Blockbuster to favor Blu-ray HD discs over DVD format

[L.J.]

LOS ANGELES - Blockbuster Inc. will rent high-definition DVDs only in the Blu-ray format in 1,450 stores when it expands its high-def offerings next month, dealing a major blow to the rival HD DVD format.

The move, being announced Monday, could be the first step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market.

Blockbuster has been renting both Blu-ray and HD DVD titles in 250 stores since late last year and found that consumers were choosing Blu-ray titles more than 70 percent of the time.........

http://www.elpasotimes.com/entertainment/ci_6164939


Found this at another forum and thought I'd post it here. Any thoughts?

[kexodusc]

Found this at another forum and thought I'd post it here. Any thoughts?

Yeah, glad I didn't buy that HD-DVD player Friday - I found one that early Toshiba model on sale for $215. Looks like those things are gonna be orphans soon enough.

[PeruvianSkies]

LOS ANGELES - Blockbuster Inc. will rent high-definition DVDs only in the Blu-ray format in 1,450 stores when it expands its high-def offerings next month, dealing a major blow to the rival HD DVD format.

The move, being announced Monday, could be the first step in resolving a format war that has kept confused consumers from rushing to buy new DVD players until they can determine which format will dominate the market.

Blockbuster has been renting both Blu-ray and HD DVD titles in 250 stores since late last year and found that consumers were choosing Blu-ray titles more than 70 percent of the time.........

http://www.elpasotimes.com/entertainment/ci_6164939


Found this at another forum and thought I'd post it here. Any thoughts?

Not sure if anyone here remembers the thread where I said this awhile back, but this doesn't surprise me too much. Two reasons: PS3 and appeal factor. People tend to gravitate towards things that are eye-appealing and the color 'blue' is known to stimulate more attention than 'red' when it comes to advertising. As silly as it sounds if you walk down an aisle filled with both formats you can check to see where you are drawn in as a test. Also, PS3, whether it is dominating xBox or not, is definitely drawing more people towards Blu-ray.

[kexodusc]

Two reasons: PS3 and appeal factor. People tend to gravitate towards things that are eye-appealing and the color 'blue' is known to stimulate more attention than 'red' when it comes to advertising. As silly as it sounds if you walk down an aisle filled with both formats you can check to see where you are drawn in as a test.

This is a major reason why most major operating systems come stock with blue window borders/backgrounds etc. Doesn't hold true when it comes to cars, for some reason.



Also, PS3, whether it is dominating xBox or not, is definitely drawing more people towards Blu-ray.
This is part of the reason too. Though the biggest reason IMO is the studio support. Fewer people will support a crippled format and I don't doubt for one minute that customers who are adopting this early were smart enough to do their homework...well the ones that have bought BluRay at least...

When you think about it...it's amazing that BluRay is winning a war of a mostly homogeneous product despite a terrible early price disadvantage on both the hardware and the software.

[PeruvianSkies]

This is a major reason why most major operating systems come stock with blue window borders/backgrounds etc. Doesn't hold true when it comes to cars, for some reason.


This is part of the reason too. Though the biggest reason IMO is the studio support. Fewer people will support a crippled format and I don't doubt for one minute that customers who are adopting this early were smart enough to do their homework...well the ones that have bougth BluRay at least...

When you think about it...it's amazing that BluRay is winning a war of a mostly homogeneous product despite a terrible early price disadvantage on both the hardware and the software.

Disney titles are ALWAYS strong sellers and the fact that Disney went with Blu-ray and although they only have a few titles out at the moment, they are going to be a strong factor later on in the war, especially once they start releasing their vault!

[nightflier]

This is a major reason why most major operating systems come stock with blue window borders/backgrounds etc. Doesn't hold true when it comes to cars, for some reason.

...that geniuses will choose green cars and I haven't seen many of those on the road lately. Maybe it's just me, but I've always associated blue with a follow-the-leader lemming-type crowd. Blue may be "pretty" but it's not really a thinking man's color, I think. Then again, maybe that's why marketers and advertising firms are pushing blue? It's the mainstream that does most of the buying & consuming (I guess geniuses know better).

Even with a/v equipment, I tend to see blue digital displays at Sharper Image, BB, K-mart, and Costco, but the higher end stuff has green or red displays (Think CJ, Arcam, Krell, etc). I'm sure there will be exceptions. PS Audio seems to like blue, but then again they are also making a big push into the mainstream with cheaper China produced goods sold through Crutchfield (another blue-camp stalwart).

Anyhow, back to the Blu-Ray / HD-DVD debate:

- What is NetFlix' take on this? (What do you know, they are in the red camp). If they were to go the other way, it would definitely add fuel to this fire.

- Will Blockbuster (blue camp) be selling all their HD-DVD stock at bargain prices?

- Was Toshiba (red camp) stock affected by the Blockbuster announcement?

- Any preliminary Walmart HD-DVD sales figures (blue company with red product - this may not work)?

Just my own observation in my own neck of the woods, but it certainly seems like the store shelves are about 75% Blu-ray, now. I'm still waiting for regular DVD prices to drop, but somehow that kind of effect is not yet trickling down.

[kexodusc]

...that geniuses will choose green cars and I haven't seen many of those on the road lately. Maybe it's just me, but I've always associated blue with a follow-the-leader lemming-type crowd. Blue may be "pretty" but it's not really a thinking man's color, I think. [QUOTE]
WTF? Based on what? Besides, Al Gore invented the internet and discovered Global Warming, and he likes Blue way more than Red. :biggrin5:

[QUOTE]Then again, maybe that's why marketers and advertising firms are pushing blue? It's the mainstream that does most of the buying & consuming (I guess geniuses know better).

Even with a/v equipment, I tend to see blue digital displays at Sharper Image, BB, K-mart, and Costco, but the higher end stuff has green or red displays (Think CJ, Arcam, Krell, etc). I'm sure there will be exceptions. PS Audio seems to like blue, but then again they are also making a big push into the mainstream with cheaper China produced goods sold through Crutchfield (another blue-camp stalwart).
I like Purple.


- What is NetFlix' take on this? (What do you know, they are in the red camp). If they were to go the other way, it would definitely add fuel to this fire.
Dunno, but the #1 product in one industry supporting the #1 product in another kinda makes what the #2 players do irrelevant.

- Will Blockbuster (blue camp) be selling all their HD-DVD stock at bargain prices?
At 13% of their stores or so...


- Was Toshiba (red camp) stock affected by the Blockbuster announcement?
No, it actually went up. But keep in mind the royalties to be gained off BluRay or HD-DVD licensing are insignificant next to the revenue stream and profits to be earned from selling the hardware itself. DVD showed us that. An overwhelming victory for HD-DVD would probably have about as much impact on Toshiba's stock. Either that or the market is interpreting this as a sign Toshiba will focus on something more favorable to shareholders?


- Any preliminary Walmart HD-DVD sales figures (blue company with red product - this may not work)?
I'm sure Wooch or someone will chime in with that stuff. I haven't seen BluRay or HD-DVD at the Wal-Mart's I've been in.


Just my own observation in my own neck of the woods, but it certainly seems like the store shelves are about 75% Blu-ray, now. I'm still waiting for regular DVD prices to drop, but somehow that kind of effect is not yet trickling down.
It's about 50/50 in the few I checked out, though it wasn't that long ago HD-DVD was up roughly 75/25 or so. I suspect as BluRay releases more new release movies, shelving might reflect that. I'm sure a 50% price cut in the player will help year 2 sales as well.

Man, I just looked at some old threads we had way back. A lot of us really thought HD-DVD was going to win because of the price advantage and being first to market (me included). Isn't looking so good right now.

[recoveryone]

The real impact my still lay with Wal-mart/Sam's Club/Costco, If they solely sale Blu-Ray then you really can call it a knock out on Toshiba HD. Blockbuster can tilt the scales, but they are not the world leader they once were, when they killed off most of the mom and pop video stores.

[Woochifer]

I think Blockbuster to some degree is just following the market trends. They've already done the HD test marketing, and found that Blu-ray rentals accumulate about the same market share that they get with sales (roughly a 2-to-1 split). Blockbuster has never been a trend setter. They took their time before fully supporting the DVD format, it took a long time before they supported widescreen as well, and as far as I know, their stores never supported Betamax or Laserdisc. Obviously, they now see enough of an installed user base to expand on their support for the new HD formats, but going forward with only one format is very much in line with how they do business.

As kex said, at this point it's very much about the studio support. I read that so far this year, standalone HD-DVD players are outselling the Blu-ray players by ~60% to 40%. And with the PS3 sales nosediving in a hurry, it's not necessarily the hardware that has helped maintain Blu-ray's market advantage.

Even on the title selection, the number of titles that Blu-ray has in release is not that much greater than HD-DVD. But, what Blu-ray has is a huge advantage in getting the most recent big box office draws released on the same date as (or very close to) the DVD release, and that comes down to studio support. With Blockbuster so dependent on new releases for their revenue, going with Blu-ray was the more logical choice.

I would also see if there's anything else going on between the lines, like any revenue sharing deals that they might have struck with the studios, particularly those that are exclusive to Blu-ray. During the 90s, Blockbuster squeezed most of the mom & pop video stores out of business partly by entering into revenue sharing arrangements with the studios, where Blockbuster would obtain as many copies of certain new releases as their stores wanted in return for a percentage of the rental revenue. More recently, they've been promoting selected new releases that can only be rented at Blockbuster for a certain time. Would not surprise me at all if the Blu-ray studios dangled a few carrots to help convince Blockbuster to support the format exclusively (or if Blockbuster provided their own carrots to convince the Blu-ray studios to give them certain exclusivity or revenue sharing in return for going Blu-ray only).

[PeruvianSkies]

I prefer Blu-ray and that is without having a ton of experience with both. I like saying "Blu-ray" and it sounds like Sting-ray, which is also cool, except when it killed Steve Irwin. I hate saying H-Dee-Dee-Vee-Dee and for some people this doesn't really mean much, they just think it's still a DVD. In fact, to confuse matters more there was a time, and still some titles do this, where on the packaging specs it will say 'remastered in High-Definition' on regular DVD's, which confuse some people into thinking that it is now an HD title. I recall Columbia/TriStar doing this quite a bit.

[Rich-n-Texas]

"Revenue sharing" to me sounds like that when this all shakes out, us consumers are once again in for a reaming, so to speak.

I just joined Blockbusters Total Access deal; don't know how long they've been offering Blu-ray titles (blue's my favorite color, for those who care), but they total 270 if I'm looking at the 27 pages right. That's a lot IMO.

[nightflier]

Another factor that seems to be overlooked is that most consumers don't know what the advantages of hi-def are. Better picture quality is all that most people I talk to in the store can think of. Interestingly, better sound isn't all that important to 90% of the consumers out there, and so it really comes down to what people are getting for the extra expense. I'm not saying it's worthless, I'm just saying that most people who don't own a hi-def player have no idea what the format will offer. Likewise, people who do own them aren't bowled over and shouting the virtues of hi def from their rooftops (don't know why, but it's scaring people away from taking a side in the format war).

If I was a studio pushing a hi def format, I'd work something into the contract with Blockbuster to advertise the virtues of the new format. I think that would go a whole lot further than just offering the disks and asking people to buy into something new they hardly understand. Maybe giving Blockbuster a slew of players and screens showing pre-edited demos of all the features during scenes of the latest block buster flick? If that's too expensive to implement, how about large color displays showing the differences and new features in easy to understand charts? Remember those life-size Luke Skywalker cutouts that we used to take pictures with at the entrances of video rental stores? Now picture The Fantastic 4 holding up TV screens showing off the many benefits of the new format.

On that note, I think that Toshiba is doing a better job of marketing its format in places like BB, CC, Walmart, etc. I don't know why, but it just seems like Toshiba is trying a bit harder and this may be why the individual player sales are higher. Maybe it's just SoCal, but I see more Toshiba HD-DVD ads than Sony Blu-ray ones. That said, both companies could do more and to me it seems like it's a half-hearted effort all around, almost as if the companies themselves are not entirely behind their respective formats. Maybe they expect the virtues of the formats to carry the sales figures, but personally, I think they are under-estimating what average consumers know about them.

Just out of curiosity, are there any TV ads about either format yet? That would be the place I'd focus on, especially on HD channels. Consider this ad during the season finale of Lost: "Like seeing this in your cable company's HD format? Wait until you see it in Blu-ray - Get all the performance out of your new TV with the best it can do: Sony the best picture, period." (interchange HD-DVD/Toshiba, if you want).

[Woochifer]

- What is NetFlix' take on this? (What do you know, they are in the red camp). If they were to go the other way, it would definitely add fuel to this fire.

Actually, Netflix is neutral, as they already stock Blu-ray titles. Blockbuster's website also carries both HD formats, and will continue to do so.

http://www.netflix.com/Genre?sgid=2444&lnkctr=LhcGenre2444


Will Blockbuster (blue camp) be selling all their HD-DVD stock at bargain prices?

Nope. The posted article says that the 250 stores that were used to test market both formats will continue to stock HD-DVD titles, as will Blockbuster's website. All that Blockbuster's announcement means is that the 1,450 new stores (this represents about 1/4 of their stores) slated to carry HD discs will only support Blu-ray.

Fast forward to this time next year, and if HD-DVD's market share erodes further, then you might see those particular Blockbuster stores (and several other outlets) clearing out their HD-DVD inventory. This is no different than when video stores began selling off their Betamax inventory in the mid-80s. (Around that time, VHS had 3-to-1 market share advantage over Beta)


Any preliminary Walmart HD-DVD sales figures (blue company with red product - this may not work)?

That info's probably more tightly guarded than the CIA. WalMart does not participate in any of the retail sales tracking services like Nielson Videoscan, and neither does Target. Most of the other major retailers do participate, and bits and pieces of that information's widely available.


Just my own observation in my own neck of the woods, but it certainly seems like the store shelves are about 75% Blu-ray, now. I'm still waiting for regular DVD prices to drop, but somehow that kind of effect is not yet trickling down.

Doubtful that regular DVD prices will push back any further than they already have, unless the format gets supplanted and stores discontinue carrying DVDs altogether. It's pretty much a stable mature market where the new releases command the higher price points, and older titles and/or older editions get marked down (stores like BB and Fry's have weekly sale prices as low as $5). If you're willing to wait a few months before buying a new DVD release, the prices do go down.

Since you're down in the OC, you might want to check out DVD Planet's retail store over in Huntington Beach sometime. Biggest selection you'll find anywhere, competitive prices, and a lot of interesting items make it onto their clearance shelf.


On that note, I think that Toshiba is doing a better job of marketing its format in places like BB, CC, Walmart, etc. I don't know why, but it just seems like Toshiba is trying a bit harder and this may be why the individual player sales are higher. Maybe it's just SoCal, but I see more Toshiba HD-DVD ads than Sony Blu-ray ones. That said, both companies could do more and to me it seems like it's a half-hearted effort all around, almost as if the companies themselves are not entirely behind their respective formats. Maybe they expect the virtues of the formats to carry the sales figures, but personally, I think they are under-estimating what average consumers know about them.

Actually, I think Toshiba finally wised up and started playing hardball. Until the past couple of months, Toshiba had been getting out maneuvered at every step. Best Buy and all those other retailers will gladly provide the prime floor space and display areas to any company willing to pony up. Toshiba's the lone player actively peddling HD-DVD, while Blu-ray has multiple manufacturers in its corner. The sheer quantity of Blu-ray player models on the market assures that Blu-ray will occupy a certain amount of shelf space. Toshiba has to be more aggressive to maintain visibility, and it seems that they've been going in that direction. Universal has been helping with an aggressive HD-DVD release schedule. In the end though, I don't think it will be enough to keep the format afloat. Blu-ray continues to command the most in-demand titles, and I don't think that will be lost on those consumers ready to buy in the next few months.

[Mr Peabody]

It's interesting that the cheaper player isn't winning. Does this say that the HD disc war will not be decided by "Average Joe"? Is Blu ray's movie selection that much better that some one would pay almost 4 times the price for the player? Maybe people just think Blu ray is the way to go because of sheer volume of support. Also, Toshiba has gained some respect with their DLP's but I believe they still have a entry level rep where companies like Panasonic and Sony carry more weight in the quality department. Although Sony is slipping there.

Some one mentioned sound quality, is either HD disc format going to give me any better sound over DVD with out upgrading my gear?

I haven't rented anything from Blockbuster in well over a year. I quit when they started doing those gimmick promotions with all the small print. I bought into one of those when they first started, the guy did not fully explain everything, once I got out of that I never went back. I just pick up a movie or two from Hollywood when I get time to watch. I really enjoyed Blockbuster actually, their employees seemed to be energetic and helpful, the selection was great. I don't kknow why they felt they had to start running deceptive promotions. I really digressed.... strike this last statement from the record.

Bayliff, wack his P P

[PeruvianSkies]

Another factor that seems to be overlooked is that most consumers don't know what the advantages of hi-def are. Better picture quality is all that most people I talk to in the store can think of. Interestingly, better sound isn't all that important to 90% of the consumers out there, and so it really comes down to what people are getting for the extra expense. I'm not saying it's worthless, I'm just saying that most people who don't own a hi-def player have no idea what the format will offer. Likewise, people who do own them aren't bowled over and shouting the virtues of hi def from their rooftops (don't know why, but it's scaring people away from taking a side in the format war).

