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DPM
06-30-2007, 02:42 PM
I'm planning on getting a turntable, but I have no experience with the high end brands. My prior turntable--which I haven't owned since 1991--was a Technics direct-drive unit I purchased back in 1979. It was equipped with an Ortofon HM 30 cartridge.

For my next turntable, I was looking to spend around $1,000.00 (give or take a couple hundred) for the table/cartridge combo. My Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista integrated amp has a phono preamp built in, so I don't have to worry about that. The qualities I'm looking for are a neutral to slightly warm sonic character, excellent tracking ability, accurate speed, good looks and--most importantly--reliabilty.

The two tables currently in the running are the Project RM6.1 SB and the Rega P3 MK 24 w/301 arm. Right now, I'm leaning towards the Project RM 6.1 because I've read some negative reviews regarding the reliability of Rega's cheaper tables. Also, the Project gear looks cool IMHO, and I like the idea of the record clamp.

Still, if I have to spend a bit more than $1,000.00 to get those qualities I want, I'd be willing to go for the VPI Scout or a higher end Rega, Project or Clearaudio.

Does anyone here have any experience with the tables I've mentioned? As far as reliabilty is concerned, who is the go-to manufacturer? If you were in my shoes, which table would you purchase?

jrhymeammo
06-30-2007, 06:30 PM
I only have experience with SB 6.1 at a dealer. I'v read alot of reviews on this site about their platter inconsistancy, but I've never found that to be true at 2 different dealers. They both spun much flatter than any records we will ever own. Speedbox is a must for PJ TTs. But if I had your budget, I would defintely toy around with a used Scout with original packings.

I would be curious about newer Clearaudio Emotion as well, but I've read their tonearm cable problem with VTA adjjustment, which sounds like a bummer. I'm not sure if they resolved the issue with newer version.

Nottingham Horizon SE I've seen at a dealer looks nice, but the motor wasnt working properly..

Have Fun,

JRA

O'Shag
06-30-2007, 10:21 PM
Hi DPM,

Prior to my current setup; a Musical Fidelity M1 turntable, SME IV.VI tonearm and dynavector 17D2 Karat cartridge, I was using a Mission 775SM (missions best turntable) and an Alphason HR 100 tonearm (a true classic). I had on there a Stanton 881E moving magnet cartridge. The Stanton 881E was actually really entertaining. Its much better than all the other Stantons. The Mission 775SM is not the same as the 775, which is much inferior. I can tell you that the sound of the combination was excellent, even theough not a moving coil cartidge. It did help that it was attached to my MFA MC Reference preamp, one of the best phono/linestage preamps ever made.

I am thinking of selling the Mission/Alphason combo (no cartridge) on Audiogon. The alphason does need a re-wire as the wire is now past its prime. If your interested I'll talk to you about a deal for around 1k. if you want something that looks good such as the clearaudio champion, then this table would not be for you as its looks are rather industrial. However the 775/Alphason HR100 titanium tonearm will outperform the champion, which I have heard in one of my friends systems.

Mr Peabody
07-01-2007, 01:15 PM
I have had my Rega P3 for several years, it's probably been at least 6, and I have had no problems what so ever with it. I understand that the P3 with the Dynavector 10, I forget the exact model, the one that selss for about $395.00, is a great combo for synergy. I like my Elys cart but I have been told the Dynavector will be more quiet, won't reveal as much surface noise.

My opinion is if anyone had problems with a Rega turntable they either didn't set it up properly in the beginning or tried to modify it unsuccessfully.

You can take a look at www.amusicdirect.com they have several brands of turntables, carts and accessories for you to get an idea of what's out there and for how much.

basite
07-02-2007, 03:38 AM
+1 for clearaudio emotion...

JohnMichael
07-02-2007, 06:55 AM
I have had my Rega P3 for several years, it's probably been at least 6, and I have had no problems what so ever with it. I understand that the P3 with the Dynavector 10, I forget the exact model, the one that selss for about $395.00, is a great combo for synergy. I like my Elys cart but I have been told the Dynavector will be more quiet, won't reveal as much surface noise.

My opinion is if anyone had problems with a Rega turntable they either didn't set it up properly in the beginning or tried to modify it unsuccessfully.

You can take a look at www.amusicdirect.com they have several brands of turntables, carts and accessories for you to get an idea of what's out there and for how much.


My eight or nine year old Rega Planar 2 has been completely reliable. I agree with Mr. Peabody that if they had problems it is most likely user error. I have been thinking about a Dynavector 10x5 for my table. I owned a 10x2 years ago but I have been fairly happy with the Ortofon OM 20. My vote would be for the Rega P3.

DPM
07-02-2007, 12:19 PM
Hi DPM,

I am thinking of selling the Mission/Alphason combo (no cartridge) on Audiogon. The alphason does need a re-wire as the wire is now past its prime. If your interested I'll talk to you about a deal for around 1k. if you want something that looks good such as the clearaudio champion, then this table would not be for you as its looks are rather industrial. However the 775/Alphason HR100 titanium tonearm will outperform the champion, which I have heard in one of my friends systems.

Thanks for the offer, but I really want to purchase new for this component. The only stereo gear I'm willing to buy used are speakers, amps, preamps and cables. Good luck with your sale.

DPM
07-02-2007, 12:26 PM
Thanks for your info guys. With two happy Rega owners present I guess I'll have to really consider that brand. Is there a good record clamp/weight that works well with the Rega tables?

jrhymeammo
07-02-2007, 06:26 PM
I would be very tempted to get a vacuum clamp made by Sota if you can swing it.

I trust those 2 men above who recommended REGA. So if I was in your shoes, I would go with REGA P3. Plus they replaced RB300 with RB301. That might be something to readup on.

PJs have been serving me well for 2 years plus and their arms are pretty damn good. But RB arms are too damn good!!

I think you are making a very wise choice by purchasing them new.

Good Luck!

JRA

Mr Peabody
07-02-2007, 07:20 PM
I have never used a record clamp. I'm leery of adding anything to the original set up thinking it could cause motor strain or stretch the belt. It doesn't take much to hinder the platter from turning at regular speed, so I only use a carbon fiber brush and do light cleaning with a record on the table. Deep cleaning I do else where.

JohnMichael
07-03-2007, 07:52 AM
I do not use a clamp or weight on the record. I use the Ringmat record mat which uses cork rings that damps the record very well in my experience. I also use Rega's recommended method of not turning off the motor between records. I have become very adept at removing records from a spinning platter. Most of the strain on a motor is during start-up and by leaving the motor running during a listening session you are extending the life of the motor.

SlumpBuster
07-03-2007, 08:24 AM
Okay, gonna offer my two cents. I hung back because I knew you would get alot of good advise.

When I got my current table, I shopped the hell out of that $1000 price point, but ended up not going that high. I am running a Music Hall MMF 5 and would suggest that you look at the MMF 7 (http://www.musichallaudio.com/mmf_products.asp?show=true&prolook=mmf_7). Nothing against the Rega P3, it's a good choice (I auditioned the P2 and 3 extensively with Arcam/Paradigm equipment).

But, I just think that Music Hall, and the Projects for that matter, offer more value for the money. Split plinth, decoupled motor, well respected Project arm, good looks, and a good selection of matching preamps and speed controls. Also, it has an integral light weight record clamp that is screwed on, thereby alleviating the concerns of a heavy weight clamp. But, the Rega is a tweakers dream, with all sorts of aftermarket stuff available. The Music Hall is much more out of the box and ready to go.

jrhymeammo
07-03-2007, 09:08 AM
I'm wondering,

Are you counting on a pre-mounted cartridge with your new turntable? Or do you have a separate budget for a cart?

You probably know this, but I woundnt decide on a TT with pre installed cart. If you want to save some money, then i would go with Xpression v.2. Cone feet with removable IC would've been nice with mine, but I got the version 1, which is very reliable with great speed control without SpeedBox. But spending $120 for a Speedbox just makes it even better.

MMF-5 woul
d be a fine TT as well, and you can get a speedbox made by MH.

Let us know what you end up with.

Peace,

DPM
07-03-2007, 09:33 AM
I'm wondering,

Are you counting on a pre-mounted cartridge with your new turntable? Or do you have a separate budget for a cart?

Peace,

It will depend on the turntable package I purchase. If I go with a cheaper table then I'll probably opt for a different cartridge then the one offered (via Music Direct, Needle Doctor, Audio Adviser, etc.) in that particular package. If I go for a more expensive table (for instance, the Scout) then I'll seriously consider the cartridge offered.

I just read a good review for the Audio Technica AT150MLX in The Sensible Sound. I like the fact that it is supposedly a good tracker that is excellent with worn records, and the sound is not too warmed over. It's not cheap though.

Other items I'm going to need are record cleaning fluid/brush, stylus cleaner, a dust cover (if one isn't included), and some kind of platform on which to level the turntable. I'm also hoping that whomever sells me the gear can set up the turntable for me--as I don't have the tools/experience to do that job. The cost of the above materials is not included in my initial price quote.

I'd love to be able to check out turntables at my local (Las Vegas) audio dealers, but I don't think any of them handle that stuff.

Mr Peabody
07-03-2007, 05:07 PM
I'd be surprised if no one in a city that size did analog. Have you done any dealer searches from the manufacturer's websites? If none of the hi fi shops do, I'd bet there would be a analog guy in one of the more established repair shops.

It's not cheap but I use Zerodust for a stylus cleaner. I use it because I don't trust myself with brushes. If you have the funds, I'd also recommend a record cleaning machine. Cleaning an album on the turntable can strain a motor. Nitty Gritty I believe has some that are more affordable. I haven't used any or had my hands on them. I have a VPI that does a great job. On the other end of the spectrum you can find a host of record cleaning recipes and techniques that don't cost much.

Did you see the DVD on Musicdirect that teaches how to set up a turntable? Don't hold me to it but I think it was done my Michael Fremer. If you can't locate it on the sight I'm sure if you call they would know what I was talking about. It actually goes through the entire set up of very popular models of tables.

DPM
07-04-2007, 09:09 AM
If you have the funds, I'd also recommend a record cleaning machine. Cleaning an album on the turntable can strain a motor.


With my last turntable--a direct-drive Technics--I used to manually spin the platter while cleaning the LP with a Discwasher brush. Is it possible to do this with a belt-drive table?

Mr Peabody
07-04-2007, 09:30 AM
I used to use the same thing with my old Pioneer direct drive but that didn't work well at all with my Rega. I'm not sure about other belt drive tables but I'd assume it would be a similar situation. So I use the cleaning machine at least once on an album and then between times use the Audioquest carbon fiber brush which is fairly light for when the album is on the turntable. If you have your old direct drive, it may work for just cleaning albums on.

Bernd
07-05-2007, 01:11 AM
.....great advice and recommendation here from genuine Rega users.
I would also like to add my vote for the Rega + Arm. It is a very fine TT combo in it's basic form, but can be tweaked to perform way above it's price.I have been through the Rega TT ladder and found them very reliable and good value for money.
As for record clamps. I found that, to me anyway, they very often degrade the sound. They can however be helpful on not completely flat records. I very seldom use mine.
Good luck with your search and welcome to the dark side.

Peace

:23:

jrhymeammo
07-05-2007, 07:59 PM
Problaby the cheapest thing you can do for your TT is to spend $4-5 on a bubble level. You need to make sure your turntable(LP/Platter surface in respect to tonearm/stylus) is level. If you are going to get a platform, then make sure they are adjustable. Or you can always chose to get cones underneath your TT.

I'm not sure how you feel about messing with setups, but sooner or later, you would need to replace a cartridge yourself. If I can install and adjust cartridges, then I'm pretty sure you can as well. But if for some reason you will not want to install or mess with it yourself, then I think you need to get a deck from a web retailer, such as MD or AS, and have them install a MM cartridge for a small fee. Then you should be able to replace stylus yourself without a sweat.

If not, then I would defintely go with a Geo-Disc. I'm quite happy with one I bought from Turntablebasics for $20, but my inner-devil is telling me I must try out some other cartridge alignment tool.
Just remember to reinstall your counter weight before you lower your cart to check your alignment. Either way, I always enjoy taking a cigarette break(Outside) whenever I'm installing carts. Just take your time!!


Regards,

Zerodust is an incredible product. But dont pay $70 for it, go to audiogon and get one for $30 less. I got mine in Japan for around $15 brand new... I shoulda grab about 10 of them for vinyl lovers on a series budget.

JRA

JohnMichael
07-06-2007, 10:20 AM
If not, then I would defintely go with a Geo-Disc. I'm quite happy with one I bought from Turntablebasics for $20, but my inner-devil is telling me I must try out some other cartridge alignment tool.

