What do you think of the practice of firmware updates? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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Mr Peabody
07-09-2007, 05:46 PM
I can see this both ways but I think the trend of rushing products to market, letting the public test them and then issuing a firmware update is a concern to me. The other way to look at it is at least the companies put out a fix. But in the past we didn't have to worry about a product coming out half built. We got defects sure and hopefully they were covered under warranty or you got an exchange, but not an unfinished product for us to buy while they finish designing it. The best current example is both HD disc formats. It seems to me that the consumer electronics industry takes the public for granted at will and gets away with it. Are we that anxious to throw our money at them that we let bad practices go unchecked?

The firmware issue is just another bad practice in my book of a list. I don't want to go into the list as not to detour from my original question.

Feanor
07-09-2007, 06:10 PM
I can see this both ways but I think the trend of rushing products to market, letting the public test them and then issuing a firmware update is a concern to me. The other way to look at it is at least the companies put out a fix. But in the past we didn't have to worry about a product coming out half built. We got defects sure and hopefully they were covered under warranty or you got an exchange, but not an unfinished product ...
The firmware issue is just another bad practice in my book of a list. I don't want to go into the list as not to detour from my original question.

So many components today are program controlled with complex logic amounting to thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of lines of code. It is not easy to produce this perfectly error free: in fact it's impossible. The only control is testing, testing, testing, and this is preferable to a shoddy product. But bugs can happen despite the most thorough test; plus someone just might think of an worthwhile improvement. Firmware updates, (or software patches), are disagreeable but preferable to tossing the whole unit.

Mr Peabody
07-09-2007, 06:59 PM
I understand what you are saying and it rang a bell with computer software, however, I'm not sure I still let them off the hook. Let's look at the first gen HD players, both camps knew those machines were slow and had the bugs they did but they put them out like that anyway. These machines were expensive and people shouldn't have had to pay for a partially developed product. If anything, the first adopters should have gotten free machines and a fee for beta testing. But, instead, they paid premium price. I'm probably in left field some where because I don't hear any of the early adopters crying very loudly. It's just that the companies who put out the HD machines are certainly large enough to have a funded R&D division. They aren't working out of a garage selling the machines as is to get the funds to complete the project. The companies are greedy and they knew there was going to be a format war, it was a race to draw first blood.

Secondly, consumer electronic products have a more defined parameter, you have a machine that does a certain job and the software does a certain job within the machine, and they are all identical. A computer program I can more understand a patch, you have endless combinations of that software working with every other software and internet site on any number of computers and types of computers, there is no way to anticipate a conflict, you could test for a lifetime and still have one. But I believe the chances of this happening with a audio/video product should be negligible. You see what I mean, you have something like a DVD player, when it's finished, you hook it up, run through all the functions and it either works or it don't. There's a bug, or a not so good running feature, or it's great. What could change when I take it out of the box at home? The unit is the same as it was in the factory. Manufacturers are growing more comfortable with putting out products they know aren't right, thinking, if anyone notices, we'll fix it later attitude. Or, they want to keep the bottomline looking good, so they sell a few thousand to get some money, then fix it.

Rich-n-Texas
07-09-2007, 07:01 PM
Cell phones: I'll never give up my land line. Cell phones are (or at least were) a perfect example of manufacturers pushing their product onto the general public before it's ready. The Palm Treo is a perfect example. Bug after bug, f/w update after update. If you're asking if I like or don't like the practice... no I don't.

Luvin Da Blues
07-09-2007, 08:25 PM
So many components today are program controlled with complex logic amounting to thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of lines of code. It is not easy to produce this perfectly error free: in fact it's impossible. The only control is testing, testing, testing, and this is preferable to a shoddy product. But bugs can happen despite the most thorough test; plus someone just might think of an worthwhile improvement. Firmware updates, (or software patches), are disagreeable but preferable to tossing the whole unit.

I'm in Feanors' camp on this one.

kexodusc
07-10-2007, 05:23 AM
I can see this both ways but I think the trend of rushing products to market, letting the public test them and then issuing a firmware update is a concern to me. The other way to look at it is at least the companies put out a fix. But in the past we didn't have to worry about a product coming out half built. We got defects sure and hopefully they were covered under warranty or you got an exchange, but not an unfinished product for us to buy while they finish designing it.

While I don't doubt many companies are guilty of "rushing things to market", there's a lot of good ones still that use firmware properly.

It's irresponsible and unfair to assume firmware upgrades are only the result of incomplete products. The reality is today's electronics world has thousands of players in it. A company like Denon can't be expected to know for certain, all the time what technologies or features every other company in the industry is developing, and then predicting which of those technologies will become successfully adopted by the mainstream. And in keeping with Feanor's point, being able to readily integrate its own technology with thousands of other products 100% of time just isn't possible. The software side of the industry is infinitely more complex than it was just a few years ago.

I don't think firmware should be, or is solely about "bug fixes" either. Sometimes new capabilities are added, which is really a selling point. For example, let's say Dolby develops an upgraded algorithm to it's decoder in 2 years that improves sound quality somehow. A firmware upgrade could potentially allow users to take advantage of that. This would be a good thing.

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 05:51 AM
For example, let's say Dolby develops an upgraded algorithm to it's decoder in 2 years that improves sound quality somehow. A firmware upgrade could potentially allow users to take advantage of that. This would be a good thing.
That's a good example, but it doesn't necessarily cover all the bases. Firmware is the code that the hardware understands right, not your ears. If the hardware doesn't support the new algorithm, what has been accomplished? The Denon's of the world aren't going to retrofit your hardware. In the home computer world, I would say the f/w updates have the sole purpose of fixing bugs. I realize that gets away from the heart of the matter here, but I still find it inexcusable and nothing more than a matter of greed when companies release product before it's fully tested, but that's just me and my cynical attitude.

jocko_nc
07-10-2007, 06:08 AM
If they are now experiencing firmware problems, maybe it is because the code has now become too complex? Too much encryption, too much decoding, too much processing. Maybe the "standard" to which these devices were intended to conform was not made standard? Maybe some individuals are trying to cheat the standard? Maybe the standard is flawed. What is the purpose of the code that is causing the problems?

Seems to me there is no reason for an audio / video device to have firmware problems, unless someone is gaming the system or the system itself is a game. Sounds like the same path we went down with PC's. The bugs and inconsistencies in the code become a means to control the market and a revenue stream for the manufacturer.

God help up if the next-generation digital audio / video devices follow the PC model. I suspect there is an army of investors that wants precisely that. Me, I'll never get rid of my analog equipment.

jocko

jocko_nc
07-10-2007, 06:46 AM
Since the first phonograph and the first television, we have always known that an audio / video device we purchased would work without exception.

If you plugged your stuff into the wall, it would run on the 110 AC / 60 Hz standard. 33 1/3 rpm was the same speed everyhwere. Coax cable was coax cable. Channel 3 was channel 3. A preamp could be plugged into a power amp. VCR's worked with televisions, and televisions likewise with VCR's. CD players worked with amplifiers. Your equipment mattered and good equipment was still good equipment a decade ot three later.

Now, we digital is maturing and perhaps we are seeing a glimpse of where it is headed? If either future equipment is not truly plug-and-play or future equipment becomes dependent upon proprietary code, we are in big trouble. The equpiment becomes secondary to the code. The person who controls the code owns the market. This lesson was learned well in the evolution of the PC. Any possibility we are headed down the same path?

I recall reading an old interview attributed to Bill Gates. His envisioned a technology where the software controlled the market. To him, the PC was merely a box to hold his software. The software was the key. The computer and component manufacturers would become commodity sellers who had to conform to standards, while he alone had proprietary content. He alone could make all the other products obsolete. He alone could bury entire competitive technologies. He could protect his margins in an environment of constantly declining prices. Is that not how it played out?

I hope there is not a future Bill Gates and a future MS that will able to leverage this new technology. No doubt, there will be many who will try.

jocko

Feanor
07-10-2007, 08:05 AM
... Manufacturers are growing more comfortable with putting out products they know aren't right, thinking, if anyone notices, we'll fix it later attitude. Or, they want to keep the bottomline looking good, so they sell a few thousand to get some money, then fix it.

Though a few fixes are inevidable, producers should not release products that aren't fully tested -- unless they're clearly identified as "beta test" versions.

kexodusc
07-10-2007, 09:01 AM
On the other hand...the perceived need for firmware could be a good indicator that the industry needs some firmer standards throughout, and a bit more foresight than we've seen.

jocko_nc
07-10-2007, 09:53 AM
Absolutely, Kexo. Except maybe there is a more foresight than we know?

My cynical mind suspects that the people who are driving this technology want to avoid any real standard. A real standard for components would preclude any possibility to leverage the larger market. That is the game now. Get the product out ASAP and establish market share. Give it away, if you have to. Just get it out there. Any proprietary content then becomes established and can be used to leverage other revenue streams. I see this same process going on with all things digital. We all know the examples.

jocko

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 10:28 AM
On the other hand...the perceived need for firmware could be a good indicator that the industry needs some firmer standards throughout, and a bit more foresight than we've seen.
Amen.