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Shake The Rug
06-22-2007, 07:40 PM
I have a Yamaha RX-V559 receiver. Whenever I play movies in Dolby Digital surround, the center channel which has dialog is often hard to hear when background music is being played through the right and left speakers. The music seems to bury the spoken words which do not cut through as much as I like. It happens when I'm watching tv as well. I remember watching an episode of "24" and the background music coming out of the right and left front speakers (which can get very intense and dramatic) made it very hard to hear the actors speak from the center channel. From what I understand, I have 2 options. Either manipulate the center channel graphic equalizer or simply boost the level of just the center speaker. When I do either of these things, I can hear the dialog much better and everything is fine. The frustrating part is that I don't have this problem when playing music concert dvds. And if I have raised the level of the center channel when listening to a music dvd, the center channel overpowers that other speakers that are playing the different instruments. I don't feel like having to go back and forth with the center channel speaker level but maybe I have to. Here a few questions I have..

1) Is this a common issue for anyone else?
2) Would you recommend using graphic equalizer or boosting speaker level?

Many thanks in advance!

PeruvianSkies
06-22-2007, 08:55 PM
Well, well, well....Good ole' Dolby Digital....

I suspect that there could be a few problems here and I'll attempt to address them as much as I can without actually being able to touch or see your setup. The first thing that I would check is that your receiver is accurately detecting your speakers distance and output level, this can be done through the receivers setup mode. Often times you can do it manually or automatically if you have a microphone provided by the receiver to do the audio tests. If you do not have a receiver with that function than you simply need to do it with your own ears. Also make sure that your speakers are set for the right size, such as small, medium, or large.

Now, if all of your receiver settings seem to be accurate than I would also check the actual surround sound setting that you are using. I always use the default setting, which is sometimes labeled as 'standard', this means that the receiver will not manipulate the sound by doing things like 'enhanced surround' or '6-track stereo' etc etc. Most receivers have several settings, but this can alter your center channel in relation to your left and rights and might be the culprit as well.

The third culprit in this matter could be the stations that you are getting through your TV, I am guessing that you are using a digital coax from your cable box? Or are you getting the connection straight from your TV? TV stations that are coming through in 5.1 should come through your receiver as Dolby Digital 5.1, I've noticed though that some of the High-Def channels only broadcast in stereo or 4.0, with no center channel and it's a huge mistake on their part. Other stations have more sound from the center channel and the receiver is in standard Pro-Logic setting.

The final culprit could be either a mismatched set of speakers that you are using or a huge difference in cable length, which might also be altering your sound levels and that should also be checked out during the initial calibration.

KEEP US POSTED ON YOUR PROGESS WITH THIS!

pixelthis
06-23-2007, 12:10 AM
I had a similar problem, turns out my l+r speakers had levels too high.
And if your receiver uses one of those mics forget it you need a sound level meter from radio shack, follow the instructions and set all of your speakers to 70db (dolby reference)
Also on my yamaha there was a setting for adding 10 db to your center
You could just activate this and when you play a concert deactivate it, a simple one button solution,
hope this helps

Shake The Rug
06-23-2007, 06:40 AM
The length of cable isn't an issue because it's relatively the same as the front left and right speakers. It's funny though because I never thought of the front left and right speakers being set to high. My receiver did not come with one of those microphones. Can you send me some sort of link to that Radio Shack meter you are referring to? I'm also not familiar with the one push button +10db. Is it on the front of the receiver and/or the remote?

L.J.
06-23-2007, 07:13 AM
SPL Meter (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103668&cp=&sr=1&origkw=analog+sound+meter&kw=analog+sound+meter&parentPage=search)

royphil345
06-23-2007, 11:31 AM
In my system, I found timing makes a big difference in how clear dialog sounds. I had the same problem. Dialog seemed weak and hard to follow at times, yet the level balance seemed correct, especially with music. Try adjusting the delay times if your receiver allows. Try moving the center speaker or main speakers back or forward a bit. Did the trick for me.

If boosting the level of your center channel a bit for TV and movies is what works for you... just do it... no big deal...

Shake The Rug
06-23-2007, 11:38 AM
In my system, I found timing makes a big difference in how clear dialog sounds. I had the same problem. Dialog seemed weak and hard to follow at times, yet the level balance seemed correct, especially with music. Try adjusting the delay times if your receiver allows. Try moving the center speaker or main speakers back or forward a bit. Did the trick for me.

If boosting the level of your center channel a bit for TV and movies is works for you... just do it... no big deal...

That's an interesting idea I may try that. And you're right, if I have to make the boosting changes every now and then, it's no big deal. My speakers are fine and I'm not having a "major" problem per se. Just sometimes the dialog is hard to make out. I'm really not interested in spending 50 bucks on a sound level meter. Never really looked into changing the delay. How do you do that?

L.J.
06-23-2007, 01:01 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but to go along with Roy's comments on moving the center, you can aim your center toward the listening position. I'm assuming it's above or below ear level.

