new system - Help!!!

[Justin Carnecky]

Hi

I want to start fresh on my home theater system and have been researching for a number of months.

Only problem is, I have no idea what equipment to buy. Every shop I visit tries to push their particular brands onto me, insisting that theirs is the best (i can tell by listening to certain systems which speakers i like, but it is not as easy for amplifiers).

The original system I had in mind was an Onkyo TX-DS989 Amp/receiver, with a set of B&W 703 speakers (and B&W sub and surrounds to be selected), along with a DVD (Yet to be chosen).

During the months of research that I have been doing, I must have have changed my mind a dozen times. My Amp list now consists of a choice of the following:

Onkyo TX-DS989
Pioneer VSA-AX10i (great amp but no support from Pioneer in S.A)
Denon AVC-A1SR
Yamaha (AZ1 or AZ9 (probably too pricey though))

Pleeeeaase help!! Which amp is outright the best. Is there a better amp not on my list (within the same price range). I unfortunately do not understand the technical lino too well, but it seems that the Yamaha has the most advanced electronics and processing power, whereas the Pioneer is rated as best all rounder, and Denon is rated best for 'oomph'. However, The Yamaha AZ1 seems to be a bit "old" now as the AZ9 is becoming the new flagship model? Am I correct? And the AZ9 may be too expensive consdering the anwser to the following :

Another important question: The last Hi-fi shop I was at advised that I purchase an Onkyo integra amp (cheaper model - about 120W p/c) and use a seperate amplifier for the fronts and center (a primare A30.3 was suggested). The reasoning behind this was simply that (as the salesman put it): "amplifiers outputs are tested/rated with only one channel running. By running all 6/7/8 channels the power to each channel is lessened somewhat. This is easily demonstrated by taking the amplifiers power consumption (minus a percentage for loss due to heat etc) and dividing it by the total number of output channels - you will never arrive at the same output as the amp is rated. And we all know that power cannot be 'created'. An Amp cannot push out more power then it is consuming". This does seem to make sense to me. However, it is rarely (if ever) the case that ALL 6/7/8 channels are being used fully at the same time. :confused:

Is this really the case, or was I just being duped into purchasing an extra amp? If not, I was considering buying one of the AV amps above and using a power amp to drive at least the 3 front speakers. A rotel RMB-1095 would be great (and it would drive 5 speakers), but then I get the feeling that most of the money I am spending on the AV is wasted, as I will not even be using the amplification it provides.

I really really need help on this one As i am totally confused. In my case, more research is just adding to the confusion.

And I have not even reached the speaker selection phase of the purchase yet.

In total, I can probably spend about $10000 on my system (Amp, speakers and DVD/CD player). THis is a major huge big of money for a South African, as the rand is pretty weak against the dollar, so I really want to make sure I spend it wisely.

Any suggestions?

Please help
Justin

[woodman]

Justin:
You DO need help - and lots of it. Are you talking about spending $10K in U.S. dollars? I know nothing about currency exchange rates, especially those involving South African money. I also know nothing about the pricing of electronics in your part of the world, and how they compare with U.S. prices. Having said all of that, let me try and help you.

You're likely to get all sorts of well-intentioned (but misguided) advice from all directions, especially from "salesmen" in stores - intent on selling you things to fatten THEIR wallets (and deplete yours). The advice you got from one of those that you cited is a classic example. You do NOT need to buy an additional amplifier to drive your front main speakers, provided of course that you don't choose speakers that are extremely difficult to drive (most speakers don't fall into that category). Also, you need to get an understanding of the relationship between loudspeakers and amplifier power. The "specs" for speakers include what's called a sensitivity rating, which tells us how loud a sound will be produced by ONE watt of power at a distance of one meter in front of the speaker. The volume (loudness) will of course decrease as the distance from the speaker to your ears increases, but it gives you an idea of just how LITTLE the power demands of speakers actually are.

As to your choice of an amplifier/receiver, if you get a Yamaha you'll get reliability along with excellent sound quality. Living in a part of the world where competent electronic servicing is likely to be very difficult if not downright impossible to find, I cannot stress enough the importance of reliability in your choosing of a receiver. Those that try to tell you that you should choose brand "X" because it "sounds better" simply don't know what they're talking about. The difference in actual sound quality between ANY receivers or any other combination of "separates" is so slight, subtle, slim, small, and inconsequential as to not be meaningful enough to base a buying decision upon IMO. I've spent a lifetime working on these products as a engineering tech, and am also a musician so if there was indeed something that you might buy that would sound enough better to make it worthwhile to spend the extra cash for, I'd certainly say so - but there simply isn't!

As to your choice of speakers, that's strictly a personal subjective choice that you'll have to make for yourself. My only comment or advice on that subject is - don't sacrifice on the receiver in order to spend more on the speakers. Some people insist that the majority of any budget be spent on the speakers - even if that means "settling" for a cheaper receiver or amplifier. This POV makes absolutely no sense whatever ... don't listen to such inane advice.

In closing, one more bit of advice ... don't let anyone "con" you into spending some arbitrary percentage of your budget on speaker wires and/or interconnects. It's one horrific scam that's reaching epidemic proportions in audio today.

Hope all of this will prove helpful to you -

[Bryan]

1. What size room (dimensions, preferably in feet but meters is fine) are we talking about here? Any openings into other rooms? If so, what size are they?

2. No need to buy the latest and greatest receiver out there if you have a room that is 20L x 16'W x 8'H. Do not get caught up in watts or DSP modes. After all, how many of them will you actually use? Wattage can be overrated but stick to one of the better brands, such as the Pioneer Elite, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc. Keep in mind what all will be connected to it. If you have relatively few connections than a flagship receiver is unnecessary. You also may be able to find a nice used 5 channel Rotel amp for cheap. If so, look at a preamp, such as the Outlaw (http://www.outlawaudio.com) 950.

3. The subwoofer will be another major expense. Buy quality. How much you spend on a sub is dictated by your room size and how much you love deep clean bass.

4. Agree wholeheartedly with woodman about cables. Disagree with him about the speakers but not about listening to them to see what sound you like. If this is your first real setup, I would go with the better speakers and subwoofer and a lesser receiver. The downside is excellent speakers have a tendency to show how good or bad the source gear is. The plus side is the sound will improve as you improve your source gear. I would stick to this general rule especially if your budget is $2,000US or less. If your budget is $10,000US toss that rule out the window.

5. Calibrate the gear! Whatever you end up with, pay the $100 for the analog SPL meter and calibration dvd. That is among the best investment you can make.

[Justin Carnecky]

Justin:
You DO need help - and lots of it. Are you talking about spending $10K in U.S. dollars? I know nothing about currency exchange rates, especially those involving South African money. I also know nothing about the pricing of electronics in your part of the world, and how they compare with U.S. prices. Having said all of that, let me try and help you.

You're likely to get all sorts of well-intentioned (but misguided) advice from all directions, especially from "salesmen" in stores - intent on selling you things to fatten THEIR wallets (and deplete yours). The advice you got from one of those that you cited is a classic example. You do NOT need to buy an additional amplifier to drive your front main speakers, provided of course that you don't choose speakers that are extremely difficult to drive (most speakers don't fall into that category). Also, you need to get an understanding of the relationship between loudspeakers and amplifier power. The "specs" for speakers include what's called a sensitivity rating, which tells us how loud a sound will be produced by ONE watt of power at a distance of one meter in front of the speaker. The volume (loudness) will of course decrease as the distance from the speaker to your ears increases, but it gives you an idea of just how LITTLE the power demands of speakers actually are.