Regards,

JRA



Listen to your inner-devil. You seemed pleased with the Turntablebasics alignment guage so I bought one. I am not sure which geometry they are using but it is not the Baerwald null points. I was not able to slide my cartridge far enough forward to use it with the Ortofon OM20 and Rega arm. I am thinking it might be the Lofgren geometry which is also used by the Feickert guage. The GeoDisc is an accurate, easy to use and fairly inexpensive guage. It stores nicely in the record storage area with my vinyl. I have had mine for many years long before MoFi brought it back.

hifitommy
07-08-2007, 10:45 AM
the music hall and pro-ject TTs are a good value and for more there is the vpi scout.

as for a clamp, i just think its essential, but not a weight.

cleaning on a belt drive is ok but sink washing with a discwasher or directional fabric brush and dawn is a very viable method. search the archives at AA.

dont bother with a round bubble level, get a bullet level and adjust in the left to right plane, then the front to back plane. the round one will frustrate you.

jrhymeammo
07-08-2007, 12:12 PM
Hi, Tommy.

It's always nice to read your posts in Analog section. I agree with you on round bubble level., but it's a lot better than just placing a TT on some convieniet shelf. But yeah, if anyone's gonna go out and buy a bubble, might as well be a bullet level. 3 adjustable cone/feet is a must, if not placed on an adjustable stand/platform. 2 in the front and one in the back center. Very effective for isolation and a proper setup.

I always value and agree to your suggestions, but I just don tthink DIY solution gets anything done. If anything, makes it noisier or grainy. If it truly works for you, then it shouldnt be a concern. But, since we both believe playing clean LPs is 100X mroe important than playing with a Walker deck, I'm truly confused with your suggestion. Mild dishsoap solution will leave residue on LP surface, especially if anyone lives in an area where hard water is inevitable. Rinsing LP in a sink just doesnt do it at all. I'm sure scrubbing will get more gunks out than some LAST 3drop cleaning system, but dont you think it's important to use proper fluid?

I think it's time I get a real RCM, I'm getting a LP Elbow..

Whatchu think HT?

JRA

jim goulding
07-14-2007, 11:58 PM
I bought a Nottingham Horizon about a year ago. Paid an even $1000. It comes with a Rega 250 arm. The Rega 300 is generally thought to be a better arm but I’m more comfortable with less. The 300 uses a spring to help it remain tangent to your records. That makes me nervous. It can be defeated, however. It’s claimed that it has superior bearings. That makes me suspicious. In any case, I didn’t hear an audible superiority auditioning the 300. Plus you’ll pay another $300 for it. I put the difference toward my phono cartridge, a Grado Sonata Reference. Recommend you look at the Aurum Beta S too from Clearaudio. These cartridges and just about every accessory you would ever need can be found at Acoustic Sounds online. I also own a belt drive Micro Seiki BL91 with a vintage Sugano Koetsu Black. It runs quiet and smooth. Sonics are luxurious. But my Horizon, etc., is very good for the money and has similar chacteristics. It’s imported by the same people who do Linn. I believe that’s a credit to it.

You can get a protractor online (printable) for free. I forget where but you might try putting “Cartridge alignment protractor” in Google and see what happens.

If your accustomed to CD, I think you will find a more sensual, bolder but more relaxed presentation from vinyl with a richer mid band. Doubt that I will get any argument on that.

I got a disc for you. Two, actually. Rough Mix with Peter Townsend and Ronnie Lane with the production overseen by Glyn Johns and If Only I Could Remember My Name with David Crosby with guests from the Airplane, the Dead, and I think Neil Young is on this, too. Get the 180 gram versions. The latter is seminal rock/pop from the early seventies period. Both of these records are statements of the recording art and music of the day. Check out Jack Casady’s bass playing and the depth of it without distortion. .

hifitommy
07-15-2007, 07:19 AM
I'm truly confused with your suggestion. Mild dishsoap solution will leave residue on LP surface, especially if anyone lives in an area where hard water is inevitable. Rinsing LP in a sink just doesnt do it at all.
JRA

well, i glossed over the fact that i use the sink sprayer copiously for the rinse phase and really take extra time rinsing. i've not experienced any deleterious effect from the use of dawn. we dont have hard water here but one could use his reverse osmosis water (but that would preclude the sink sprayer).

i suppose one could use a second brush (never used for the wash phase) for the rinse phase to dislodge any remaining dawn residue after spritzing and then spritz again. that would remove the doubt in one's mind that the dawn was gone.

and thanks JRA for the compliments.

;^)

jrhymeammo
07-15-2007, 07:27 AM
Okay then.

Good enough for me I guess, but not for my precious LP. I hope you place your sponge in a microwave for 30 sec after you used it. Mildew is a bad thing.... be sure to have a clean microwave as well. Ah hell, just buy a microwave just for your LP sponge!

Can we agree that alcohol based DIY solution adds more surface noise?

JRA

hifitommy
07-15-2007, 07:43 AM
NEVER touch my records. i bought my current uW because it had a POPCORN button! all kernels popped, never a burned one.

my circa 1979 toshiba oven worked fine but the new one weighs 1/3 of it and was cheeeeeper. THATS progress.

i will agree that nearly any fluid will leave its mark on the vinyl.

DPM
11-08-2007, 06:04 PM
Well, today I finally got around to pulling the trigger on a new turntable, and it's not a Project nor is it a Rega. In fact, I've gone over to the dark side (cue evil music here) and ordered a hot-rodded Techinics SL1200 from KAB. The modifications I requested are the fluid damper, the tonearm rewire, and the PS 1200 outboard power supply. Also, it will come with the KAB/Ortofon Concorde PRO S30 cartridge and KAB USA record clamp. (I decided to nix the screw clamp.)

So, in about a month I should be back to spinning the black musical gold. I still have to decide on an outboard phono amp. Creek? Bellari? Project? I also need other various items (record brush, stylus brush/cleaner, record sleeves, etc.), and I will acquire these in due course.

Regarding my purchase, I decided to go with direct drive partly because of familiarity (my previous table was also a Technics), but also build quality, pitch stability and being able to use a record brush on a spinning record played a part. The growing number of positive reviews from those who've experienced what this table has to offer only sweetened the pot.

Regarding my choice of cartridge, besides the Ortofon PRO S30, I was also considering the Audio Technica AT 150MLX, but the plug-and-play nature of the Ortofon won me over...for now. Also, the fact that my previous cartridge was an Ortofon OM 30 factored into my decision process.

Before placing my order, I called up Kevin at KAB. Despite being very busy (there is a three week waiting period for a table), he took the time to give me the rundown on the various upgrades for the Technics and answered my questions regarding cartridges and phono amps. Indeed, he came across as quite friendly and knowledgeable.

So, there you have it. In the final days of my turntable hunt it came down to the Project RM 6.1 SB (belt-drive) and the aforementioned Techinics (direct-drive). In the end, I decided on age before beauty, the old reliable before the unknown quantity, the uncool wallflower before the homecoming queen. Was I wrong? Stay tuned.

DM

jrhymeammo
11-10-2007, 02:09 PM
Cool Choice!

I personally prefers a belt-drive, but I think 6.1SB is overpriced for what it does. I've never found it to be anything special for the price. I would've went with Xpression 3 with acrylic platter and gloss finish. I got a ver.1 which was a good value($450), but version 3 looks to be a killer bargin.
Anyhow, congrats on your purchase. SL1200 is a tweakers' dream. They even offer a kit to install REGA arms. Freom what I've read, Sl's weakest link is its tonearm, but you already ordered a couple of tweaks for that. We would love to hear your impression of KAB SL once get it spinning.

What is your budget for your phono pre?
Doesn't your Tri-Vista offer a phono section? I would go with a high output MC cart before looking for a stand alone phonopre.

Whatchu think?

DPM
11-10-2007, 03:11 PM
Yes, my Tri-Vista integrated amp does have a phono stage, but the turntable is going into a secondary system in my computer room. Here, it will be mated with a Proceed PAV analog preamp, a Fostex CR300 Pro CD recorder, a Cal. Audio Labs Icon MK II (which is showing signs of imminent demise), a Creek OBH 11 headphone amp, and a pair of Sennheiser HD 650 headphones. (I also have a pair of Energy Ref. Con. 22 speakers, but I need to find an amp to power them.)

My plan for now is to find vinyl copies of recordings that have either never been released on CD or have been released but have gone out of print. I will then dub these in real time onto CDRW disks. These in turn will be dubbed in real time onto CDR disks. It is during this time that I will manually add track markers and edit out any long gaps between tracks.

The advantage of using CDRW disks during the LP transfer is I can ride the gain a bit to account for any volume differences between tracks. And if I overshoot the mark I won't have destroyed a CDR.

Regarding your first question, my budget for a phono preamp is fluctuating between $250.00 and $500.00. Right now the front runners are the Bellari VP 129, the Project Phono Box SE and the Project Tube Box II. All of these have a subsonic filter which is a MUST HAVE option in my book.