If I was a studio pushing a hi def format, I'd work something into the contract with Blockbuster to advertise the virtues of the new format. I think that would go a whole lot further than just offering the disks and asking people to buy into something new they hardly understand. Maybe giving Blockbuster a slew of players and screens showing pre-edited demos of all the features during scenes of the latest block buster flick? If that's too expensive to implement, how about large color displays showing the differences and new features in easy to understand charts? Remember those life-size Luke Skywalker cutouts that we used to take pictures with at the entrances of video rental stores? Now picture The Fantastic 4 holding up TV screens showing off the many benefits of the new format.

On that note, I think that Toshiba is doing a better job of marketing its format in places like BB, CC, Walmart, etc. I don't know why, but it just seems like Toshiba is trying a bit harder and this may be why the individual player sales are higher. Maybe it's just SoCal, but I see more Toshiba HD-DVD ads than Sony Blu-ray ones. That said, both companies could do more and to me it seems like it's a half-hearted effort all around, almost as if the companies themselves are not entirely behind their respective formats. Maybe they expect the virtues of the formats to carry the sales figures, but personally, I think they are under-estimating what average consumers know about them.

Just out of curiosity, are there any TV ads about either format yet? That would be the place I'd focus on, especially on HD channels. Consider this ad during the season finale of Lost: "Like seeing this in your cable company's HD format? Wait until you see it in Blu-ray - Get all the performance out of your new TV with the best it can do: Sony the best picture, period." (interchange HD-DVD/Toshiba, if you want).

Thank you for bringing up a very interesting angle on things. I am often amazed at how people are mainly interested in the picture size, resolution, etc, but couldn't care less about the sound quality delivered. It's astonishing to me that people in general desire for a pristine picture with crappy sound. It makes no sense, as Larry the Cable Guy would say...it's like whiping before pooping.

[kexodusc]

Thank you for bringing up a very interesting angle on things. I am often amazed at how people are mainly interested in the picture size, resolution, etc, but couldn't care less about the sound quality delivered. It's astonishing to me that people in general desire for a pristine picture with crappy sound. It makes no sense, as Larry the Cable Guy would say...it's like whiping before pooping.
I'm not surprised that the sound quality isn't a major selling point. Quite honestly, the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and Lossless DVD-A or whatever isn't nearly as big as most of us here (present party included) would make it out to be. We have a way of, err...exaggerating the little things in the world of audio.

Considering the visual sense is primary on the vast majority of the population, such a noticeable improvement (especially on larger screens) in the video quality area is a natural to be the biggest selling feature.

Just for giggles - I wonder, if I walked into a room and heard a 5.1 sound track, I doubt I could tell right away if it was Dolby Digital, DTS, or something hi-rez without doing an A/B and spending a bit of time. I'd probably be an above average guesser, and I'm smart enough to focus on a few limitations of Dolby, DTS, etc, but there's some good sounding mixes out there that'd make it pretty tough. (hey, I might try this experiment soon).

I'm pretty sure on a 42" screen or larger I could spot HD pretty fast.

[recoveryone]

ditto Kex, and remember many are still just getting into surround sound. When it comes to running wires along baseboards, ceiling creses, in wall installations..etc many are just not up for it, and the wife/kids factor plays a role also. So if you can't hide/blend in the wires then you may lose the battle of having a 5.1 setup. Or go for the wireless (subpar at best) option.

For me its always been about the sound. That was why I used to like going to the theater (when I was a Kid) was for the sound experience. The feeling of being sucked into the movie. I can handle watching a average movie and enjoy it very much if the sound mix is done real good. And only watch a good film once if the sound mix is poorly done. When SW EP1 came out I flock to see it like everyone else. The story line was so so acting the same, but what caught me was the sound mix on the pod race. I could not wait to get my own copy and play that part over and over again and that was VHS in DPL and it only got better when it was release on DVD.

I tell people all the time, the sound is what really makes the movie, and not always the big explosion, but the small little things: a dog barking off camera and making you turn your head to see, or water dripping from behind and you thinking you may have a leak in your house.

[Woochifer]

It's interesting that the cheaper player isn't winning. Does this say that the HD disc war will not be decided by "Average Joe"?

The "average Joe" won't decide the format war between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. Rather, they will have the final say over whether either of those HD formats eventually supplants the DVD. IMO, that's the real format war (if it ever gets that far).


Is Blu ray's movie selection that much better that some one would pay almost 4 times the price for the player? Maybe people just think Blu ray is the way to go because of sheer volume of support.

It's not really the number of titles -- Blu-ray has only a slight advantage over HD-DVD in the # of titles in release -- so much as which titles are in release that IMO will help Blu-ray maintain its advantage. If you look at the top 20 grossing movies from 2006, 19 of them are out or coming out on Blu-ray, while only 12 of them are coming out on HD-DVD. Blu-ray doesn't have that many more titles available, but it has more of the titles that consumers want. The market is driven by new releases, and the only thing stopping Blu-ray from winning the format war outright is Universal's exclusive HD-DVD support. (And among the major studios, Universal had the weakest box office performance last year, which further erodes the potential customer base for HD-DVD) The instant that Universal goes neutral (i.e., starts releasing titles in both formats), it's over.


Some one mentioned sound quality, is either HD disc format going to give me any better sound over DVD with out upgrading my gear?

On Blu-ray, you can potentially get upgraded sound quality because most of the titles so far have been using the higher bitrate 640k version of Dolby Digital (which doesn't have the aggressive high frequency channel joining that's used in the lower bitrate 448k and 384k tracks found on DVDs). All DD decoders are capable of decoding the 640k bitstream, but certain receiver models (including at least one recent Denon model) have had trouble reading the signal. In addition, the uncompressed PCM soundtracks can get output through the multichannel analog outputs.

With HD-DVD, I believe that all of the standalone players include built-in audio decoders that can decode the Dolby Digital Plus (basically the same audio resolution as the 640k DD signal, but adds support for discrete 6.1 and 7.1 output), and the lossless Dolby TrueHD tracks (same resolution as uncompressed PCM) and pass them through the multichannel analog outputs.

On both formats, the DTS-HD tracks will get downsampled to the 1.5k "core" DTS bitstream if a DTS-HD decoder isn't present. Not as high a resolution as lossless PCM, Dolby TrueHD, or DTS-HD, but certainly a higher resolution than the 754k half-bitrate DTS tracks typically used on DVDs.


I'm not surprised that the sound quality isn't a major selling point. Quite honestly, the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and Lossless DVD-A or whatever isn't nearly as big as most of us here (present party included) would make it out to be. We have a way of, err...exaggerating the little things in the world of audio.

Considering the visual sense is primary on the vast majority of the population, such a noticeable improvement (especially on larger screens) in the video quality area is a natural to be the biggest selling feature.

Just for giggles - I wonder, if I walked into a room and heard a 5.1 sound track, I doubt I could tell right away if it was Dolby Digital, DTS, or something hi-rez without doing an A/B and spending a bit of time. I'd probably be an above average guesser, and I'm smart enough to focus on a few limitations of Dolby, DTS, etc, but there's some good sounding mixes out there that'd make it pretty tough. (hey, I might try this experiment soon).

I'm pretty sure on a 42" screen or larger I could spot HD pretty fast.

Blu-ray has definitely been pushing the uncompressed PCM angle, though they haven't been telling the public that a lot of these PCM soundtracks are still downsampled from higher resolution masters (e.g., all of Sony's releases are 16-bit, while Fox has been going with 24-bit soundtracks; and so far none of the Blu-ray PCM tracks have used the 96 kHz sampling rate).

You're right in that the perceived sound quality improvements due to resolution can get quite exaggerated. I think that DD is easier to differentiate because of how the channel joining affects the surround imaging, but that's not going to be as easy to pick out in a dealer demo room that might have a lot of background noise, no calibration, and improperly aligned speakers.

OTOH, going from 480p to 1080p on the video side is very easy to pick out, and easy to demonstrate even in a warehouse-like environment like Best Buy or Costco. Anybody passing by with a shopping cart can see how good a movie looks in HD. Demonstrating the merits of higher audio resolution takes a lot more effort, and is not readily discernable through casual listening in a less-than-optimal room.


I tell people all the time, the sound is what really makes the movie, and not always the big explosion, but the small little things: a dog barking off camera and making you turn your head to see, or water dripping from behind and you thinking you may have a leak in your house.

You're so right about that. Those subtleties that you cite are often underappreciated, but they add so much to the immersive effect that a movie can provide. Master and Commander is very frequently cited as a reference quality soundtrack, and while the explosions in the battle scenes are great demonstration pieces, to me the best aspect of that soundtrack is with how it conveys a sense of space. When the scene takes place under the deck, the sound conveys the tightness of that space, and on above deck, you can sense the spaciousness. Very impressive all the way around.

[pixelthis]

Blu-ray caters to collectors, hddvd caters to renters, simple as that.
And PSP3 is actually canabalizing player sales in blu-ray, most will buy a psp just
because they are cheaper than a player( but the new 600 player will change this)
I hope blu wins, because its the more advanced format, and if we must have a hd disc, lets go with the more advanced.
AND heres another thing, with all of this great sound how about some concert discs?
Or music video collections?
Or decent classics that arent computer generated "blockbusters"
Anyway great toshiba lost, I hate em, everything I had tosh either broke, malfunctioned
or underperformed or was poorly designed:16:

[nightflier]

Blu-ray caters to collectors, hddvd caters to renters, simple as that.[/QUOTE]

How do you figure that?


I hope blu wins, because its the more advanced format, and if we must have a hd disc, lets go with the more advanced.

Well, not if they continue to downsample the sound (according to Wooch). I've also read that HD-DVD has an edge on sound quality.


...AND heres another thing, with all of this great sound how about some concert discs? Or music video collections?

I think here again, HD-DVD has greater potential because of the Universal alliance and their desperation to compete. Sony has a good catalog too, but I think (and this is just speculation) that they will also be late to the party with music and concert disks.


Anyway great toshiba lost, I hate em, everything I had tosh either broke, malfunctioned or underperformed or was poorly designed:16:

Whoa, there. I've had the opposite experience. I think this is ultimately a matter of product lines and models (probably affected by a specific part supplier), rather than systemic in a company.

I think the best resolution is not a defeat of one side or the other, but rather some kind of truce. Consumers would fare much better if the formats worked things out. What if Universal or Microsoft refused to throw in the towel and doggedly refused to offer Blu-Ray solutions, for example? This would ultimately hurt the consumers more than anyone else.

[musicman1999]

I don't think there can be a truce.I think that at somepoint Universal will decide to start putting out films in both formats and then it will be over.If all films are available in one format then there is no need for the other format.

bill

[Woochifer]

Blu-ray caters to collectors, hddvd caters to renters, simple as that.

Not at all true. Blu-ray's releases comprise more recent box office hits, and those tend to have much greater appeal to renters than the library releases that typify more of HD-DVD's output. If HD-DVD "caters to renters," then why would Blockbuster support a format that "caters to collectors"? And why would the 70% market share for Blockbuster's Blu-ray rentals be nearly identical to the 67% market share that Blu-ray sales have claimed so far this year?


Well, not if they continue to downsample the sound (according to Wooch). I've also read that HD-DVD has an edge on sound quality.

Can't really generalize since the choice in the lossless sound format is a title-by-title choice (if the title even includes a lossless track in the first place). Can't compare the Warner titles because a lot of their early Blu-ray titles did not include lossless tracks, while the HD-DVD equivalents did.

The Blu-ray titles from Fox and Disney thus far have primarily used a 48/24 PCM resolution, which is identical to the resolution used with most HD-DVD lossless tracks (using either TrueHD or DTS-HD). Only those few HD-DVD titles that use Dolby TrueHD at 96/24 resolution can claim higher resolution. So far, Sony has stuck with 48/16 resolution. Thus far, more Blu-ray titles have gone with uncompressed PCM because the format's larger disc capacity allows for it and most Blu-ray players don't yet decode TrueHD or DTS-HD.

The latest firmware updates though with most Blu-ray players now allow for a TrueHD or DTS-HD signal to get transcoded to PCM, which theoretically at least, maintains the full resolution of the original signal. The only reason really to go with TrueHD or DTS-HD is to save on disc space and/or accommodate a higher resolution than the disc space would otherwise allow with an uncompressed PCM track.


I think here again, HD-DVD has greater potential because of the Universal alliance and their desperation to compete. Sony has a good catalog too, but I think (and this is just speculation) that they will also be late to the party with music and concert disks.

Strange as it may seem, Universal's music division is actually a member of the Blu-ray Association. I haven't checked on whether they have actually released any titles, but this seems like a rather bizarre corporate disconnect within Universal. I saw the Universal Music Group logo pop up while watching a Blu-ray demo reel, and I had to double-check this because it otherwise made no sense when I saw it.

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=51

[drseid]

Blu-ray caters to collectors, hddvd caters to renters, simple as that.
And PSP3 is actually canabalizing player sales in blu-ray, most will buy a psp just
because they are cheaper than a player( but the new 600 player will change this)
I hope blu wins, because its the more advanced format, and if we must have a hd disc, lets go with the more advanced.

Oh, I don't know about this at all....

HD DVD has *a lot* more of the older classic movies that should appeal to collectors like myself. Casablanca, for one... I have found so far Blu-ray has focused on many of the present day action oriented films that are of very little interest to me and many other collectors (not to imply that collectors all collect as I do). I do think that while to me, at least, the quality of the Blu-ray releases is nowhere *near* as good as HD DVD, Wooch's point about new releases driving rentals, etc. is well taken and would indeed explain Blockbuster's recent move to major Blu-ray support. You could say that HD DVD is appealing to collectors, but Blu-ray is looking at the new release blockbuster rental market, and that is where a lot of the money is to be made.

I prefer the HD DVD strategy as a classic film collector, but I think the Blu-ray new release "blockbusters" strategy is working pretty well.

---Dave

[kexodusc]

As long as companies want to make money, they'll sell classic movies. Think it's just a matter of time until you find a lot of your favorite old films on BluRay, and probably more on HD-DVD if they stick around long enough.

[Mr Peabody]

Let me say I am not a huge classic movie collector but I am the type of person who actually paid more money for the B&W version of the Cristmas Carol, opposed to the cheaper colorized version. This is on VHS. On the other hand, I don't see why anyone would rush to buy old movies on a HD format. If my VHS version of the Cristmas Carol breaks or gets noisy, I may replace it some day but I have to wonder how much better B&W could look in HD. I don't even want to buy DVD's that aren't 5.1 although I do have some because I didn't have the movie or it was a great price. I know I'm a minority but I just refuse to duplicate movies when a new format comes out. I really didn't buy many movies until DVD came along. Actually, if I buy movies at all it has to have an entertainment value that will allow me to be able to watch again in the future. This tends to be the action/Sci-Fi type for me. I guess that puts me in the BR camp.

I believe if Blockbuster starts renting HD movies it will give the HD players a surge. I remember when DVD first came out, first you had one row, then several shelves in the row, then DVD and same title VHS side by side, then VHS disappearing. Movie rentals in my opinion is the hurdle and after getting over that, they're off! If my local Blockbuster starts renting BR discs I really feel me being drawn by the s300. If I view movies I want to purchase I will probably just start a list and wait to buy on one of the HD formats.

What would keep things whirling as Blockbuster decided to do BR and Hollywood or some other large chain decided to do HD-DVD. What if HD-DVD campt discounted HD movies to the rental chain, maybe as an exclusive, to make it worth their while to jump in.

[Woochifer]

Let me say I am not a huge classic movie collector but I am the type of person who actually paid more money for the B&W version of the Cristmas Carol, opposed to the cheaper colorized version. This is on VHS. On the other hand, I don't see why anyone would rush to buy old movies on a HD format. If my VHS version of the Cristmas Carol breaks or gets noisy, I may replace it some day but I have to wonder how much better B&W could look in HD. I don't even want to buy DVD's that aren't 5.1 although I do have some because I didn't have the movie or it was a great price. I know I'm a minority but I just refuse to duplicate movies when a new format comes out. I really didn't buy many movies until DVD came along. Actually, if I buy movies at all it has to have an entertainment value that will allow me to be able to watch again in the future. This tends to be the action/Sci-Fi type for me. I guess that puts me in the BR camp.

I don't think you're in the minority on this point. The issue of double dipping IMO is yet another reason I think Blu-ray will ultimately prevail. The biggest selling Blu-ray and HD-DVD titles are concentrated in concurrent and recent releases. Even though these new formats represent a big leap in resolution, this indicates that consumers would generally rather use their budget on titles that they don't already own on DVD.

HD-DVD cannot win a format war by simply letting Universal unload its library titles faster than any of the Blu-ray studios. It might prop up HD-DVD for the short-term, but it won't sustain the format so long as the format maintains fewer exclusives. The new release market, using box office performance as an indicator, will remain dominated by Blu-ray for the foreseeable future. Universal might have a breakout year and create a formidable release slate for HD-DVD, but that might not be enough if Sony, Fox, or Disney keep pace.


What would keep things whirling as Blockbuster decided to do BR and Hollywood or some other large chain decided to do HD-DVD. What if HD-DVD campt discounted HD movies to the rental chain, maybe as an exclusive, to make it worth their while to jump in.

Maybe. But, it would be a really hard sell since that would mean cutting out the three studios (Fox, Sony, and Disney) that accounted for 50% of last year's box office take. Much easier to only do without Universal's release slate.

[bobsticks]

...this indicates that consumers would generally rather use their budget on titles that they don't already own on DVD.

I don't think that this point can be touched upon enough. My own experience with HD-DVD is that the limitations of the original source material is quite evident on some of my "old favorites". Neither Caddyshack nor Goodfellas offered enough of an improvement over the DVD versions to truly wet my appetite for explorations into the back catalogue.