As to your choice of an amplifier/receiver, if you get a Yamaha you'll get reliability along with excellent sound quality. Living in a part of the world where competent electronic servicing is likely to be very difficult if not downright impossible to find, I cannot stress enough the importance of reliability in your choosing of a receiver. Those that try to tell you that you should choose brand "X" because it "sounds better" simply don't know what they're talking about. The difference in actual sound quality between ANY receivers or any other combination of "separates" is so slight, subtle, slim, small, and inconsequential as to not be meaningful enough to base a buying decision upon IMO. I've spent a lifetime working on these products as a engineering tech, and am also a musician so if there was indeed something that you might buy that would sound enough better to make it worthwhile to spend the extra cash for, I'd certainly say so - but there simply isn't!

As to your choice of speakers, that's strictly a personal subjective choice that you'll have to make for yourself. My only comment or advice on that subject is - don't sacrifice on the receiver in order to spend more on the speakers. Some people insist that the majority of any budget be spent on the speakers - even if that means "settling" for a cheaper receiver or amplifier. This POV makes absolutely no sense whatever ... don't listen to such inane advice.

In closing, one more bit of advice ... don't let anyone "con" you into spending some arbitrary percentage of your budget on speaker wires and/or interconnects. It's one horrific scam that's reaching epidemic proportions in audio today.

Hope all of this will prove helpful to you -


Hey - ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC advice.

I never really understood exactly how the sensitivity of speakers worked (And i could not find any material to explain it). You have nailed it on the head for me.

Just an idea of excange rates etc. In south Africa the Rand currency fluctuates a lot, but on average it will cost about R7.00 for one US dollar. We also have heavy duties on 'luxury' items such as high end Hi-fi. This translates into extremely inflated prices for ANY hi-equipment. For example, the flagship Onkyo TX-DS989 with eliminate about 90% of my $10k budget. Yep, the amp costs about R60000.00. The newest Yamaha (Z9) will be even more than my entire budget. This is why I am purchasing all my kit from Europe/ Singapore (luckily I work in Europe/Singapore and fly back home every couple of weeks). I can make use of a few 'loopholes' to get the stuff into South Africa without paying too much in duties for it (as long as i am only bringing in one system and not mass-importing, and I can ensure that the system is 'used').

So what amp would you suggest? I will be wanting to use as many channels as I can.

I also posted the same query under 'Amps' and had a response that was quite the opposite to yours. It was suggested that I do in fact buy another amplifier!!. Perhaps the best of both worlds / compromise would be best for me. I.e. instead of buying an all-in-one AV receiver, it may be better to get a really good name pre-power combination. So I lose out on all the extra gimmicks (various sound modes etc) that the yamahas/pioneers of the world offer, but I will get true solid multi channel power. What do you think? Something like the Rotel pre-power combo maybe? Or primare?

Thanks again for the great input.

Regards
Justin

[Justin Carnecky]

1. What size room (dimensions, preferably in feet but meters is fine) are we talking about here? Any openings into other rooms? If so, what size are they?

2. No need to buy the latest and greatest receiver out there if you have a room that is 20L x 16'W x 8'H. Do not get caught up in watts or DSP modes. After all, how many of them will you actually use? Wattage can be overrated but stick to one of the better brands, such as the Pioneer Elite, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc. Keep in mind what all will be connected to it. If you have relatively few connections than a flagship receiver is unnecessary. You also may be able to find a nice used 5 channel Rotel amp for cheap. If so, look at a preamp, such as the Outlaw (http://www.outlawaudio.com) 950.

3. The subwoofer will be another major expense. Buy quality. How much you spend on a sub is dictated by your room size and how much you love deep clean bass.

4. Agree wholeheartedly with woodman about cables. Disagree with him about the speakers but not about listening to them to see what sound you like. If this is your first real setup, I would go with the better speakers and subwoofer and a lesser receiver. The downside is excellent speakers have a tendency to show how good or bad the source gear is. The plus side is the sound will improve as you improve your source gear. I would stick to this general rule especially if your budget is $2,000US or less. If your budget is $10,000US toss that rule out the window.

