in that order. More money, less features (not sure about the HDMI though), but dude you're running out of options.

Keep us up to date.

Yeah I got boxes laying around everywhere. So far just the 2700 and 805 would be considered an upgrade over my 2805. The 2700 is not exactly what I'm looking for in music playback, but very close. HT on the other hand is amazing. The best I have heard from any unit I've tried so far. If I could have the 2 channel playback of the 805 with the HT performance of the 2700, I'd be in heaven.

So this has me thinking. The Yamaha has a very neutral/balanced sound but the Onkyo seemed to put alot of emphasis on the mids and low end (my wife and I liked this very much with music but it did not always go well with HT), why is that? Is it the amp section of these units causing this difference? Can I just pick up a 2 channel amp that has the same emphasis on the mid/lows and pair it with the Yammie for the best of both worlds?

[kexodusc]

Yeah I got boxes laying around everywhere. So far just the 2700 and 805 would be considered an upgrade over my 2805. The 2700 is not exactly what I'm looking for in music playback, but very close. HT on the other hand is amazing. The best I have heard from any unit I've tried so far. If I could have the 2 channel playback of the 805 with the HT performance of the 2700, I'd be in heaven.

So this has me thinking. The Yamaha has a very neutral/balanced sound but the Onkyo seemed to put alot of emphasis on the mids and low end (my wife and I liked this very much with music but it did not always go well with HT), why is that? Is it the amp section of these units causing this difference? Can I just pick up a 2 channel amp that has the same emphasis on the mid/lows and pair it with the Yammie for the best of both worlds?

I haven't really spent much time with my Yammie's stereo abilities for music - I know the amps put their own spin on the sound. Something to consider if you end up using power amps with whatever model you buy.

[GMichael]

Yeah I got boxes laying around everywhere. So far just the 2700 and 805 would be considered an upgrade over my 2805. The 2700 is not exactly what I'm looking for in music playback, but very close. HT on the other hand is amazing. The best I have heard from any unit I've tried so far. If I could have the 2 channel playback of the 805 with the HT performance of the 2700, I'd be in heaven.

So this has me thinking. The Yamaha has a very neutral/balanced sound but the Onkyo seemed to put alot of emphasis on the mids and low end (my wife and I liked this very much with music but it did not always go well with HT), why is that? Is it the amp section of these units causing this difference? Can I just pick up a 2 channel amp that has the same emphasis on the mid/lows and pair it with the Yammie for the best of both worlds?

That's what I am hoping to do someday. The Halo A23 is only 125wpc. Not a power upgrade. But I'm hoping for a quality upgrade. (not that I have a problem with the sound from my Yammie. But if I can get more, then why not?)

[kelsci]

Hi L.J.; It should be interesting to see what kind of analysis you come up with in testing the Elite 91. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the 81 FLOORED many supposedly good and great receivers in stereo sound in a store demonstration. I cannot attest to Pioneers surround sound decoding since I did not get to hear that.

Sometimes, you get weird things that occur in making a-b tests on things. In the case of the Yamaha 2700, why the stereo cannot sound as good or perform as well as 5.1 surround sound is mindbending to say the least. However, your test are so far confirming to what I posted previously particulaly about Yamaha's surround sound performance. I believe that from my previous post on the Yamaha's chips that they do know what they are doing for 5.1 surround sound processing. IMHO, the Yamaha 2095 flagship receiver was a honey that was made a few years ago when it came to 5.1 reproduction.

[L.J.]

Well I gotta chance to spend some time with the Elite 91 and unfortunately ran into immediate HDMI issues. Complete drop in picture and sound for about 1 second, then everything pops back on like nothing happened. This is exactly what happened with the 3rd Onkyo that I had. Not sure if it's the units, my TV or the PS3 having the handshake issues. This did not happen with the 661, 2807 or the 2700.

The first drop out happened while playing a PS3 game. The second happened while watching BR of Happy Feet. I was done after that. Interesting that both units I had handshake problems with were HDMI 1.3.

The 91 is a pretty decent unit but I don't think a comparison to the 2700. You'd have to maybe step up to the 92 Elite for that. The sound was close to that of the Onkyo but not quite. It was more balanced, not putting too much emphasis on the low end, but it was there. With that said, the unit just didn't jump out at me like the 805 or 2700 did. It didn't feel like a real step up over my 2805. If the 91 didn't have any HDMI issues with the rest of my gear, I probably still would have returned it.

The 2700 came the closest in giving me exactly what I was looking for and IMO was the best sounding with HT. Huge step up over my 2805. After a few tweaks here and there I have it sounding pretty close to what I'm looking for in music playback as well. Looks like I found a winner. After going through 7 units, this has been an interesting and exhausting experience. I'm bushed :nonod: I asked in a thread a year or so ago about the difference in SQ from AVR's and I have been able to hear this difference first hand.

[GMichael]

Sounds like you listened to a lot of sounds, so you could sound out the best sound and make a sound decision.
Sounds good to me.
Enjoy the sound.

[L.J.]

Sounds like you listened to a lot of sounds, so you could sound out the best sound and make a sound decision.
Sounds good to me.
Enjoy the sound.

Now it's time to start looking at speakers. If I start now, I should be ready to purchase by 2009 :crazy:

[GMichael]

Now it's time to start looking at speakers. If I start now, I should be ready to purchase by 2009 :crazy:

I can't say enough about the people & products over at AV123.com. The build quality is fantastic while the sound quality is above most others at the same price points. They have new speakers that will be released soon. The Rockets are getting a makeover. Man is the new line going to be hot. There will also be an HT package with new smaller Mini's. The xs line is getting rave reviews for a budget minded line.
The owner posts on their forum to answer questions all the time. Great return policy as well.
Oh, and did I meantion that I love my Mini's? Even more than I love my Titanic.

[bobsticks]

L.J., I appreciate you taking the time to share your insights with us. I'm no less confused than I was in the beginning, but I am appreciative nonetheless....:cornut:


Peace

[kelsci]

Hi L.J.; You have now had what I call a major audio experience in trying out the various receivers. It is exhaustive experimentation particulaly involving 5 or more channels, never mind trying two channels. Now you know just how much variance there can be from the different brands out there. Good luck with the 2700.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Get the 91 back and live with it!!! :incazzato: j/k L.J.

I think this entire thread should be sent to Denon so L.J. can get rewarded for all this hard work.

-OR-

Maybe we should throw him a party? :biggrin5: