Rear speaker location

[mdchambe]

Hello,

I am setting up a home theater in a new room for my aunt. This space used to be a wide one car garage. One wall will be entirely windows (looking at the TV this is to your right) and the rear wall will be entirely built in bookcases.

her equipment is
Denon 2803
Denon DVD player, cant remember model number
Kef Q7 for fronts
Matching Kef center
Velodyne spl 1000 sub

My question is with the rears. I dont think that we can mount the rear to side wall because of the wall of windows and also because the room will be much wider than long. Could we use in wall speakers for this. If so, should they be mounted directly overhead the main sitting location or behind. If behind, how far behind. (anyone have any recommendation for a good in wall speaker for rears)

The only other location would be to get a set of speakers and set them on the bookshelves behind the main sitting area.

Thanks for you help

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Hello,

I am setting up a home theater in a new room for my aunt. This space used to be a wide one car garage. One wall will be entirely windows (looking at the TV this is to your right) and the rear wall will be entirely built in bookcases.

her equipment is
Denon 2803
Denon DVD player, cant remember model number
Kef Q7 for fronts
Matching Kef center
Velodyne spl 1000 sub

My question is with the rears. I dont think that we can mount the rear to side wall because of the wall of windows and also because the room will be much wider than long. Could we use in wall speakers for this. If so, should they be mounted directly overhead the main sitting location or behind. If behind, how far behind. (anyone have any recommendation for a good in wall speaker for rears)

The only other location would be to get a set of speakers and set them on the bookshelves behind the main sitting area.

Thanks for you help

I am going to be honest, it doesn't really matter that the room is wider than it is long. I think alot of rooms are this way. My certainly is.

Surround speakers SHOULD be mounted on the side walls for best performance. Rear wall locations do not convey the surround experience with much accuracy. Because of head related transfer distortions, sound eminating from the rear in this kind of setup can sound like they are coming from up front of the head, instead of behind it. The spacious sound that is highly desired for rear channel effects are enhanced when the direction of the signal comes to the sides of the head, not from the rear of the head.

Place the surround approximately 2-3 ft behind the listening position and to the sides, and 2-3 ft over the head from a seated position. This works well for movies as well as music. If windows make it impossible to mount directly on the wall, use very tall stands to place the speakers on. I am using milk crates covered with decorative fabric that matches the speakers in color(black velvet) because I also cannot drill into the side walls. These kinds of room setups require creativity, not compromises.

[mdchambe]

Should have stated before, stands are not an option. With 2 dogs, and 3 cats, they just will not work.

She enjoys music and movies, but will not be able to tell a major difference if the surrounds are not placed ideally. This is certainly NOT a dedicated home theater room, and therefore compromises are usually a necessary evil.

Therefore, what would you recommend

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Should have stated before, stands are not an option. With 2 dogs, and 3 cats, they just will not work.

She enjoys music and movies, but will not be able to tell a major difference if the surrounds are not placed ideally. This is certainly NOT a dedicated home theater room, and therefore compromises are usually a necessary evil.

Therefore, what would you recommend

I have a dog, and two cats. They do not go near the stands. They don't scratch on them(I have scratching posts), the dog has never knocked them over(they are too close to the wall).

I don't do well at recommending compromises that will result in poor performance, doesn't matter how non critical your aunt is. If she is that NON CRITICAL, then why invest in hometheater at all? The internal speaker in the T.V. should be just fine.

Rear wall and in ceiling placement are unworkable due to imaging problems. The next thing I could recommend is placing them on the sides, but suspended from the ceiling facing downward. This way they are overhead, to the sides, and not as compromised as you propose. Then on the other hand, if you aunt is not that critical, put them anywhere you desire, and forget about any suggestion you would get from here.

[mdchambe]

Well then, I have an idea for you. If you are unable to make a recommendation on my alternatives, do not waste my time to do so. I ma very happy that YOUR cats and dog have not hurt anything, but I would rather not take the chance.

Not a critical enough ear to tell the difference between a TV's speaker and a home theater, that makes alot of sense. You're right, that takes a very discriminating ear, such as your own.

I appreciate your first response to my question, but not your second. I dont need that kind of "help"

Now, to anyone who has a practical and helpful suggestion, your input would be greatly appreciated.

[cam]

Get rid of whatever speakers you are using for rears and go get some dipole speakers from paradigm. I have the adp 370's but anybody would be happy with the adp 170's. My wife voices her critisicm about my home theater options over the years but when I brought the adp 370's home and mounted them on the wall she was very happy. She hated my old bookshelf speakers on stands behind the couch.

[This Guy]

He just said he can't hang any speakers on the walls, and Im sure you can't just put Bipoles on the floor. Plus he already said he had KEF mains, might as well go with Kef rears to match. MDchambe, you could try sitting the speakers on the floor facing up about 2 feet behind you. They have to be direct radiating though. Otherwise you're gonna have to go inwall or something. Maybe rearange the room to accomadate an HT better.

-Joey

[cam]

He metioned putting speakers on bookshelfs behind. Instead of doing that I suggested going for the dipoles. When windows interfere dipoles can be more forgiving. Beside, behind, above, its all good.

[mdchambe]

Im not sure if the dipoles on the side walls or setting them on the floor (cats and dogs) would work all that great.

Has anyone here used in ceiling speakers for rears. If so, ideally, how far should they be in the ceiling behind the listening position? How far, if mounted in the ceiling, do they need to be away from the wall?

Thanks Again?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Get rid of whatever speakers you are using for rears and go get some dipole speakers from paradigm. I have the adp 370's but anybody would be happy with the adp 170's. My wife voices her critisicm about my home theater options over the years but when I brought the adp 370's home and mounted them on the wall she was very happy. She hated my old bookshelf speakers on stands behind the couch.

Cam,

There you go again, absent mindedly pitching dipoles where they may not possibly work. Get it through you head sir, DIPOLES DO NOT WORK IN ALL SITUATIONS. JUST BECAUSE IT WORKED IN YOUR ROOM, DOESN'T MEAN IT WORKS IN EVERY ROOM. Please stop passing out bad advice to the unknowing. It only serves to confuse them more.

Mdchame;

I am sorry you didn't like my advice, but I only used YOUR words to illustrate a point. You can have a imperfect situation and still get optimal results. You do not have to program your mind for compromise when creativity is your answer. You don't have to make a compromised situation more compromised by your way of thinking.

I have installed many a hometheater in imperfect rooms, or in imperfect situations(kids, dogs etc..) and still managed to correctly setup the system for optimal results. Your situation is no worse than mine, and my room is setup is according to ITU 775B standards. If you are creative(and open your mind a little) even with your situation you can setup the system properly. What is the use in spending the money on equipment and use it in a setup loaded with compromises?

[cam]

"THIS GUY" suggested putting speakers on the floor facing up when "mdchambe" has 2 dogs and 3 cats. I hope I don't have to "spell" that one out for him. Okay, sir terrence, would it have made a difference if I said bipoles. You obviously do not like dipoles and that is fine. They are not for everyone. What I am trying to get at is dipole or bipole can be hung on the wall, and I know one wall is all windows but it may be possible to hang one somewhere. It would be like hanging a small picture somewhere and if that somewhere is not ideal then the characteristics of a dipole or BIPOLE would overcome the less then desirable location.

[recoveryone]

Just hang them on the rear wall and call it a day!....It may not be Ideal, but it is suggested as an second position by Dolby labs. All it will due is give you more directional sound from the rear and some like it better than the disffuse sound from the side mounting. Give each suggestion a try and go with sounds good to you/Aunt.