By the way, the 50 I dropped on my SPL meter has been one of the best upgrades I've made.

Woochifer
06-23-2007, 02:50 PM
As others have suggested, you should setup a baseline measurement using either the YPAO calibration or manually with a SPL meter, and match all of the speaker levels accordingly. I don't know how much the microphone for the receiver costs compared to a SPL meter, but either way an accurate measurement and calibration will help improve your system performance.

On my system, even with a matching center speaker, I still need to use a +4.0 db offset in order to match its level with the mains. If you're not using a matching center speaker, there can be even more audible differences in the sensitivity and the voice characteristics between the main and center speakers. The placement of the center speaker and the room acoustics will also alter the levels. This is why you want to use the SPL meter or auto calibration to match the levels.

Even with the center speaker level matched though, it's still common practice with 5.1 soundtracks for the sound engineers to mix the effects at a level that can easily drown out the dialog. That has nothing to do with the equipment, the cable length, or the audio format, just a choice on the part of the filmmakers and/or sound designers. If you don't like that for a particular movie, nothing wrong with raising the levels on the center channel.

Royphil's point about the center speaker delay is a good one. Generally, the center channel will sound more "close up" if the center channel sounds arrive at your listening position sooner than the mains. Your receiver should automatically set the delay timing when you enter the distances for the individual channels, alter the delay by shortening the center channel distance.

Hashpot
06-23-2007, 04:04 PM
"I'm also not familiar with the one push button +10db. Is it on the front of the receiver and/or the remote?"


The setting should be on your reciever's menu on my Onkyo the setup menu is called the audio adjust, also set the distant for the center

fudgemik
06-24-2007, 06:57 AM
the sound effects drowned the center out because this is my educated guess, there is a dynamic range setting on Yamaha receivers and they are set to max by default , put it on normal and you will hear the effects drop a bit, very nice feature that some receivers don't have.........

royphil345
06-24-2007, 07:17 AM
Good point...

My receiver and a couple DVD players have those settings too. It's really hard to tell sometimes which setting doesn't alter the original signal and which settings digitally enhance or compress the dynamics. Very frustrating when you're trying to set up a system and I wish the manufacturers would be more clear on that.

O'Shag
06-25-2007, 10:53 PM
Check that the speaker wire is making proper contact with center speaker binding posts, and that there is no oxidixation either on the connectors or the cable itself, which can have the effect of attenuating the signal. You also might try another coax cable. You might contact Yamaha if the receiver is still under warranty and purchased from an authorized dealer. Their customer service is not too bad.

pixelthis
06-27-2007, 12:57 AM
That's an interesting idea I may try that. And you're right, if I have to make the boosting changes every now and then, it's no big deal. My speakers are fine and I'm not having a "major" problem per se. Just sometimes the dialog is hard to make out. I'm really not interested in spending 50 bucks on a sound level meter. Never really looked into changing the delay. How do you do that?
The radio shack meter is a classic and sells for 30 bucks or so. I couldnt live without mine.
Most receivers have a provision for boosting the center, its usually in the speaker setup menu.
Just remember that the center is the most important part of a ht soundstage, the L+R are really just effects speakers, so get a good un.
Mine cost 300 bucks and my front pair 550, but a good center is worth every penny,
and you can spend thousands on one

Shake The Rug
06-27-2007, 08:42 AM
The radio shack meter is a classic and sells for 30 bucks or so. I couldnt live without mine.
Most receivers have a provision for boosting the center, its usually in the speaker setup menu.
Just remember that the center is the most important part of a ht soundstage, the L+R are really just effects speakers, so get a good un.
Mine cost 300 bucks and my front pair 550, but a good center is worth every penny,
and you can spend thousands on one

Ok so many folks are praising their radio shack meters. Can someone give me a detailed description as to why they are so important and how "you couldn't live without one?" Are speakers and receivers so out of whack that you have to go to a meter to fine tune everything? Just seems odd to me.

recoveryone
06-27-2007, 12:29 PM
Its not so much that the receivers or speakers are out of wack, but the room acoustics that effect the sound coming from the AVR/Speakers. Most of us do not have a special viewing/listening room that was custom built just with acoustic in mind.

So with devices such as the highly tauted RS (analog) sound meter you are able to make adjustments to the output of each speaker to over come the short comings of your room acoustics, or get a AVR that has the built in mic setup feature. Either will make your listening more enjoyable.

Woochifer
06-27-2007, 12:52 PM
Ok so many folks are praising their radio shack meters. Can someone give me a detailed description as to why they are so important and how "you couldn't live without one?" Are speakers and receivers so out of whack that you have to go to a meter to fine tune everything? Just seems odd to me.

As recoveryone said, it's not about anything being "out of whack" it has to do with making sure that your equipment is optimally setup for your particular room's acoustical conditions. Every room is different, and the room will interact with your speakers in ways that alter the levels, the tonal characteristics, and the time domain coherency. In addition, variations will also crop up depending on how your align your speakers (i.e., are they all setup at an identical distance and symmetrical in their off-axis angles?).

