Holey smokes do some of you guys pour a lot of cash into this hobby. [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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GMichael
07-03-2007, 08:03 AM
After reading through the power cord thread, I see that some of you spend more on power cables than I spent on all 3 of my systems put together. Whenever I listen to any of my systems, I'm still overwhelmed by how good they sound. They seem incredible to me. They produce emotional responses on a daily bases.
What must your systems sound like? Will I burst into tears the moment they are turned on? Can they really be 10 or 20 times better? I just can't imagine how good a system like that would sound.
I have had a chance to hear a few hi-fi systems. I got to hear the Maggie 3.6's a few years back, as well as most of the Totem line. These were driven by Moon products with wires that looked like ribbon cables. They were incredible, but still don't match the cash I see spent around here. I've heard a few other systems up to about the $10k range, but nothing over that. What does a $100k system sound like?
Please tell me, how good can it get?

Feanor
07-03-2007, 08:18 AM
GM,

l, (like you apparently), might never get to hear, much less own, a $100K system. But you must surely know the answer: no, the $100K system is emphatically not 20x better than the $5K system. The rule of diminishing returns applies to hifi as to most everything else.

Nevertheless there are people with the means to spend 20x as much for a 10% (or whatever) improvement in sound quality. Does this prove poor judgement on their part? Certainly not: preceived value is in the mind of the buyer, and as long has his or her family isn't going hungry, we have no basis for criticism. Envy is another matter. :o

GMichael
07-03-2007, 08:31 AM
I can understand if someone has mega bucks and 100k on a system doesn't even dent their pocketbook. But how good must these systems sound? Can I hear one before I die?

Please?

Resident Loser
07-03-2007, 08:32 AM
What does a $100k system sound like?
Please tell me, how good can it get?

...it sounds like you need your head examined...No, not you GM, but anyone who would spend that kinda' money IMO...

Chances are it will allow you to play louder...but since I cruise around 85dB max, it's just overkill...

It may have greater low-end extension, but I can rattle the walls with some pure, undistorted Bach pedal notes or ELP shenanigans and my system cost approx $5k including the two tape decks, EQs and ambience recovery hardware...

And again all the soundstage and depth? If it ain't in the source, $200K ain't gonna' put it there...in fact if it does, it could actually be considered a form of distortion...

Said it before and I'll say it again, for <$1000, a 2ch system can be put together that will provide probably 95% or so of what can be extracted from most source material...ten X or one hundred X that expense won't give you 10X or 100X "better" sound...It may be hand-made, look superiffic and have high-end cachet, but that's about it...

jimHJJ(...'n' that's the troof...)

Bernd
07-03-2007, 09:02 AM
.....with Jim (how is it going RL) on the last point. For about $1000 one can have a decent sounding system. As I type this I sit in my study and listen to a Teac/Wharfedale set up. A smidgen over 1K.
And it sounds just fine.
I think the main difference when moving up to better equipment is best explained like this.
With a 1K system you look through slightly dirty windows on a cloudy day, with a high end set up the windows are clean and plenty of B.O.T..
A 100k system is certainly not 100 x better than a 1K system or is it...? The answer I am sure is answered by the man who puts his money where his mouth is. To him it surely is.
And of course pride of ownership comes into it. Also the ability to listen plays a large part.

To me all HiFi is over priced. There I said it.

Peace

:9:

GMichael
07-03-2007, 09:11 AM
...
To me all HiFi is over priced. There I said it.

Peace

:9:

Seems like you have taken that first step to recovery.

Hello, my name is Michael, and I'm addicted to music.

Bernd
07-03-2007, 09:14 AM
Seems like you have taken that first step to recovery.

Hello, my name is Michael, and I'm addicted to music.


....I am a lost cause, beyond any help.

topspeed
07-03-2007, 09:19 AM
Whenever I listen to any of my systems, I'm still overwhelmed by how good they sound. They seem incredible to me. They produce emotional responses on a daily bases. This is all that matters. As long as the listener is happy, the product is worth the price paid.


What must your systems sound like? Does it matter?
Will I burst into tears the moment they are turned on? Only if I've got Old Yeller playing on the HT.
Can they really be 10 or 20 times better?Depends on your point of view and how you prioritize things.
I just can't imagine how good a system like that would sound. You don't have to imagine, just go visit some hifi store in your town or when you're on vacation.

What does a $100k system sound like?Just like a $1k system...only moreso.

Please tell me, how good can it get?You could blow an entire first round pick's signing bonus, meticulously match each piece with complete synergy, build a dedicated and tuned listening room...












...and it still wouldn't consistently replicate a live event.

GMichael
07-03-2007, 09:20 AM
....I am a lost cause, beyond any help.

I'm slipping fast. I'll be with you soon enough.

Like to get "these" speakers. $2k
With "that" finish. $500 more
And the center and surrounds will need to match. $2k
But then I'll need "those" amps. $2k + $3k.
And why have a receiver as a pre-amp. $3k
And what about wires ??
and ?
and?
?
?
?
.
.
.
.
.

kexodusc
07-03-2007, 09:23 AM
What RL said X 2.

Yeah, most of the megabucks systems I've heard have been pretty darn good - but only incrementally better than systems that cost a fraction.

As with anything in life, I love the fact there are companies that cater to the indulgers out there. I only object when people think just because they spend more money they are more knowledgeable or more of an authority on the subject. I have respect for the people who manage to spend less, yet achieve better sound.

At some point this industry divided itself into two kinds of people:
1) Those who derive a great amount of satisfaction from their systems and are virtually taken to the performance when listening, and;
2) Those who have become gear-heads, who draw as much satisfaction in seeking, comparing, purchasing, and showing their pieces of equipment as the guy in #1 does listening to music on his.

A former co-worker and friend of mine made a good point to me a few years ago. He's got some wicked stereo gear including Conrad Johnson, Krell, Thiel etc that he accumulated over 2 decades...(lost it all in a house fire once and had to repurchase, but that's a different story)...I remarked how his system cost 4 or 5 times my stereo's price at the time - then he responded with a neat trick. Add up the cost of all your CD's, LP's (DVD's for HT I guess) Then divide that by your system cost. If the number is greater than 1, you're probably okay.
If the number is less than 1, you might need to re-think your priorities.

The magic ratio number isn't important, but the concept is.
Does your system cost more than the sum of all the media you purchased it to play? (good poll question?). This is a good indicator of what you derive more satisfaction out of.

O'Shag
07-03-2007, 09:30 AM
I agree with Feanor.

Bernd, your not the only lost cause.

Differences can be profound. I've heard some high-performance / expensive components, and there's no doubt many can deliver a more accurate and meaningful rendering of the recording. The $145,000 Acapella Triolon Excaliburs driven by einstein electronics is one of my fantasy systems. The MBL radiostrahler driven by MBL electronics could be another. Thats not to say audio nirvana can't be experienced for a lot less, because it can. Having said that, I don't think you can get 90% of the performance of the high-end systems for 5k. 15k might do, with some carefully chosen components on the used market with a decent pre-amp, amp, speakers, source, interconnects/speaker cables/ and power conditioning (maybe including powercords). If Home Theatre is included, then your looking at dropping a lot more cash. Its when it comes to tweaks though, including aftermarket powercords, that things can get a little looney tunes, especially from the perspective of 'she who must be obeyed' - just kidding; my missus is a gem.

Bernd
07-03-2007, 09:38 AM
The magic ratio number isn't important, but the concept is.
Does your system cost more than the sum of all the media you purchased it to play? (good poll question?). This is a good indicator of what you derive more satisfaction out of.

.....my back up. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Why can't somebody with a small music collection enjoy it on a multi k system? Why must the cost of the software always outstrip the hardware to qualify for membership to the true music lovers club? And what if you only listen to live broadcasts on radio?

Peace

:16:

topspeed
07-03-2007, 09:39 AM
Does your system cost more than the sum of all the media you purchased it to play? (good poll question?). This is a good indicator of what you derive more satisfaction out of.Best question I've seen on AR.

Ever.

Feanor
07-03-2007, 09:43 AM
...

At some point this industry divided itself into two kinds of people:
1) Those who derive a great amount of satisfaction from their systems and are virtually taken to the performance when listening, and;
2) Those who have become gear-heads, who draw as much satisfaction in seeking, comparing, purchasing, and showing their pieces of equipment as the guy in #1 does listening to music on his.

.... Add up the cost of all your CD's, LP's (DVD's for HT I guess) Then divide that by your system cost. If the number is greater than 1, you're probably okay.
If the number is less than 1, you might need to re-think your priorities.

The magic ratio number isn't important, but the concept is.
Does your system cost more than the sum of all the media you purchased it to play? (good poll question?). This is a good indicator of what you derive more satisfaction out of.

To begin with two kinds are really extremes with most of us being somewhere in between. Yes, and I further postulate that people who hang around here have a high Type 2 ratio, because there are plenty of music-only forums so pure Type 1's don't have to spend time here.

As for music/system ratio, I recall an AA inmates saying he owned about 15,000 CDs and a like number of LPs. At a modest $10 a software copy that would "justify" a $300,000 system. (Mind you, as I recall, his system was in the $50+K range anyway.) For my part I'm around 1/1 for stereo, but only because 60% of my collection is less than 3 years old at this moment -- I had a 15 year hiatus from serious listening and collecting. For my HT system, the ratio favors the software by 2 or 3 to 1.

GMichael
07-03-2007, 09:44 AM
Looks? Yes, looks make up a huge part of it. I often show friends pics of the speakers I want. They almost always ask if these $2500 speakers will sound 4 times better than my current $600 pair. I usually say, look at these things. It would cost $2k for furniture or decorations that look this good. They agree. So as long as they don't sound any worse than the set I have now, I'll be happy.
But then, do I want to drive $2k speakers with an HT receiver? And it all starts to snowball.

GMichael
07-03-2007, 09:50 AM
Kex, I do agree with the point you are making. Why own a $100k system if you aren't going to use it? But I don't agree that I have to own the CD's or LP's. I spend many hours watching HD TV in surround sound as well as many more listening to music from the TV channels.
But your point is a valid one indeed.

GMichael
07-03-2007, 09:57 AM
This is all that matters. As long as the listener is happy, the product is worth the price paid.

Does it matter?

But what if I could have better?


Only if I've got Old Yeller playing on the HT.

Dam movie! sniff sniff...


Depends on your point of view and how you prioritize things.

Let's not forget budget.


You don't have to imagine, just go visit some hifi store in your town or when you're on vacation.

That is fun. But then I regret it for months. I get all pumped up for something I can't have.


Just like a $1k system...only moreso.

How much moreso? Will I like it more?


You could blow an entire first round pick's signing bonus, meticulously match each piece with complete synergy, build a dedicated and tuned listening room...












...and it still wouldn't consistently replicate a live event.

But would it make me smile bigger than I already do?

Bernd
07-03-2007, 10:00 AM
But would it make me smile bigger than I already do?


Yes. Absolutely. Without fail.:6: :17: :5: :16: :)

Resident Loser
07-03-2007, 10:19 AM
.....my back up. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Why can't somebody with a small music collection enjoy it on a multi k system? Why must the cost of the software always outstrip the hardware to qualify for membership to the true music lovers club?

Peace

:16:

...honest, the ratio you speak of usually indicates the program material is chosen more for it's technical aspects rather than that of performance /material considerations in most cases...Direct-to-disc recordings being the most notorious in that regard...Great to show your gear at it's best but...pfffttt...

I have some old 78s that I listen to more for their content than for tech...tech...technical excellence. Much of the music I play nowadays is chosen from a smaller group of recently acquired, carefully chosen digital recordings with less of my analog collection in rotation...but given the fact that many are digitally remastered reissues of mono program material, it's got more to do with the content (and my changing musical tastes) than any gear-centric reasons.

So I understand your POV and the fact that there are exceptions to every "rule"...So, okay...I have approx. 50 CDs of which I play maybe 30 with regularity...an unknown (at least at this moment) number of vinyl/lacquer disks of which probably thirty or so see the light of day and likewise with tapes...All adds up to maybe 100 recordings at say $10 a pop (more-or-less)...so lessee, carry the one...at's about a grand...a, er...and my gear cost around $5K...oooops...

jimHJJ(...looks like I fail that litmus test...WAAHHH!...I'm a closet gearhead!!!...)

Bernd
07-03-2007, 10:24 AM
Jim has come out of the closet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ihih:

GMichael
07-03-2007, 10:29 AM
Jim has come out of the closet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ihih:

Where's John when you really need him?

Oh. That was bad. That was really bad. I will burn for that for sure.
Please forgive me.

Feanor
07-03-2007, 10:59 AM
...

So I understand your POV and the fact that there are exceptions to every "rule"...So, okay...I have approx. 50 CDs of which I play maybe 30 with regularity...an unknown (at least at this moment) number of vinyl/lacquer disks of which probably thirty or so see the light of day and likewise with tapes...All adds up to maybe 100 recordings at say $10 a pop (more-or-less)...so lessee, carry the one...at's about a grand...a, er...and my gear cost around $5K...oooops...

jimHJJ(...looks like I fail that litmus test...WAAHHH!...I'm a closet gearhead!!!...)

Only 100 recordings?? :confused5: I thought I was pathetic: after 35+ years of listening I've only 450 CDs and maybe 100 LPs; (I got rid of 100 or more LPs, not to mention a couple of dozen cassettes).

But seriously, I don't care about your ratio, however that's not a lot of variety in your music. I have my favorites, (humm ... Shostakovich' quartets for instance), but I listen to 2/3 of my CD collection on a sort of rotational basis. I listen to radio too, largely for the variety -- perhaps you do too.

Rich-n-Texas
07-03-2007, 11:02 AM
Holy Cow! I can't believe it! "Current active users viewing this thread = 10..." A brief resurection of the forums?

SlumpBuster
07-03-2007, 11:05 AM
Part of the problem GMichael is that your $600 speakers are also just very good speakers regardless of price (the Infinities, right?). They are right on the beginning cusp of diminishing returns, IMHO.

And as for the $1000 number here is how easy it can be without having to resort to BestBuy:

Ascend 170s: $330
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/images/products/speakers/cbm170/170SE_lt_ng_lr.jpg

Jolida Integrated: $350
http://www.audioreview.com/channels/audioreview/images/1JolidaFront.jpg

AT-120 Turntable w/ built in phono pre-amp: $160
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CHHAH59ML._AA280_.jpg

Upgraded Goldring hi-output cart: $100
http://www.goldring.co.uk/images/goldring/elektra.jpg

With plenty of money left over for cabling and accessories.

The problem with a $100,000 system, is that you can't really hide it away in your own corner of the world. In a small room properly set up, this system would be super fun and hard to beat. I can already imagine it set up in a room above a detached garage away from the house and any wife or children. With just enough room for proper speaker placement, some racks of LPs, a liquor cabinet, an easy chair, and the classic car of your choice in the garage below. Ahhhh, a man can dream....

GMichael
07-03-2007, 11:12 AM
Holy Cow! I can't believe it! "Current active users viewing this thread = 10..." A brief resurection of the forums?

I feel like a kid in a candy store.

GMichael
07-03-2007, 11:16 AM
Part of the problem GMichael is that your $600 speakers are also just very good speakers regardless of price (the Infinities, right?). They are right on the beginning cusp of diminishing returns, IMHO.

Yeah, the Primus 360's. Thanks, they did get good reveiws (whatever that's worth). But, just to be a smarty pants, I don't see that as a problem.:ciappa:



The problem with a $100,000 system, is that you can't really hide it away in your own corner of the world. In a small room properly set up, this system would be super fun and hard to beat. I can already imagine it set up in a room above a detached garage away from the house and any wife or children. With just enough room for proper speaker placement, some racks of LPs, a liquor cabinet, an easy chair, and the classic car of your choice in the garage below. Ahhhh, a man can dream....

What a nice dream. Can I slip in a billiard table?

SlumpBuster
07-03-2007, 11:18 AM
I have my favorites, (humm ... Shostakovich' quartets for instance)

I upset my 3 month old son with Shostakovich's Symphony No. 8 last weekend. He wouldn't stop crying until I put in something else (which only took me all of fifteen seconds to realize). :D

bobsticks
07-03-2007, 11:18 AM
Everybody's got a story, and as people are transitionary so are stories and situations. My first year in this hobby the ratio came solidly on the gearhead side, if only because I knew there was better out there and wanted it. In the last six months or so, having acquired a decent system, the ratio has easily reversed.

One question to ask yourself is "Do I really enjoy discovering new music?". I'll check out anything once and if I like it there will assuredly be more to follow. That said, you gotta have gear that will play everything. While great for HT, I doubt I'm going to get the best out of every genre from a set of DefTechs. But that's just me.

What is a 20k system? What is a 100k system? I mean, my speaks and amps retail for about 20k but I can guaran-damn-tee you I didn't spend half that. I buy used and keep enough disposable income around that if a deal pops up I can pounce on it. Do I have a 20k system? And does that make me cool? Does it not count because I didn't pay retail? And, most importantly, who cares? It makes me happy.

All I know for sure is this--if somebody came up and gave me a choice between two 10k gift certificates, one for the Gear Shoppe and one for the CD Outlet... I'm looking for new storage units and the Snake-Oil Snalesman has still got his cables in his hand...

Feanor
07-03-2007, 11:33 AM
I upset my 3 month old son with Shostakovich's Symphony No. 8 last weekend. He wouldn't stop crying until I put in something else (which only took me all of fifteen seconds to realize). :D

Hey, he's only 3 months old. But I'm sure you enjoy Shostakovich's 8th, right? :ciappa:

Seriously though ;), I have Shostakovich's 8th and enjoy it once in a while, but I prefer his 5th and 10th. As I recall, I've versions of his 1st, 5th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th symphonies, and maybe and maybe another (?). And, yes, all his string quartets, most in couple of verions. Shostakovich' music is gritty and a bit angst-filled -- but, dang! I like that versus the romantic drivel of, say, Robert Schumann

kexodusc
07-03-2007, 11:38 AM
.....my back up. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Why can't somebody with a small music collection enjoy it on a multi k system?

Why must the cost of the software always outstrip the hardware to qualify for membership to the true music lovers club? And what if you only listen to live broadcasts on radio?

Peace

:16:


Nobody's implying someone can't have a small music collection and own a mulit-K system and not be a music lover. But all things equal, it's reasonable to assume a person who consciously chooses to spend their money on acquiring more music at the expense of more gear enjoys music more. To these people, there's more satisfaction in purchasing the music than chasing incremental sound quality improvements.

If you reduce his statement to the literal values then we miss the point, which I even tried avoiding by trivializing the value of the ratio. Of course the in-between is where the majority lie.
But while I'm sure there are abnormal exceptions to the rule, (ie - the very wealthy who rarely use the systems, the Beethoven only lovers, etc) the premise is at least good enough for the vast majority of people.

One does have something to do with the other. Quantifying it would be impossible, but to dismiss it would be unfair. It's more than reasonable to assume for a great number of people that there's at least some positive correlation with gear and the size of their music/video libraries. Of course TV, Radio etc blur the lines a bit, and for home theater there's the renting element. Really we're gauging the frequency of use.

I would expect an incredibly strong, positive correlation between collection size and the amount of time one spends listening to music. Who accumulates 500 LP's listening only an hour or 2 a week? It's reasonable to think very, very few. Safe to say they're into music. How many people with multi-K systems have collections of less than a hundred titles? I would also expect very, very few. I don't know many audiophiles who don't have considerably larger than average music libraries. Most I know have rather substantial collections.

I haven't seen much evidence of a consumer based economy where people willingly spend discretionary income on items they don't want, need, or value at a premium to other products.

SlumpBuster
07-03-2007, 11:40 AM
Actually, it was my first time with the 8th. I should have known from the cover. Bleak snow covered bombed out cityscape with Russians scavanging for food.

basite
07-03-2007, 12:30 PM
I heard quite some high end systems this year; these include wilson MAXX, driven by very expensive macs, Avalon Isis' driven by way to expensive spectral gear, B&W diamond reference driven by a 45 watt pure class A accuphase poweramp, and their reference pre& transport & dac, and various others.

I must say that I was quite impressed by most of them, however, if you asked me wether they all sounded a 100 times better than my double advents,

I'd say no.
why? well, the high end setups (and especially the wilsons & the avalons) sounded near perfect, they sounded big, and powerful and the sound was like 'real', but not really real. And that's why I'd say no, they can't bring you real, only a reproduction of it. I'm not saying that this reproduction is not good, certainly not, it's almost perfect, but the band is not there, in place of them, there are speakers, amps & sources.

this, however, does not mean that you shouldn't try to get exellent sound, If I had the money, I'd have a pair of avalons, and mcintosh amps, and whatever else, in fact, I will have them someday, I'm sure of that :ihih:



Keep them spinning,
Bert.

E-Stat
07-03-2007, 12:41 PM
What must your systems sound like? Will I burst into tears the moment they are turned on?
I'll start with the best system I've heard which is certainly not my own. Because it is a reviewer's system, many parts of it are constantly changing. At any given time, it's worth about $350-$400k on paper. While not the most expensive speakers available, the big Nola speakers run a cool $140k. They necessarily need to be bi-amped, so they are regularly fed with two sets of monoblock statement amplifiers. The first time I heard them, the mains were fed by a pair of VTL Wotans while the bass towers were driven with Krells. There are usually at least two CDPs and turntables. If having an EAR Magnetic table or a VPI Super Scoutmaster isn't enough, the primary one under review gets to sit atop a $9600 Halcyonic isolation platform. You know one of those automated devices originally intended to stabilize a scanning electron microscope. During a high bass content passage, you might see the digital display quickly detect, display and instantly correct the seismic event. Or the CDP du jour like the latest EMM Labs unit atop its own, but smaller Micro-40 Halcyonic platform. Place the rest of the stuff on two Arcici suspense racks. Lastly, cable the entire system with about $65k worth of Nordost Valhalla and two Thor conditioners. So what do you get? F@#!ing incredible results, that's what! With the best recordings, the walls disappear. Reaalllly spooky the first time I heard that. Even with multi-tracked Madonna albums, the apparent stage size for what is admittedly total artifice is enormous in all planes. Authority. The sense of effortless power at any level up to and including louder than I prefer. I have never heard such a level of completely pure and extended high frequency power. Completely transparent resolution. No wisp of detail is left behind. Play any recording you choose that you've heard hundreds of times before and on this system, you will hear it for the first time. There's stuff on the disc you've never heard before. Rhythmic lines are rendered so clearly that you are able to follow multiple musical lines so easily. Power and grace at the same time. Yes, it has brought me to tears or rendered me laughing aloud uncontrollably. So, what's the point? This is what is possible. Not that I lust for actually owning such a system, but visiting it every once in a while is always a treat.

Far more down to earth is my main music system which I think is rather special. I value transparency and coherency. Utter coherency is what I think my electrostats do a bit better than the big Nolas or virtually any other dynamic or hybrid system. The sound character from top to bottom is cut from a single cloth. A single pebble in the pond. They reveal so much detail at low levels such that I rarely listen loudly at all. There is a delicacy to voice and instruments that begins to suggest the real thing. Voices hang in the air. In fact, it really doesn't sound impressive at all - just natural. Bass response is solid down to 25 hz, but never punches you in the stomach. Rock aficionados would likely prefer a more dynamic, total-body-vibration JBL or Klipsch system driven by some huge pro amps. But the system is a bit tweaky. Because the CD source sounds more open and images wider driving the amps directly vs. running through the preamp, I must do a cable swap to change source from CD to vinyl or vice versa. The bias on the speaker power supplies needs to be set individually every time I listen. Minor nits, but not everyone would be up to that.

Ironically, I likely spend more time with the vintage double New Advents in the garage system during good weather. While the Advents are not exactly spectacular in today's market, they are nevertheless very natural and can be quite revealing given the chance. Rarely are $450 worth of speakers (in '77 dollars) driven by a $6000 front end. To be honest, most of the other components are simply hand-me-downs over time from the main system. It is likewise a minimalist system with either a tube DAC / line stage or phono pre directly driving the amp. More cable swapping, but worth it to me. It shares a similar "doesn't sound loud" but is very clear presentation like the 'stats.


Can they really be 10 or 20 times better? I just can't imagine how good a system like that would sound.
In any reasonable sense, the answer is an emphatic no. The Law of Diminishing Returns certainly applies here. But, there are things that special systems can do that are quite entertaining.

I truly wish every audio enthusiast had the opportunity to spend several hours with a truly staggering statement system like the first one I mentioned. Just because!

rw

E-Stat
07-03-2007, 12:57 PM
But all things equal, it's reasonable to assume a person who consciously chooses to spend their money on acquiring more music at the expense of more gear enjoys music more.
As a rule, I don't disagree, but I think more is involved. I guess I'm defending myself because my HW/SW ratio is more like 5:1. To tell you the truth, I pretty much have all the music I really enjoy in a relatively modest collection of about 700 discs split between vinyl and aluminum. I'm constantly listening to XM to find new material. I have friends with multi-thousand album collections, but they rarely listen to anything approaching all of them on any regular basis. When you ask Dr. C for say a Beethoven's Fifth, he'll ask which one. He may have about eight different versions. Pick which one you want. I'm just not that way.

As for time spent listening, it is always a daily event including some dedicated, quality time where I immerse myself to clear my head. My job involves frequent travel where I always have my laptop with about 40 GB of music and use some Shure earbuds.

rw

GMichael
07-03-2007, 12:57 PM
I truly wish every audio enthusiast had the opportunity to spend several hours with a truly staggering statement system like the first one I mentioned. Just because!

rw

I'm ready to go listen.

ROAD TRIP!!

topspeed
07-03-2007, 04:17 PM
OK, Mike, here's the deal:

Yes, they can sound better than your current rig and yes, you will likely have a bigger grin on your mug. How much more depends on your mood and sensibilities.

I've been fortunate enough to hear a few exceptional rigs, not the least bit helped by a friend that is a devoted gear geek. He swaps equipment like Slump swaps diapers. A few months ago it was a VPI/ARC/Legacy Whisper jobber. Today? Who knows?

Hearing statement rigs can be a revelation, but not always in a good way. Experiencing WP7's for the first time was just that...an experience. Inner detail to drool over and control that was completely effortless. You could literally sense how far the vocalist's lips were from the mic at any given time. The VR11se's were the same, only moreso (there's that word again). When I auditioned the Evidence Temptations, I was equally floored...at how bad they were. Cold, analytical, "hi-fi" in every way. Ugh. The didn't convey the music so much as dissect it. No thanks, I'll take the zero.

What's the point of all this blathering? Get out there a listen, Mike! :thumbsup: Just because you hear them doesn't mean you'll want to buy them. This is a hobby and as such you should enjoy it. If anything, it may allow you to appreciate your own system even more! You'll realize that while there may be better rigs, are they really that much better? Last night, I pulled out a Jim Chappelle disc for back ground music while I read, only to find myself never picking up my book. You know my gear, it most certainly doesn't qualify as "high end" (or even "mid fi" for that matter), but I guarantee you, not once did I wonder how it would sound on WP7's or VR11's.

Not once.

GMichael
07-03-2007, 05:31 PM
Just because you hear them doesn't mean you'll want to buy them. .

Uhm, yeah, for me it does. But that's OK. I am having fun. This was all just something to talk about. Hope you enjoyed it as much as I.
Thanks for your thoughtfull replies. We could stand to see more posts from you.

emorphien
07-03-2007, 10:11 PM
After reading through the power cord thread, I see that some of you spend more on power cables than I spent on all 3 of my systems put together. Whenever I listen to any of my systems, I'm still overwhelmed by how good they sound. They seem incredible to me. They produce emotional responses on a daily bases.
I think owning those power cords must evoke emotional responses because their audible impact is questionable!

JohnMichael
07-04-2007, 09:05 AM
Where's John when you really need him?

Oh. That was bad. That was really bad. I will burn for that for sure.
Please forgive me.


I am being serenaded by Michael Buble. On my 3k two channel system he is sounding quite fine. Almost reach out and touch quality. Oh, I am sorry Michael, please keep singing.:ihih:

O'Shag
07-04-2007, 10:12 AM
Its easy to knock spending 50k or more on a system, especially if you can't afford it. High quality parts engineered to the nth degree tolerances are expensive. A run-of -the-mill capacitor can not touch a Mundorf siver/gold in oil capacitor.

My MFA MC Reference preamp was 15k when in production. Being assembled by hand, each unit took several people and several weeks to build. In fact the cost to build was so high that the manufacturer had to stop production and design lesser units. He faced losing money without the price going through the roof otherwise. Is the component worth this type of money? Emphatically yes. It helps the other components in my system realize their potential. The average 2k preamp will sound ok (and I have a few), but the recording will sound dead compared to my MFA in terms of creating an illusion of live music in a real space with real musicians; thats what those extra dollars gets you.

This hobby is not just all about the music. We're gear-heads as weel as music lovers. Many of us enjoy looking at and continuously tweaking our components as well as listen to them. We loke the planning and the execution. The petrol head doen't neccessarily have to love driving in and of itself above all else. He gets satisfaction from building and getting to know his car. He likes to gather with others and show off his pride and joy. There's nothing wrong with that, because it gives others who love cars in the same way a lot of pleasure. Just because you like to show of your A/V system doesn't mean your a big-headed twat, it means that your passionate about the system that took a lot of time, effort, heartache, and money to put together. Most of the friends you'll have over, get as much pleasure from listening and looking at your system and vice versa. Its ok to drool over an expensive, beautiful sounding and looking system even though we can't afford it. Although the music is the essence - its not the be all and end all. Put another way, its not just all about the end result, its also all about getting there.

SlumpBuster
07-04-2007, 12:00 PM
He swaps equipment like Slump swaps diapers.

My boy likes a fresh tackle box. :cornut:

s dog
07-04-2007, 01:53 PM
After reading through the power cord thread, I see that some of you spend more on power cables than I spent on all 3 of my systems put together. Whenever I listen to any of my systems, I'm still overwhelmed by how good they sound. They seem incredible to me. They produce emotional responses on a daily bases.
What must your systems sound like? Will I burst into tears the moment they are turned on? Can they really be 10 or 20 times better? I just can't imagine how good a system like that would sound.
I have had a chance to hear a few hi-fi systems. I got to hear the Maggie 3.6's a few years back, as well as most of the Totem line. These were driven by Moon products with wires that looked like ribbon cables. They were incredible, but still don't match the cash I see spent around here. I've heard a few other systems up to about the $10k range, but nothing over that. What does a $100k system sound like?
Please tell me, how good can it get? I have a denon 4800 receiver, klipcsh synergy speakers all the way around ,ps 1000 sub, two power amps and a denon1600 dvd player, 57'' toshiba tv and a panamax 4300 surge protector, I have less than $6000.00 in the whole system, A few months ago i had a chance to check out the klipsch THX speaker system which was hooked up to a denon 5805 and a denon 5910 dvd player. This setup cost around $20,000.00 bucks. [ without tv ] Now the ? is did it sound better than my $6000.00 system - yes it did sound better, but $14,000.00 better , no way in hell.

GMichael
07-04-2007, 03:50 PM
I have a denon 4800 receiver, klipcsh synergy speakers all the way around ,ps 1000 sub, two power amps and a denon1600 dvd player, 57'' toshiba tv and a panamax 4300 surge protector, I have less than $6000.00 in the whole system, A few months ago i had a chance to check out the klipsch THX speaker system which was hooked up to a denon 5805 and a denon 5910 dvd player. This setup cost around $20,000.00 bucks. [ without tv ] Now the ? is did it sound better than my $6000.00 system - yes it did sound better, but $14,000.00 better , no way in hell.

But if $14,000 was just a week's pay, would it be worth it to you?

calegrant
07-04-2007, 04:19 PM
I came into this forum uneducated and oblivious to most peoples intentions when making purchases I thought to be insane. I even went as far as to instigate a fight with florian (mistake) basesd on his decision to invest well over an average years salary to his hobby. I've since realized how moronic, ignorant, and out of place my statements were.

I personally get immense satisfaction when listening to my collection of live pearl jam records on my 2.5k system, satisfaction I'm surely certain I wouldn't get when listening to some of the most beloved orchestral music on a 450k system like th one mentioned earlier. The thing I question now is are the MAJORITY of these people who spend more on their hifi than a new mercedes enjoying the music or the stereo?

GMichael
07-04-2007, 05:36 PM
I came into this forum uneducated and oblivious to most peoples intentions when making purchases I thought to be insane. I even went as far as to instigate a fight with florian (mistake) basesd on his decision to invest well over an average years salary to his hobby. I've since realized how moronic, ignorant, and out of place my statements were.

I personally get immense satisfaction when listening to my collection of live pearl jam records on my 2.5k system, satisfaction I'm surely certain I wouldn't get when listening to some of the most beloved orchestral music on a 450k system like th one mentioned earlier. The thing I question now is are the MAJORITY of these people who spend more on their hifi than a new mercedes enjoying the music or the stereo?

Yes, both.
But it's just a guess. I could be wrong.

s dog
07-04-2007, 06:15 PM
But if $14,000 was just a week's pay, would it be worth it to you? Yea, maybe

Bernd
07-04-2007, 10:33 PM
Its easy to knock spending 50k or more on a system, especially if you can't afford it. High quality parts engineered to the nth degree tolerances are expensive. A run-of -the-mill capacitor can not touch a Mundorf siver/gold in oil capacitor.

This hobby is not just all about the music. We're gear-heads as weel as music lovers. Many of us enjoy looking at and continuously tweaking our components as well as listen to them. We loke the planning and the execution. The petrol head doen't neccessarily have to love driving in and of itself above all else. He gets satisfaction from building and getting to know his car. He likes to gather with others and show off his pride and joy. There's nothing wrong with that, because it gives others who love cars in the same way a lot of pleasure. Just because you like to show of your A/V system doesn't mean your a big-headed twat, it means that your passionate about the system that took a lot of time, effort, heartache, and money to put together. Most of the friends you'll have over, get as much pleasure from listening and looking at your system and vice versa. Its ok to drool over an expensive, beautiful sounding and looking system even though we can't afford it. Although the music is the essence - its not the be all and end all. Put another way, its not just all about the end result, its also all about getting there.

Agree, and well put.:yesnod:

:23: :23: :22:

thekid
07-05-2007, 01:57 AM
I suppose with some people it is a fine line between a hobby and an addiction. Some gearheads have to have the latest and greatest just because it "is the latest and greatest". At the same time I have met music lovers who as was mentioned earlier will have 10 versions of the same song or record the playlist of every concert they attend. For me this type of behavior takes it beyond the level of hobby but into the realm of obession or addiction. Which is not to say that it is bad for those people but it is just not my style. We all chose our passions and the level we devote to these passions.

The money factor is just an extension of the personality involved. For some money is no object when it comes to their "hobby" whether it is audio or trains. Where as for others (such as myself often) the money factor causes us to put the hobby in perspective relative to other priorities in our lives. I listen to music all the time and have built up a fairly large CD and tape collection-could not live without it. Does it make me less of a music lover or audio hobbyist because I don't spend as much as others to listen to music? The common sense answer is no but let's face it there are sometimes disagreements on this site where someone's pocket book (and by extension the brand of equipment) is used to measure their "true" devotion to the hobby. In the end, like speaker choices most of the time, it comes down to personal preferences and what you are comfortable spending your money on. If you like your set up and you don't think of the dollar signs when you push the power button then what difference does it make regardless of the cost. If on the other hand when listening to music and looking over your sytem you often find yourself totaling up the $ sum of the parts then maybe your "hobby" really isn't about music or gear.

basite
07-05-2007, 03:32 AM
Agree, and well put.:yesnod:

:23: :23: :22:


consider that seconded :)

we love our gear, and we'll do everything to get the full potential out of it, this doesn't have to be super exotic gear though, everything deserves to get it's attention, and it's definately not having 'the gear' that makes you an audiophile, it's about loving it, and taking care of it, and tweaking it (endlessly) and enjoying it. And if you find that 'little thing that was missing' by changing cables, then so be it.

Peace,
Bert.

Resident Loser
07-05-2007, 05:31 AM
...exception to the statement that equates "gearheaded-ness" and collecting various performances of the same piece...

As an example, I have three recordings of Orff's Carmina Burana...One I recorded from a New Years Day simulcast some years ago...It was my introduction to the piece and it has a certain sentimental value, but also has some technical deficiencies...The second was my first commercial recording of it and the chorus is impeccable...in the third, one of the male vocalists rolls his Rs in a highly theatrical manner that is at once amusing and entertaining...

Same with Beethoven's Piano Concerto #5, "The Emperor"...I have a number of performances of the piece from a Telarc Ozawa/BSO/Serkin collaboration to others purchased from the Musical Heritage Society and others from Ax and Brendel. My first exposure to it was it's final movement contained in a sampler disk obtained as a freebie from the company that manufactured my loudspeakers...Eight or ten excerpts from the Mercury Living Presence recordings...It included Mussorgsky's Pictures At An Exhibition of which I have a number of performances, ranging from the full Mercury recording to the original un-orchestrated solo piano work to Emerson, Lake and Palmer's interpretation of it...And I believe that is the key word "interpretation"...

Wagner with and without words...Mozart operas and symphonies for winds...transcriptions of major pieces of the classical canon for solo classical guitar, etc. Interest in the potential variations of particular pieces has zero relationship to to the constant equipment "upgrade-itis" that afflicts many.

Whether it is simply a search for the elusive "sonic grail" or the "my dog's bigger'n'your dog/bragging rights" syndrome, that is the addiction IMHO...Wanting to hear Caruso vs. Pavarotti, the BSO vs. the NY Philharmonic, Bernstein vs. Ormandy, or even mono vs. stereo, or analog vs. digital is another whole can of beans...

Gear is gear is gear, but the magic of the moment contained in a particular recording is THE reason for the gear...

jimHJJ(...and some folks seem to lose sight of that salient fact...)

Rich-n-Texas
07-05-2007, 05:58 AM
...exception to the statement that equates "gearheaded-ness" and collecting various performances of the same piece...

As an example, I have three recordings of Orff's Carmina Burana...One I recorded from a New Years Day simulcast some years ago...It was my introduction to the piece and it has a certain sentimental value, but also has some technical deficiencies...The second was my first commercial recording of it and the chorus is impeccable...in the third, one of the male vocalists rolls his Rs in a highly theatrical manner that is at once amusing and entertaining...

Same with Beethoven's Piano Concerto #5, "The Emperor"...I have a number of performances of the piece from a Telarc Ozawa/BSO/Serkin collaboration to others purchased from the Musical Heritage Society and others from Ax and Brendel. My first exposure to it was it's final movement contained in a sampler disk obtained as a freebie from the company that manufactured my loudspeakers...Eight or ten excerpts from the Mercury Living Presence recordings...It included Mussorgsky's Pictures At An Exhibition of which I have a number of performances, ranging from the full Mercury recording to the original un-orchestrated solo piano work to Emerson, Lake and Palmer's interpretation of it...And I believe that is the key word "interpretation"...
Funny, I used that word over in RR and it has since caused quite a stir. :idea:RL, you mention the Mercury recordings. Is this the same as the Mercury Theater on the Air that broadcast programs on the radio before the TV was invented? I'm trying to find the vinyl recording of The War of the Worlds that was broadcast and narrated by Orson Wells, which if you'll recall caused widespread panic when people listening to it thought we really were being invaded from outer space. We had it in our family when I was very young, but I think it got thrown out at some point.



Wagner with and without words...Mozart operas and symphonies for winds...transcriptions of major pieces of the classical canon for solo classical guitar, etc. Interest in the potential variations of particular pieces has zero relationship to to the constant equipment "upgrade-itis" that afflicts many.

Whether it is simply a search for the elusive "sonic grail" or the "my dog's bigger'n'your dog/bragging rights" syndrome, that is the addiction IMHO...Wanting to hear Caruso vs. Pavarotti, the BSO vs. the NY Philharmonic, Bernstein vs. Ormandy, or even mono vs. stereo, or analog vs. digital is another whole can of beans...

Gear is gear is gear, but the magic of the moment contained in a particular recording is THE reason for the gear...

jimHJJ(...and some folks seem to lose sight of that salient fact...)
I don't necessarily agree with your assumption that gear is gear is gear, but I do agree that the software is what drives the hardware.

Bernd
07-05-2007, 07:19 AM
....a definitive case of deja vu. I am sure we have been here before, several times! Yes?

Anyway, although I agree with Jim's and Rich in Texas' post, there is however a flip side to the coin. If the music drives the gear then surely the gear plays the music. You need both unless, you pick up the old six string and entertain yourself.:ihih:
I find both sides exciting. A great new album, picked up on recommendation from RR or a piece of equipment that fit's into my set-up really well and does exactely what it says on the tin.
Oddly enough, most of my new music gets it's first listen either in the car or in my study. And I enjoy getting the basics of the piece. When it's played later in the listening room, there's lot's more to discover.
I mirror Basites sentiment that you don't have to have exotic multi K gear to enjoy it. It's what you get out of it that counts.
On top of that I like my system to look good too. I am not into hair shirt set-ups and trailing wires everywhere.
My point is, I guess, that I love listening to my music, and if I can afford it I like to hear it on a decent system, without giving any thought whatsoever to the cost of it all.

Peace

:16:

Resident Loser
07-05-2007, 07:51 AM
Funny, I used that word over in RR and it has since caused quite a stir. :idea:RL, you mention the Mercury recordings. Is this the same as the Mercury Theater on the Air that broadcast programs on the radio before the TV was invented? I'm trying to find the vinyl recording of The War of the Worlds that was broadcast and narrated by Orson Wells, which if you'll recall caused widespread panic when people listening to it thought we really were being invaded from outer space. We had it in our family when I was very young, but I think it got thrown out at some point.


I don't necessarily agree with your assumption that gear is gear is gear, but I do agree that the software is what drives the hardware.

FWIW, The two Mercury's are mutually exclusive...the Theater Of The Air, a collaboration of Orson Welles and John Houseman has nothing to do with Mercury Records...Unfortunately, from my brief surfin' safari, it seems WOTW is out of print on any media, however if you go to:

http://www.mercurytheatre.info

...you may be able to download a copy of it.

RR is a forum that has many land mines in the guise of absolutist POVs allowing for little latitude IMO...you think the great cable debate is messy?

A bit of clarification on my "gear" remark, my brevity may have been somewhat confusing...Obviously one can opt for more power, "better" speakers and the like, but essentially the gear is merely the delivery system, albeit a system that has any number of performance "levels" (for lack of better words) up 'til the point of diminishing returns...As I have stated previously, I can be utterly transfixed by Pavarotti's performance of Nessun Dorma via my GE portable radio with its single 2.5 in. speaker simply because it's the performance that really counts.

Obviously a full range and dynamic orchestral piece will benefit from a system of a commensurate abilities...however, I don't really feel it is an absolute necessity to appreciate the complexities (or simplicity for that matter) of the composition or artistry of the performers(s).

Improving the gear may raise your level of enjoyment on some ephemeral and/or subjective level, but no level of expenditure will make a lesser performance or recording be anything more than what it is.

jimHJJ(...it will probably only be louder...)

Resident Loser
07-05-2007, 08:23 AM
....a definitive case of deja vu. I am sure we have been here before, several times! Yes?

...but it sure beats answering questions like "Does this integrated amp have a pre-amp?" or other inanities...and yeah I know, we all started there but fer crissakes, if you're gonna' include a link to the owners manual, at least thumb through it...

Anywho, these sites just seem to recycle old news, particularly in fallow times...

But to get back on track with the OPs post (you great big PITA)...Obviously the hardware should be able to extract the max from the software...but...once you reach a certain point, all the $$$ cables and preamps etc. will, for the most part, will allow you to play it louder...

Since we are dealing with software that is inherently flawed (again for the most part multiple mono tracks synthesized into a stereo or MC presentation) any supposed nuances afforded by the big bucks are suspect in my book...

jimHJJ(...insert Bronx cheer here...)

GMichael
07-05-2007, 08:49 AM
...but it sure beats answering questions like "Does this integrated amp have a pre-amp?" or other inanities...and yeah I know, we all started there but fer crissakes, if you're gonna' include a link to the owners manual, at least thumb through it...


jimHJJ(...insert Bronx cheer here...)

Ha-ha. And me (like a fool) didn't notice that he had the manual link at first. I found it was being sold on Ebay for $20 with lengthy explanations. Then I found the manual link and was about to post it when I noticed that he already had it.
Sometimes I feel like such an idiot.

I know that this thread is a bit of a rehash, but we needed something to talk about. It's been soooooooo sloooooooooooow.....

Bernd
07-05-2007, 08:51 AM
....I get my hat and coat then.:cornut:

Oh by the way- does my integrated has a pre-out.....................................

:prrr:

topspeed
07-05-2007, 10:39 AM
This was all just something to talk about. Hope you enjoyed it as much as I. Verily. As Jim pointed out, this is so much better than the normal dribble and I applaud you for creating this thread. As you noticed, this is the most I've posted in a while. There's a reason for that; there's been nothing worthwhile to post about.

Make more interesting threads like this Mike, and I'll be happy to contribute. :)

GMichael
07-05-2007, 11:10 AM
Verily. As Jim pointed out, this is so much better than the normal dribble and I applaud you for creating this thread. As you noticed, this is the most I've posted in a while. There's a reason for that; there's been nothing worthwhile to post about.

Make more interesting threads like this Mike, and I'll be happy to contribute. :)

Thanks Speedy,

Although not as controversial as this thread, we could use your input over here.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=23347

hifitommy
07-08-2007, 09:17 AM
thats what your system should be. IF it were within my means, the MBLs would be in consideration. etc. a dedicated, purpose built room would be also forthcoming. a walker or sirius or other worthy tt would be there. meitner digital front end maybe. likely some tubes in the front end, and not sure if ss or tubes would be the power.

as for now, my system will do. changes come slowly, variety in music is a must, hence the large arsenal that resides here. video is not as important to me but surround will evolve from my dynaquad eventually, it will just not be sonically intrusive. naturalness is the keyword.

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/588.html

when i went to the arc preamp, the quality level rose dramatically, perhaps as much as when i went to separates in the first place.

it CAN be about money but fine sound can be affordable. high end is a sound, not necessarily a price. the nad 3020 and adcXLM are perfect examples of that.