[chimera128]

Have you considered Bipolar towers? Since you already have towers I am assuming that you are not afraid of them being knocked over. Also I am not sure what type of budget you are looking at or if you are even considering a possible upgrade in the surrounds. However a bipolar tower will have directionality because one of the driver sets can be aimed toward the listening position and diffuse sound via the driver set aimed towards the back. They generally have to be about a foot or so from the rear wall to be effective. You could probably pick up a couple towers for less than $600. I hope your aunt appreciates what you are doing for her.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

"THIS GUY" suggested putting speakers on the floor facing up when "mdchambe" has 2 dogs and 3 cats. I hope I don't have to "spell" that one out for him. Okay, sir terrence, would it have made a difference if I said bipoles. You obviously do not like dipoles and that is fine. They are not for everyone. What I am trying to get at is dipole or bipole can be hung on the wall, and I know one wall is all windows but it may be possible to hang one somewhere. It would be like hanging a small picture somewhere and if that somewhere is not ideal then the characteristics of a dipole or BIPOLE would overcome the less then desirable location.

Cam,

This is not an issue of like and dislike. Its an issue of what is appropriate and what is not. I am a big supporter of dipoles when the installation lends itself to it. But it is bad advice to recommend them to EVERYONE ALL OF THE TIME. If you hang the diploes on the backwall, then the output of one side of the drivers would be firing directly into the window. I cannot tell how bad that would sound, there are just no words. Dipoles and bipoles should NEVER be installed behind a listener. I have explained this to you before. It is VERY difficult to get stable imaging from speakers located behind the head. HRT make this very difficult. With dipoles and bipoles it is impossible to get stable imaging because these speakers are primarly reflective speakers. Dipoles and bipoles should ALWAYS be installed to the sides of the listening position as this is were the ears cue in to reflections that represent spaciousness. We don not derive the sense of spaciousness from reflections eminating from the rear. Out ears just do not interpret that way.

Mdchambe has got to already make some compromises. Why make more by choosing the wrong type of speaker for his setup. That wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

[cam]

Sir terrence, I have heard that people have put dipoles on the back wall but have put the right on the left and the left on the right. Apparently this creates a phantom center speaker. Is this true or bogus. Remember I am talking about the back wall not the side walls.

[Willow]

what I would do is :

1-visit the dolby website, they offer different rear speaker positions.
2-try some out and see what fits,remember HT is supposed to enhance not take over.
3-lose the rear speakers
4-put up with what you have
5-get rid of the dog and cat ( not an option I know ) this is to prove a point

like some one above said set them on small stands ( I cant have stands....) well try 2 big concrete blocks covered in material and lie the speaker on its back firing up-wards on either side of the couch(or listening area)

or dont listen to any advise and do what you want !!

[nightflier]

mdchambe,

I used Axiom audio (www.axiomaudio.com) quad-polar speakers, that have two 45 degree facing tweeters and two up & down firing woofers. Because of the bottom woofer, they can ordinarily only be mounted on a wall, but Axiom also sells matching stands that are sturdy and will allow you to move the speakers to the best location for your listening position. The speakers are rated very highly by reviewers and come in two sizes (QS4 & QS8). Hope this helps.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir terrence, I have heard that people have put dipoles on the back wall but have put the right on the left and the left on the right. Apparently this creates a phantom center speaker. Is this true or bogus. Remember I am talking about the back wall not the side walls.

Yes I have heard about the setup, but it is highly dependent on where you sit to get the effect. You have to sit relatively close to the in phase portion of the dipole to get the effect at all. Listeners seated off axis of center will not hear EX at all. The image in not particularly stable because of the multitude of reflections not only off the adjoining walls, but off our heads and pinna. So you are hearing reflections, from reflections, from reflections. By the time it reaches the inner ear, the frequency response(and phase) is out of wack. This is why THX has back pedalled about the use of dipoles in the center rear position and now recommends direct radiators.

The MAIN reason this setup is recommended is to reduce interaual cancellations cause by the interaction between the in phase portions of the loudspeaker, and the out of phase portions. The problem with this setup is that you will hear different things depending on your ears relationship to the in phase portions, and the out of phase portions of the loudspeaker. People sitting near the the in phase portion will hear a different kind of surround than people sitting in the out of phase portion of the loudspeaker.

If you put dipoles to the sides, and direct radiators in the rear, you eliminate all of these problems.