Do I regret the decision to go HD-DVD? Nah, it was a buck-fifty add on to the X360 and newer titles like The Departed, Children of Men, and Batman Begins are solid, but I have to admit that if I were in the market for a dedicated player it would probably be Blu-Ray if only because it offers more of the new releases in which I'm interested.

I would be surprised if many X-Box owners and early adopters didn't feel the same way.

[drseid]

Let me say I am not a huge classic movie collector but I am the type of person who actually paid more money for the B&W version of the Cristmas Carol, opposed to the cheaper colorized version. This is on VHS. On the other hand, I don't see why anyone would rush to buy old movies on a HD format. If my VHS version of the Cristmas Carol breaks or gets noisy, I may replace it some day but I have to wonder how much better B&W could look in HD.


Classics can look *a lot* better is the answer. Take my previous example of Casablanca and look at the HD DVD version compared to the DVD version... Just no comparison IMO really. The Searchers is another good example... That said, soundwise I would tend to agree that it is dificult to improve much there.

In my case, the reason why I buy "old" movies in HD (or DVD for that matter) is I feel in many cases they are better than the new stuff that is coming out. Of course there are many exceptions and I will buy those new films just as readily as any of the classics that I tend to go for. I just find that a lot of the newer stuff never gets watched by me again, so I pay money for a disc that gathers dust... Again, just one person's choices here, but I think I represent a much greater percentage of film *collectors* than many think. New movies may indeed appeal to many other film purchasers, but I don't call many of those folks film "collectors" in the sense I am talking about as a general rule.

Film collectors are a small segment of the population of video purchasers and as such they (we) will not be the factor that determines which format comes out on top most likely... At the end of the day, a sale is a sale (or a rental is a rental) and if the new stuff draws the most sales/rentals, what classics collectors like myself do will most likely be irrelevant from a macro perspective. From a micro prespective, it could determine if the classics get released by either format, as it shows there is a demand for those titles by "X" amount of people willing to buy (and if "X" equates to enough sales for a decent profit, someone will release the given films in time).

---Dave

[Woochifer]

I don't think that this point can be touched upon enough. My own experience with HD-DVD is that the limitations of the original source material is quite evident on some of my "old favorites". Neither Caddyshack nor Goodfellas offered enough of an improvement over the DVD versions to truly wet my appetite for explorations into the back catalogue.

Do I regret the decision to go HD-DVD? Nah, it was a buck-fifty add on to the X360 and newer titles like The Departed, Children of Men, and Batman Begins are solid, but I have to admit that if I were in the market for a dedicated player it would probably be Blu-Ray if only because it offers more of the new releases in which I'm interested.

I would be surprised if many X-Box owners and early adopters didn't feel the same way.

At least the add-on drive is not a huge up front investment, and it's a tied to a device that has other useful functions. I look at HD-DVD in much the same way as anyone interested in SACD or DVD-A -- if there are certain titles that you absolutely must have in the higher resolution format, then by all means go for it. But, go into the transaction knowing that title selection and availability might not expand by much in the future.

Even if Universal goes neutral and Blu-ray wins the format war, I think that Warner, Paramount, and Universal will continue to issue HD-DVD titles for a little while, which would buy time for the Blu-ray player prices to tumble down to more attractive levels.


In my case, the reason why I buy "old" movies in HD (or DVD for that matter) is I feel in many cases they are better than the new stuff that is coming out. Of course there are many exceptions and I will buy those new films just as readily as any of the classics that I tend to go for. I just find that a lot of the newer stuff never gets watched by me again, so I pay money for a disc that gathers dust... Again, just one person's choices here, but I think I represent a much greater percentage of film *collectors* than many think. New movies may indeed appeal to many other film purchasers, but I don't call many of those folks film "collectors" in the sense I am talking about as a general rule.

Film collectors are a small segment of the population of video purchasers and as such they (we) will not be the factor that determines which format comes out on top most likely... At the end of the day, a sale is a sale (or a rental is a rental) and if the new stuff draws the most sales/rentals, what classics collectors like myself do will most likely be irrelevant from a macro perspective. From a micro prespective, it could determine if the classics get released by either format, as it shows there is a demand for those titles by "X" amount of people willing to buy (and if "X" equates to enough sales for a decent profit, someone will release the given films in time).

You're touching on a fundamental market question that gets at the more problematic issue that Blu-ray will run into even if it wins the format war with HD-DVD -- is the market for HD resolution big enough to supplant the now-entrenched DVD format?

When the DVD came out, it provided multiple upgrades over VHS aside from the improvement in video resolution. The DVD offered up 5.1 audio, anamorphic widescreen, random access search, integration with PC drives, interactive capabilities, a compact form factor, and supplemental features that were previously only available on Laserdisc. Anyone with a regular TV could benefit from the many improvements that the DVD provided over VHS.

With HD-DVD and Blu-ray, the difference primarily comes down to the picture resolution (and to a lesser degree, the audio resolution), and here you're still talking about a market in which less than half of households own a HDTV. Without the HDTV, there's no immediate incentive to upgrade (unless you own a HDMI receiver and want lossless audio).

Even before these HD formats came to market, some analysts speculated that the DVD was already "good enough" for the majority of consumers. Obviously this will change once HDTV ownership increases. But, I don't see HD-DVD and Blu-ray creating a mad rush of people looking to replace their DVD libraries. Consumers might replace selected favorites, but this won't be like the DVD format, which fundamentally changed the home video market by shifting consumers more towards purchasing rather than renting movies. The DVD greatly expanded the number of video collectors. But, if someone has already accumulated hundreds or thousands of DVDs, I doubt that even a majority of those titles will get upgraded.

[Mr Peabody]

Dave, I definitely agree that the classic movies sure offer more substance. Now that AMC really don't play much in the way of classics anymore, I may be forced to pick up more on disc. We still have TMC but I really don't watch that much TV. If I am going to drive 5 channels plus a sub, I want a movie that will fire them up. It's just two different types of viewing. If I watch an old movie, I usually just play it through the TV speakers.

Some day down the road when NTSC gets turned off and people have to go HD, I don't see the point of a DVD player anymore as the HD players are backward compatible. And then, why continue with the DVD standard discs? Of course, that wasn't the scenario with SACD/DVD-A, was it. Man, I hate it when I come up with a counterpoint to my own point. Ah, but no one was turning off CD. DVD users will at least have to have Progressive scan and component or HDMI, or some way to down scale. This could all be a long time down the road though as a NTSC tube TV can sustain some one for a lot of years. It just depends on how consumers will deal with the big turn off.

[PeruvianSkies]

Deserve to be discovered by new generations and it's a crime when they show poor prints, or cut versions of classic films, especially when they show the P&S versions....arrggg....who can watch it like that and really love it? Not me.

[Woochifer]

Dave, I definitely agree that the classic movies sure offer more substance. Now that AMC really don't play much in the way of classics anymore, I may be forced to pick up more on disc. We still have TMC but I really don't watch that much TV. If I am going to drive 5 channels plus a sub, I want a movie that will fire them up. It's just two different types of viewing. If I watch an old movie, I usually just play it through the TV speakers.

Ditto for Bravo (at least in the U.S.). What was once a place to catch interesting movies across several genres is now nothing more than a depository for designer reality shows.

The viewing on those channels, especially TMC, might get more interesting once they go HD. Several of the heavyweight expanded cable/satellite channels like A&E, FX, MTV, and CNN are going HD before the end of the year, and it's only a matter of time before the majority of the others add HD broadcasts.


Some day down the road when NTSC gets turned off and people have to go HD, I don't see the point of a DVD player anymore as the HD players are backward compatible. And then, why continue with the DVD standard discs? Of course, that wasn't the scenario with SACD/DVD-A, was it. Man, I hate it when I come up with a counterpoint to my own point. Ah, but no one was turning off CD. DVD users will at least have to have Progressive scan and component or HDMI, or some way to down scale. This could all be a long time down the road though as a NTSC tube TV can sustain some one for a lot of years. It just depends on how consumers will deal with the big turn off.

Another angle to this will be the degree to which retailers tolerate going with multiple formats. Historically, retailers have hated carrying multiple versions for music and video releases. If Blu-ray or HD-DVD eventually builds up enough market share, then the retailers very well could accelerate the DVD format's demise by phasing the format out. This would be no different than when major retailers started clearing out their VHS inventory, even before the DVD had passed VHS in market share (though judging by the DVD's sales growth, it had by then become obvious that the DVD was well on its way to pushing VHS out the door). Or when music stores started dropping vinyl in order to expand their CD sections.

However, if Blu-ray or HD-DVD sales momentum stalls or does not otherwise meet projections, then you might see retailers dial back on the shelf space that they allocate to the HD formats. This would be a similar situation to SACD and DVD-A, which came to market and got some major retailers on board, but the shelf space for those formats never expanded, and those sections have either languished or gotten phased out altogether.

Also the pending phaseout is simply a phase out of analog broadcast signals. Cable companies can continue to retransmit the contents over their analog NTSC cable systems, and that alone will keep the millions of older TVs from instantly turning into oversized doorstops. The mandate is not for HD resolution, but more for the implementation of digital TV broadcasts. A station can cutoff its analog broadcasts, and still keep its OTA digital broadcasts entirely at non-HD resolution.

[Mr Peabody]

When they put old B&W movies on HD do they keep them B&W? Or, do they colorize them thinking they are making a big improvement?

[Woochifer]

When they put old B&W movies on HD do they keep them B&W? Or, do they colorize them thinking they are making a big improvement?

In all fairness, I don't recall that TMC ever broadcast colorized movies (although Turner stablemate TBS very often showed the colorized versions), and I don't think that the colorizing process gets done at HD resolution anyway.

[PeruvianSkies]

When they put old B&W movies on HD do they keep them B&W? Or, do they colorize them thinking they are making a big improvement? When the colorize a film I just watch it on my 42" B&W Plasma TV set. lol.

[drseid]

When they put old B&W movies on HD do they keep them B&W? Or, do they colorize them thinking they are making a big improvement?

Nope, B&W stays B&W.

---Dave

[pixelthis]

In the old days before video games when men fought wars to stay occupied lines of soldiers would meet on an open field and basically "push" against one another.
This is where the phrase "holding the line" came from.
Nobody wants toshiba to succeed and their "line" is failing, the blockbuster announcement
is just a few more of tosh's soldiers getting trampled.
Computer types want the storage, peeps selling old reruns of flipper or happy days want to keep the no of discs to a minimum.
And collectors and renters are a different market from each other, one collects classics, concerts, tv episodes and the renters rent whatever cannon fodder comes out on tuesday.
Anyway I haave seen this before, and you'll be surprized:yikes: at how fast hd CRASHES
AND BURNS.
And the marketing wonks at toshiba know this, they are just trying to figure out how to exit
with the maximum number of fingers and toes
NO way this third rate electronics company had the cahones to run up against sony

[drseid]

Nobody wants toshiba to succeed and their "line" is failing, the blockbuster announcement
is just a few more of tosh's soldiers getting trampled.
Computer types want the storage, peeps selling old reruns of flipper or happy days want to keep the no of discs to a minimum.
And collectors and renters are a different market from each other, one collects classics, concerts, tv episodes and the renters rent whatever cannon fodder comes out on tuesday.
Anyway I haave seen this before, and you'll be surprized:yikes: at how fast hd CRASHES
AND BURNS.

NO way this third rate electronics company had the cahones to run up against sony

Let me be one that goes on record that *I* want Toshiba to succeed...

As for Toshiba going up against Sony... Last time I checked DVD did pretty good. How quickly people forget. :-)

---Dave

[Mr Peabody]

Dave; I notice you have both HD & Blu ray disc players, care to share which you prefer and why? Maybe your hands on experience of the pros & cons of each. Thanks

[drseid]

Dave; I notice you have both HD & Blu ray disc players, care to share which you prefer and why? Maybe your hands on experience of the pros & cons of each. Thanks

I prefer HD DVD, but I would say it is more a function of the player and releases rather than HD DVD being the "superior" format.

I guess my HD DVD loyalty started when Toshiba came out with the HD-A1s at a very reasonable entry price for the format, and then their relentless customer support afterwards through automatic software updates (downloadable direct to the player with discs sent without having to ask too) coupled with a strong slate of films that appealed to collectors like myself.

In the case of my Sony Blu-ray player, I payed twice as much and it still does not perform as well as my Toshiba. Sony also has truly had *awful* customer support using foreign call centers where you are placed on hold for 20 minutes plus (one call I had this happen twice), and the rep cannot even understand you (and vice-versa). Anytime a software update is available Sony never lets the customer know, and you have to request a disc instead of it being sent to you automatically like Toshiba (plus there is no download direct to the player like the A1 as there is no internet connection). I have found that the S-1 is also a very poor upsampling DVD player (whereas the A1 is steller in this regard --although both have trouble reading some DVDs). Software released for Blu-ray has been of some interest recently to me, but nowhere near that of the HD DVD releases. The main "pro" here (and it is a BIG one) is Blu-ray has much better studio support.

All of the above said, both players (and formats) were rushed to market and are just now really hitting their stride. I could easily live with either format in the end as both produce equally good pictures when they are on their respective games. I have found on the audio side HD DVD has had superior releases, but that will change in time as Blu-ray also starts to take advantage of the Dolby TrueHD soundtracks (my S-1 now can play Dolby TrueHD through the latest upgrade).

The bottom line is it comes down to customer service and strategy in order to get my support. HD DVD was thinking of early adopters with HD DVD... offering superior after-the-sale support, and a release slate that catered to collectors at reasonable prices. Blu-ray came out of the gate with inferior quality releases (again based on my personal film preferences) and a sky high greedy price skimming strategy. For me supporting HD DVD was an easy decision early on.

Now that Blu-ray has had a chance to work out the kinks, it is pretty much on par with HD DVD and the release slate is definitely branching out with Warner going dual format a while back. So in the end, I still am routing for HD DVD for its initial support and lower prices, but I would actually be happy with both formats surviving in the end...

---Dave

[Mr Peabody]

The bottomline for me will be availability of movies I'd like to watch but the customer service you got was very cool from Toshiba. That really gives me pause for thought. I am one to give major points for customer service.

I bought a Sony ns975, I think was the model, and returned it. It developed issues. I learned that the unit had a problem with the first ones that hit. But I had to find that out on the internet, Sony nor the dealers would fess up. If they had been honest about it and offered to send it back for the fix, I would have kept it. I liked the machine and really couldn't find anything I liked better. That coupled with a problem I had with my Sony HD tube TV has me a bit put off with their products. The only thing that keeps them going is their exaggerated rep and when you do get a good Sony, it's a darn good one.

[pixelthis]

Let me be one that goes on record that *I* want Toshiba to succeed...

As for Toshiba going up against Sony... Last time I checked DVD did pretty good. How quickly people forget. :-)

---Dave
YEAH, and sony was a major supporter (how quickly they forget)
These arent really two "formats", both have the same type "software", its the hardware
that is different, one lower capacity than another, which is bad for toshiba, since
even the companies supporting them (all couple of them) are authoring their stuff in a format that will be easily duped to blu-ray, which means that the rats will be able to jump ship as soon as the deck chairs start floating.
AND I dont really have anything against toshiba, even tho EVERYTHING I ever bought from them either broke or was mediocre.
A friend recently got a tosh dvd player and it looked a awfully lot like a OPPO player.
Maybe they gave up on trying to build one

[drseid]

The bottomline for me will be availability of movies I'd like to watch but the customer service you got was very cool from Toshiba. That really gives me pause for thought. I am one to give major points for customer service.

I bought a Sony ns975, I think was the model, and returned it. It developed issues. I learned that the unit had a problem with the first ones that hit. But I had to find that out on the internet, Sony nor the dealers would fess up. If they had been honest about it and offered to send it back for the fix, I would have kept it. I liked the machine and really couldn't find anything I liked better. That coupled with a problem I had with my Sony HD tube TV has me a bit put off with their products. The only thing that keeps them going is their exaggerated rep and when you do get a good Sony, it's a darn good one.

Agreed. Sony certanly can make good products when they want to, and I have bought my share (I just added a new Bravia 40V2500 LCD for the bedroom only a week ago). When they are "on" they can make great stuff... but their reliabilty is not as good as it used to be and when things require customer support forget about it. That is my main gripe.

---Dave

[drseid]

YEAH, and sony was a major supporter (how quickly they forget)
These arent really two "formats", both have the same type "software", its the hardware
that is different, one lower capacity than another, which is bad for toshiba, since
even the companies supporting them (all couple of them) are authoring their stuff in a format that will be easily duped to blu-ray, which means that the rats will be able to jump ship as soon as the deck chairs start floating.
AND I dont really have anything against toshiba, even tho EVERYTHING I ever bought from them either broke or was mediocre.
A friend recently got a tosh dvd player and it looked a awfully lot like a OPPO player.
Maybe they gave up on trying to build one

Toshiba has plenty of major companies supporting HD DVD, but they don't have Sony (of course), Disney and Fox. Blu-ray is missing Universal. The rest of the major studios are format neutral, supporting both. Still no question Blu-ray has the upper hand here.

As for Toshiba quality, their HD-A1 is built like a tank (but like my Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray player was glitchy at release), and I had great success with some of Toshiba's earlier stuff like their initial DVD models and the like. I have not tried any of their DVD players in the past 4-5 years as I was using a trusty Denon DVD-1600 that worked like a charm until HD DVD and Blu-ray got me hooked... If the new Toshibas resemble (and play like) an Oppo, that would not really be a bad thing as the Oppo is a great DVD player. The larger Toshiba TVs have pretty much been completely outsourced to the best of my knowledge, and I believe the quality is not anywhere near what it once was unfortunately. I will say that whatever I think (positive or negative) about their electronics quality, their customer suport has been second to none in my experience.

---Dave

[Mr Peabody]

Let me say one thing about customer service and then I will try to stop as to not hijack. Our cable company, Charter, outsourced all their phone assistance to off shore quasi English speaking CSR's. This became their #1 complaint. A recent poll showed Charter's customer service and peoples opinion of them were record breaking low. I prefer to spend my money with companies that will support people in my country with jobs, however, Charter switched back to English speaking CSR's, BUT, totally missed the point. The English assistors they are using now are less informed than the quasi-English speaking ones. It literally took me 6 phone calls in a 24 hour period just to change my programming service. It sounded like they took high school kids off the beach and turned them loose on the phone with no training. CEO's get paid more money in one year than most will see in a life time yet they can't figure out it is more cost effective to train your assistors to limit the incoming phone calls and keep your customers happy and using your product. I switched to a local internet provider for just this reason. What amazes me is how the public will still put up with all of this to believe they are saving a buck. It's this contentment with being bullied and letting the carrot dangling in front of us that has us at the mercy of mass merchants and large corporations who care less what we think because they can do whatever they want and count on people still falling at their feet. Gone are the Mom & Pop shops who cared because we were their livelihood.

Uuh, ok, I'm better now. I'll just go get a drink of water.

[Mr Peabody]

Dave, have you compared the analog out to the digital out sound of either HD player? It would be very convenient vor me to use the digital out but I'd have to go through some pains to get to the back and connect the analog outs. But if the newer HD sound is noticeably better, it could be worth the pain.

I really am looking hard at either the Sony s300 or Panasonic dmp bd10a. I believe with the Panny there is a potential of 10 free movies. 5 from them and 5 from a general Blu ray promo. I have to research how that works. Anyone else interested the info is on www.bluray.com

[nightflier]

Well, I don't particularly go to BB very often, but this weekend I just happened to be at two different stores. At both, the Blu-Ray section was 3/4 of the isle and the HD-DVD was 1/4. I also talked to a few customers who happened to wander by. Ironically they where all HD-DVD owners, two of them owned the Xbox player. One customer complained that there were no good HD-DVD titles, but the others used their HD-DVD players more as a regular DVD player, and so where not that all that concerned about the situation.

I also stopped by Blockbuster to return a rental (regular DVD) and while I was at the counter I asked the rep why they had decided to back Blu-Ray exclusively. He said that it was strictly a question of economics, as he put it. HD-DVD just didn't have the movies people wanted to rent, by which he meant the new releases and action flicks.


I really am looking hard at either the Sony s300 or Panasonic dmp bd10a. I believe with the Panny there is a potential of 10 free movies. 5 from them and 5 from a general Blu ray promo. I have to research how that works. Anyone else interested the info is on www.bluray.com

While I haven't made up my mind that Blu-Ray has won yet, it certainly looks dire for the HD-DVD camp. I'm kind of partial to Panasonic, but the sound quality would have to be worth it for me (I also agree that sound is important to enjoying movies). Anyhow, Mr. Peabody, where on the site does it say that there are free disks to be had? I can't find anything of the sort. If this offer is valid, that's a hell of a deal considering that 10 disks could easily run to be more than $300.

I also wonder how much that upcoming Denon Blu-Ray player will be and whether it will play SACDs.

[Mr Peabody]

I doubt if Denon will do SACD, they were in the DVD-A camp.

I wondered into BB today too. I wanted to see the Panasonic bd10a. They didn't have any, the guy said BB probably only has them available on the web. American or Ultimate didn't have them either. They will probably sell off the old bd10 before trying to bring in the new ones. BB did have a demo playing, if an actual side by side looks like that then the formats should take off but I have to wonder if there isn't a slant to one side when this thing was made. The SD side looked pretty bad in comparison. They were showing a split screen of scenes from movies, on the left SD, on the right BD. The announcer would mention to look at certain aspects of the scene. The BD scene from Chicken Little looked incredible.

I posted a thread about the free Blu ray discs but you can find the BDA offer on www.bluray.com, look under the news stories, click on read more, then some where after the story there is a link to the offer form. I did a Google search for the Panasonic deal they were talking about and found that the movies will be right in the box. You get what you get and everybody gets the same.

[Woochifer]

I doubt if Denon will do SACD, they were in the DVD-A camp.

Actually, Denon was one of the strongest proponents for universal players, and introduced the first players with DACs that could natively decode both SACD and DVD-A without having to build separate processor boards for each format or transcode the SACD's DSD bitstream into PCM first. They also had the iLink connections that allowed for their compatible receivers to natively decode both formats.

If you look at how their product lineups have gone for the past four years or so, Denon has consistently supported SACD alongside DVD-A, and gone to great lengths to ensure that both formats get decoded natively. Your DVD-1600 was the last Denon DVD player around the $500 price point that did not support SACD playback, and right now all of their DVD players except for the $170 DVD-1730 will play SACDs.

[Mr Peabody]

Cool, thanks for the correction. A universal player will probably hit one year and maybe Denon will be the one to do it but it looked like for now the HD movie players aren't doing SACD or DVD-A yet. BUT, I have not read the features of every player available.

[pixelthis]

TOSHIBA has exelent customer service...they need it
Tosh 32in, looked like a cartoon after six months, broke after eight.
Brother bought the next years model, broke after a year and a half, NOBODY would
touch it, finally a friend fixed it and it worked another six months.
Traded a perfectly good panny player because I had to have componet, after about eight
mos a slight banding problem showed up, got worse as time went along, and the dts
dropped out completely. Gave it away.
But toshi has its followers, usually peeps who have low expectations on performance.
The one of many reasons I havent jumped into the pool in hd discs yet is I am scared of trying another tosh product, and cant afford bluray.
If these guys developed the format I know I dont want it
On another note mr peabody I AM HOPING FOR SOME CONCERT AND VIDEO COLLECTIONS , these you can watch over and over, what are these guys waiting for?

[drseid]

Dave, have you compared the analog out to the digital out sound of either HD player? It would be very convenient vor me to use the digital out but I'd have to go through some pains to get to the back and connect the analog outs. But if the newer HD sound is noticeably better, it could be worth the pain.

I really am looking hard at either the Sony s300 or Panasonic dmp bd10a. I believe with the Panny there is a potential of 10 free movies. 5 from them and 5 from a general Blu ray promo. I have to research how that works. Anyone else interested the info is on www.bluray.com

Sorry for the belated response... Just got back from a vacation in Vegas...

I have only tried the analog outs on the Toshiba to test Dolby TrueHd versus the regular. I have found that there is a big difference on certain action films with the bass being much more controlled and seemingly lower. Certan subtle sounds can also be heard more clearly with its use... I would say it is worth using for DolbyTrueHD. Dolby Digital Plus I have found to be little different from regular DD or DTS and in those cases I tend just to use the digital outs.

On the Sony I have not invested in the cables to hook up the analog outs for 5.1, but now that the player supports DD TrueHD, I will do so. I would expect the Sony (including the S300) to perform equally well as my experience with the Toshiba in this regard. Both players have poor analog audio bass management options... I run all of my speakers full range, but those with sub sat systems or smaller speakers beware... Maybe Sony has improved the bass management for the S300?

---Dave

[drseid]

TOSHIBA has exelent customer service...they need it
Tosh 32in, looked like a cartoon after six months, broke after eight.
Brother bought the next years model, broke after a year and a half, NOBODY would
touch it, finally a friend fixed it and it worked another six months.
Traded a perfectly good panny player because I had to have componet, after about eight
mos a slight banding problem showed up, got worse as time went along, and the dts
dropped out completely. Gave it away.
But toshi has its followers, usually peeps who have low expectations on performance.
The one of many reasons I havent jumped into the pool in hd discs yet is I am scared of trying another tosh product, and cant afford bluray.
If these guys developed the format I know I dont want it
On another note mr peabody I AM HOPING FOR SOME CONCERT AND VIDEO COLLECTIONS , these you can watch over and over, what are these guys waiting for?
Certanly your perogative not to support anything Toshiba puts out and I respect your feelings... I have actually had the same negative experience, but with Sony TVs... I guess I never learn because I keep buying them anyway as the picture quality tends to be pretty good. I just now make sure that I get a good in-home extended warranty as I know I will use it *many* times.... ;-)

The video electronics brands I have had the best luck with are Panasonic and Denon. Both don't have places in my system anymore... go figure. Maybe if either ever release a HD DVD/Blu-ray combo player I would pounce on it.

---Dave

[pixelthis]

Certanly your perogative not to support anything Toshiba puts out and I respect your feelings... I have actually had the same negative experience, but with Sony TVs... I guess I never learn because I keep buying them anyway as the picture quality tends to be pretty good. I just now make sure that I get a good in-home extended warranty as I know I will use it *many* times.... ;-)

The video electronics brands I have had the best luck with are Panasonic and Denon. Both don't have places in my system anymore... go figure. Maybe if either ever release a HD DVD/Blu-ray combo player I would pounce on it.

---Dave
Yeah, panny makes reliable but somewhat utilitarian products, as for sony you cant beat the picture, never had A sony break on me (TV anyway) but right now I am going for pix size
Denon is great, had two, but they tend to roll off their highs
Had a top of the line denon once, 75w into two channels, 595( about 1800 in todays dollars) last piece of pure audiophile gear I had, even tho my current receiver has things like a phono stage, "pure audio" etc.
But with tosh the experience has been almost universally bad, when they screw something up they really aim for the bleachers.
One thing I noticed on this site is being called a "basher" or "negative" simply stating the facts.
Well, modern electronics are expensive, and you have to mail them off when they break,
mostly, and tosh doesnt even pass the minimum standard of reliable, at least to me, and I want people to know, is all.
For all of the features they put on modern devices the best by far is not having to unplug
and uninstall it and mail it off, just putting it in and enjoying it.
This is not hard to do and is the least you should expect

[Mr Peabody]

I haven't owned a lot of Toshiba but my luck with them has been good. I had problems with my Sony 32" tube HDTV and one of their DVD players. My Denon DVD player has been great but I understand it was built for them by Panasonic. My brother has a Denon HT receiver a few years old, I have heard several others and they don't seem to roll off the highs now.

[Mr Peabody]

Guess who rented 2 Blu-ray discs from Blockbuster this weekend? Anyone guess me? What can you do when it's the only game in town with what you want. They also have a deal where you can pay $9.95 per year and get your rentals for $2.99, opposed to $4.99, no credit card necessary. Also, if you rent.... 4 or 5? movies a month you get a rental free.

[pixelthis]

Guess who rented 2 Blu-ray discs from Blockbuster this weekend? Anyone guess me? What can you do when it's the only game in town with what you want. They also have a deal where you can pay $9.95 per year and get your rentals for $2.99, opposed to $4.99, no credit card necessary. Also, if you rent.... 4 or 5? movies a month you get a rental free.
I used to belong to their rewards club, save a ton.
And it looks like you picked right Mr P, Target has joined the blu-ray "club",
and this trickle of bad news will be a flood soon, its a cascade effect for a doomed format,
wont be long before its adios for HDDVD:1:

[drseid]

Not to comment on the choice being good or bad, but Target has not really joined the Blu-ray club, per se. I guess you could say they have joined the Blu-ray *player* club though... They have announced they will offer a Blu-ray player (and have no announcements pending for any HD DVD player to the best of my knowledge). They offer the software for both formats, however, and they have said they do not rule out offering HD DVD players in the future (but have no plans to do so currently).

---Dave

[pixelthis]

Not to comment on the choice being good or bad, but Target has not really joined the Blu-ray club, per se. I guess you could say they have joined the Blu-ray *player* club though... They have announced they will offer a Blu-ray player (and have no announcements pending for any HD DVD player to the best of my knowledge). They offer the software for both formats, however, and they have said they do not rule out offering HD DVD players in the future (but have no plans to do so currently).

---Dave
they are hedging their bets.
Software is a lot easier to get rid of from an orphan market. A savy bunch of
marketers (target has been called wallmart with class) is betting that Blu-ray wins.
This is signifigant, and more bad news for HDDVD:1:

[PeruvianSkies]

Not to comment on the choice being good or bad, but Target has not really joined the Blu-ray club, per se. I guess you could say they have joined the Blu-ray *player* club though... They have announced they will offer a Blu-ray player (and have no announcements pending for any HD DVD player to the best of my knowledge). They offer the software for both formats, however, and they have said they do not rule out offering HD DVD players in the future (but have no plans to do so currently).

---Dave

Can you buy an Xbox360 from Target? w/ HD-DVD upgrade?

[nightflier]

I realize the Target & Blockbuster news does not bode well for the HD-DVD camp. But if there is one thing I do know about this industry, it is that formats die slowly, and sometimes are revived against all expectations (just think of vinyl). There are also some factors to remember like fact that HD-DVD does have a few technical advantages (albeit not insurmountable ones), that neither Microsoft, Universal, nor Toshiba have thrown in the towel, that LG does have a player that supports both formats and it seems to be selling OK, and that there are thousands of people with HD-DVD players out there, even more if you count Xbox-based players. My guess is that HD-DVD will fade in the same way that DVD-A did.

But what is most troubling is that this format war has damaged both sides. Blu-Ray may find that it has won a Pyhrric victory not unlike SACD and will likely be relegated to a niche format too. Online HD downloads are becoming more & more common and will offer advantages over DVD that may suffice for most people. This is relevant, too: HD downloads will offer advantages even to the millions who have HD sets but not 1080p capabilities (like all those people with only Component inputs and not HDMI). I dare say that this format war may thus have negatively affected the growth of 1080p TVs and equipment, too.

The bottom line is that a format war such as this one has far more of a downside than people think. Everyone would have been much better off if both camps had merged the technologies before bringing them to market. One hopes that there is still the possibility, however small, of bringing both technologies together into one disk format. But to cheer on the victory of one side over the other could perhaps do more damage than good.

[pixelthis]

I realize the Target & Blockbuster news does not bode well for the HD-DVD camp. But if there is one thing I do know about this industry, it is that formats die slowly, and sometimes are revived against all expectations (just think of vinyl). There are also some factors to remember like fact that HD-DVD does have a few technical advantages (albeit not insurmountable ones), that neither Microsoft, Universal, nor Toshiba have thrown in the towel, that LG does have a player that supports both formats and it seems to be selling OK, and that there are thousands of people with HD-DVD players out there, even more if you count Xbox-based players. My guess is that HD-DVD will fade in the same way that DVD-A did.

But what is most troubling is that this format war has damaged both sides. Blu-Ray may find that it has won a Pyhrric victory not unlike SACD and will likely be relegated to a niche format too. Online HD downloads are becoming more & more common and will offer advantages over DVD that may suffice for most people. This is relevant, too: HD downloads will offer advantages even to the millions who have HD sets but not 1080p capabilities (like all those people with only Component inputs and not HDMI). I dare say that this format war may thus have negatively affected the growth of 1080p TVs and equipment, too.

The bottom line is that a format war such as this one has far more of a downside than people think. Everyone would have been much better off if both camps had merged the technologies before bringing them to market. One hopes that there is still the possibility, however small, of bringing both technologies together into one disk format. But to cheer on the victory of one side over the other could perhaps do more damage than good.


I bought my first VCR in the early eighties, it was a vhs.
Sure I preferred the sony, and the selection was about even with models from both camps,
but everybody I knew was buying vhs, and I liked the six hour record time also, and it wasnt a casual purchase, at 899$ it was roughly three grand in todays dollars, you couldnt buy something you couldnt rent tapes for.
Well, in a year Sony was GONE, you could only buy them in a few stores, adios.
A local rental store touting beta went outta business, wouldnt stop renting the tapes because they were "better".
I had lasedisc for years, after the advent of DVD It too was pretty much over in a year.
And vinyl is a special case, a niche product if ever there was one, kept alive by audiophiles
either living in denial or (like me) an attachment to their old discs.
The truth is that industry insiders have already discerned a "winner", and its blu-ray.
HDDVD will be pretty much gone in a year, guarentee it, especially if the only (one!) studio supporting it starts in with Blu-ray.
HDDVD, the edsel for the 21st century:thumbsup:

[drseid]

I bought my first VCR in the early eighties, it was a vhs.
Sure I preferred the sony, and the selection was about even with models from both camps,
but everybody I knew was buying vhs, and I liked the six hour record time also, and it wasnt a casual purchase, at 899$ it was roughly three grand in todays dollars, you couldnt buy something you couldnt rent tapes for.
Well, in a year Sony was GONE, you could only buy them in a few stores, adios.
A local rental store touting beta went outta business, wouldnt stop renting the tapes because they were "better".
I had lasedisc for years, after the advent of DVD It too was pretty much over in a year.
And vinyl is a special case, a niche product if ever there was one, kept alive by audiophiles
either living in denial or (like me) an attachment to their old discs.
The truth is that industry insiders have already discerned a "winner", and its blu-ray.
HDDVD will be pretty much gone in a year, guarentee it, especially if the only (one!) studio supporting it starts in with Blu-ray.
HDDVD, the edsel for the 21st century:thumbsup:

What do we get it HD DVD lasts more than a year and you fail on the gaurantee? ;-)

I am certainly not proclaiming HD DVD the winner or anything like it, but I am pretty confident it will be around much longer than a year... I guess we will see.

Also, keep in mind HD DVD has many studios that support it, I assume you are referring to the one *major* studio that supports it *exclusively*?

