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Rich-n-Texas
07-05-2007, 05:57 PM
As I type this, Ozzy's filling my head with Crazy Train. All I can say is... I hope he never dies, I truly do. One in a billion!

SlumpBuster
07-06-2007, 07:29 AM
That was a great performance. But, you know who has been seriously underated for the last 20 years? Zakk Wylde. Wylde's crunch in that VH1 performance sounded better than on the record. I still have my crappy cassette of No Rest for The Wicked and remember hearing that guitar for the first time. Amazing signature sound and one of a kind stage presence.

Plus he rocked in Steel Dragon. :D

Rich-n-Texas
07-06-2007, 07:43 AM
I tuned in while Heart were doing the first of their two songs.
I'm sorry, but I just can't picture Ann Wilson going "Crazy on You", me or anyone else for that matter in her current condition. Heart represented rock-n-roll sex appeal in their hayday, and I found it inexcusable when she let herself go the way she did. No, I'm not slighting the talent the band had (I've got 3 albums, a CD, and plenty of Heart iTunes); they rocked back in the day.

I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Genesis play too, but to me Ozzy just epitomizes what I remember most about rock-n-roll in the 70's, 80's and beyond. I wish I could adopt him. :cornut:

ForeverAutumn
07-06-2007, 08:05 AM
Heart represented rock-n-roll sex appeal in their hayday, and I found it inexcusable when she let herself go the way she did.

I hope that you're kidding. If you're not, I don't even know where to begin.... :nonod:

Rich-n-Texas
07-06-2007, 11:39 AM
I hope that you're kidding. If you're not, I don't even know where to begin.... :nonod:
What happens if I say I wasn't? :(

MindGoneHaywire
07-06-2007, 12:31 PM
Then maybe we have a better idea of what 'sex appeal' in 'rock-n-roll' means to you. Unfortunately, it's an aspect of music that leads to others, not necessarily you, prioritizing image over the music itself. Which is a slippery slope that leads to, among other things...American Idol.

Also, assuming that what you say is 'letting herself go' was within her control--I have no idea--well, she's as entitled to do that as you are to frown upon anything you perceive as the damage she may have caused to 'sex appeal' in 'rock-n-roll.' Wouldn't you say?

I think most people don't 'let themself go' in that sense. But whether or not it was by choice, maybe you could take a second to think about whether or not 'sex appeal' in 'rock-n-roll' is really that important, or should be.

It's not exactly a state secret that record labels have for quite some time applied various pressures to maintain the image of certain artists who are noted for their 'sex appeal.' That probably doesn't apply to Heart, but, who knows, it might. It's a nasty business, and that sort of practice is something that I can't see as having anything to do with music; hell, it's bad enough when it comes to models & actresses.

Mind you, I'm not saying there's something wrong with a recording artist trying to present themselves as attractively as possible. But the more that sort of thing is tied to the music in the name of 'sex appeal,' the less it ends up having to do with music. So maybe you could understand that for some people it's just not that important, and, FA might look at this very differently, and with good reason.

SlumpBuster
07-06-2007, 03:36 PM
Sex appeal is a HUGE part of rock and roll. So, before we all pile on Rich, let's go to the tape. Really, watch it first, it's worth it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBSaAxYMhC0


Okay, done? Now let's pile on Rich. Sorry, Rich, I'm missing out on the part that's not sexy about Ann Wilson. Okay, she's bigger than she was when she was 25... so where's the not sexy part? Because I know sexy (being sexy myself) and that video was sexy! Seriously, it gave me goosebumps when I first saw it.

I'd rather see Ann Wilson or Stevie Nicks comfortable in their own skin, than Jewel or Liz Phair pretending to be 20 again. That is rock 'n' roll.

bobsticks
07-06-2007, 03:49 PM
It might be appropriate to come up with different "standards of beauty" and expectations for a 57 year old woman and a 20 year old girl.




(Sheesh, I'm usually the most shallow guy in any given room :) )

Rich-n-Texas
07-06-2007, 05:41 PM
I'm going to preface any further remarks with a bit of my history here:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=22239

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=22894

And in the event you don't want to be bothered with clicking on the first link...