Just because the electrical signal getting sent to the speakers is at an identical level does not mean that the sound reaching you ears will be at an identical level. The SPL meter measurement ensures you have an accurate baseline measurement that level matches all of your speakers. The imaging coherency and surround effect are greatly enhanced when you level match the speakers and have them aligned correctly.

The Radio Shack SPL meter is often cited because it's widely available and inexpensive, and its accuracy (and inaccuracies) have been widely documented.

pixelthis
06-29-2007, 01:16 AM
Ok so many folks are praising their radio shack meters. Can someone give me a detailed description as to why they are so important and how "you couldn't live without one?" Are speakers and receivers so out of whack that you have to go to a meter to fine tune everything? Just seems odd to me.
A spl (sound pressure level) meter measures the sound and is used by musicans, etc.
HT types set the range to 70db (dolby reference level) and play the test tone on their receiver, you adjust the level until the meter "zeros" out.
This works for everything except the sub. Once you do this your ht will will be adjusted
properly as far as sound levels are concerned
Can you live without one? Sure, but I like the way a well adjusted system sounds

sam9
06-30-2007, 04:01 PM
This problem happens sometimes even if you follow set up procedures to the letter. Most AVRs will have somewhere in the menu system let you manually adjust just the center channel. On mine adding 2-3dB more than the what the instructions & spl meter say I should do takes care of it. What I would really like to see is a feature that can tell whether you are watching a movie or just listening to multichannel sound and add 3dB to the standard setting if it is a movie.

Shake The Rug
07-02-2007, 06:02 AM
someone lent me their spl meter! I'm gonna check everything when I get home tonight

Shake The Rug
07-02-2007, 05:24 PM
Ok I have a few questions about the spl meter. I have it set to "C" weighting and on "slow" response as instructed. For my Yamaha receiver, should I set the meter to 80? Or does it not matter? Also, should I set the volume on the receiver to zero (which is pretty loud)? The reason I ask is that under the parameters I just mentioned, the front left speaker measured at +4 dbs. Isn't that a little too out of whack? I can't imagine having to bring the level on the speaker down that much.. or maybe I do which is the whole point of this process. I just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

Woochifer
07-02-2007, 07:09 PM
Ok I have a few questions about the spl meter. I have it set to "C" weighting and on "slow" response as instructed. For my Yamaha receiver, should I set the meter to 80? Or does it not matter? Also, should I set the volume on the receiver to zero (which is pretty loud)? The reason I ask is that under the parameters I just mentioned, the front left speaker measured at +4 dbs. Isn't that a little too out of whack? I can't imagine having to bring the level on the speaker down that much.. or maybe I do which is the whole point of this process. I just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

A variation of 4 db is not at all unusual, and could very well explain why you can't hear the center speaker at times.

A volume setting of zero is way too loud unless the test tone is at a very low level. That said, don't worry about the volume setting. Worry more about what the SPL meter reading gives you. The usual procedure is to use the main speakers as your reference level (a reading of 80 db using the test tone is fine) and then adjust the center and surround speaker levels so that they match whatever SPL meter reading you obtain on the mains. If the levels on the mains don't match, use the L-R Balance adjustment to ensure that the two mains are at the same level.

A lot of the posters on this board like to set the subwoofer level to at least +4 db above the other speaker (this is because your ears are less sensitive in the lower bass). You might want to give that a try as well.

If you have a camera tripod, you should try mounting the SPL meter at a 45 degree angle pointing directly towards the center point at about ear level from where you normally sit. Your body will reflect/absorb the sound waves, and you need to ensure that the SPL meter is held at the same position for all readings, so the tripod can help you obtain more consistent readings.

Shake The Rug
07-02-2007, 07:20 PM
A variation of 4 db is not at all unusual, and could very well explain why you can't hear the center speaker at times.

A volume setting of zero is way too loud unless the test tone is at a very low level. That said, don't worry about the volume setting. Worry more about what the SPL meter reading gives you. The usual procedure is to use the main speakers as your reference level (a reading of 80 db using the test tone is fine) and then adjust the center and surround speaker levels so that they match whatever SPL meter reading you obtain on the mains. If the levels on the mains don't match, use the L-R Balance adjustment to ensure that the two mains are at the same level.

A lot of the posters on this board like to set the subwoofer level to at least +4 db above the other speaker (this is because your ears are less sensitive in the lower bass). You might want to give that a try as well.

If you have a camera tripod, you should try mounting the SPL meter at a 45 degree angle pointing directly towards the center point at about ear level from where you normally sit. Your body will reflect/absorb the sound waves, and you need to ensure that the SPL meter is held at the same position for all readings, so the tripod can help you obtain more consistent readings.

Ok so in other words, it doesn't matter how high I turn the volume up when the test tone is sent through each speaker? I just turned it up because at low volume the spl meter wasn't picking up any readings at all. I don't have a tripod which makes me a little nervous because I don't want to do this incorrectly and set my speaker levels to the incorrect positions and be worse off then when I started. :-)