---Dave

[Groundbeef]

Can you buy an Xbox360 from Target? w/ HD-DVD upgrade?

Yes. Both are available from Target.

[PeruvianSkies]

Yes. Both are available from Target.

So if Target carries this at least you can still shop there (if you are a 1-stop shopper) and get either HD-DVD or Blu-ray discs and player(s). Although, this format seems more like a niche format, but let's face it...it's certainly getting more promotion than many of us expected...the fact that Walmart has a whole shelf area dedicated to High Definition discs blew me away when I first saw it. This type of exposure is certainly generating some sales, unlike things like SACD*, which went under the radar. This brings up a particular question that I am always asking myself...

What do people prefer...high end audio or high end video?

It would seem that the market certainly wants to attract people with video rather than audio and that is a sad thing. For example...

I have seen people with a huge 100" projector system in their house that cost thousands of dollars with a crappy all-in-one audio setup and peoples mouths drop and comment on how awesome so and so's home theater is....meanwhile, they wouldn't say the same thing if they saw my 30" HDTV flanked with nearly 10K worth of audio stuff.

*which by the way I was working at a music store when SACD's were first being introduced and I remember Sony sending us 1 copy of every single title they were releasing for SACD. They sent them to us to 'test' how it would do without any other type of promotion...not even a product endcap to display the merchandise. Needless to say, a few months went by and only a small handful of them sold. Got a memo from Sony shortly thereafter ordering us to destroy all of the SACD's....here is a somewhat paraphrased version of what ensued on the telephone....

ME: I can't destroy these!
Corporate: You must destroy them!
ME: Can I say that I destroyed them, but really just took them home?
Corporate: If you do, than you can just stay home permanently and not return here.
ME: Can't we at least TRY and sell them?
Corporate: We have a mandate from Sony telling us to destroy them, now just do it!
ME: What if I am crushing the SACD's and I happen to be in the parking lot and a few of them find their way into my car?
Corporate: Just destroy them.

There were many instances at that store where we were ordered to destroy product regardless of its condition. I never understood this. We were never allowed to take it home, but I'll never tell if I did or not!

[Mr Peabody]

The war may also rage longer if Warner goes ahead with the dual format discs. This project has been postponed, I think to the end of the year, but if the attitude prevails that Blu-ray won, it may not happen.

[Groundbeef]

What do people prefer...high end audio or high end video?

It would seem that the market certainly wants to attract people with video rather than audio and that is a sad thing. For example...

!

Its not really a question of what do they prefer, but rather what are they willing to spend big bucks on.

I for one spend the money on the Video (50" Pioneer Plasma) and spent moderate on the audio (Pioneer Receiver, and JBL speakers).

Frankly, I felt that I got a better deal with the higher end video, and am less concerned with the audio.

Part of the problem I think for consumers in audio shopping is the lack of distinction between Watts (Power) and the actual sound quality. How many times have you seen 1500 WATTS on the side of a "Box Surrond System". People are attracted to the large watts, and not so much on actual quality because for most of them more power equals better sound.

Plus, unless you are in a boutique (sp0 audio shop, it is VERY difficult to hear, let alone compare various components. In the big box shops, loud is king.

It is easier to compare say two 50" plasma TV's. Oh look, that one has a sharper picture...etc.

Shocking as it may seem, most regular consumers don't get all wrapped up around high end sound. Its just not as important to them as it is to the passionated audiophiles lurking around in here.

[nightflier]

Part of the problem I think for consumers in audio shopping is the lack of distinction between Watts (Power) and the actual sound quality. How many times have you seen 1500 WATTS on the side of a "Box Surrond System". People are attracted to the large watts, and not so much on actual quality because for most of them more power equals better sound.

I also think it's confusion, a lot like the different model numbers they label Intel & AMD CPUs with these days. Joe Average, shopping at CC and BB, doesn't understand the details of the specs on the box. And don't expect him to read the manual, either ("Manual? There was a Manual? I thought it was part of the packing..."). For him, it has to look good next to his TV and be able to play loud. Actually if it just looks good and reasonably expensive (e.g. with the word Bose/Sony/etc. on it), then that's really all that matters - hence the reason that the TV, representing visual acceptance, is so much more important.


Plus, unless you are in a boutique (sp0 audio shop, it is VERY difficult to hear, let alone compare various components. In the big box shops, loud is king.

There's a reason for that: companies (not to name names again, but Bose does seem to always float to the top of the septic tank), pay for placement in a store (yes, also at Walmart & Target). And you can be pretty certain they won't want their speakers sitting right next to Martin Logans, uh, I mean next to Harman Kardons, well, actually not even next to Sonys. And with Joe Average's favorite magazines and websites (Consumer Reports, Sound & Vision, C-Net, etc.) spouting off nonsense that these brands are just as good, how will Joe know any different?


It is easier to compare say two 50" plasma TV's. Oh look, that one has a sharper picture...etc.

Until someone adjusts contrast, brightness, etc. to make the expensive one look worse. ("Wow, look mabel, I can't tell the difference anymore, so let's buy the cheaper one...") TVs are items that really do benefit from critical reviewing, but how many of those reviews actually compare similarly priced and featured models?


Shocking as it may seem, most regular consumers don't get all wrapped up around high end sound. Its just not as important to them as it is to the passionated audiophiles lurking around in here.

Actually there is one test you can perform that will work for just about anyone who doesn't have decades of wax stuffed in his ears: listen at low volume. A good sound system does not require high volume. If you can a/b two setups for someone in the same room, most people will pick the higher-end system when listening at low volumes. It always amazes me how many people make a purchasing decision because something sounded so good at a loud volume in the store.

Now getting back to the topic, it may very well be that the HD format that can sound the best at low volumes, will be the one audiophiles will choose. Unfortunately the one that appears to look best in the store (at that could be either one) will be the one Joe Average buys. Therefore, Joe Average will not decide who wins this format war. And since there is still enough selection on both sides, this also will not sway Joe Average. What will sway him is cost, and there, HD-DVD has the edge. Until BR comes down into the same price range, it is still too soon to call a winner.

What is sad is that the winner in this format war is being called mostly based on which side is selling the most right now. For audiophiles, that barometer should be anathema to everything he believes.

[GMichael]

. What will sway him is cost, and there, HD-DVD has the edge. Until BR comes down into the same price range, it is still too soon to call a winner.

What is sad is that the winner in this format war is being called mostly based on which side is selling the most right now. For audiophiles, that barometer should be anathema to everything he believes.

But there are also those "I believe I'm better than Joe" Average people out there who equate a higher price with better quality. I submit Bose as my example as well.

[Groundbeef]

But there are also those "I believe I'm better than Joe" Average people out there who equate a higher price with better quality. I submit Bose as my example as well.

I was "reading" my Playboy Magazine a few months back, and they had a section on High-End Audio equipment. The name totally escapes me, but the price did not. The speakers for a pair were about $250,000. Now, that doesn't equate to quality. That equates to " I have a bigger weiner than you, can't you see my $250,000 speakers".

I think that there are extremes on both ends of the market. Unless that speaker does the dishes, washes my car, and does other things when not playing music I fail to see how that much money equates into quality either.

And certainly not to inflame the anti-Bose crowd here, but why is everyone (mostly) against them? I don't own any Bose, but my mother in law has that little table top player, and frankly it doesn't sound bad at all. Perhaps she paid to much for it, but so what? Its not like people that buy Bose are killing baby seals, and burning churches on their off time.

Is it that people don't like the marketing end or what?

[GMichael]

I was "reading" my Playboy Magazine a few months back, and they had a section on High-End Audio equipment. The name totally escapes me, but the price did not. The speakers for a pair were about $250,000. Now, that doesn't equate to quality. That equates to " I have a bigger weiner than you, can't you see my $250,000 speakers".

I think that there are extremes on both ends of the market. Unless that speaker does the dishes, washes my car, and does other things when not playing music I fail to see how that much money equates into quality either.

And certainly not to inflame the anti-Bose crowd here, but why is everyone (mostly) against them? I don't own any Bose, but my mother in law has that little table top player, and frankly it doesn't sound bad at all. Perhaps she paid to much for it, but so what? Its not like people that buy Bose are killing baby seals, and burning churches on their off time.

Is it that people don't like the marketing end or what?

I don't know of any Bose systems for $250,000. Wasn't going to that extreme. Average Joe can't afford them.

Out in the so called real world, Average Joe has been convinced that Bose is the absolute best that money can buy. They cost more than many systems that are much better than they are, but people buy the Bose anyhow. Why? Because they cost more and are therefore the best. Keep in mind that most of these average Joe's have never dreamed of a 1/4 mil speaker. They think that Bose is the most expensive available because they have the highest price tag at CC and BB.

I do own a Bose system in my car. It's not bad. But it's not the end all, top of the line, best money can buy, system that Bose and Average Joe would have us believe. Once in a while, Joe comes here. He brags about his new Lifestyle system and how it does everything (maybe it will wash your car, and feet, for you)

There is no doubt that there are those who buy Bose simply because they cost more, and are therefore better. I've met many of them. Thought they were going to lynch me for saying that Bose wasn't the best. You should have seen the fire in their eyes as they got back into their BMW's and sped off.

[Groundbeef]

I don't know of any Bose systems for $250,000. Wasn't going to that extreme. Average Joe can't afford them.

.

It wasn't Bose. It was some sort of handmade wood speaker system. I'll try to look it up, but what a chore, digging through months and months of Playboy.:)

The point is that there are extremes on both ends. To some point, people DO spend more money because money=quality. Does $250,000 for a pair of speakers though really perform better than say a pair for $10,000? I doubt it.

[Woochifer]

I realize the Target & Blockbuster news does not bode well for the HD-DVD camp. But if there is one thing I do know about this industry, it is that formats die slowly, and sometimes are revived against all expectations (just think of vinyl).

You're right in the sense that formats die slowly (Betamax didn't "die" until 2002 when Sony finally stopped producing Beta VCRs), but once formats get relegated to the back aisles, they never get "revivied" (think cassette, 8-track, Minidisc, DCC, CED, Laserdisc, D-VHS, DIVX, etc.) Vinyl's an example of a mass market format that has been relegated to a niche format. I still own a turntable and occasionally buy new LPs, but most of the music I'm looking for isn't available on vinyl and if it is, will usually cost a lot more than the CD. Personally, I think that the periodic talk of vinyl revivals is more wishful thinking than anything reality-based. HD-DVD does not have any potential for future revival since it uses the same underlying video and audio codecs as Blu-ray.


But what is most troubling is that this format war has damaged both sides. Blu-Ray may find that it has won a Pyhrric victory not unlike SACD and will likely be relegated to a niche format too. Online HD downloads are becoming more & more common and will offer advantages over DVD that may suffice for most people. This is relevant, too: HD downloads will offer advantages even to the millions who have HD sets but not 1080p capabilities (like all those people with only Component inputs and not HDMI). I dare say that this format war may thus have negatively affected the growth of 1080p TVs and equipment, too.

I think you're right that this format war has had a net effect of impeding the market growth for HD optical media. Plenty of home theater owners who would've otherwise jumped in by now are still sitting out until they see a winner emerge, and the format war has created plenty of confusion and ill will.

I used to think that HD downloads would emerge sooner than later, thus creating a more time-critical imperative for one or both formats to gain market traction in a hurry. But, I think now that the primary factors that will make or break the market prospects for HD optical discs are how entrenched the DVD format has become, and whether the public considers HD a big enough deal to pay extra. The reason I'm less sold on HD downloads/HD VOD is because HD VOD remains less than "on-demand" at prevailing household broadband speeds (fiber broadband remains too expensive and unavailable in much of the country), and most of the existing HD download schemes I'm aware of put time and/or view limits on the user, making them nothing more than glorified rentals. So long as these limitations remain in place, the market for HD optical media will be more affected by factors other than competition from on-demand services.

The market for HDTVs has exploded well into the mass market, but much of this is simply due to the declining options on the market for non-HDTVs. People are now very likely to replace their current TV with a HDTV, whether they care about HD resolution or not. I don't think the format war has impeded 1080p at all. Manufacturers would still throw those numbers around even if Blu-ray and HD-DVD did not exist (all you have to do is look at all of the "upconverting" 1080p DVD players out there). I think the broader availability of 1080p models was one major reason that LCD zoomed ahead of plasma in market share.


Part of the problem I think for consumers in audio shopping is the lack of distinction between Watts (Power) and the actual sound quality. How many times have you seen 1500 WATTS on the side of a "Box Surrond System". People are attracted to the large watts, and not so much on actual quality because for most of them more power equals better sound.

Well, there's also the form factor to consider as well. Consumers more and more are letting design and decor considerations dictate their audio equipment choices. Look no further than the growth of the on-wall speaker market (which did not even exist five years ago), and the continued popularity of the Bose Acoustimass system and its many sub/sat imitators. They could care less about specs as long as their speakers "match" their new flat panel TV.


Plus, unless you are in a boutique (sp0 audio shop, it is VERY difficult to hear, let alone compare various components. In the big box shops, loud is king.

It is easier to compare say two 50" plasma TV's. Oh look, that one has a sharper picture...etc.

Shocking as it may seem, most regular consumers don't get all wrapped up around high end sound. Its just not as important to them as it is to the passionated audiophiles lurking around in here.

Very true, and that's how it has always been. For example, lots of audiophiles get all wrapped up in the virtues of vinyl, but forget that when vinyl was the dominant format, most consumers played their LPs using record changers with stack spindles, crappy sounding detachable speakers, and spherical sapphire needles (and often a penny taped to the headshell to keep the needle from skipping!). Nowadays, it's all about downloads (but, compared to the sound of those old record changers, the MP3 is a huge step forward). The mass market has always been about what sounds "good enough" at their price point.

And you're right in that demonstrating the benefits of a high end audio system requires a reasonably quiet room with decent acoustics, and a properly done setup. Differentiating between 480p and 1080p in a warehouse club can be done, and the difference is apparent even in passing. Hearing the difference between a CD and SACD or between DD and TrueHD requires a lot more than just a random HTIB sitting in the middle of a noisy warehouse.

[GMichael]

It wasn't Bose. It was some sort of handmade wood speaker system. I'll try to look it up, but what a chore, digging through months and months of Playboy.:)

The point is that there are extremes on both ends. To some point, people DO spend more money because money=quality. Does $250,000 for a pair of speakers though really perform better than say a pair for $10,000? I doubt it.

There's a pair here in AR's review section. Just sort by price. Or you could just flip though all those PB mags.:ihih:

$250,000 sound better than $10,000? Maybe, but I probably can't tell. But most people would say that a $3k Bose system is better than a $1k anything else system. OK, so none of those people are here. But we only make up a small percentage of the population.

Some people will view BR as better than HD because they see it priced higher. They may still buy the HD, but in their minds they'll be thinking they wish they could get the better system. (I'm not saying BR IS better, just that they will think it) People with a little extra income will buy BR for the same reason. Right or wrong, it's what people do.

[pixelthis]

You're right in the sense that formats die slowly (Betamax didn't "die" until 2002 when Sony finally stopped producing Beta VCRs), but once formats get relegated to the back aisles, they never get "revivied" (think cassette, 8-track, Minidisc, DCC, CED, Laserdisc, D-VHS, DIVX, etc.) Vinyl's an example of a mass market format that has been relegated to a niche format. I still own a turntable and occasionally buy new LPs, but most of the music I'm looking for isn't available on vinyl and if it is, will usually cost a lot more than the CD. Personally, I think that the periodic talk of vinyl revivals is more wishful thinking than anything reality-based. HD-DVD does not have any potential for future revival since it uses the same underlying video and audio codecs as Blu-ray.



I think you're right that this format war has had a net effect of impeding the market growth for HD optical media. Plenty of home theater owners who would've otherwise jumped in by now are still sitting out until they see a winner emerge, and the format war has created plenty of confusion and ill will.

I used to think that HD downloads would emerge sooner than later, thus creating a more time-critical imperative for one or both formats to gain market traction in a hurry. But, I think now that the primary factors that will make or break the market prospects for HD optical discs are how entrenched the DVD format has become, and whether the public considers HD a big enough deal to pay extra. The reason I'm less sold on HD downloads/HD VOD is because HD VOD remains less than "on-demand" at prevailing household broadband speeds (fiber broadband remains too expensive and unavailable in much of the country), and most of the existing HD download schemes I'm aware of put time and/or view limits on the user, making them nothing more than glorified rentals. So long as these limitations remain in place, the market for HD optical media will be more affected by factors other than competition from on-demand services.

The market for HDTVs has exploded well into the mass market, but much of this is simply due to the declining options on the market for non-HDTVs. People are now very likely to replace their current TV with a HDTV, whether they care about HD resolution or not. I don't think the format war has impeded 1080p at all. Manufacturers would still throw those numbers around even if Blu-ray and HD-DVD did not exist (all you have to do is look at all of the "upconverting" 1080p DVD players out there). I think the broader availability of 1080p models was one major reason that LCD zoomed ahead of plasma in market share.



Well, there's also the form factor to consider as well. Consumers more and more are letting design and decor considerations dictate their audio equipment choices. Look no further than the growth of the on-wall speaker market (which did not even exist five years ago), and the continued popularity of the Bose Acoustimass system and its many sub/sat imitators. They could care less about specs as long as their speakers "match" their new flat panel TV.



Very true, and that's how it has always been. For example, lots of audiophiles get all wrapped up in the virtues of vinyl, but forget that when vinyl was the dominant format, most consumers played their LPs using record changers with stack spindles, crappy sounding detachable speakers, and spherical sapphire needles (and often a penny taped to the headshell to keep the needle from skipping!). Nowadays, it's all about downloads (but, compared to the sound of those old record changers, the MP3 is a huge step forward). The mass market has always been about what sounds "good enough" at their price point.

