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Sealed
02-22-2004, 08:37 AM
Disappointments:
I will cut to the chase: Wilson-Benesch had a wide-open setup in a huge Mariott lobby area. They were playing a Led zeppelin LP. The sound was unspeakably flabby, boomy, zingy. In short, totally horrible. Other music sounded the same way. B&W had some kind of drug-induced display concept going in the VIP lounge. They had ten randomly placed nautilus 805 bookshelves. They were simply making atmospheric sounds. This was a dumb display.
Meridian, had a ₤100,000+ sound system set up consisting of three ₤26,000 dsp8000 speakers, with four dsp-5000 speakers and a stack of processors, transports etc. You’d expect to be at least amazed. But the bass far overwhelmed the room. The bass sounded boomy, flabby, slow, disjointed and the whole setup sucked. The Meridian was easily the most elaborate and expensive setup. This was an unforgivably inept demonstration of what should be an ultimate high-end experience. I thought the Naim speakers as well as kef, Mordaunt short, and most if the HT setups sounded like boom and sizzle. I was not sure Naim could make decent speakers. Now I am convinced they cannot.

I wanted to like seventh veil, but alas, on a lot of material there was a strident bite to the upper midrange. Otherwise, they did a lot of things right. Eclipse wasn’t too big of a thrill for me, they sounded “incomplete.” There were a few flat, designer speakers that failed to impress. The new JM labs diva sounded pretty good, except I could hear a definite “pipe organ” effect around 40hz. It was no doubt that front port coloring the low bass. The diva did not impress me for a speaker costing the better part of $7k. That bass colouration ruined it for me. I detected a bit of it from the Alto utopia also. My philosophy on ports is summed up by PMC. PMC points out that vented designs have very poor bass control below the tuned resonance of the port. In this case, many ports are tuned to 30 or 40hz. Give me sealed, passive radiator or TL designs over ports any day.

The ribbons on display (some from Australia) had a bit of an upper mid suck out where they cross over to the ribbons. They were lossy in the xover region, but did well otherwise. The Totem rainmaker display was kind of blah. But vendors seem to be playing too much crappy hip-hop, pop and other lousy recordings because they are popular. Once again, B&W showed to me that the 700 series is dreck. That tweeter was hopelessly bad sounding. It was obvious the N805 were in a different league than the 700 series.

The best sound of show? No one system sounded the best. But those that had killer sound include:

PMC- the GB-1’s knocked my socks off. They had snappy dynamics, excellent detail, bone-crunching low bass. The snap of a standing bass was awesome. These speakers do it all. They were mated to the Bryston B-60 integrated. All this from 60 watts! Bryston gear does sound great, especially the new SST series amps. The bigger PMC OB1 are a force to be reckoned with and a good contender for ATC scm-35’s. I think among new Brit speakers, PMC and ATC are my favorite. Kudos also go to EPOS, living voice and ProAc.

Exposure: Understated company with Vandersteen 2Ce signatures made incredibly good music! When I convinced them to quit playing that pop rubbish and put on some acoustic jazz… everyone simply shut up and listened! It was great!

EPOS: the ultimate giant killers! The flagship EPOS tower goes for $1500. The little ES 12’s sell for under $1000. Yet they equaled or bettered much more expensive speakers. The floor standers for $1500 blew the Monitor Audio GR60’s away for over $1000 less. These are the best inexpensive speakers I have ever listened to. Acoustic energy has nothing on EPOS.

Living Voice: MTM floor standers were superb! These speakers were smooth, musical, dynamic and very transparent. Nice decay.

WA audio: these guys painstakingly carve out blocks of limestone to make incredibly heavy and inert speakers. They use top-quality parts like seas millennia, Scan speak revelator and ATC mid domes. They sound fantastic! Alas, they are painfully expensive. The small models go for ₤4000+

Jm labs: the Alto Utopia were quite nice, but insanely expensive. Something almost affordable: the micro utopia BE demonstrated that the new beryllium tweeter outclasses the focal tioxid predecessor in every way. There are killer bookshelf speakers. Very smooth and musical.

Km acoustics KMS190/290 were quite good. The surprising thing is that they use metal cone woofers and focal tioxid tweeters. This red flags “warning…brightness ahead” not so! These were punchy, detailed, airy, low coloration and not overly bright at all.

Dynaudio: the small Dynaudio contour and confidence were great little speakers. I like dynaudio’s 2 way speakers, but am not a fan of the multi way speakers they make. They had a nice sounding set up.

Proac: the new d38 are drop-dead gorgeous and sound excellent. Alas, they are very close to $10k. Proac makes music with an ever-so-gentle mid.

The Nordost/Audiopax room was very nice also.

That’s pretty much it for the outstanding rooms. The other rooms were good, fair, and poor. Most of the HT rooms were crappy for music.

I passed up what could have been a killer deal. Rega Planar 25 with RB 300 arm and cart was on sale for about $950 USD, or just under ½ price.

Dali had the most beautiful looking speakers of the show! Knock out gorgeous! I had very limited listening time with them due to the crowds.

Arcam had the best looking marketing rep…what a beauty!

Vibe had a dual 15” subwoofer. That thing is HHHHUUUUUGE! Probably the biggest sub made in the UK…ever. It has 8 4” ports that are actually quasi-TL labyrinth. Made the biggest REL sub look portable.

I won a set of Ecosse Ic’s. The guys in one of the demo rooms was playing some female vocals. They asked what language was being sung. I just said “NORSK!!!” and they said ! “Norwegian! He’s right!...give him the wires!”

Tourist On Tilt
04-08-2004, 04:45 AM
Great post. Incidentally I was also trying to choose between PMC (FB1 in this case) and ATC 35 to be driven by my Bryston B25/4BST. Both are great speakers, I first heard PMC at Heathrow Hi-Fi show, and liked the shear scale of the sound, slightly let down by a mechanical, matter-of-fact character. But knowing that PMC is linked to Bryston and therefore should be a decent match, I tried them first. With some type of music they really shine, but after a critical audition I had no doubts - ATS 35 were fundamentally more accomplished, honest, versatile and potent audiophile design.
But if you ever decide to part with £2,000 and buy them - be aware: these suckers are mercyless. They will demand better cables, power supplies, cords, strips, DACs, bi-wire, tri-wire - you name it. Any upgrade - and they respond, sound better and better. A very classy stuff indeed.

Sealed
04-08-2004, 07:20 AM
Great post. Incidentally I was also trying to choose between PMC (FB1 in this case) and ATC 35 to be driven by my Bryston B25/4BST. Both are great speakers, I first heard PMC at Heathrow Hi-Fi show, and liked the shear scale of the sound, slightly let down by a mechanical, matter-of-fact character. But knowing that PMC is linked to Bryston and therefore should be a decent match, I tried them first. With some type of music they really shine, but after a critical audition I had no doubts - ATS 35 were fundamentally more accomplished, honest, versatile and potent audiophile design.
But if you ever decide to part with £2,000 and buy them - be aware: these suckers are mercyless. They will demand better cables, power supplies, cords, strips, DACs, bi-wire, tri-wire - you name it. Any upgrade - and they respond, sound better and better. A very classy stuff indeed.

I can say that the scm-35 are probably more accomplished in terms of balance. The SCM-35's demand rock solid, no kidding high current and quality sources. PMC might have more of an easy load, and bigger dynamics. This would not be an easy choice, and you could not lose either way. Probably a tougher choice would be PMC OB-1 Vs Scm-35. The ATC's are musically a very formidable challenger. I cannot say that I would feel slighted by buying either brand. They both represent world-class quality and Britain's finest.