If I had my own website, this babelog would be the front and center page. I don't have one so I hope no one minds that I use Rave Recordings to tell my story (Mods, feel free to move it if you so choose.)

A year ago I was perusing through Rhapsody, which I used to be subscribed to, while in front of my computer listening to tunes through my Z5500's, cranked up to ear-splitting levels :thumbsup: While looking at the Bruce Springsteen album selection page, I saw at the bottom of his album list a "if you like this artist, you may like..." which contained Patti Smith's "Horses" album, so clicked on it. It brought up the album's contents as well as showing all of her albums.

At this point a flood of memories rushed into my conciousness. I was looking through my eyes while standing in the record department of Two Guy's discount department store in Cherry Hill NJ in 1979 holding "Horses" in my hand and looking at her picture (which I found out later was taken by Robert Maplethorpe). This mental image was so vivid that made me feel like I had just experienced that vision a day earlier. It was crystal clear in my mind. I remember that the next thing I did was put that album back on the shelf and then I picked up "Easter". A critisism about Patti at the time was that she was either androgenous or a flat out dyke, which those of us familiar with the 70's will recall was a curse. Yeah, she hadn't shaved her underarms, but she wasn't wearing a bra either, so I wasn't confused. The next thing I did was put that album down before anybody saw me oggling her womanhood and experiencing the natural, 19 year-old male reaction. At that point I walked away. That decision, I realized almost thirty years later was the biggest mistake I had ever made.

Patti Smith, in every sense of the word, is a poet.She, before becoming a musician, could be found at college auditoriums, theaters, and anywhere anyone would listen, reading poetry based on Aurthur Rimbaud's writings. In the months that followed my epifany I became obsessed with learning more about her. I'd spend my Friday nights following any link that had interviews, music, pictures, whatever, absorbing everything she said and did. In one recorded interview she was asked how she felt about being labelled the queen of punk. She said "punk is a derogetory term" and she seemed annoyed with the interviewer. Ca't say I blame her. Again, she's a poet.

She was born in Detroit, and when she was very young, her family moved to Philly, and finally to Woodbury Heights in South Jersey. I grew up in Westmont NJ, which was about 45 minutes away from where she grew up. Her high school, Deptford High, played my high school's football team while I was a student there in the 70's, and she went on to attend Glassboro College until she dropped out. Rumor has it she dropped out because she got pregnant. Later in life Robert Maplethorpe and her became lovers, but she ultimately married Fred (sonic) Smith, who was the lead guitarist for The MC5 (Kick Out the Jams!). Fred later died of heart disease, but the song she wrote, declaring her love for him: "Frederick", was a very prolific song and became ingrained in my subconciousness, which came to the forefront of my psyche last year when I found the album on Rhapsody, which of course I recorded. Bits of this song has played in my mind off and on throughout my life, and because of this, my weekends since last year, and for the rest of my life start with Frederick, Gloria, 'Til Victory, Because The Night (which she co-wrote with Springsteen), and everything she sung that was important in the 70's.

Patti Smith enjoys recognition throughout the world for her groundbreaking efforts in advancing women's roles in the musical arts (she received an award in recent years from a French cultural society group honoring her efforts), but unfortunately she receives little recognition here at home. Nevertheless, I will always consider her contributions an important part of everything I value in the music that I listen to.

Long live the queen!
Read it very carefully MindGoneHaywire and then understand that I WILL BE BURIED WITH MY MP3 DISC OF EVERYTHING I VALUE FROM HER. And yes, it's Friday night and I'm listening to my poet lauriate right now.

In the second link, please tell me why my remarks weren't an *issue?* then, but are now...

Next MindGoneHaywire, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to know what exactly your intention was with your post. TIA.

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

ForeverAutumn
07-06-2007, 07:01 PM
What happens if I say I wasn't? :(

To say that your comment is sexist is only the beginning. It's really much more harmful (and, as you'll see, incorrect) than that. The mindset that skinny is sexy and heavy is not is what upsets me. This is the attitude that leads so many young girls into anorexia and bulemia. It's bad enough that the media would have us all believe that if you're larger than a size 2, you're fat. When I see this attitude being reinforced by people I just get angry. Look at the majority of the population. The skinny models/actresses are the exception, not the rule. And I'd bet that most of them are not living a healthy lifestyle to stay that thin. Why can't people, famous or not, just be accepted for who they are and not labeled by their weight.

What if Ann Wilson had been a man? Would you feel the same way? Aside from the "sex appeal" which I presume would not apply for you if she were a man. Would you still be concerned about a man "letting himself go"?

In Ann Wilson's case, do some research...


It's not exactly a state secret that record labels have for quite some time applied various pressures to maintain the image of certain artists who are noted for their 'sex appeal.' That probably doesn't apply to Heart, but, who knows, it might.

The pressure to maintain the 'sex appeal' image did apply to Heart. Or should I say it applied to the women in Heart.

Ann didn't just "let herself go". She has struggled with her weight all her life. In the days of her "sex appeal" she was starving herself so that she could be thin and acceptable. And she was being rewarded for this terribly unhealthy lifestyle. Thank god she came to her senses and stopped. Otherwise, we might be having a different discussion...one about how tragic her early death from anorexia was. Ever heard of Karen Carpenter?

Read this (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/26/48hours/main530882.shtml).

Skinny does not come naturally to most people. And it's a scientific fact that it's harder for women to lose weight than it is for men. And it becomes even more difficult for any of us to lose weight as we get older. So it really pisses me off when a man comments that a woman "let herself go". Trust me, most 40-yr-old women would love to have the bodies that they had in their 20's. You know what? It's not gonna happen.

Now, that's not to imply that there aren't people who do 'let themselves go'. There are lots of them. But it's not an assumption that any of us should be making. There are often other factors to consider.

Too bad Peter Frampton lost all his hair. I remember when he was really sexy. It's a shame he let himself go like that.

MindGoneHaywire
07-06-2007, 07:08 PM
Gee, I'm so sorry I tried to address yr seeming confusion after FA's post. If you must know, I never read the thread from the 2nd link; after years on this board, I don't always have the time for retread threads, and skipped it. Had I seen yr post I might've said something about it, but more likely not. It's something that I wouldn't necessarily take the initiative to address in every case where one comes into contact with it. It doesn't seem worth it, and the possibility that what FA responded to had been tongue-in-cheek appeared to be negated by yr response. In this case, I thought it worth a few minutes to put some thoughts down that might put some things in perspective.

I didn't see much of yr Patti Smith post either, mostly because I'm not a huge fan after Horses, but also because after Please Kill Me, I've read more than enough about her to satisfy myself. It seems like you're presenting it as some kind of defense to yr words on Heart, which I don't really get, but whatever.

Unless you're dabbling in some sort of cryptic irony, yr post in response to FA left me with the impression that you'd be surprised someone might react as she did. Addressing that was the intent of my post.

Yr objection is noted.

Rich-n-Texas
07-06-2007, 07:27 PM
Whatever pal

While you're still watching...

Stuff your ****in high-n-mighty attitude up your ****in ASS!

MindGoneHaywire
07-06-2007, 07:38 PM
Whatever pal

While you're still watching...

Stuff your ****in high-n-mighty attitude up your ****in ASS!


Nice post.

You asked.

That's the 2nd answer you didn't like in 2 days. I must be doing something right.

In the meantime...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agl4IvNnQPo

Rich-n-Texas
07-06-2007, 07:50 PM
Nice post.
Thanks.


You asked.

That's the 2nd answer you didn't like in 2 days. I must be doing something right.
Right. Just what I thought. An axe to grind.



In the meantime...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Agl4IvNnQPo

Sorry, I don't give youtube much of my time, it's too valuable.

ForeverAutumn
07-07-2007, 04:00 AM
Whatever pal

While you're still watching...

Stuff your ****in high-n-mighty attitude up your ****in ASS!

Now that response seems uncalled for.

I also didn't understand how the Patti Smith comments were connected here. Feel free to further explain the point that you were trying to make...or not. Your choice.

As for the Ann Wilson comment in the Favorite Bands post. For some reason, I can't open the link, so I did a search for the thread this morning. Had I read the post at the time, I would certainly have said something about it then. Since I generally don't enjoy female vocalists, I didn't read that thread.

However, now that I have read it, MGH is right. You've only proven that your comments regarding Ann Wilson were serious and not tongue in cheek. I know that this thread started in good fun and has taken a rather serious turn. But, if nothing else, I hope that my post has, at least, taught you that it's not fair to judge a book by it's cover, there's often more to the story than you know.

ForeverAutumn
07-07-2007, 04:17 AM
Right. Just what I thought. An axe to grind.

You've responded to MGH but ignored everyone else's comments on this issue. Are you sure that you aren't the one with the axe?

You know, it was Friday night...you could just say it was the booze talking. It wouldn't be the first time something like that happened around here.

MindGoneHaywire
07-07-2007, 11:30 PM
You've responded to MGH but ignored everyone else's comments on this issue. Are you sure that you aren't the one with the axe?

You know, it was Friday night...you could just say it was the booze talking. It wouldn't be the first time something like that happened around here.

Good post FA, thank you for pointing this out. I'm not looking for a fight. But I'm not going to back down if I see something that I think is worth responding to, providing I have the time.

I liked the intent of the Patti Smith post in its original context, there's not enough of that here, but after several years people tend to get burned out, so we tend to post more in fits & starts.

As an aside to try to return to the original point, the Muffs, a band I like a lot, has a sex appeal quotient far higher than Sleater-Kinney, to me, a band I don't much at all. But if the opposite were true...so what?

I think the comment upthread about Liz Phair & Jewel trying to pose as 20 again was a spot-on, insightful remark.

Again, I don't have much problem with the mindset that places a priority on sex appeal in rock'n'roll, and there's nothing wrong with the sex appeal amongst the Blondies, Pat Benatars, Suzi Quatros, Wendy O. Wiilliams, Madonna, Exene, Lydia Lunch, Avril Lavigne, et al. But I think that looking at things that way is a point of view that can only be helped if someone's willing to look at the reality of the business. From the point of view of the packaging, the exploitation, the pressures, and what focusing on the image leads to. If you're willing to take those things into consideration, I have NO problem with that mindset whatsoever, because at least you're acknowledging that it exists, and some measure of cause-and-effect when you get into the progression that does in fact lead to the reasons why American Idol is popular. If you're at least aware of these things, then I think it's reasonable to say you're not necessarily contributing to the sexism or ageism or promoting the idea that female rock singers represent attractive sexual ideals. It's just a matter of thinking about it, and I say that's not too much to ask. The stuff about leading to those diseases is of course a factor, which is why I think an adolescent-type view of female rock stars--or at least embracing memories of that view--doesn't necessarily have to contribute to that. And I don't think asking a woman who would understandably be offended by this is all that unreasonable, either, provided the woman in question understand that a fan may be willing to take these factors into consideration.

A joke from around 15 years ago: Why did the Riot Grrrl cross the street? To s*ck my...

...you get the idea.

In the meantime, that YouTube link is a rare Patti Smith clip I've linked to before on this board, that I thought would work well as a personal salutation to Mr. Happy. Oh, well. His loss.

ForeverAutumn
07-08-2007, 05:17 AM
It's funny that you mention Madonna when discussing sex appeal. I had a conversation with a co-worker last week where she said that she thought that Madonna had lost her sex appeal because she was too muscular now! She looked masculine in her opinion. Whereas I think that her physical fitness increases her sex appeal (can you believe that she'll be 49 next month?!). Just goes to show that we all have different ideas about what's sexy.

For the record, Rich PM'd me and explained his position. I now understand why he made the comment that he did and, after further explanation, his reasons were not as insensitive as I interpreted. We still don't agree on the issue, but that's okay. We're both entitled to our opinions.

And just to show that I haven't lost my sense of humour either, here's an Onion article that I thought was pretty funny... http://www.theonion.com/content/node/40998

Rich-n-Texas
07-08-2007, 07:56 AM
I'll stop back later. Haven't had my Wheaties yet...

Rich-n-Texas
07-09-2007, 06:28 AM
First of all, I have a little trouble with someone who's username provokes an image of a person with some serious psychological shortcomings trying to analyze my thoughts. How does that make you feel MindGoneHaywire? What do you see in the picture I'm holding in front of me?



Then maybe we have a better idea of what 'sex appeal' in 'rock-n-roll' means to you. Unfortunately, it's an aspect of music that leads to others, not necessarily you, prioritizing image over the music itself. Which is a slippery slope that leads to, among other things...American Idol.

Also, assuming that what you say is 'letting herself go' was within her control--I have no idea--well, she's as entitled to do that as you are to frown upon anything you perceive as the damage she may have caused to 'sex appeal' in 'rock-n-roll.' Wouldn't you say?
Number one: I don't recall ForeverAutumn ever having a problem speaking her mind on her own. You seem to think that's a role you have the right to play.

Number two. Where do you get off thinking that you can make assumptions on my behalf?


I think most people don't 'let themself go' in that sense. But whether or not it was by choice, maybe you could take a second to think about whether or not 'sex appeal' in 'rock-n-roll' is really that important, or should be.

It's not exactly a state secret that record labels have for quite some time applied various pressures to maintain the image of certain artists who are noted for their 'sex appeal.' That probably doesn't apply to Heart, but, who knows, it might. It's a nasty business, and that sort of practice is something that I can't see as having anything to do with music; hell, it's bad enough when it comes to models & actresses.

Mind you, I'm not saying there's something wrong with a recording artist trying to present themselves as attractively as possible. But the more that sort of thing is tied to the music in the name of 'sex appeal,' the less it ends up having to do with music. So maybe you could understand that for some people it's just not that important, and, FA might look at this very differently, and with good reason.
Why do I get the feeling you were either beat up a lot when you were a kid because you didn't know when to STFU, or you didn't have any friends because of your obnoxious and egotistical attitude.


Gee, I'm so sorry I tried to address yr seeming confusion after FA's post. If you must know, I never read the thread from the 2nd link; after years on this board, I don't always have the time for retread threads, and skipped it. Had I seen yr post I might've said something about it, but more likely not. It's something that I wouldn't necessarily take the initiative to address in every case where one comes into contact with it. It doesn't seem worth it, and the possibility that what FA responded to had been tongue-in-cheek appeared to be negated by yr response. In this case, I thought it worth a few minutes to put some thoughts down that might put some things in perspective.
That has to be the most arrogant and insensitive body of text I've read so far in this forum. "After years on this board, I don't always have the time for retread threads" There you go with the ego again. You have time to go into these long *Holyer Than Thou* diatribes about other people's opinions though don't ya?

But then you turn around and say:


I liked the intent of the Patti Smith post in its original context, there's not enough of that here, but after several years people tend to get burned out, so we tend to post more in fits & starts.
So which is it? In the digital electronics industry we call that a 'flip-flop'.


It seems like you're presenting it as some kind of defense to yr words on Heart, which I don't really get, but whatever.
You're wrong. My intention was to remind the readers of something that I had already established about myself in April. It should be crystal clear to everyone that not only am I NOT sexist, but that I'm also very passionate about Patti Smith's contributions and the fact that she almost single handedly changed the image the male dominated industry had of women in Rock.

I'm not in the habit of constantly re-establishing my personality and reputation (It's all on paper here), but I felt it proper to move it here to keep my remarks afterwards in perspective.

As far as your youtube link... no new ground here. If you had followed my first link you'd have seen the in-line video Davey shared with us in post #3. I went to the youtube site and dug around after I watched it.



In the meantime, that YouTube link is a rare Patti Smith clip I've linked to before on this board, that I thought would work well as a personal salutation to Mr. Happy. Oh, well. His loss.
I treated that with the same indifference you treated my *from the heart* thoughts about Patti. But thanks just the same.

In summation:
IMO you should start your week by reading this thread: http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=22461 (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=22461)<O:p</O:p
especially post #13. It seems like I'm not the only one who's got your personality pegged.