And you're right in that demonstrating the benefits of a high end audio system requires a reasonably quiet room with decent acoustics, and a properly done setup. Differentiating between 480p and 1080p in a warehouse club can be done, and the difference is apparent even in passing. Hearing the difference between a CD and SACD or between DD and TrueHD requires a lot more than just a random HTIB sitting in the middle of a noisy warehouse.
It was pretty much over for beta in the early eighties.
Sony and a few amateur videographers kept it alive, but at the last the few that were sold were superbeta and ED beta, and most sales were outside the US.
AS for audio vs video I notice that you tend to lump two different things together peruvian.
How about apples and oranges? fords and chevys?
Its a problem for audiophiles who also like video to decide how much to spend on video versus audio, but most dont think that way.
For most music is what you DL on the web, listen to on your I-pod, most arent serious listeners who just sit and listen to music like most audiphiles do.
Most would like a HT sure, who wouldnt? WE ARE A VISUAL species, for dogs its smell
(100,000 times better than humans) and bats sound.
We can watch TV all day but try to get the average person to sit and listen for just a half hour, try it.
But for the rare audiophile its a problem, I AGONIZED over getting rid of my rig and going into the compromise that was my first HT, but for most the sound from a HT is probably
better than what they're used to.
A company on this site (mangus) is selling tiny t-amp digital amps, 20 wpc feeding small speakers, trust me this type thing (digital amps) is going to be the thing for mainstream HT systems, compact and sounding pretty good.
And when a audio based company like ONKYO IS SELLING DIGITAL AMPS, well, thats the wave of the future probably, amps with discrete componets will be like turntables,
niche products for those that dont want to compromise
But I think this tread is a little offtopic.
Oh yeah, the fate of HDDVD, which is CURTAINS
I have seen stronger formats tank.
As for what you "get " if I'm right, well, its what you wont "get", an expensive doorstop
or "boatanchor"(fill with concrete, makes a great boatanchor)
And if I am wrong? No harm or foul as Blu wjll be the dominant format:ihih:

[PeruvianSkies]

It was pretty much over for beta in the early eighties.
Sony and a few amateur videographers kept it alive, but at the last the few that were sold were superbeta and ED beta, and most sales were outside the US.
AS for audio vs video I notice that you tend to lump two different things together peruvian.
How about apples and oranges? fords and chevys?
Its a problem for audiophiles who also like video to decide how much to spend on video versus audio, but most dont think that way.
For most music is what you DL on the web, listen to on your I-pod, most arent serious listeners who just sit and listen to music like most audiphiles do.
Most would like a HT sure, who wouldnt? WE ARE A VISUAL species, for dogs its smell
(100,000 times better than humans) and bats sound.
We can watch TV all day but try to get the average person to sit and listen for just a half hour, try it.
But for the rare audiophile its a problem, I AGONIZED over getting rid of my rig and going into the compromise that was my first HT, but for most the sound from a HT is probably
better than what they're used to.
A company on this site (mangus) is selling tiny t-amp digital amps, 20 wpc feeding small speakers, trust me this type thing (digital amps) is going to be the thing for mainstream HT systems, compact and sounding pretty good.
And when a audio based company like ONKYO IS SELLING DIGITAL AMPS, well, thats the wave of the future probably, amps with discrete componets will be like turntables,
niche products for those that dont want to compromise
But I think this tread is a little offtopic.
Oh yeah, the fate of HDDVD, which is CURTAINS
I have seen stronger formats tank.
As for what you "get " if I'm right, well, its what you wont "get", an expensive doorstop
or "boatanchor"(fill with concrete, makes a great boatanchor)
And if I am wrong? No harm or foul as Blu wjll be the dominant format:ihih:

While Audio and Video might be two different things, they work together quite often. Apples and Oranges might taste different, but they also have a lot in common: both fruits, both grow on trees, both round, both can be used to make drinks, both have seeds inside, etc etc etc. I grouped audio and video together because I was in A/V club...ok!

[Mr Peabody]

What is Onkyo doing with digital, do you have any links? Onkyo's strength over most home receivers, in my opinion, has always been their use of high current amp section.

[Feanor]

What is Onkyo doing with digital, do you have any links? Onkyo's strength over most home receivers, in my opinion, has always been their use of high current amp section.

This Onkyo A-9555 is digital and has had some good review, I believe ...
http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=A-9555&class=Amplifier&p=i

http://stereomojo.com/SHOOTOUT2007INTEGRATEDS.htm

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks Feanor. The 9555 would be an incredible integrated for some of the people here looking for a good budget stereo set up. One Call had it priced at $699.00. Especially coming with a built in phono stage. I thought it was cool that even with using digital tachnology the Onkyo was able to go from 85 watts into 8 ohms and then 200 into 4 ohms, keeping with the characteristics of what a high current amp would do. I'd love to hear one.

The Shoot Out article was good. What do you think of that Trends at $129.00 being the winner? Talk about your "giant killer". Now if they came out with a model as good with more inputs and power they could make a big market impact. Still at $129.00 and winning the shoot out, this has to be a budget audio enthusiasts dream. With a decent source and sensitive speakers you could have a killer system for not much money.

An interesting shoot out would something similar but mix in a few amps with analog outputs to see how people perceived the difference.

[nightflier]

This Onkyo A-9555 is digital and has had some good review, I believe ...
http://www.us.onkyo.com/model.cfm?m=A-9555&class=Amplifier&p=i

http://stereomojo.com/SHOOTOUT2007INTEGRATEDS.htm

My apologies for disagreeing here, but for $700, I can think of a lot of integrateds I would buy instead. Yes it has a decent amount of power, but it lacks pre outs, 12v trigger, decent build, and several other features that a Yamaha, Marantz or Denon would not hesitate to add at that price point. And for the same $700 you could find a host of better second hand integrateds in the near audiophile ranks.

[Mr Peabody]

I wouldn't debate the issue because I haven't heard the Onkyo but it held it's own with some pretty expensive competition in the Class T shoot out. I think if it was based on sound quality it might just kick some butt. You may be correct that there are some good integrated amps for $700.00 but I doubt if any of them come from Yamaha. I had a vintage Yamaha costing that much back in the day and it was disappointing. I had a Luxman receiver and especially my Sansui au9500 kill the Yamaha.

[pixelthis]

I wouldn't debate the issue because I haven't heard the Onkyo but it held it's own with some pretty expensive competition in the Class T shoot out. I think if it was based on sound quality it might just kick some butt. You may be correct that there are some good integrated amps for $700.00 but I doubt if any of them come from Yamaha. I had a vintage Yamaha costing that much back in the day and it was disappointing. I had a Luxman receiver and especially my Sansui au9500 kill the Yamaha.
I think that its really funny that the Onkyo has a PHONO STAGE
My current onkyo has a dedicated stage, but a pure mode for completely analog sound.
Most turntable addicts would go to the gallows before hooking their precious platter up to a digital amp.
Nice of them to include one tho:1:

[drseid]

Oh yeah, the fate of HDDVD, which is CURTAINS
I have seen stronger formats tank.
As for what you "get " if I'm right, well, its what you wont "get", an expensive doorstop
or "boatanchor"(fill with concrete, makes a great boatanchor)
And if I am wrong? No harm or foul as Blu wjll be the dominant format:ihih:

...and I have seen weaker formats succeed.

As for the guarantee... What kind of prize is that? ;-) I was hoping for maybe some extra software to add to my HD DVD collection (maybe that nice Harry Potter collection coming out in the fall?)... oh well.

We will see, I guess. With Toshiba coming out with new 3rd gen models in October; one with a street price of $199 (the HD-A3) versus Blu-ray, offering the blockbuster Spiderman trilogy, it is going to be an interesting holiday season. The best part is I win either way. :-)

---Dave

[nightflier]

We will see, I guess. With Toshiba coming out with new 3rd gen models in October; one with a street price of $199 (the HD-A3) versus Blu-ray, offering the blockbuster Spiderman trilogy, it is going to be an interesting holiday season. The best part is I win either way. :-)

I think the $199 HD-DVD player is indicative of some un-touted advantages. As was mentioned in several earlier threads about the format war, HD-DVD players and disks are less difficult to manufacture and benefit from a bit less in licensing fees. Also, having been the first out of the gate, HD-DVD has had more time in the market to allow prices to fall. I think both these factors have made it possible for Toshiba and Microsoft to lower the price of their players well beyond what Sony and the rest of the Blu-Ray camp have been able to offer.

I think this is significant and could very well give them a bump in this race. $199 for a player coming out in September is ideal for them as this gives ample time to ramp up production for the coming xmas season. With sales, rebates, and bundle pricing, I can easily picture a $99 player on sale at CC/BB right after Thanksgiving. This would be attractive to anyone looking to replace an aging standard DVD player.

Personally, I still want to see this price advantage trickle down to the cost of the disks, but maybe by xmas that may actually happen. They are already slightly lower than BR disks at some stores, which I imagine is fallout from the barrage of premature tales of doom-and-gloom that BR has won the war. If HD-DVD disks drop in price some more and offer real cost-savings compared to BR, the tide could very well change (much to Pixel's chagrin, I'm sure).

[Mr Peabody]

Just going by the projected retail prices of BR players they aren't lowering their prices. Denon's are $1&2k, Samsung is remaining about where the BD-P1200 was. I haven't seen Panasonic's pricing of any new players. Look, the HD-DVD cheap price hasn't done much for them yet and maybe going lower will just look like they are unloading. Limited to only one companies movie titles has to hurt. If Warner starts pumping out the duel format discs that may give HD-DVD a shot in the arm. I have to admit, I am shocked that Toshiba's $299.00 price didn't have them rolling out the door. Especially compared to BR prices. I wonder if the demand for either is very high. I also wonder at $199.00 if the Tosh will still have the Silicon Optics chip for upconverting. I know one thing, if they can't give them away at $199.00 or less, they should give up.

[drseid]

Just going by the projected retail prices of BR players they aren't lowering their prices. Denon's are $1&2k, Samsung is remaining about where the BD-P1200 was. I haven't seen Panasonic's pricing of any new players. Look, the HD-DVD cheap price hasn't done much for them yet and maybe going lower will just look like they are unloading. Limited to only one companies movie titles has to hurt. If Warner starts pumping out the duel format discs that may give HD-DVD a shot in the arm. I have to admit, I am shocked that Toshiba's $299.00 price didn't have them rolling out the door. Especially compared to BR prices. I wonder if the demand for either is very high. I also wonder at $199.00 if the Tosh will still have the Silicon Optics chip for upconverting. I know one thing, if they can't give them away at $199.00 or less, they should give up.

Actually HD DVD has plenty of studios (major and minor) on board, in the case of Warner, they have always supported HD DVD (actually they may be its biggest supporter if you measure support by number of titles released). They just have Universal as their only major studio that only supports HD DVD (no BD support). Of course that said, BD has Sony, its subsidiaries and Fox solely in their court (no HD DVD support) and that could work to BD's favor over time.

As for chip set, the chip set on the new HD DVD players is the same as the 2nd gen players, just with some enhancements. The retail on the lowest model is also the same as the HD-A2 ($299), just HD DVD is going to have a $100 off rebate offer in the works shortly after the next gen model's release (I guess in time for the holiday season)... I would agree that if a $199 street price does not get consumers to jump on board, it will be a tough sell for HD DVD going forward.

---Dave

[musicman1999]

Disney is BluRay only as well,which gives them the top 3 grossing studios.In 2006 Sony,Fox and Disney combined for about half of all movie business in North America.

bill

[PeruvianSkies]

I want Blu-ray to win. Who else is with me???

[drseid]

Disney is BluRay only as well,which gives them the top 3 grossing studios.In 2006 Sony,Fox and Disney combined for about half of all movie business in North America.

bill

Absolutely right... I knew I forgot one...

---Dave

[nightflier]

I want Blu-ray to win. Who else is with me???

I want HD-DVD to win. Who else is with me???

Seriously, I want both #$%@# sides to stop #*&^$% wining like little #^%$^& weenies, sit down as %$@# grownups and hammer their ^&%$^ issues out so that I can finally buy a $#@%$ player without having to worry that my favorite @!#$% movie will be available in that %$^#$ format!

[musicman1999]

I want HD-DVD to win. Who else is with me???

Seriously, I want both #$%@# sides to stop #*&^$% wining like little #^%$^& weenies, sit down as %$@# grownups and hammer their ^&%$^ issues out so that I can finally buy a $#@%$ player without having to worry that my favorite @!#$% movie will be available in that %$^#$ format!

Ditto,enough already.

bill

[pixelthis]

I want Blu-ray to win. Who else is with me???
BLU RAY has already won. Congradulations
The computer camp wants the extra storage.
Most studios are backing it.
The price isnt that much higher and there are real advantages (extra disc space, etc)
The water is streaming out the dike in several places, one of these days the dike will DISAPEAR
And nightflier can quit cussing:hand:

[GMichael]

I was leaning toward the BR camp. But now I'm thinking that they both are losers. I'm all for watching HD on cable now.

[Mr Peabody]

If any of you who think you want HD on cable only haven't compared. With cable the performance has many variables from town to town and house to house but Blu-ray is quite a bit better than my cable HD feed.

[PeruvianSkies]

BLU RAY has already won. Congradulations
The computer camp wants the extra storage.
Most studios are backing it.
The price isnt that much higher and there are real advantages (extra disc space, etc)
The water is streaming out the dike in several places, one of these days the dike will DISAPEAR
And nightflier can quit cussing:hand:

Is there around the same time that you'll learn how to spell?

[pixelthis]

Is there around the same time that you'll learn how to spell?
Sure dont need lessons from YOU, Mr there:prrr:

[PeruvianSkies]

Sure dont need lessons from YOU, Mr there:prrr:

There's a difference between a typo and flat out being uneducated, which you clearly are as you can't even spell simple words like: congratulations. Besides my mistake (besides being a typo) was also an issue of grammar, not spelling.

[pixelthis]

There's a difference between a typo and flat out being uneducated, which you clearly are as you can't even spell simple words like: congratulations. Besides my mistake (besides being a typo) was also an issue of grammar, not spelling.
So you're boo-boo was a typo, mine was a result of being "uneducated"
So tell me, you elitist bore, just how do you know how much education I have?.
You are not only a ninny, you're a stuck up ninny:prrr:

[GMichael]

If any of you who think you want HD on cable only haven't compared. With cable the performance has many variables from town to town and house to house but Blu-ray is quite a bit better than my cable HD feed.

Good point. I knew this but somehow forgot.

[GMichael]

So you're boo-boo was a typo, mine was a result of being "uneducated"
So tell me, you elitist bore, just how do you know how much education I have?.
You are not only a ninny, you're a stuck up ninny:prrr:

Why do I feel like Lex and SVI were cloned into one person?

[Mr Peabody]

Wow, reading certain recent posts gave me a Charles Winchester III, flashback.

[pixelthis]

Why do I feel like Lex and SVI were cloned into one person?
Let me ask you, if some inbred south american questioned your education without knowing anything about you how would you feel?
My electronics classes were awhile ago, and I've been out of the field for some time,
but I HAVE taken apart a television and for my "final project" built a three stage
fet transistor amp. And I have "dabbled" in this hobby of HT for 20 years,
and audio for about 40 (I'm fifty years old)
Basically I had an audio only system composed of denon, genesis, NAD, pioneer,
and Thorens BEFORE mr. peruvian was a wet spot on his mothers side of the bed.
I have forgotten more about this stuff than he will ever learn.
He might have a "10k AUDIO SYSTEM " as he likes to brag about, but he also has a ten cent head to go along with it:incazzato:

[PeruvianSkies]

Let me ask you, if some inbred south american questioned your education without knowing anything about you how would you feel?
My electronics classes were awhile ago, and I've been out of the field for some time,
but I HAVE taken apart a television and for my "final project" built a three stage
fet transistor amp. And I have "dabbled" in this hobby of HT for 20 years,
and audio for about 40 (I'm fifty years old)
Basically I had an audio only system composed of denon, genesis, NAD, pioneer,
and Thorens BEFORE mr. peruvian was a wet spot on his mothers side of the bed.
I have forgotten more about this stuff than he will ever learn.
He might have a "10k AUDIO SYSTEM " as he likes to brag about, but he also has a ten cent head to go along with it:incazzato:

I don't recall ever mentioning how much my audio system cost...nor do I recall 'bragging' about it. I am not a price-dropper unlike yourself. Besides 10K would actually be LESS than what I have wrapped up in my gear, so I would actually be modest in my bragging. Oh and who is South American ????

[Mr Peabody]

I realize that sometimes things can get heated on a thread but race or cultural slurrs are totally inappropriate. One of the assets of this board is the fact that we can communicate and exchange ideas with those in other countries.

[kexodusc]

Why do I feel like Lex and SVI were cloned into one person?
Oh my %#@*in gawwddd....that thing...should not be...just imagine, all the poorly spelled, unintelligible, incomprehensible sentences with every third word CAPITALIZED!

(vocalized shudder)

To be fair, I think SVI was somewhat innocent. Lex was just a complete woman-hatin' moron.

[SlumpBuster]

Oh and who is South American ????

People living in Peru are South American. Peru is in South America. :D Glad I could help.

To be fair, you did mention $10,000 in audio equipment next to a 30" HDTV

[PeruvianSkies]

People living in Peru are South American. Peru is in South America. :D Glad I could help.

