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nightflier
07-13-2007, 12:42 PM
So I finally installed a 5-pack of Webern speakers that I had purchased when the gray aluminum series were being discontinued at Magnolia. They are replacing a 7.1 all Axiom system as well as an additional two M22ti's for my 2-channel listening. Ironically, I like going back to a 5.1 setup since it simplifies movie sound selections, allows me to configure a second zone with the 2 extra rear channels and clears out a lot of space.

I also found that I like the sound better, particularly with SACD (and I am only just starting to listen to the new setup, so there will be more thorough testing later). I know these speakers are a notch higher, and quite frankly the Axioms are no slouches, but I also think that the speaker configuration has a lot to do with it. For example, unlike with the Axioms, all the speakers are identical, so all 5 channels produce what the recording engineers intended for each of the 5 speakers around me. Also, being on-wall speakers, they allowed me to have them further from the listening position. With the Axioms, the fronts were too close and the rears (QS4's) sounded too far away. Finally, will be using the HT bypass on the preamp, rather than a separate pre & amp with an extra two speakers, because I think the Viennas are up to the task.

I also turned the room around 90 degrees so that we are now watching TV along the long wall. This allows me to have more than two people watching (SoCal houses have small rooms, folks). As expected, this also widened the sound stage considerably for those scenes with lots of atmosphere. For example, when Treebeard screams after seeing the horrors of Saruman's minions in LOTR-TT, the sound really does go all around the room evenly rather than fading too far behind before weakly returning to the fronts, as it did with the Axioms.

Anyhow, those are my first impressions on the sound. Next I'll be working on:

- Selecting a flat screen TV (I'm still using a gingantic 42" CRT that juts out way too far into the middle of the floor, I'm considering that 46" Westinghouse monitor).
- Hiding the speaker cables (this will not be elegant since I have to go overhead)
- Replacing the SVS water cooler with a small box sub
- Trying out different amps (I'm currently using an Outlaw 7-channel, but I think I'm going to go 2 & 3 channels, possibly Anthem, since I really don't need 7)

topspeed
07-13-2007, 01:31 PM
Sounds great, Nighflier! I can only imagine how much better MC hi-rez sounds with matching speakers. Pics?

kexodusc
07-13-2007, 02:46 PM
Nice write-up, Nightflier. Always like reading about your guy's upgrades.
I'm really curious about your new speakers...those almost look like Scan-Speak drivers, maybe Peerless India....either way, no slouch.

You like them better than your Axioms (which models did you have for front mains and center?), which is good. How much of this would you say is attributed to the speakers being better vs your speaker placement and the fact they're all matching?

My in-laws are looking for on-wall speakers that don't suck. This could be right up their alley. I have a pair of m3Ti's, so any comparison you can give with the Axioms is appreciated as a point of reference. They find them a bit too bright unless there's zero toe in but that's moot since they don't mount on-wall...anyway any comments are appreciated.

Congrats on the new toys - any plans for a Primare amp?

bobsticks
07-13-2007, 04:18 PM
Congrats 'flier. I looked at some...Beethovens, maybe, and found them to be a nice little speaker (literally, whichever model I heard was one of their smaller floorstanders). Had a pleasant though not overtly dynamic sound and, of course, you throw in some bucks for that furniture-grade finish. Pretty cool to hear that they are competently entering the on-wall market. I'm eager to hear about your progress with them.

cvc
07-14-2007, 01:27 PM
When I switched from a Mitsubishi rear projection to a panasonic plasma it was a great difference in sound without the huge cabinet jutting out into the room. The center soundstage was so much better. Maybe this is the wrong thing to do but I just placed my subwoofer directly between my main speakers beneath my plasma and set my center speaker on top of it. My sub is an older Klipsh that's 22" or so high. This makes for a nice height for my center speaker. Obviously I used some chunky rubber feet between the speaker and sub. Looks and sounds great.

nightflier
07-14-2007, 08:36 PM
Top, I'm gona hold off on the pics for now, at least until I get the LCD & the cables out of sight. All the speakers are still cluttering the room and my current CRT is so large that it takes up a good chunk of the floor in front of the chairs. I can't even find a good angle to take the pictures from - it's looking like a storage room right now. Truth be told, this isn't really the best room for a HT setup, but all the rooms are small in my house and I've already been kicked out of one, so now I have to have my 2-channel & my HT in one room. That's what happens with kids, cats, and packrat family members....

Kexo, I replaced four Axiom M22ti's, a VP150, two M3Ti's and two QS4's with five Vienna Weberns from the Schonberg series. Two of the M22Ti's were part of my 2-channel system, along with my other speakers, the Quads, Nightingales, and Meadowlarks (believe it or not, all in that tiny HT room). The Weberns are a bit odd too. The drivers are see-through so you can actually see the internals behind the cone. The manual states that they are aluminum on the outside but wood-composite on the inside and shaped to maximize the internal volume and rigidity specifically for on-wall positioning. They are also heavy as heck and I had to use sizable 3" screw for the hanging brackets using a torque wrench to get them into the studs behind the drywall - I nearly broke a finger doing it. That said, it's a very elegant system. This is because the speakers are completely isolated from the wall using a rubber pad and suspended in the brackets using two large adjustable screws on the top and bottom. They can be mounted with the tweeter facing in or out and at three different toe-in angles. Needless to say, some serious engineering went into the design. Also, I read that the new gloss-black Weberns are actually lighter than these, so it may be easier to mount those.

Now for my second impression on the sound. I must say that now that I've had some time to calibrate the Weberns, and although the sound has improved, it still does not match the fidelity of my 2-channel system, and this is puzzling. I do have the tweeters facing out right now in an effort to add dimension, and that was against the advice of the manual for an initial installation, so I may flip them and see if that improves things a bit. Truth be told, I think I'm beginning to hear the limits of the Outlaw Audio gear, either of the pre/pro or the amp, and I might just upgrade that sometime in the near future, too. I don't know if I'm wild enough to go with Primare, but Anthem or Arcam seem to be well reviewed units. So I'll be doing some more tests to see if I can improve on that, and I'll post more info as I fiddle with settings, amps, wires, and positions some more.

CVC, I think you're on to something here. Right now I have the center Webern sitting on top of the TV which puts it way out in front of the L&Rs. My pre/pro allows me to adjust for this, but I'm pretty sure that this setup is affecting the sound. I suppose I could purchase another bracket and mount the center on the wall as well, but I'll have to get the TV first since the stand is in the way right now. To be frank I'm reluctant to replace the TV because of how heavy that monster is. I nearly destroyed the landing on our stairs just getting it into the room, and I don't know how on earth I'm going to get it back down. Anyhow, I'll probably wait a little bit before I do that; I'm still a bit undecided on what kind of TV to get.

Regarding the sub, I currently have it in the back left corner behind the seats, but that's probably going to change as well. It's an SVS cylinder sub and doesn't lend itself well to being moved around to find the best spot. But as soon as I can get a reasonably-sized replacement (SVS SB12+ is looking really good right now), then I'll work on getting that set up the way I like it. I should say that my current sub is an amazing performer going down to 16Hz if need be and it's going to break my heart to see it go. But times change, life changes, and needs change....

P.S. I use the Sound & Vision setup DVD to calibrate my TV, but it really doesn't have much for setting up speakers aside from the basic test-tone setup steps. Can anyone recommend a DVD that has better sound utils? Thanks.

O'Shag
07-15-2007, 12:25 AM
NightFlier, The Primare gear is very nice... The new primare CD player got a rave review recently either in Stereophile or TAS. I did pop round to Magnolia HiFi and audition Primare gear driving Sonus Fabre Cremonas and I think the Primare gear is VG and also very pleasing to look at - as are the Cremonas.

nightflier
07-18-2007, 02:10 PM
OK, I've had some time to run the system through its paces. I also took the time to calibrate everything with my RS sound level meter and the Sound & Vision setup DVD. Here's what I've discovered so far:

- The speakers are a touch too high on the walls. I really can't change this now, and I like the fact that my little ones can't reach them yet, but I didn't take into account that when I recline the lazy boys, they drop my head down about a foot and back about a foot and a half. If anyone is setting up their system in front of reclining chairs, that's probably something that shouldn't be ignored. I also will be looking to mount the center channel under the TV (instead of on top) , and that should smooth out the front image, I hope.

- The difference between DTS and DD is much more pronounced. And I now like DTS a whole lot more - bass is tighter, sound is crisper all around. It's really unfortunate that all DVDs don't come with both sound formats, because I have to recalibrate things every time I switch disks.

- Calibrating by ear is very inaccurate; I always ended up with the center overwhelming the rest of the speakers. Of course having it jut out into center of the room on top of the TV doesn't help either. Can't wait to get that flat screen.

- Dipoles/Quadpoles never sounded as good as these direct radiating speakers. I ran through a bunch of DD & DTS demos and the fly-by effects are so much more realistic. I'm still struggling with the front sound stage, but the rear speakers are amazingly accurate. Played the Matrix hallway shooting scene multiple times with different configurations, and it is way better, even at very low volumes.

- I put a pair of Axioms M22ti's up against the two front Weberns and there's no contest, the latter were more dynamic, lively, and fuller. Just for the heck I also tried to put the VP150 up against the Webern center, and the difference was still there but it was a bit closer, although I had to do this with a single amp and fiddle with the balance each time, so my eval may not have been as accurate.

- The Outlaw audio 7125 amp is OK, but nothing to write home about. I think it puts out 190W, but in two-channel stereo mode, it was bested by my HCA-2, several other PS Audio amps, even my aging Adcom GFA-7500. I was really disappointed in discovering this.

- I'm also thinking that the Outlaw preamp may be involved in this issue. I don't have any others to compare it to, but I just have this nagging feeling that it gives up performance for features.

So that's it so far. I'm still not done fiddling, so I'll see what else I can discover over the next few days. Right now, I've been given an ultimatum by my wife that I can't buy anything more until I sell something. Actually these are her exact words: "You can't buy anything without selling something that is just as heavy!" Apparently asking her to help me move my amps out of the "kids" room, has not helped... And my retort that her clothes where hogging all my closet space, also deteriorated into a heated discussion about weight (and we weren't talking about the weight of my gear anymore):nonod:

kexodusc
07-18-2007, 02:34 PM
So that's it so far. I'm still not done fiddling, so I'll see what else I can discover over the next few days. Right now, I've been given an ultimatum by my wife that I can't buy anything more until I sell something. Actually these are her exact words: "You can't buy anything without selling something that is just as heavy!" Apparently asking her to help me move my amps out of the "kids" room, has not helped... And my retort that her clothes where hogging all my closet space, also deteriorated into a heated discussion about weight (and we weren't talking about the weight of my gear anymore):nonod:
In the interest of preserving marital bliss, I suppose I can do you a favor and take the HCA-2 or GFA-7500 off your hands. Gosh, I hope my wife doesn't find out, but I'll send you $80 for either. It's okay, maybe some day you can do me a favor...:biggrin5:

nightflier
07-20-2007, 01:48 PM
In the interest of preserving marital bliss, I suppose I can do you a favor and take the HCA-2 or GFA-7500 off your hands. Gosh, I hope my wife doesn't find out, but I'll send you $80 for either. It's okay, maybe some day you can do me a favor...:biggrin5:

Very funny, but you'll probably see some of my gear on Audiogon soon, especially if I find something decent to replace the Outlaw gear. If only I could afford that Anthem AVM50.

O'Shag
07-20-2007, 03:40 PM
I've a very very lucky audiophile friend who's wife is an avid audiophile also. She's almost buying more gear than he is!!! Brilliant. Just imagine thinking, 'I wish I could have the Sonus Fabre Ellipsas'; coming home from work, only to find that she's bought a pair and there in the living room!

nightflier
07-22-2007, 12:21 PM
NightFlier, The Primare gear is very nice... The new primare CD player got a rave review recently either in Stereophile or TAS. I did pop round to Magnolia HiFi and audition Primare gear driving Sonus Fabre Cremonas and I think the Primare gear is VG and also very pleasing to look at - as are the Cremonas.

Never mind that they have a nice CD player, Primare doesn't do HDMI (or DVI). That's a big negative in my book. If I was going to do just a sound processor, I'd consider the Cary first.

nightflier
08-14-2007, 04:36 PM
I thought I would reopen this thread. I've had some more time to tweak things some more and found out some interesting things:

- They sound best when set to Large. I know this sounds counter-intuitive, especially since they only go down to 60Hz., but somehow the blend with the sub sounds better that way. Of course it could also be that I'm doing a really bad job of configuring the sub (a very real possibility).

- As stereo speakers they are actually quite good too. I tested the front L&R with my low-powered NAD C320BEE and they sounded impressively good. Of course, when mated to the PS Audio amp, they were even better, but I'm not really satisfied with the sound of the PCA-2 in HT bypass mode, and again, I may be doing something incorrectly. The best sound is with the Plinius pre, but it does not have HT bypass. More testing needs to be done here.

- I am toying with the idea of having all the components with silver fronts, so that PS Audio GCA-MC is getting some play in my fantasy bank. Realistically, though, if I had $5K to spend, I would spend it on my kids' college tuition. Speaking of MC amps I went back to the warmer sounding Outlaw amp. I know I was debating this and had sort of settled on the Adcom amp, but after spending some more time listening to SACD, I came to the conclusion that I surround sound music does make up a large portion of what I listen to - movies be damned.

- Getting back to the movies, I did watch some good ones recently: Panic Room & 5th Element in Superbit, City of God, Master & Commander, Das Boot, Chronicles of Riddick, Troy, Bourne ID & Sprem., Saving Private Ryan, Behind Enemy lines, and a few others. Most of this was done comparing amps and I must say that although the Adcom did do a better job each time, the Outlaw was satisfactory - hence the reason I switched back.

- Interesting tidbit: The Night Mode feature on my pre/pro was conflicting with a similar feature that my Sony CD player automatically turns on as well. This is really bad and sounds like someone put a blanket over the speakers. It took me some time to figure this out and I was really getting irritated with it for some time there. It also emphasized the difference between DTS and DD (see below).

- Even after correcting for Night Mode and several other advanced settings on the DVD player's menu, DTS still sounds better than DD, although I can now live with the difference. DTS-ES and DD-EX also sound a bit better than their lesser modes. I was surprised to find this out, especially since I'm only using 5 speakers instead of 7.

- The Outlaw has several space-enhancing modes that widen and/or deepen the sound field. At first I turned all that off, but after doing some testing, I actually like the sound when the system sounds so much larger than the tiny room it's installed in. But I have to do more testing.

- I initially installed the rear speakers with the Tweeters facing out to widen the sound field. In a large room that might have worked, but the side walls were too close to make that a reality. I flipped them around and now the whole experience is much more, how should I put this, together. It just sounds like the fly-bys and the arrows/bullets are actually comming from/to where they are supposed to.

My speakers are mounted too high, and that's a big problem because I really can't lower them because of the beams that support them behind the drywall. This is OK in the rear, but the fronts may need to be angled downwards, and I haven't the foggiest on how to do this w/o weakening the wall-mounting brackets. Once I get the TV, I'll probably mount the center speaker underneath it and that should help. But I wish I would have planned that out a little better. One thing I can say about these speakers is that they do not have good up/down dispersion, something I was able to confirm with the center speaker as it is mounted sideways and thus lacks good left/right dispersion. Fortunately there, the Outlaw amp allows me to correct for that by blending it with the L&R speakers somewhat.

- Someone had mentioned that these speakers could sound bright. That is true, and with the Adcom amp, that's even more true. But in thinking about live performances that I've been to recently, this character may actually be more accurate to the live sound. Maybe I've been so spoiled by warm smooth sound that I've forgotten that the live stuff is actually brighter than what I typically listen to. I'm taming that with the Outlaw amp. I'm also experimenting with some home-made sound-wave absorbing options like hanging canvas artwork in strategic locations around the room and hanging curtains along both side walls. Once the LCD TV is in place, I'll also put a rug on the floor in front of the TV.

Well that's all for now. Let me know if anything stands out that I should change or rethink. I'm also going to try out Mapleshade Clearview Golden Parallel cables for the rear speakers to see if that improves things. If it doesn't they will refund me the money, so we'll see.

Woochifer
08-14-2007, 05:50 PM
Very cool! The Weberns and Schonbergs are probably the best sounding on-wall speakers I've heard to date. Good to hear that they are working out (aside from the height issues and bass matching).

A few random things to insert ...

I always thought that DTS did not allow for dynamic range compression (i.e., night mode), so comparing DD with DTS with the night mode turned on could exaggerate any differences that already exist between the tracks. Also, most DD tracks are encoded with a dialog normalization offset, which has the net effect of making them sound softer than the DTS track. In that case, you should raise the DD level by ~4db to level match them to the DTS track (depending on the dialog normalization setting used). Also, if you're using an older processor, you should use a test disc to level match the LFE tracks -- until about 3 or 4 years ago, it was fairly common for DD and DTS to have a 10 db difference in the default LFE levels (on my receiver, I have to boost the DTS LFE level by 10 db in order to match it to the DD LFE).

With the EX/ES engaged, you're likely hearing a "virtual" surround backfill with the surround speakers. I found that it does help with filling in the back soundfield, but on my receiver at least it tends to blunt the overall clarity somewhat compared to playing the track in native 5.1.

As far as the bass goes, I would venture to guess that your subwoofer has a room-induced interaction causing peaking and/or cancellations at certain bass frequencies. By setting the speakers to large, you're letting the other speakers fill in the frequency gaps that might exist with the subwoofer. This would be a good time to try some measuring and parametric EQing with the sub. An equalized sub will allow for tighter integration with the other speakers when set to small.

Feanor
08-15-2007, 03:07 AM
So I finally installed a 5-pack of Webern speakers that I had purchased when the gray aluminum series were being discontinued at Magnolia. ...

I guess it's fitting that Vienna Acoustics name some of it speakers after the "Second Vienna School", viz. Schoenberg, Webern, Berg. (And other composers who were sometime Vienna residents.) But my question to Nightflier and other Vienna owners is: Do your recall ever hearing a composition by any member of the Second Vienna School? If so, how many records of their works do you own?

I'd venture to say that the aforemetioned composers are pretty much the purview of hard-core classical lovers, such as me, and not all of us for that matter.

BTW, the Vienna Acoustics website is one of the most aggrevating that I've ever visited. I never did find a simple list of their products.

kexodusc
08-15-2007, 05:35 AM
I thought I would reopen this thread. I've had some more time to tweak things some more and found out some interesting things:

- They sound best when set to Large. I know this sounds counter-intuitive, especially since they only go down to 60Hz., but somehow the blend with the sub sounds better that way. Of course it could also be that I'm doing a really bad job of configuring the sub (a very real possibility).

The culprit here is sometimes the filter the processor uses on the speakers/sub. The slopes are often to shallow (2nd order, even 3rd order is insufficient IMO) and assymetrical - I see 2nd order filters on the HP side, 3rd and 4th order on the LP). Sometimes it's quite a challenge to get the range between 60-120 Hz to jive right.



- The Outlaw has several space-enhancing modes that widen and/or deepen the sound field. At first I turned all that off, but after doing some testing, I actually like the sound when the system sounds so much larger than the tiny room it's installed in. But I have to do more testing.

I'm a big advocate of "good" DSP's for movies. When done right they aren't destructive at all, and just enhance the experience. A lot of movie tracks just don't reproduce the same way in home theaters as they do in movie theaters. DSP's are a nice option.
For music, they're fun every now and then I guess, but I rarely find any I like better than no processing.


- Someone had mentioned that these speakers could sound bright. That is true, and with the Adcom amp, that's even more true. But in thinking about live performances that I've been to recently, this character may actually be more accurate to the live sound. Maybe I've been so spoiled by warm smooth sound that I've forgotten that the live stuff is actually brighter than what I typically listen to. I'm taming that with the Outlaw amp. I'm also experimenting with some home-made sound-wave absorbing options like hanging canvas artwork in strategic locations around the room and hanging curtains along both side walls. Once the LCD TV is in place, I'll also put a rug on the floor in front of the TV.

Well you're not alone here - what the old guard of audiophiles often call cold, analytical, bright, etc is exactly what I hear whenever I see a concert, go to a jazz bar, etc. Live performances are, well, lively and anything but warm. Problem is the harshness of bad recordings can be rather unpleasant on neutral/bright sounding gear, warm equipment is more forgiving. You choose your compromise.
Warmth might be a pleasant sound to some people. To me it's anything but real. I associate "warm" with "unnatural" restrained. There's no right or wrong of course - maybe my hearing is more or less sensitive to certain frequency ranges. I have tin ears according to one SET loving friend of mine.

I think a lot of it is conditioning too. When you get into this hobby you basically are told what amps/brands are good and bad - there's a lot of warm sounding gear that continues to be popular. I believe at least some of this is attributable to the distortion induced warmth a lot tube amps exhibited. There was a real backlash on SS gear at first by some people despite ruler flat measurements - it sounded relatively bright and cold, and wasn't what people were used to. You're fortunate to have enough gear to try and find the right combo for your preferences.

nightflier
08-15-2007, 12:03 PM
I guess it's fitting that Vienna Acoustics name some of it speakers after the "Second Vienna School", viz. Schoenberg, Webern, Berg. (And other composers who were sometime Vienna residents.) But my question to Nightflier and other Vienna owners is: Do your recall ever hearing a composition by any member of the Second Vienna School? If so, how many records of their works do you own?

I'd venture to say that the aforemetioned composers are pretty much the purview of hard-core classical lovers, such as me, and not all of us for that matter.

BTW, the Vienna Acoustics website is one of the most aggrevating that I've ever visited. I never did find a simple list of their products.

I have two Schoenberg CDs. I also have some Berg piano recordings. It's definitely not divertimento fare. What I do enjoy about them, though, is the parallels with modern abstract art. Think of listening to Alban Berg's Lyric Suite for Orchestra (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000031WYL001004/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_004/105-7779024-9738011) while admiring Kandinsky's Black Spot I, at the Hermitage. Or how about listening to Schoenberg's Three Piano Pieces, Op.11 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-pop-up/B000058BGZ001010/ref=mu_sam_wma_001_010/105-7779024-9738011) while walking through Serra's Matter of Time in Bilbao (http://www.guggenheim-bilbao.es/ingles/exposiciones/permanente/materia_tiempo/materia_tiempo.htm)?
For those who like Jazz, there are also some very interesting cross-over themes between Schoenberg's theories and modern, well, also traditional, Jazz.

But I think what you're really asking is how does Mr. Webern sound on these Weberns? There you caught me. I haven't even thought about listening to Schoenberg, Webern, or Berg on these speakers, and I should have. I'll definitely add that to my next audition and tweaking session. regarding the naming, that is precisely what Vienna was thinking, according to Sumiko. These being modern, aluminum speakers, necessitating a departure from the Bach-Mozart-Beethoven old-timer nomenclature, Vienna had to come up with something that set them apart - so they dug up these fellow countrymen, LOL. And given the relative obscurity of Schoenberg-Webern-Berg in most venues (think iTunes), one could almost argue that these speakers may have bumped sales for their recordings a tad. I purchased mine some time before, though, well before I even knew about these speakers. It was during my that-discordant-modern-stuff-doesn't-suck-after-all phase, and so I started to explore the post-Bartok catalog.

So let's dust off my Schoenberg and Berg CDs. Let's see how long I can enjoy these before the wife & kids leave the house in disgust....

BTW, this weekend we're having friends over to watch LOTR-ROTK, ext. ed. - the battle scenes should be fun.

topspeed
08-15-2007, 02:55 PM
Nightflier,

I have to compliment you on two things:

1) Your posts are always written in a manner that brings both a smile to my face and knowledge to my brain. There's a certain self-depricating flow to your posts that is very enjoyable. Loved the quote from your wife! :lol: Well done.

2) The amount of gear you possess is mind boggling! If you don't want to send Kex some of your gear, I'll be happy to relieve you of your burden. I'll be in SoCal all the time for 'SC games, so just let know when to stop by and I'll bring my truck. :)

Feanor
08-15-2007, 03:39 PM
I have two Schoenberg CDs. I also have some Berg piano recordings. It's definitely not divertimento fare. What I do enjoy about them, though, is the parallels with modern abstract art.
...
So let's dust off my Schoenberg and Berg CDs. Let's see how long I can enjoy these before the wife & kids leave the house in disgust....
...

I wish you every enjoyment, which I'm sure the Weberns can deliver.

Although I've listened to the odd atonal piece going back decades, it's really only the last 2-3 years that I've started to actually enjoy S,W&B. It's fun to listen to something a bit challenging once in a while. You have to give these works your attention; they're not for background music for the most part -- not divertimenti.

But as I open your response to my response I was actually listening to Webern's Five Movements for Strings and enjoying it. And at this very moment I'm listening to Thomas Ades' Chamber Symphony, Op.2. I'm fairly big fan of Elliot Carter, not so much of Pierre Boulez, and not at all of Iannis Xenakis.

Woochifer
08-15-2007, 03:41 PM
BTW, the Vienna Acoustics website is one of the most aggrevating that I've ever visited. I never did find a simple list of their products.

Their website is a textbook example of why I HATE Flash-enabled websites! Much of the site is unreadable and you have to wait forever for those animated icons to do their thing before moving onto what you were looking for in the first place, which is basic product information. Just give me a thoughtfully laid out website that takes me to what I'm looking for with minimal fuss.

nightflier
08-17-2007, 05:03 PM
Wooch,

I agree that the Vienna website is irritating. If the music that comes blaring out was Schoenberg, I think that would pretty much seal the coffin for it LOL.

The rumor is that they are re-designing it, but that's been the rumor for a while. Some other websites that have been crappy for years, despite having excellent products, are Odyssey Audio (http://www.odysseyaudio.com) and Von Schweikert (http://www.vonschweikert.com/_products.htm).

As a former Flash animator, I guess what is most irritating to me is that Flash sites are never timed to be intuitive, almost as if the person designing the site wasn't well trained. NHT is another example of good design, but poor timing (http://nhthifi.com/2006/s-s-ultimate.html). It's unfortunate that Flash is getting a bad rap because of bad designers.

PeruvianSkies
08-17-2007, 09:54 PM
- The difference between DTS and DD is much more pronounced. And I now like DTS a whole lot more - bass is tighter, sound is crisper all around. It's really unfortunate that all DVDs don't come with both sound formats, because I have to recalibrate things every time I switch disks.



(In my best Flava Flav voice) Yeeeeah boyyyy. People like myself have been promoting DTS w/ DVD since the early days and I still stand behind DTS 110%. Some say it's practically the same, but once you get a quality system in place...the difference is brought to life.

PeruvianSkies
08-17-2007, 09:57 PM
What are you using CD/SACD-wise to play your discs??? Are you using 5.1 analog jacks or the HDMI cable?

nightflier
08-20-2007, 04:53 PM
What are you using CD/SACD-wise to play your discs??? Are you using 5.1 analog jacks or the HDMI cable?

I was one of the first ones on the block with SACD, so mine's an oldie: the Sony DVP-NS755v. Not exactly the latest & greatest, but I was so proud to buy that sucker back then that I've just stuck with it - kind of not wanting to sell your first car. I bought it new, after months of research and for the money at the time, it was the best bang-for-the-buck. And to be honest, it does not sound half bad.

Yes, I'm using the 5.1 analog outs. I even switch over to them sometimes when I'm watching a movie and that doesn't sound half-bad either, although I like the configurability of the coax digital in some cases. I've long suspected that my cables were not that good, but I've swapped them out before and really haven't noticed much of a difference, either with coax or analog.

Long story short, I need a new universal player. I've been holding off because of the HD/BR battles and because SACD isn't all that popular on these models. I almost bought a Denon 3910 about 2 years ago when GG was going out of business. Then I set my sights on searching for a second-hand McCormack UDP-1, because a friend of mine has one that I really like. But the thought of buying a $2K device with moving parts that was used, was a little more risk than I wanted to take on. Now I'm back on an HD/BR kick and I would say I'm leaning about 60% BR. But I'm also curious about what Denon comes up with this fall.

Truth-be-told I'm completely undecided and will keep spinning disks on my Sony for now. As long as it keeps ticking, I can wait it out - format wars be damned!

PeruvianSkies
08-20-2007, 07:45 PM
I was one of the first ones on the block with SACD, so mine's an oldie: the Sony DVP-NS755v. Not exactly the latest & greatest, but I was so proud to buy that sucker back then that I've just stuck with it - kind of not wanting to sell your first car. I bought it new, after months of research and for the money at the time, it was the best bang-for-the-buck. And to be honest, it does not sound half bad.

Yes, I'm using the 5.1 analog outs. I even switch over to them sometimes when I'm watching a movie and that doesn't sound half-bad either, although I like the configurability of the coax digital in some cases. I've long suspected that my cables were not that good, but I've swapped them out before and really haven't noticed much of a difference, either with coax or analog.

Long story short, I need a new universal player. I've been holding off because of the HD/BR battles and because SACD isn't all that popular on these models. I almost bought a Denon 3910 about 2 years ago when GG was going out of business. Then I set my sights on searching for a second-hand McCormack UDP-1, because a friend of mine has one that I really like. But the thought of buying a $2K device with moving parts that was used, was a little more risk than I wanted to take on. Now I'm back on an HD/BR kick and I would say I'm leaning about 60% BR. But I'm also curious about what Denon comes up with this fall.

Truth-be-told I'm completely undecided and will keep spinning disks on my Sony for now. As long as it keeps ticking, I can wait it out - format wars be damned!

Yeah, well after owning the Denon 2910 and having played around with the 3910, they are both awesome machines. I will also be curious what they come out with next!

drseid
08-21-2007, 02:35 PM
OK, I've had some time to run the system through its paces. I also took the time to calibrate everything with my RS sound level meter and the Sound & Vision setup DVD. Here's what I've discovered so far:

- The speakers are a touch too high on the walls. I really can't change this now, and I like the fact that my little ones can't reach them yet, but I didn't take into account that when I recline the lazy boys, they drop my head down about a foot and back about a foot and a half. If anyone is setting up their system in front of reclining chairs, that's probably something that shouldn't be ignored. I also will be looking to mount the center channel under the TV (instead of on top) , and that should smooth out the front image, I hope.

- The difference between DTS and DD is much more pronounced. And I now like DTS a whole lot more - bass is tighter, sound is crisper all around. It's really unfortunate that all DVDs don't come with both sound formats, because I have to recalibrate things every time I switch disks.

- Calibrating by ear is very inaccurate; I always ended up with the center overwhelming the rest of the speakers. Of course having it jut out into center of the room on top of the TV doesn't help either. Can't wait to get that flat screen.

- Dipoles/Quadpoles never sounded as good as these direct radiating speakers. I ran through a bunch of DD & DTS demos and the fly-by effects are so much more realistic. I'm still struggling with the front sound stage, but the rear speakers are amazingly accurate. Played the Matrix hallway shooting scene multiple times with different configurations, and it is way better, even at very low volumes.

- I put a pair of Axioms M22ti's up against the two front Weberns and there's no contest, the latter were more dynamic, lively, and fuller. Just for the heck I also tried to put the VP150 up against the Webern center, and the difference was still there but it was a bit closer, although I had to do this with a single amp and fiddle with the balance each time, so my eval may not have been as accurate.

- The Outlaw audio 7125 amp is OK, but nothing to write home about. I think it puts out 190W, but in two-channel stereo mode, it was bested by my HCA-2, several other PS Audio amps, even my aging Adcom GFA-7500. I was really disappointed in discovering this.

- I'm also thinking that the Outlaw preamp may be involved in this issue. I don't have any others to compare it to, but I just have this nagging feeling that it gives up performance for features.

So that's it so far. I'm still not done fiddling, so I'll see what else I can discover over the next few days. Right now, I've been given an ultimatum by my wife that I can't buy anything more until I sell something. Actually these are her exact words: "You can't buy anything without selling something that is just as heavy!" Apparently asking her to help me move my amps out of the "kids" room, has not helped... And my retort that her clothes where hogging all my closet space, also deteriorated into a heated discussion about weight (and we weren't talking about the weight of my gear anymore):nonod:

Congrats on you new toys Nightflier. Hope you have many, many years of enjoyment from them.

As to the Outlaw gear, I think you are discovering what I did when I tried to pair them with my Tylers (did not work *at all*)... Unfortunately revealing speakers really show the Outlaw gear's limitations. Love the Outlaw guys and I appreciate what they are trying to accomplish (very high bang for the buck for audio enthusiasts on a budget), but unfortunately their products really can't replace a good amp or pre-amp, IMO. I am sure once you go to a different pairing you can unlock the last bit of resolution in your Viennas.

Good luck,

---Dave