Sealed
04-08-2004, 07:47 AM
Great post. Incidentally I was also trying to choose between PMC (FB1 in this case) and ATC 35 to be driven by my Bryston B25/4BST. Both are great speakers, I first heard PMC at Heathrow Hi-Fi show, and liked the shear scale of the sound, slightly let down by a mechanical, matter-of-fact character. But knowing that PMC is linked to Bryston and therefore should be a decent match, I tried them first. With some type of music they really shine, but after a critical audition I had no doubts - ATS 35 were fundamentally more accomplished, honest, versatile and potent audiophile design.
But if you ever decide to part with £2,000 and buy them - be aware: these suckers are mercyless. They will demand better cables, power supplies, cords, strips, DACs, bi-wire, tri-wire - you name it. Any upgrade - and they respond, sound better and better. A very classy stuff indeed.

I can say that the scm-35 are probably more accomplished in terms of balance. The SCM-35's demand rock solid, no kidding high current and quality sources. PMC might have more of an easy load, and bigger dynamics. This would not be an easy choice, and you could not lose either way. Probably a tougher choice would be PMC OB-1 Vs Scm-35. The ATC's are musically a very formidable challenger. I cannot say that I would feel slighted by buying either brand. They both represent world-class quality and Britain's finest.

Tourist On Tilt
04-08-2004, 09:49 AM
[QUOTE=Sealed]. Probably a tougher choice would be PMC OB-1 Vs Scm-35.

I heard OB-1 once (was listening to a Robert Cray compilation album), and for some reason I had an uneasy feeling that the sound was in a way disjointed, as if the bass, no doubt impressive, played it own music. Was it really lagging or was it me thinking about the TL and whether if causes any time smear? I don't know, I just listened to 4 or 5 songs. Then I just thought - if I choose PCM I'll stick to some of my records because others would not sound good enough to me. And that's the last thing we all need. ATCs are not as explicit at the freq. extremes - the hights are ever so slightly rolled off and lower bass in not as evident and tactile, but overall I somehow felt much more comfortable with ATCs. They have this wonderful quality of being laid back, easy going and cultured - only to sparkle and burst with huge dynamic sound when needed. Add to this their fundamentally neutral tonality. I own it for more than a month now and never get tired of them. Whatever the reviews say, it does not demand an enourmous amount of power - my Brystons' 250 W p/ch is way more than enough. You are right in that they like being driven hard, but ATCs happily responded to my old and modest Exposure XX integrated, if played not loud. And it's just 55W. So, about 100W is enough by all means. AVi Lab integrated drives them with ease - bass is SO great! It's just not quite transparent and detailed enough in the mids for them. Bryston P60 also drives them well at low levels, I just do not like it's lower registers - warm and not very well controlled to my ears. I tried it with Musical Fidelity A308 - a monstrous integrated. As you would say - dreck, some uninspiring milky mids, lousy hum, a lot of blue lights enough for a Christmas tree and one big cartoonish volume knob. And by the way, ATCs were quite ruthless in showing how in fact distorted, congested and one-dimentional are Exposure's mids too. But it's not that Exposure is bad - I love it, and with lesser speakers it sounds brilliant. Yes, and it's actually for sale if anyone is still interested.
Ultimately, if you can not choose between OB 1 and ATC 35 - your room must be one big factor to consider. I suspect OB1 just needs a bigger room.

Sealed
04-08-2004, 09:58 AM
[QUOTE=Sealed]. Probably a tougher choice would be PMC OB-1 Vs Scm-35.

I heard OB-1 once (was listening to a Robert Cray compilation album), and for some reason I had an uneasy feeling that the sound was in a way disjointed, as if the bass, no doubt impressive, played it own music. Was it really lagging or was it me thinking about the TL and whether if causes any time smear? I don't know, I just listened to 4 or 5 songs. Then I just thought - if I choose PCM I'll stick to some of my records because others would not sound good enough to me. And that's the last thing we all need. ATCs are not as explicit at the freq. extremes - the hights are ever so slightly rolled off and lower bass in not as evident and tactile, but overall I somehow felt much more comfortable with ATCs. They have this wonderful quality of being laid back, easy going and cultured - only to sparkle and burst with huge dynamic sound when needed. Add to this their fundamentally neutral tonality. I own it for more than a month now and never get tired of them. Whatever the reviews say, it does not demand an enourmous amount of power - my Brystons' 250 W p/ch is way more than enough. You are right in that they like being driven hard, but ATCs happily responded to my old and modest Exposure XX integrated, if played not loud. And it's just 55W. So, about 100W is enough by all means. AVi Lab integrated drives them with ease - bass is SO great! It's just not quite transparent and detailed enough in the mids for them. Bryston P60 also drives them well at low levels, I just do not like it's lower registers - warm and not very well controlled to my ears. I tried it with Musical Fidelity A308 - a monstrous integrated. As you would say - dreck, some uninspiring milky mids, lousy hum, a lot of blue lights enough for a Christmas tree and one big cartoonish volume knob.
Ultimately, if you can not choose between OB 1 and ATC 35 - your room must be one big factor to consider. I suspect OB1 just needs a bigger room.

1. The MF 308 is not dreck by any measure. The mids were crystalline and the response was among the finest integrateds I have heard at any price (and most certainly +/- about 1,000 GBP of the MF price.

2. The TL bass is the cheif complaint about some PMC models. The *least* lag seemed to be from the GB-1.

3. Overall, I'd say the SCM-35 would be my preference also, albiet: I would use my modified MF 308 separates to power them, nothing less. I feel that 100 wpc is tip-toeing. A beefy 200+ does the trick.

4. The Exposure gear did not sound harsh with vandersteen 2ce's, but again, they were separates not integrateds. The vandies are forgiving, but revealing of crappy gear all at the same time

Tourist On Tilt
04-08-2004, 10:56 AM
[QUOTE=Sealed]I would use my modified MF 308 separates to power them, nothing less.

Uups! Damn. Sorry about the 308, on the second thought the big knob looks fantastic. And the lights - well, only enough for a SMALL Christmas tree. :p
But the mids.. I listened to it in my home with ATCs - damn milky. OK, very low fat milky, but still... And it WAS noisy. Not my piece of cake. Maybe it takes too long for it to run in, I dont know. Maybe it's pre- section is affected by high current, don't know. It worked for 5 hours and was spilling milk till I switched it off. Never heard MF separates, only read some rave stuff, I'm sure it's a different kind of fish. But with integrateds back to back, honestly, I preferred AVi.

100 watts - that was my estimate. I thought of trying it with Exposure 3010, it's about 120W., just for fun, but then desided not to as it's not in ATC league anyway. If I did I would know better. Have you heard ATCs with less powerful speakers?

Tourist On Tilt
04-08-2004, 10:59 AM
I mean - amplifiers? :mad:

Sealed
04-08-2004, 11:16 AM
I mean - amplifiers? :mad:

The ATC's do not produce satisfactory dynamics, nor do they open up under a fat 200 wpc IMO.

I have heard the ATC's (in Bucklesham) with naim, ATC, MF and other amps. The 150 wpc separate ATC amps sounded good, but they were expensive, and minimum IMO for the scm-35.

The SCM-35 needs mega current to really sound good. Less than 200 wpc, IMO is cutting them off at the knees.

Tourist On Tilt
04-08-2004, 11:32 AM
The best power amp to control ATCs that I heard was ES-labs 40x - I never heard such a firm bass. But then again it's about 200W and it's digital. Combination with ATC's sealed cabinet gave a great effect.

Jimrod
09-22-2004, 01:52 PM
Just thought I would make a small point; You are basing all of these comments which seem very detailed on listening at a show? This is probably the worst place to listen to hi-fi, small bedrooms packed with gear and everyone competing for volume. The room is as big a factor in the sound of a system as any component, if not more so. Please bear this in mind when saying "there was an slight suck out at 72hz and you could hear the 3rd order crossover capacitor was obviously a lower grade silicon than blah blah blah"...

Whilst some things will undoubtedly sound good even in these conditions it does not mean that much other than that they are more suited to that particular location.

The only true way to test is in the room they are going to be used with the same background conditions, or at least one as similar as possible.