To be fair, you did mention $10,000 in audio equipment next to a 30" HDTV

When was that? I honestly don't recall.

[SlumpBuster]

..meanwhile, they wouldn't say the same thing if they saw my 30" HDTV flanked with nearly 10K worth of audio stuff.

I only noted it because I read this thread for the first time today.

[PeruvianSkies]

I only noted it because I read this thread for the first time today.

Yeah, but the purpose of me posting that was not to make myself look good or to brag about it, it was simply to emphasize my point about audio and video and what people perceive as being important and such.

[GMichael]

Oh my %#@*in gawwddd....that thing...should not be...just imagine, all the poorly spelled, unintelligible, incomprehensible sentences with every third word CAPITALIZED!

(vocalized shudder)

To be fair, I think SVI was somewhat innocent. Lex was just a complete woman-hatin' moron.

Yes, SVI was innocent. Information just didn't seem to be able to find away to get into his head.
Lex, knew a few things. Just enough to get himself into fights about it. His biggest downfall was that he wouldn't back off once he ran into someone who knew more. He'd just keep spouting off about how stupid the other person was.
Pixledick is a great combination of both of them. Granted, he's more like Lex than SVI. But there is a little SVI inside him, no doubt. (pun intended)

PS, PD keeps messing with you because he sees that it upsets you. He's having fun at your expense. IE: You keep feeding the trolls.

[bobsticks]

Let me ask you, if some inbred south american questioned your education without knowing anything about you how would you feel?


Wow. All this because "PennsylvaniaSkies" wasn't as good of a song title.

Damn, why's he gotta be inbred?

[PeruvianSkies]

Wow. All this because "PennsylvaniaSkies" wasn't as good of a song title.

Damn, why's he gotta be inbred?

Omgoodness....bobsticks...I have been looking for just the perfect compilation disc title...I think that's gonna be it!!! Sweet.

[GMichael]

Wow. All this because "PennsylvaniaSkies" wasn't as good of a song title.

Damn, why's he gotta be inbred?

Just my luck! I'm planning to to take a few friends and a few canoes down a PA river in two weeks. Why do I keep hearing a bango?

[bobsticks]

Just my luck! I'm planning to to take a few friends and a few canoes down a PA river in two weeks. Why do I keep hearing a bango?

Hey G, you been practicing your pig squeels?

[GMichael]

Hey G, you been practicing your pig squeels?

That's it! I'm setting a trap. A couple of razors up my b.t should slow them down.

[Rich-n-Texas]

My oh my, what course has this thread taken? I think Wooch needs to come along and right the ship again. And... when oh when will PD get the message?


PS, PD keeps messing with you because he sees that it upsets you...
I disagree. For the most part this guy is absolutely unwilling or unable to admit it when he's wrong. You'll never read: you're right, or, my mistake... ever. He'll do whatever it takes to either side-step the fact that someone's proved him wrong, or he'll throw up a smokescreen to steer the point into a direction favorable to him. That's it. I know this because I work day in and day out with a "thinks he knows it all" personality just like him.

BTW, what's a "bango"? :idea:

[nightflier]

What was this thread about, anyhow?

[GMichael]

What was this thread about, anyhow?

It's about..............




.........3 pages too long.

[Woochifer]

My oh my, what course has this thread taken? I think Wooch needs to come along and right the ship again. And... when oh when will PD get the message?

Right the ship? Uh, sleep deprivation (baby's now 11 weeks in, and I'm getting 6 hours of sleep a night instead of 3!) and getting lost while trying to find my way back across the border from Kex's 6k celebration kinda disqualifies me from playing navigator on this voyage! :cornut:

As for PD, I think you're giving him a little bit too much credit! Lot of his posts are prototypical flame bait, and it would not surprise me if he's a reincarnation of any number of past muckrakers who've passed through these parts.

BTW, what was the topic again? :18:

[pixelthis]

My oh my, what course has this thread taken? I think Wooch needs to come along and right the ship again. And... when oh when will PD get the message?


I disagree. For the most part this guy is absolutely unwilling or unable to admit it when he's wrong. You'll never read: you're right, or, my mistake... ever. He'll do whatever it takes to either side-step the fact that someone's proved him wrong, or he'll throw up a smokescreen to steer the point into a direction favorable to him. That's it. I know this because I work day in and day out with a "thinks he knows it all" personality just like him.

BTW, what's a "bango"? :idea:
Just because you dont like what I say doesnt make it "wrong".
As for the current "disagreement" with ol peruvian skier, well, this elitist nutcase started
it. Where I come from if you dont defend yourself you are just as guilty as the one throwing
the crap.
As for comments about being "inbred" and a few others (pixeldick comes to mind) I have a thick skin but to then turn around and say I am the one who started throwing slurs?
Got it a bit backwards dont we? Probably the way you're HT is wired considering what you know about electronics.
The truth is that most on this pitiful "forum" know next to nothing save the myths and
nonsense that has somehow managed to migrate over from audio to video.
Audiophiles claim that obsolete tube designs are better, turntables with half the dynamic range are "better", and a lot on this site claim that CRT'S are "better", in spite of the
obvious that even the great unwashed can see, mainly that the day of the CRT is over,
and thank god, I have put up with these beasts for decades, not out of choice but nessesity.
Oh and KEX theres a reason your plywood speakers arent half as good as a pair
of Cerwin Vegas, but I wont bother to tell you, since you obviously already know everything
Rich on paper (and not for long the way the market is going) I used to think you were a pretty nice guy, but you have turned pretty hostile since I have pointed out the obvoius,
mainly that the day of the microprojection DLP are numbered.
When you can get a 50in DLP for 998$, and the cheapest 42in lcd is a grand,
and nobody is buying the dlp, well, do I have to paint you a picture?
As for being a "troll", if that is what intruding upon this comfortable little circle jerk is,
then thats what I am.
Sit around and keep mouthing the same nonsense, and agreeing with each other about basic untruths, ignorant about everything but your own greatness, which is largely a delusion, and wonder why the numbers on this forum keep shrinking.
I posted a few radical ideas, trying to ignite some form of debate, hell, ignite SOMETHING,
BUT HAVE RECEIVED NOTHING BUT HOSTILITY.
So I will leave you bunch of clueless "inbred" know-nothings and return to some of the REAL forums out there, some that actually entertain a few new ideas every once in awhile.
And from you're posts peruvian skier I know the truth, that you are 12 years old or less, you're folks need to give you a spanking:mad5:

[GMichael]

Just because you don't like what I say doesn't make it "wrong".

You have this bass ackwards. We don't think you're wrong because we don't like you. We don't like you because you are wrong and can't see the light. You spout off about things that are utterly stupid and then back them up by attacking anyone who doesn't agree with your nonsense. You are welcome to your point of view up until you start putting down other's POV. Then you get responses in kind.



As for the current "disagreement" with ol peruvian skier, well, this elitist nutcase started
it. Where I come from if you dont defend yourself you are just as guilty as the one throwing
the crap.

You say things like "elitist nutcase" and then wonder why you get called PD.




As for comments about being "inbred" and a few others (pixeldick comes to mind) I have a thick skin but to then turn around and say I am the one who started throwing slurs?
Got it a bit backwards dont we?

Your putting the cart in front of the horse again. You had started this long ago. Way before anyone had anything to say about you, you were already putting everyone else's ideas down. Pay attention to what you are saying will ya.




Probably the way you're HT is wired considering what you know about electronics.
The truth is that most on this pitiful "forum" know next to nothing save the myths and
nonsense that has somehow managed to migrate over from audio to video.
Audiophiles claim that obsolete tube designs are better, turntables with half the dynamic range are "better", and a lot on this site claim that CRT'S are "better", in spite of the
obvious that even the great unwashed can see, mainly that the day of the CRT is over,
and thank god, I have put up with these beasts for decades, not out of choice but necessity.

CRT's do have a better picture than LCD's. I agree that they are a dying breed, but the picture can not be argued by anyone who really pays attention to quality. Tubes & turntable? Yeah, another couple of problematic ways of doing things. But again, the quality is there. You just need to pay attention more. (this keeps coming up doesn't it?)


Oh and KEX there's a reason your plywood speakers aren't half as good as a pair
of Cerwin Vegas, but I wont bother to tell you, since you obviously already know everything

Just another attack from some who hasn't made any sense yet on a person who has proven to know what he's talking about. Take a step back and (here it comes again) try to pay attention.


Rich on paper (and not for long the way the market is going) I used to think you were a pretty nice guy, but you have turned pretty hostile since I have pointed out the obvoius,
mainly that the day of the microprojection DLP are numbered.
When you can get a 50in DLP for 998$, and the cheapest 42in lcd is a grand,
and nobody is buying the dlp, well, do I have to paint you a picture?

You said this to Tex on about your 3rd post. So when was it that you thought he was a nice guy. And if DLP is so bad, why is it that their sales keep going up?


As for being a "troll", if that is what intruding upon this comfortable little circle jerk is,
then thats what I am.

You come here and stir up the pot just to see who will get sucked into an argument with you. Look up the definition to the word troll. It fits. Aren't you paying attention yet?


Sit around and keep mouthing the same nonsense, and agreeing with each other about basic untruths, ignorant about everything but your own greatness, which is largely a delusion, and wonder why the numbers on this forum keep shrinking.

Agreeing with each other? Are you fricking kidding me? Now I know you aren't paying attention. Go back and really read a few of the threads about cables, or speaker wires, or speaker break in, or planners vs cones, CD's vs LP's, tubes vs SS, Yamaha vs Denon vs HK vs Marantz, etc etc etc. These people will debate just about anything. The only difference is that they actually know something about what they are fighting about.


I posted a few radical ideas, trying to ignite some form of debate, hell, ignite SOMETHING,
BUT HAVE RECEIVED NOTHING BUT HOSTILITY.

Radical ideas are welcome. But as soon as someone disagrees with you, you fly off the handle and start the hostility. Then you blame them for fighting back. Where we come from if you don't defend yourself you are just as guilty as the one throwing the crap.


So I will leave you bunch of clueless "inbred" know-nothings and return to some of the REAL forums out there, some that actually entertain a few new ideas every once in awhile.

No hostility there huh? Are you paying attention to what you are typing yet?


And from you're posts peruvian skier I know the truth, that you are 12 years old or less, you're folks need to give you a spanking:mad5:

You say your 50 huh? You have yet to say anything that would make anyone believe that. You are more like a little spoiled brat who never found a way to get along with anyone else. Are you going to take your ball and run home now?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Boy I've been sooooo waiting for someone to put it right on the table for this guy and you hit every nail squarely on the head GM. Let me see if I can award you a green chicklet yet.

Can't give GM one, can't give PS one, can't give Wooch one, can't even give PD a red one (He's on my ignore list...). WTF???

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, when we hadn't heard from you in a couple days I thought you might have gotten your feelings hurt and left, I should have known you'd want one last word before exiting. You need to be more open minded. You may be 50 but you can't tell anyone a turntable, tube amp or anything else is not as good as something unless you have some experience. Cerwin Vega at one time may have been a decent speaker but now they are a budget line. In this hobby there is no black & white, right or wrong, when it comes to what one prefers. If we all liked the same thing there would only need be one system. I used to run 250x2 of Krell power but not have 100 watt tube monoblocks, these each have their own strengths and things I wish were better but I prefer the tube amps. You having no idea of either can't say tubes are an inferior technology. This is where you stick your foot in your mouth and piss people off. You need to stick with what you know. Everyone has an opinion and like arm pits, some stink, but it helps if you base your opinion on some experience or knowledge. Your center costed $300.00, mine costed around $1,800.00. This doesn't make me right and you wrong, but it gives me a perspective on what the difference is between one costing $300.00 compared to one costing $1,800.00. Some may not hear that much difference to warrent letting go that much money and that's their choice but don't damn some one who does think it's worth it. And certainly don't comment one way or the other unless you've had the opportunity to hear a $1,800.00 speaker for yourself. The same with tubes, turntables or any other product. I believe at one time you did mention you heard some high end tube gear but if you maintain your receiver sounds better well then something is wrong, either with your hearing or the tube gear set up. Many here have budget gear so you can't say everyone is elitest. It's alright to have opposing opinions. If you think LCD is going to take over fine. I have a DLP and your opinion don't bother me. In fact, if I had to buy in today's market, I most likely would not buy DLP.

You can read a number of posts here, not all of us agree. Read, "what's up with HD radio", for example. Woochifer, myself and Nightflier were exchanging opposing opinions yet no one got mad or started name calling. It was a good debate. In many of the discussions opposing ideas bring up something maybe I haven't thought of or didn't know. If you were a man you'd stick with it and try to improve your style some. You can't always be right. In most opposing discussions, you just have to agree to disagree. As the above example, Wooch didn't change my opinion and I'm sure I didn't change his. Who knows though, maybe we both came out with a better understanding of each side or maybe learned something. And the fact that you had a falling out isn't the end of the world either. There have been some here in the past that got under my skin and made me go places I wish I hadn't. We are all only human.

[GMichael]

There have been some here in the past that got under my skin and made me go places I wish I hadn't. We are all only human.

I like the way you said it better than I did. Now I feel bad for being so mean to him.

I'm sorry Pix. Come back. But be nice.

[PeruvianSkies]

I like the way you said it better than I did. Now I feel bad for being so mean to him.

I'm sorry Pix. Come back. But be nice.

You know we audiophile-types are hard to get along with....geesh we are a difficult breed. Maybe our social skills and etiquette are lacking because of too much listening to music???

[pixelthis]

Pix, when we hadn't heard from you in a couple days I thought you might have gotten your feelings hurt and left, I should have known you'd want one last word before exiting. You need to be more open minded. You may be 50 but you can't tell anyone a turntable, tube amp or anything else is not as good as something unless you have some experience. Cerwin Vega at one time may have been a decent speaker but now they are a budget line. In this hobby there is no black & white, right or wrong, when it comes to what one prefers. If we all liked the same thing there would only need be one system. I used to run 250x2 of Krell power but not have 100 watt tube monoblocks, these each have their own strengths and things I wish were better but I prefer the tube amps. You having no idea of either can't say tubes are an inferior technology. This is where you stick your foot in your mouth and piss people off. You need to stick with what you know. Everyone has an opinion and like arm pits, some stink, but it helps if you base your opinion on some experience or knowledge. Your center costed $300.00, mine costed around $1,800.00. This doesn't make me right and you wrong, but it gives me a perspective on what the difference is between one costing $300.00 compared to one costing $1,800.00. Some may not hear that much difference to warrent letting go that much money and that's their choice but don't damn some one who does think it's worth it. And certainly don't comment one way or the other unless you've had the opportunity to hear a $1,800.00 speaker for yourself. The same with tubes, turntables or any other product. I believe at one time you did mention you heard some high end tube gear but if you maintain your receiver sounds better well then something is wrong, either with your hearing or the tube gear set up. Many here have budget gear so you can't say everyone is elitest. It's alright to have opposing opinions. If you think LCD is going to take over fine. I have a DLP and your opinion don't bother me. In fact, if I had to buy in today's market, I most likely would not buy DLP.