5. Calibrate the gear! Whatever you end up with, pay the $100 for the analog SPL meter and calibration dvd. That is among the best investment you can make.

Hi Bryan.

Thanks for the reply.Great advice.

My room will be about (in feet) 22L x 15W x 8.5H. It will only have one door (the room is being built specifically for this purpose).

I am going to try and combine the best of everyones input when choosing my system. I think that I have been going about it the wrong way around (maybe). As advised by another regular, I should probably be choosing speakers first based on how they sound and then add an amp later. I do want fairly good speakers, but I think for now I would be happier with a really good amp. My opinion is that if my speakers are too good, they will eat up too much of my budget, and might show the flaws in the [cheaper] amp to such an extent that the system will sound pretty dirty. What do you reckon?

I am starting to lean towards the pre-power combo anyway. I think for a fairly good price (just over half the budget) I could get a killer pre-power combo. It may not have all the bells and whistles that the major flagships (denon/onkyo etc) have, but it will definitely give them a run for their money when it comes to sound quality. Opinion?

Regards
Justin

[F1]

...... This is why I am purchasing all my kit from Europe/ Singapore (luckily I work in Europe/Singapore and fly back home every couple of weeks). ......
So what amp would you suggest? I

The best advice is to try yourself. If you go to Singapore, go to "The Adelphi" near City Hall MRT if you haven't known this place yet. You can try all sort of brands under one roof there. The price is competitive, too; better than European price methink. Good luck.

[Bryan]

So it looks like you have a room of 2,805 cubic feet. Either the HSU (http://www.hsuresearch.com) VTF-2 ($450) or VTF-3 ($700) should work wonderfully in it.

With any system there are compromises. For example, you may get the best pre/pro combination out there but how good will it sound with HTiB (home theater in a box) speakers? Conversely, you may get the best speakers but they will not sound good if they are driven by a Kenwood entry level receiver. As your system grows and evolves know you are more likely to replace the receiver/preamp than either the speakers/sub or amp. Best thing to do here, IMO, is to get a balanced system. However, if you will be listening to a lot of music on this system than you may want to put a lot more money into your mains and an additional two channel amplifier than into a receiver. If it is strictly for HT, a balanced system would be best.

As an example, my room size (cubic feet) is roughly the same as yours. My system consists of:

nOrh (http://www.norh.com) ceramic 4.0 center and surrounds
nOrh wood 5.1 mains (prefer warmer sound of the wood over the ceramic)
nOrh Le Amps (powers mains)
SVS (http://www.svsubwoofers.com) 20-39CS
Samson S700 (powers above sub)
Outlaw (http://www.outlawaudio.com) 1050

Basically I spent around $2,500US (give or take) for that system. Whatever you do buy quality gear up front as that will save you a ton of money later on. Just something to think about. Definately listen to the various speakers out there to get an idea of what you like.

[topspeed]

I'd definitely go the separates direction with a separate pre/pro and amp. If you go with the 703's, you'll find they respond better to quality amplification. The difference between receiver amps and dedicated amps w/ discrete and usually massive power supplies is apparent when paired with a revealing speaker like the B&W's. Conversely, I'd advise against sacrificing speaker quality for amps. The differences between good and great speakers is easy to hear. The differences between amps is much more subtle and only audible when hooked up to the right equipment. The difference is there however, make no mistake. Hi-fi is like putting on prescription lenses for the first time: you had no idea what you were missing until you opened your eyes (or ears).

I would think the determining factor in your choice would be what percentage of the time you'll be listening to music vs. watching movies. If you are more into music than movies, I'd go separates as you won't need the the "bells and whistles" anyway. If movies are your bag, a receiver will be more than adequate and probably save you some money.

Good luck and enjoy the journey.

[Geoffcin]

Hi-fi is like putting on prescription lenses for the first time: you had no idea what you were missing until you opened your eyes (or ears).


I'm definitely going to quote you on this one!