Cultural Sound

[nightflier]

Well, we had some friends over for dinner last night and the conversation turned to audio. After a fairly heated debate regarding the cost of some gear, someone suggested that different countries have different tastes and that this is reflected in the gear that is produced there. Everyone decided to chime in with their own opinion on the matter ( please excuse any underlying bigotry in these comments, but theses where the more colorful suggestions):

- Japanese people prefer bright non-bassy gear, minimalist in size, but with lots of features
- Americans don't know good sound at all and just want loud, boomy bass
- The Brits prefer a laid-back dark sound with less midrange but an airy top end
- The Germans prefer a very correct, fast, analytical and accurate sound without much bass
- The Danes and Scandinavians like the German sound but with solid bass
- The Canadians look for a sound that is completely accurate across the whole frequency, regardless of how it all comes together
- The Irish and Scots will design the exact opposite of what the Brits prefer
- The French prefer their bass tight and the top end rolled off

Along with similar comments about Russian, Chinese, and Italian designers, most of it probably exaggerated with stereotypical attributes from our own prejudices. And we were all discussing this after a few bottles of wine and a full meal, soliciting more the occasional chuckle than the undisputed truth of these hypotheses.

But this idea did get me thinking. Certainly we read snippets of these same sentiments in all the audio trade rags. And to be perfectly fair, culture does impart work ethic, attention to certain details over others, and most importantly, what people value in a product. In addition, a country's historical experience should impact how that society listens to, enjoys, and purchases audio equipment and music.

So is there such a thing as a "Canadian sound," a "German sound," a "British sound", or even an "American sound?"

[Luvin Da Blues]

Not to sure about electronics since I have pretty much owned only Japanese or American gear but ya , having owned English, American, Japanese and now Canadian speakers, I think that "some" speakers have a 'cultural" sound.

"The Canadians look for a sound that is completely accurate across the whole frequency, regardless of how it all comes together" . Yep, that's us Canucks, unassuming but have high standards.

I'll take my tongue outta my cheek now.

[emorphien]

I agree that some speakers probably have a "cultural" sound if you could call it that. I like the british loudspeaker which does have a particular characteristic you certainly couldn't say there's a strong trend among speakers from any particular region IMO. Fun conversation though I bet, good one after a few too many drinks!

[O'Shag]

There's no doubt the Asian audiophile takes his/her listening very seriously, and I have to say in general they do have a very good 'ear'. They tend to focus on tone colour and such like, and a good many audiophiles in Asia levitate towards hgh effeciency horn/concentric driver/compression drive type speakers such as GRF Tannoys, JBLs, Altecs, Jensen Imperials and so on. This of course allows them to explore the very real magic of SET amps and older tube amps such as the Marantz 8B. These folks take audio very seriously indeed. Imagine building a 60ft folded horn into your house (Horn and Garden Magazine). The Asian market has realized just how good some of the older stuff is and have bought a lot of it up and shipped it to Hong Kong, China, Malaysia Japan etc. This has driven the price of the older stuff through the roof. I think this generalization about Asian audiophiles holds true for the most part.

I wouldn't agree with the bit about German audiophiles; what about Acapella's glorious speakers or einstein audio gear?

[nightflier]

I agree that some speakers probably have a "cultural" sound if you could call it that. I like the british loudspeaker which does have a particular characteristic you certainly couldn't say there's a strong trend among speakers from any particular region IMO. Fun conversation though I bet, good one after a few too many drinks!

So what is British sound supposed to be like?

[bobsticks]

So what is British sound supposed to be like?

aits gote plentee of twaing on th' tope-end, guvnah

[Rich-n-Texas]

:lol: Yeah, he left himself wide open for that one didn't he StickyBobby? Sorry dude, when I saw you refered to as StickyBobby I just lost it!

I've got B&W's all around the room but they're driven by a Yamaha, so I guess that makes me a mut?

[bobsticks]

:lol: ...StickyBobby??

Only on the weekends and ya gotta wine me and dine me...baddabing baddaboom :7:

[emorphien]

So what is British sound supposed to be like?
It sounds like British speakers! They're snobby and have a haughty attitude.

[nightflier]

What about that German sound? No bass, no air, no top end, but all business right down the middle? Mmmm, isn't that what sauerkraut tastes like?

[kexodusc]

I dunno guys - I'll pick on Canada because they have a few popular brands these days. I can put Axiom, Paradigm, PSB, Energy, Totem Acoustics, and Focus Audio side by side and I hear quite a variety in presentation.
PSB, Axiom, and Paradigm are a tad similar in presentation, though I find Axiom and Paradigm a bit more on the bright side, and PSB a bit warmer, but without that upper/mid bass exaggeration
Totem and Focus Audio have what I'd consider a more distinctively European sound - great bass, solid mid-range, not too forward, I guess in line with the Scandinavian description you provided. Nothing like Paradigm or PSB.
Energy is maybe somewhere in the middle? I'm only familiar with their old Connoisseur line and the Veritas though.

I don't understand how something can sound "analytical". I've always felt the listener hears "analytically". Seems to be an almost derogatory word for a sound some people obviously enjoy a great deal

Maybe at one point in time there were some natural similarities in different regions. If Japan had a hot model, one would expect a few local competitors would attempt something similar.

Didn't' the US go through this with Boston Acoustics and the east coast sound?

I think it's less true now. It's more common to see European drivers in an American or Japanese designed speaker, assembled in China, for example. Globalization and all that.

[kexodusc]

aits gote plentee of twaing on th' tope-end, guvnah
ROFLMAO! Eew just maide me spew muy war-tuh own me monitah!

[emorphien]

I dunno guys - I'll pick on Canada because they have a few popular brands these days. I can put Axiom, Paradigm, PSB, Energy, Totem Acoustics, and Focus Audio side by side and I hear quite a variety in presentation.
PSB, Axiom, and Paradigm are a tad similar in presentation, though I find Axiom and Paradigm a bit more on the bright side, and PSB a bit warmer, but without that upper/mid bass exaggeration
Totem and Focus Audio have what I'd consider a more distinctively European sound - great bass, solid mid-range, not too forward, I guess in line with the Scandinavian description you provided. Nothing like Paradigm or PSB.
Energy is maybe somewhere in the middle? I'm only familiar with their old Connoisseur line and the Veritas though.

I don't understand how something can sound "analytical". I've always felt the listener hears "analytically". Seems to be an almost derogatory word for a sound some people obviously enjoy a great deal

Maybe at one point in time there were some natural similarities in different regions. If Japan had a hot model, one would expect a few local competitors would attempt something similar.

Didn't' the US go through this with Boston Acoustics and the east coast sound?

I think it's less true now. It's more common to see European drivers in an American or Japanese designed speaker, assembled in China, for example. Globalization and all that.
Agreed on Canadian speakers. Axiom and Paradigm are similar (but not completely), PSB is definitely the warmer of the three and IMO a little less colored and Totem and Focus are (like you said) a very different sound from the rest and that's part of why I love my Totems.

[Woochifer]

I think a lot of these generalizations have gotten outdated (though perceptions and beliefs tend to linger well beyond the reality in the audio hobby), and the description of the "American" sound is particularly outmoded, because American speakers in particular would include everything from Bose to Vandersteen to JBL to Magnepan to NHT to Klipsch to Martin Logan to Avantgarde. Doubtful that any single description can universally apply to all of these American speakers. Just as I doubt that you can generalize what people in any country "generally" prefer.

I mean, if you're talking about the mass market, people will tend to gravitate towards what's inexpensive and sounds "good enough." Americans in general don't spend a whole lot on audio gear, and I suspect that this tendency would apply towards the rest of the world as well. As far as I know, audiophile-grade (or even so-called "mid-fi") components don't constitute the mass market in any country.

And among audiophiles, the debates that rage on this and other boards would tend to support the notion that there are a multitude of preferences and points of view that exist in the market.


So what is British sound supposed to be like?

Once upon a time, the British sound was regarded as "warm" with more of a rolled off high end. Some audiophiles regarded this as refined. I would better describe it as boring. To my ears, it sounded fine with acoustic music, but drained the life out of rock music.

The vintage B&W, KEF, and Mission speakers, among others, shared this general characteristic. Some people today still try to apply the "British sound" label, but I can tell you from first hand experience that today's B&Ws for example sound very different than the ones from 20 years ago.


Didn't' the US go through this with Boston Acoustics and the east coast sound?

Actually, it was more the "West Coast" sound vs. the "New England" sound. The West Coast sound was very much defined by JBL and its many imitators. At one point, the JBL L100 was the best selling speaker in the world, and it was derived from the 43XX which was the best selling studio monitor. No coincidence that a lot of the pop music recorded in the 1970s seems to sound optimal on vintage JBLs.

The "New England" sound came from companies such as Advent and KLH. (Some would also include the vintage Bose speakers in this group, since it tended to have less in the way of highs and lows compared to JBL and Cerwin Vega) It was more balanced and refined than the "boom & sizzle" sound of the West Coast speakers. Later on, newer New England companies like Polk and Boston Acoustics would tweak with the sound, and dial in a bit more punch into the New England sound.

These differentiations seem to have gone by the wayside, and the general characteristics of speakers (at least the conventional variety) are a lot more similar today than 20 years ago. I think in a way, modern research like Floyd Toole's NRC publications really contributed to narrowing the differences between speakers, and eliminating a lot of these geographic characteristics.

[nightflier]

These differentiations seem to have gone by the wayside, and the general characteristics of speakers (at least the conventional variety) are a lot more similar today than 20 years ago. I think in a way, modern research like Floyd Toole's NRC publications really contributed to narrowing the differences between speakers, and eliminating a lot of these geographic characteristics.

While they may be outdated, they are still widely used. John Atkinson, Robert Harley, Michael Fremer, are among those still using terms like these in their write-ups. I'm not saying they are the best source of information, but generally speaking there is still an expectation, if you will, of a particular cultural sound.

And perhaps there is some usefulness to it too. After all, when it comes to the language people use to describe hifi, it's not like a point of reference, however outdated, isn't needed. After all, how the hey does someone describe the a sound as having "air"? Are we talking cool air, stale air, hot air? Or are is actually physical air displacement? Maybe someone should write a dictionary/reference for audio terms, kind of like the hundreds of books on computer terms.

[Florian]

What about that German sound? No bass, no air, no top end, but all business right down the middle? Mmmm, isn't that what sauerkraut tastes like?

Sauerkraut is pretty good :)

I personally was a "Krell" kinda guy. Big american macro dynamics with a lot of oompf, very much like a big old jbl kinda sound. A typical german equipment is like Burmester. It has a kick ass build quality, its a high quality finish but it sound harsh, edgy and cold. *kinda like i am in the morning.

I know prefer the sound of the "little" guys from the country side like Sphinx gear. Much more texture and tonality. Kinda like the asians get with their tube amp, but to me the Tannoys or high efficency speakers cant cut it, neither can minimonitors.

I need a big fat speaker that can be

1. American- Big bold and powerfull
2. German- Precise and fast
3. Asian- Colorful with lots of bloom and texture

I am not much a fan of "british" fuzzy sound :cornut:

PS: I guess i am multicultural afterall

[basite]

I think the american sound, as it was described in the first post, varies. I think american people who don't know anything about audio want to get the loud and boomy sound, just to impress because they have more bass and can go louder than the rest. But I think this will go for the rest of the wold too, people here in europe (and especially the young teenagers) think that 'quality' is defined in 'how loud it goes', which it isn't.
btw, as wooch has already stated, you americans have alot of high end & good products there too. Look at thiel, or vandersteen, ML, wilson, Krell, MF, Mcintosh, ... endless list.

As for what I prefer: I very much like the sound of my advents, and like alot of the other high end american loudspeaker brands too. My current amp is japanese, but the next one will be american (a Mcintosh), my sources are japanese too (well, the cdp isn't entirely from japan) to take it in extremes, all my cabling is american too. I can appreciate the sound of a british speaker, but some of them can be extremely boring.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[musicman1999]

Disagree on the french sound,i have french speakers and the top end is not rolled off at all,in fact many people would call them bright.Not that familiar with their electonics however so i don't know if it carrys over.Kex is right however with globalization these days things are becoming blurred.In my system i have Canadian,British and French components and it seems to come together well.

bill

[Rich-n-Texas]

It's pretty wild the way you guys describe sound... Very interesting. Maybe already answered, but how would y'all describe the sound characteristics of the B&W line I have?

[musicman1999]

I auditioned the 600 series before i bought my Labs 5 or 6 years ago and found them decent,good for movies,less so for music.I have heard that the 800 series are good speakers however.You may find that a different reciever would give you an improved sound,B&W are often found with Rotel gear for example.The better your speakers are the more unforgiving they are of other components in your system.

bill

[O'Shag]

British 'Fuzzy' Sound??? I guess the top models from Harbeth, KEF, Tannoy, Linn etc are fuzzy?? Millions would disagree. KEF for a start has sold millions of drivers, including those to other high-end speaker manufacturers - a helluva lot more than Dynaudio. Our logic may sometimes be fuzzy, Beckham's haircut is currently fuzzy and the number of days he'll actually play for the Galaxy is currently fuzzy, Posh Spice's brain is constantly fuzzy, we've even encountered the FuzzyWuzzies, but our speakers are not fuzzy - or did you mean fussy?

[Florian]

Millions of people eat McDonalds
Millions of users use MS Windows
Millions have died trough religious wars

Your point?

[O'Shag]

Millions of people eat McDonalds
Millions of users use MS Windows
Millions have died trough religious wars

Your point?

okay then.

[emorphien]

I joke that speakers from a region sound certain ways but I think we're becoming pretty clear that these stereotypes aren't very reliable :lol:

[Rich-n-Texas]

I auditioned the 600 series before i bought my Labs 5 or 6 years ago and found them decent,good for movies,less so for music.I have heard that the 800 series are good speakers however.You may find that a different reciever would give you an improved sound,B&W are often found with Rotel gear for example.The better your speakers are the more unforgiving they are of other components in your system.

bill
Thanks for your input Bill. A receiver upgrade is in my not-too-distant future.

[Florian]

okay then.#

The topic was a personal question and to me, with the exeption of Tannoy, most british speakers sound warm, wooly and fussy/fuzzy. In other words overcolored and smeared. But this is my personal opinion and i can understand why some sees this the other way or even like the typical sound.

The argument that millions like it, does not do it for me, because i am not a part of the big "soup" :)

[Woochifer]

While they may be outdated, they are still widely used. John Atkinson, Robert Harley, Michael Fremer, are among those still using terms like these in their write-ups. I'm not saying they are the best source of information, but generally speaking there is still an expectation, if you will, of a particular cultural sound.

And perhaps there is some usefulness to it too. After all, when it comes to the language people use to describe hifi, it's not like a point of reference, however outdated, isn't needed. After all, how the hey does someone describe the a sound as having "air"? Are we talking cool air, stale air, hot air? Or are is actually physical air displacement? Maybe someone should write a dictionary/reference for audio terms, kind of like the hundreds of books on computer terms.

I think this is a good example of people "hearing" what they expect to hear, and letting perceptions linger, even if the reality presents a more diverse picture. Like I said, I'm not sure what defines an "American" sound given that speakers ranging from Magneplanars to Altec VOTs to Dunlavys to Def Techs are American. And the American amps can range from SET amps to Bel Canto digital amps and any variety of SS and tube hybrid designs in between.

The "British sound" label in particular seems outdated, given how companies like B&W and KEF have evolved their design approaches. The B&Ws of today generally sound more similar to Canadian speakers than the vintage B&W speakers that helped define the "British sound."

As another example, some people persist in labeling Yamaha receivers as "bright" sounding and Marantz receivers as "warm." When receivers used analog controls, these descriptions were appropriate and could be verified with measurements (the "zero state" on a Yamaha showed a slight boost in the highs, while the Marantzes had a slight rise in the midrange). But, in my comparisons between more recent digital AV receivers, I did not find noticeable differences between the Yamahas and Marantz models, certainly a lot less significant than what I'd observed with their vintage analog models.

[nightflier]

So I think what I'm reading is that the labels are outdated and most of the gear no longer conforms to the labels of yesteryear. That said, the labels can still apply when speaking in general terms, especially when discussing something as hard to define with words as sound. So there is such a thing as "the British sound" however outdated it may be. With that in mind, what are the typical/traditional attributes of (fill in the blank):

- British Sound:
- Canadian Sound:
- American Sound:
- Japanese Sound:
- German Sound:
- Danish Sound:
- French Sound:
- Down-under Sound:

Those are all the ones that come to mind as having a traditional sound, but add your own, if you think it applies.

[Woochifer]

So I think what I'm reading is that the labels are outdated and most of the gear no longer conforms to the labels of yesteryear. That said, the labels can still apply when speaking in general terms, especially when discussing something as hard to define with words as sound. So there is such a thing as "the British sound" however outdated it may be. With that in mind, what are the typical/traditional attributes of (fill in the blank):

- British Sound:
- Canadian Sound:
- American Sound:
- Japanese Sound:
- German Sound:
- Danish Sound:
- French Sound:
- Down-under Sound:

Those are all the ones that come to mind as having a traditional sound, but add your own, if you think it applies.

Well, that's the thing. Within each of these geographic areas, you'll find a fair amount of diversity, and overall the differences in what you hear have narrowed considerably. Nowadays, you tend not to find a lot of component-based audio systems that are blatantly inaccurate by design. The vintage JBLs for example had large inaccuracies in specific areas, but much of the music could still sound quite good since the music was likely mixed on JBL studio monitors. I think a lot of the stereotypes about what typifies "American" sound lingers from that era when JBL was the dominant speaker manufacturer.

And this perception of what sounds American doesn't even include the New England sound, which also had a very large and dedicated following, and placed much greater emphasis on tonal neutrality.

IMO, the Canadian sound is the most current evolution of the New England sound, and largely typified by the companies spawned from the NRC research like Energy, PSB, and Paradigm. The NRC research laid out the parameters that define consumer preferences -- i.e., flat midrange, low distortion, small off-axis tonal deviations -- and the Canadian companies very successfully used these parameters to spawn an entire industry. Even Polk now cites the NRC findings in its literature, and Boston Acoustics significantly redesigned its entire speaker lineup I think in response to the huge success that the Canadian companies have had. But, even in Canada you have companies like Totem and Reference 3A that have their own design approaches.

The idea of a Danish sound is somewhat humorous because aside from the obvious major player in Dynaudio, Denmark is also where the European market JBLs are manufactured. My understanding though is that the JBLs made in Denmark are audibly different than the ones made in their Northridge plant, so there may be some validity to how tastes vary by region. The question though is whether Danish audio gear is built around a specific set of general characteristics, or if there is a diverse ecosystem of different design approaches like you find in the U.S. And I would pose the same question regarding all of the other regions that you listed.

[thekid]

My guess there was something to the cultural aspect years ago when the manufacturers in a given country actually produced the equipment and competition from outside the country was either non-existent or prohibitively more expensive. A bad analogy would be say McDonalds back in the day when they were really the only fast food franchiser of hamburgers. At the time some might say that is the "american" hamburger because it was a popular with the public and soon spawned a series of imitators who essentially produced a similar tasting product. Weak analogy I know but hopefully you see my point. Anyway with the equipment now produced worldwide (and contrary to what some in the audio world want to acknowledge) there is shared technology and in some cases shared parts between a variety of brands of different nationalities that probably have made these cultural differences less pronounced from the early years of audio.

Equipment aside I did hear something recently regarding the use of bass in early Beatles records. It seems the in Britian the bass levels on many records were purposely reduced because they thought that high levels of bass would cause the needles to jump when the record was played. After hearing several Motown recordings with heavier bass the members of the Beatles found out about the way bass was being handled on their records and had it changed. Maybe some other members here could collaborate that story but it raises the question; Is it the recordings or instrumentation that has an effect on how the culture wants to hear their music and the equipment follows???????