You can read a number of posts here, not all of us agree. Read, "what's up with HD radio", for example. Woochifer, myself and Nightflier were exchanging opposing opinions yet no one got mad or started name calling. It was a good debate. In many of the discussions opposing ideas bring up something maybe I haven't thought of or didn't know. If you were a man you'd stick with it and try to improve your style some. You can't always be right. In most opposing discussions, you just have to agree to disagree. As the above example, Wooch didn't change my opinion and I'm sure I didn't change his. Who knows though, maybe we both came out with a better understanding of each side or maybe learned something. And the fact that you had a falling out isn't the end of the world either. There have been some here in the past that got under my skin and made me go places I wish I hadn't. We are all only human.
The reference to cerwin vegas was an insult, they are basically car stereo speakers.
As for me not knowing what I am talking about, I've been doing this for a very long time,
do you think that my trip to this little forum is my first foray into HT or audio?
I havent started with any name calling but tend to be a bit outspoken, if speakers sound like crap, them I beleive in calling a spade a spade. If you consider that an insult then you need to get a life. Think my speakers are crap? I would be very interested in hearing your opinion.
But not on this forum.
Mr peabody you are one of the few with any grace and charm, with the intelligence to tell a joke from an "insult" or "lie", and you are truly gonna be missed.
But those like "rich in Texas? (not for long).
You say I refuse to admit when I am wrong, well how do you know?
You tried to hook NATILUS speakers to a HTIB for gods sake.
You are what we tech types call "lightswitch people", you flip a lightswitch and think nothing about the massive amount of effort it takes to make that little miracle work.
And you get all pissed off when we "know it alls' start to point out unpleasant facts
that poke through your little delusional bubble.
The truth is you need to sell those speakers to someone who appreciates them, and get you some nice ones from that mail order company that you got the rest of your
gear from.
And GM, well, you're named after a mortage company that just happens to sell cars on the side, and wont be doing that soon, and your moniker relates to automobiles
on a HT site. What more can I say?:sleep:

One more little thing, I have a variety of albums (diamond dogs, gill scott heron, honkey
chateu) that I bought NEW in the 70's, and have had more turntables than you can beleive,
I think I know a little about their sonic qualities, and while I still enjoy listening to my records, they have about 50% of the dynamic range, wow and flutter, and pops and scratches
no matter how meticulously you clean them, they just dont sound as good as CD or SACD,
and if so called "audiophiles" want to claim so then thats their credibility, but I am always being lumped into that group, and it gets old.
Its really funny that you claim I dont "know much" about this stuff when I built a
three stage FET amp during my third year of electronics class, IN 1975.
Way before most on this site were more than a wet spot on their mothers side of the bed.
You may not like what I have to say but if you live long enough you will find that most,
not all but most is true. A bit unpleasant but true.
Especially in the case of old rich, there will always be a market for DLP front projectors
but the "microprojection" form factor is doomed, just no market for it.
Rant and rave all you want rich, but your company will take a hit on these
As for having no idea about tube amps, when I was working on TVsets most still had
tubes.
Most "high end " tube amps are based on the single end triode, that was basically
obsolete in 1934, the emitters are powered by a heater circuit that is basically like having
a space heater in your gear. That "tube" sound you and other love is harmonic distortion
(at least 5% in most tube gear) If you like that sort of thing fine, but please dont say
I am "pissing people off because I dont know what I am talking about.
Seems like I am pissing people off because I DO know what I am talking about.
In time maybe a few will come to understand what I was trying to do on this site, after they think about it for awhile, but I think it best that all of you sit around and chat about
such things a "video vs audio" (or apples vs oranges?) for now:hand:

[GMichael]

The reference to cerwin vegas was an insult, they are basically car stereo speakers.
As for me not knowing what I am talking about, I've been doing this for a very long time,
do you think that my trip to this little forum is my first foray into HT or audio?
I havent started with any name calling but tend to be a bit outspoken, if speakers sound like crap, them I beleive in calling a spade a spade. If you consider that an insult then you need to get a life. Think my speakers are crap? I would be very interested in hearing your opinion.
But not on this forum.
Mr peabody you are one of the few with any grace and charm, with the intelligence to tell a joke from an "insult" or "lie", and you are truly gonna be missed.
But those like "rich in Texas? (not for long).
You say I refuse to admit when I am wrong, well how do you know?
You tried to hook NATILUS speakers to a HTIB for gods sake.
You are what we tech types call "lightswitch people", you flip a lightswitch and think nothing about the massive amount of effort it takes to make that little miracle work.
And you get all pissed off when we "know it alls' start to point out unpleasant facts
that poke through your little delusional bubble.
The truth is you need to sell those speakers to someone who appreciates them, and get you some nice ones from that mail order company that you got the rest of your
gear from.
And GM, well, you're named after a mortage company that just happens to sell cars on the side, and wont be doing that soon, and your moniker relates to automobiles
on a HT site. What more can I say?:sleep:

One more little thing, I have a variety of albums (diamond dogs, gill scott heron, honkey
chateu) that I bought NEW in the 70's, and have had more turntables than you can beleive,
I think I know a little about their sonic qualities, and while I still enjoy listening to my records, they have about 50% of the dynamic range, wow and flutter, and pops and scratches
no matter how meticulously you clean them, they just dont sound as good as CD or SACD,
and if so called "audiophiles" want to claim so then thats their credibility, but I am always being lumped into that group, and it gets old.
Its really funny that you claim I dont "know much" about this stuff when I built a
three stage FET amp during my third year of electronics class, IN 1975.
Way before most on this site were more than a wet spot on their mothers side of the bed.
You may not like what I have to say but if you live long enough you will find that most,
not all but most is true. A bit unpleasant but true.
Especially in the case of old rich, there will always be a market for DLP front projectors
but the "microprojection" form factor is doomed, just no market for it.
Rant and rave all you want rich, but your company will take a hit on these
As for having no idea about tube amps, when I was working on TVsets most still had
tubes.
Most "high end " tube amps are based on the single end triode, that was basically
obsolete in 1934, the emitters are powered by a heater circuit that is basically like having
a space heater in your gear. That "tube" sound you and other love is harmonic distortion
(at least 5% in most tube gear) If you like that sort of thing fine, but please dont say
I am "pissing people off because I dont know what I am talking about.
Seems like I am pissing people off because I DO know what I am talking about.
In time maybe a few will come to understand what I was trying to do on this site, after they think about it for awhile, but I think it best that all of you sit around and chat about
such things a "video vs audio" (or apples vs oranges?) for now:hand:

What I think is that you are a regular here who is masquerading as a pixel. Some of what you say is based on truth but then you go off on tangents that are either nuts or a joke. My guess is that they are meant as jokes. No one is clueless enough to think that "GMichael" has anything to do with General Motors. So I conclude that it was a joke. Do I win a stuffed bunny for getting that right? By the way, my moniker was changed to a speaker about a week ago. Still not paying attention I see. And stop picking on Mater. He's cool.

I know lots of people who have been doing things for years and still don't know what they're doing. Again, some of what you say it truth, but then you slip into making statements that are crazy. Maybe you mean them to be jokes, but you can't blame people for thinking that you are clueless when you say such craziness at times. It's like you are on a kick to be as absurd as possible.

Also, outspoken and rude are not the same thing. If you are walking down the street and see a woman in a funky hat, to run up to her and tell her that she looks ridiculous is rude. If she comes up to you and asks how she looks and you tell her that you don't like her hat, that's outspoken. Telling people that they need to trade their $10,000 speakers in for a HTiB because it would sound better is rude, not outspoken. If you like running up to people and saying rude things, that's your business. But you should know that it is rude and not just outspoken.
But I think I'm wasting my typing. I think you already know all of this. I think that you are here to stir things up because you are board. I think you are saying things that you know are crazy in hopes of getting people to respond. That's cool. We could use a little color around the place. But who are you really? Are we meant to guess?
And if you are truly serious about everything you are saying, then, well, sorry. I think your hat is very nice.:rolleyes:

[GMichael]

You know we audiophile-types are hard to get along with....geesh we are a difficult breed. Maybe our social skills and etiquette are lacking because of too much listening to music???

Audiophile-types? Not me. I'm just an enthusiast who likes nice stuff. I don't even own a db meter. uh, yet.
Oh know! I'm going down the path! Somebody save me before I'm broke!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Nope. Still can't give you any chicklets. That thing must be broke.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'm just an enthusiast who likes nice stuff.
I like nice stuff too... I just wish she'd cooperate with me! :incazzato:

[GMichael]

I like nice stuff too... I just wish she'd cooperate with me! :incazzato:

Have you tried giving her nice stuff? Oh wait! Please don't answer that.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I found this post by Kex while reading an old debate about moderation here:

When a subjectivist takes every opportunity he can to promote his favorite gear, it's just sharing opinion, an objectivist promotes his belief and you condemn him.
While I agree, the Mtrycrafts of the world seem to exist for the sole purpose of replying to threads and starting debate on the same old topic, there are those who can exist in both camps at the same time. I still believe we're better off dealing with the people issues, and allowing all points of view to be made, considered, and discussed.
If a new mtrycraft emerges, it'll be obvious really quick, and should be easy to deal with. Besides, did anyone really pay much attention to him anyway?

Lot of his posts are prototypical flame bait, and it would not surprise me if he's a reincarnation of any number of past muckrakers who've passed through these parts.
Things that make you go Hmmm...

<!-- / message -->

[GMichael]

I found this post by Kex while reading an old debate about moderation here:


Things that make you go Hmmm...

<!-- / message -->

Mtrycrafts frequents another site that I visit. He doesn't hold back when it comes to disagreeing with me (or anyone else for that matter).
And Pix hasn't really gone after me, even though I've given him the opportunity on several occasions. My theory is that it's someone I get along with or he'd fight with me more.

All his posts come in the middle of the night. So he's either from another country or works the night shift.

[Mr Peabody]

You know Pix I've had a turntable since the late 70's and if I had never heard a good turntable, I'd be agreeing with you. Luckily, my town has a high end shop and I borrowed a Rega from them. That was an amazing thing, my vinyl never sounded so good. It's a fact that the dynamic range won't equal a CD player but with a good piece of vinyl and the right cartridge the sound can be nearly as quiet. I don't really hold a hard line one way or the other as far as which is better but I wouldn't get rid of either one. The reason I borrowed the turntable is it was around the same time I started upgrading my system and I was seriously considering getting out of vinyl. When I heard what a good turntable can really do and weighed the fact that many of my albums hadn't been put on CD or were expensive imports, I just upgraded my turntable and phono stage right along with everything else. Of course, everything was done in stages.

RGA would debate the virtues of SET's with you. My gear and most higher power tube amps are an ultralinear design. There's been improvements in tube gear over the years, you should reserve judgement. I'm not an EE but the distortion people try to lay on tube gear is a different type than harmonic. I believe it is 3rd order distortion or some such. But harmonic distortion is very evident to my ears and I wouldn't sink thousands of dollars into an amp that would let me hear distortion. My CJ is not the power house my Krell is, so the CJ does have it's limit. I just have to know my gear and not go there.

I don't hold back my opinions on gear either. Anyone who pays attention to me, aside from needing therapy, will notice I'm not partial to Bose, Klipsch, Yamaha and others too numerous to mention. But, if some one says they like that gear, I respect that. And, there has been times in certain circumstances I actually recommended those brands because they met a person's need. It may not always show but I don't want anyone to feel bad or inferior because they use a brand I don't like. If they've done their research/listening and that's what they prefer, or the best in what they have for a budget, then they should be confident in themselves. Because at the end of the day it's them that listen to it, not me. If I do voice my opinion on gear though, one way or the other, it will be from my personal experience or I will say different in my post.

Why are all of your posts in the wee morning hours?

[pixelthis]

You know Pix I've had a turntable since the late 70's and if I had never heard a good turntable, I'd be agreeing with you. Luckily, my town has a high end shop and I borrowed a Rega from them. That was an amazing thing, my vinyl never sounded so good. It's a fact that the dynamic range won't equal a CD player but with a good piece of vinyl and the right cartridge the sound can be nearly as quiet. I don't really hold a hard line one way or the other as far as which is better but I wouldn't get rid of either one. The reason I borrowed the turntable is it was around the same time I started upgrading my system and I was seriously considering getting out of vinyl. When I heard what a good turntable can really do and weighed the fact that many of my albums hadn't been put on CD or were expensive imports, I just upgraded my turntable and phono stage right along with everything else. Of course, everything was done in stages.

RGA would debate the virtues of SET's with you. My gear and most higher power tube amps are an ultralinear design. There's been improvements in tube gear over the years, you should reserve judgement. I'm not an EE but the distortion people try to lay on tube gear is a different type than harmonic. I believe it is 3rd order distortion or some such. But harmonic distortion is very evident to my ears and I wouldn't sink thousands of dollars into an amp that would let me hear distortion. My CJ is not the power house my Krell is, so the CJ does have it's limit. I just have to know my gear and not go there.

I don't hold back my opinions on gear either. Anyone who pays attention to me, aside from needing therapy, will notice I'm not partial to Bose, Klipsch, Yamaha and others too numerous to mention. But, if some one says they like that gear, I respect that. And, there has been times in certain circumstances I actually recommended those brands because they met a person's need. It may not always show but I don't want anyone to feel bad or inferior because they use a brand I don't like. If they've done their research/listening and that's what they prefer, or the best in what they have for a budget, then they should be confident in themselves. Because at the end of the day it's them that listen to it, not me. If I do voice my opinion on gear though, one way or the other, it will be from my personal experience or I will say different in my post.

Why are all of your posts in the wee morning hours?

I come home, eat, watch the tube, er PANEL, and flip it over to RGB and surf awhile,
check out a few haunts, come here and throw some opinions out...
This used to be a resource of reviews for gear I was thinking of buying, and I love the gallery section, got a lot of good ideas.
And I have posted quite a few reviews, under the moniker moviedog.
Glad you're not too pissed gm, you seem like an okay guy....seem.
Can't seem to get away from this place. Anywho, I have listened to scads of turntables,
and scads of tube amps, and turntables have their place, I have two at the moment,
both vintage technics, they actually used to make some decent gear.
But if a turntable and tuber type you have to understand something, both got their start
in the eighties, a few brillant types thought, well, if turntables, then maybe tubes.
the fad got so prevalent that some were saying "what next, the gramophone"?
And then some guy put out a high end gramophone type machine
And this is a reaction to digital audio, just like painters stopped focusing on realism
when photography started, so audiophiles started in with the retro stuff to distingwise
themselves.
In the seventies NOBODY talked about tubes, there were some, but the FET transtistor was king, seems to me like a regression of sorts, this return to tubes.
It will pass, in any event.
I guess what really irritates me is this idea that I am a know nothing, true my skills
at electronics have become a bit dated, but I have been playing with this stuff for quite
awhile, surely you dont think I have learned NOTHING in four decades?

Sure there is a place for turntables, but they have limitations is all I am saying, and they are the past. Dont like the redbook? Then how about lossless formats like Ape, flac,
MLP, true a lot of those came from CD, but they still sound great.
Tech has surpassed the CD and eventually the turntable will die.
Pioneer is coming out with a reel to reel, super high fidelity, now that is exciting
And tubes? their measured distortion is always in the audible range, they produce excess
heat, dont last long, require heater circuits that have all sorts of problems,
the people at bell labs that won the nobel for replacing them got that award for a reason,
like tube sound? It can (and is) being reproduced electronically, every cheap guitar amp
has a switch for it, and its on a lot of high end gear as well.
And paradigm (or whatever) speakers STILL sound like crap.
Gm you need to understand that insulting a person IS RUDE, but saying bad things about equipment isnt, because equipment doesnt have feelings.
Nobody should be connected so emotionally to equipment that they are insulted
when ITS insulted. :5:

[PeruvianSkies]

Sounds like everyone can hug now.

[GMichael]

I come home, eat, watch the tube, er PANEL, and flip it over to RGB and surf awhile,
check out a few haunts, come here and throw some opinions out...
This used to be a resource of reviews for gear I was thinking of buying, and I love the gallery section, got a lot of good ideas.
And I have posted quite a few reviews, under the moniker moviedog.
Glad you're not too pissed gm, you seem like an okay guy....seem.
Can't seem to get away from this place. Anywho, I have listened to scads of turntables,
and scads of tube amps, and turntables have their place, I have two at the moment,
both vintage technics, they actually used to make some decent gear.
But if a turntable and tuber type you have to understand something, both got their start
in the eighties, a few brillant types thought, well, if turntables, then maybe tubes.
the fad got so prevalent that some were saying "what next, the gramophone"?
And then some guy put out a high end gramophone type machine
And this is a reaction to digital audio, just like painters stopped focusing on realism
when photography started, so audiophiles started in with the retro stuff to distingwise
themselves.
In the seventies NOBODY talked about tubes, there were some, but the FET transtistor was king, seems to me like a regression of sorts, this return to tubes.
It will pass, in any event.
I guess what really irritates me is this idea that I am a know nothing, true my skills
at electronics have become a bit dated, but I have been playing with this stuff for quite
awhile, surely you dont think I have learned NOTHING in four decades?

Sure there is a place for turntables, but they have limitations is all I am saying, and they are the past. Dont like the redbook? Then how about lossless formats like Ape, flac,
MLP, true a lot of those came from CD, but they still sound great.
Tech has surpassed the CD and eventually the turntable will die.
Pioneer is coming out with a reel to reel, super high fidelity, now that is exciting
And tubes? their measured distortion is always in the audible range, they produce excess
heat, dont last long, require heater circuits that have all sorts of problems,
the people at bell labs that won the nobel for replacing them got that award for a reason,
like tube sound? It can (and is) being reproduced electronically, every cheap guitar amp
has a switch for it, and its on a lot of high end gear as well.
And paradigm (or whatever) speakers STILL sound like crap.
Gm you need to understand that insulting a person IS RUDE, but saying bad things about equipment isnt, because equipment doesnt have feelings.
Nobody should be connected so emotionally to equipment that they are insulted
when ITS insulted. :5:

Glad you're coming around. A little.

[Mr Peabody]

I didn't say you didn't know anything but you are out of touch and off base where tubes are concerned. Good luck to Pioneer, I know Reel to Reel sounded good and there Super whatever may sound fabulous but talk about bringing back a dead format. Even though it sounds good, who would mess with it now?

[PeruvianSkies]

I didn't say you didn't know anything but you are out of touch and off base where tubes are concerned. Good luck to Pioneer, I know Reel to Reel sounded good and there Super whatever may sound fabulous but talk about bringing back a dead format. Even though it sounds good, who would mess with it now?

Reel to reel is dead? Dang, I was hoping to get one installed in my car. Shucks.

[GMichael]

Reel to reel is dead? Dang, I was hoping to get one installed in my car. Shucks.

Nice IPOD you have in your car. A little big isn't it?

[Rich-n-Texas]

My AKAI M9's for sale. Anybody want to buy it?

[pixelthis]

I didn't say you didn't know anything but you are out of touch and off base where tubes are concerned. Good luck to Pioneer, I know Reel to Reel sounded good and there Super whatever may sound fabulous but talk about bringing back a dead format. Even though it sounds good, who would mess with it now?
The Idea is a totally analog format with decent dynamic range, no shortcomings of turntables, etc.
This wouldn't be you're daddys reel to reel, with new types of tape formats and dubs from studio masters it would trump the turntable on analog sound, with none of the "jitter"
and the like that bothers "audiophiles so much.
They didnt buy into SACD and DVDAUDIO because they are both digital, after all.
But there is NOTHING that has ever beat a master tape, NOTHING.
Imagine one in your house:crazy:

[PeruvianSkies]

...I remember when they used this same display for Beta.

[pixelthis]

...I remember when they used this same display for Beta.
FUNNY you should say that , because for all of its tech superiority Beta lost out because it could only record one and a half hours, capacity in other words.
AND the extra capacity is what makes Blu-ray the "winner" of this format war, according to those who know.
Seems like at least Sony has learned from its mistakes:1: