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Rich-n-Texas
05-21-2007, 11:26 AM
I've got my living room back now so I've resumed my ideal HT setup quest and I've got a lot of basic questions.

For starters, where should I have the volume control on the subwoofer set to? I'm thinking mid way and then use the receiver's level setting to control volume, no? (I have this same dilemma with my computer speakers and I never know what the general rule of thumb is.) I have the sub's crossover set to 60Hz with the same setting at the receiver, and the speaker selection at the receiver set to small speakers.

Also, my center channel right now unfortunately has to sit inside the TV stand (bad), about 6" above the floor (bad). I don't know where the EQ settings should be but I've got all frequencies set to 0 (bad). The manual says to adjust the settings so the CC has similar tonal qualities to the front L & R, but my problem is I have high frequency loss in my left ear and I'm not able to acheive what sounds like equal tone across the... well, inverted arc (I realize my brain compensates for this to a certain extent). What would be optimum for this current arrangement. I've ordered what I think will be a decent short-term solution to get the CC above the TV with a wall-mount bracket from Parts Express, but because the distance of the TV from the wall is 21", I'm probably going to have to mount it pretty high then tilt it towards the sweet spot in my room. That's a different subject for another time though. Thanks.

musicman1999
05-21-2007, 11:58 AM
There is nothing wrong with having your center speaker 6 inches off the floor,in fact that should be better than the other alternative that you describe.Mine sits about 8 inches off the ground and i get great results.However if it inside a case do two things,first make sure that it is all the way to the front of the shelf and second tilt it upwards towards the seating position.A dedicated stand on the floor,like i have would be a better solution than mounting it up high.
With your sub question,there is no rule of thumb.I am not familiar with Yamaha recievers but bass levels have as much to do with your room as anything else.Make sure the sub is in the right spot first,then use trial and error with your settings.

bill

pixelthis
05-21-2007, 10:39 PM
GET thee to a radio shack and get a level meter, follow the instructions and set all of your speakers at 70 db.
And why cant you mount your CC on your set?
If its front ported being inside a cabinet wont be bad, but I beleive B&w rear port their speakers. You can get a marble planter stand or a CC stand (they make those), its not really a problem.
You havta set your sub vol by ear, turn it up until it distorts, some like a remote vol on sub so they can turn up bass on low bass stuff, and down on high bass stuff, but I think if its set right it will sound right, I had a B&w "mini" sub, great on music but stank on video

Rich-n-Texas
05-22-2007, 05:56 AM
GET thee to a radio shack and get a level meter, follow the instructions and set all of your speakers at 70 db.
I have one here at work that I'm going to use soon. The 1,000,000 times asked question though is... "what's the best test DVD" :o


And why cant you mount your CC on your set?
I guess I'm just anal about anything touching or hanging on my new investment. This wall mount bracket I ordered probably won't project far out enough to make it flush with the TV screen (I know, I should've asked before I ordered it) so if it doesn't, I'll follow yours and other's advice and buy something that sits in front of the TV stand. I've seen here in the pictures section where people put their CC in front of their TV stand; it seems out of place to me but I'll look for something that fits with the "Traditional" theme I'm applying to the HT room.

If its front ported being inside a cabinet wont be bad, but I beleive B&w rear port their speakers. You can get a marble planter stand or a CC stand (they make those), its not really a problem.
The CC IS front ported, so I guess the advice I read for someone who had a similar dilema didn't really apply to front-ported speakers.


You havta set your sub vol by ear, turn it up until it distorts, some like a remote vol on sub so they can turn up bass on low bass stuff, and down on high bass stuff, but I think if its set right it will sound right, I had a B&w "mini" sub, great on music but stank on video

LOL. This sub is definately no mini. The suggestion you gave me in the other thread about having a friend move it around... none of my friends are strong enough 'cause they're all girls!!! :ihih:

GMichael
05-22-2007, 06:10 AM
LOL. This sub is definately no mini. The suggestion you gave me in the other thread about having a friend move it around... none of my friends are strong enough 'cause they're all girls!!! :ihih:

Another way is to put the sub where you will be sitting. Then you can crawl around the room to where it sounds best. Then put the sub there. This way you only have to move it twice.

Rich-n-Texas
05-22-2007, 06:23 AM
You're just making fun of me GM. I'll let the girls crawl around on their hands and knees.

L.J.
05-22-2007, 06:50 AM
I 2nd the use of an SPL meter and you can use the test tones generated by your AVR. You should get some pretty decent results.

If you do decide to go up top with your CC, I picked up a set of these (http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/acoustics/auralex-mopads-monitor-isolation) for $20 and was able to get a sweet angle toward the SS, plus they look very nice too. Nothing else would work and my CC would keep slowing sliding foward :eek:

I believe they also can be used to angle upward also.

GMichael
05-22-2007, 07:00 AM
You're just making fun of me GM. I'll let the girls crawl around on their hands and knees.
Huh? Now now. Not all of my posts are jokes. Just 99.9% of them. But I meant what I said this time. It's a trick that I've seen others suggest over the years. But I do like your idea of getting the girls to get down on all 4's. That's thinking with a head.

kexodusc
05-22-2007, 07:16 AM
I've got my living room back now so I've resumed my ideal HT setup quest and I've got a lot of basic questions.

For starters, where should I have the volume control on the subwoofer set to? I'm thinking mid way and then use the receiver's level setting to control volume, no? (I have this same dilemma with my computer speakers and I never know what the general rule of thumb is.) I have the sub's crossover set to 60Hz with the same setting at the receiver, and the speaker selection at the receiver set to small speakers.

I'd set the receiver at "0" an adjust the plate amp dial accordingly...simply because I trust the plate amps gain more than the voltage strength from some receivers, especially if more than 1 sub is connected, but really I doubt it matters much. I just use the receiver LFE volume setting to make quick minor adjustments


Also, my center channel right now unfortunately has to sit inside the TV stand (bad), about 6" above the floor (bad). I don't know where the EQ settings should be but I've got all frequencies set to 0 (bad). The manual says to adjust the settings so the CC has similar tonal qualities to the front L & R, but my problem is I have high frequency loss in my left ear and I'm not able to acheive what sounds like equal tone across the... well, inverted arc (I realize my brain compensates for this to a certain extent). What would be optimum for this current arrangement. I've ordered what I think will be a decent short-term solution to get the CC above the TV with a wall-mount bracket from Parts Express, but because the distance of the TV from the wall is 21", I'm probably going to have to mount it pretty high then tilt it towards the sweet spot in my room. That's a different subject for another time though. Thanks.

I'd probably leave the CC in the TV stand 6" off the floor (not as bad as you think), but try to make the front of the speaker at least flush with front of the TV screen (so it's not "further behind than the front of the screen). Most CC's assume immediate placement next to a TV or wall anyway so I dont' think you'll suffer much sound quality loss...maybe use some rubber bumpers to "tilt" the front of the speaker up so it's aiming at you?

As for EQ'ing. I dunno, just experiment I guess if you don't have an "auto-eq" setup. Or leave it at zero just accept it, how bad is it?

musicman1999
05-22-2007, 01:23 PM
GMichael is right,as usual,that is the best way to determine the prime location for your sub.Location is key with getting good clean bass.Try that test you will be suprised,i was first time i tried it.

bill

pixelthis
05-23-2007, 09:23 PM
Huh? Now now. Not all of my posts are jokes. Just 99.9% of them. But I meant what I said this time. It's a trick that I've seen others suggest over the years. But I do like your idea of getting the girls to get down on all 4's. That's thinking with a head.
100% are jokes, trust me:cornut:
I once got a "floating shelf" at home depot, a black slab that sticks out from the wall,
set my cc above my old panny with it, loked great if not the optimal placement:5:

Rich-n-Texas
05-26-2007, 01:06 PM
Well, as I suspected, the wall-mount thingy comes up short (by 6 inches), so I'll consider some of the suggestions here and also look for a stand while I'm furniture shopping. Thanks all.

pixelthis
05-28-2007, 02:31 AM
STAND???
The one you have now is really nice, if it aint broke dont fix it.
Concentrate instead on finding someone who can put a "piano" finish on those delish
beemers of yours

Rich-n-Texas
05-28-2007, 02:10 PM
STAND???
The one you have now is really nice, if it aint broke dont fix it.
Concentrate instead on finding someone who can put a "piano" finish on those delish
beemers of yours

Maybe I should've said pedestal (Strictly for the CC) I know, just leave well enough alone right? But yeah, I really don't like the Black Ash finish on the speaker cabinets. In their production years the 804's were also offered in a Walnut finish and Rosewood, which I'll bet looked really great. But for now I've got bigger issues still to deal with.:(

Rich-n-Texas
06-27-2007, 04:37 PM
If you do decide to go up top with your CC, I picked up a set of these (http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/acoustics/auralex-mopads-monitor-isolation) for $20 and was able to get a sweet angle toward the SS, plus they look very nice too. Nothing else would work and my CC would keep slowing sliding foward :eek:

I believe they also can be used to angle upward also.
Well, I decided after some convincing here to keep the CC below the TV and it's now pointed upwards about 10" from the floor, propped up and out from under the top surface of the stand by a couple of shims. The bad thing is the speaker could fall off the shims at any time. I can't tell from the pictures of the MoPADS how they work. In the "Pros" column, it says they have variable pitch, which tells me they will be able to point the speaker, hopefully upwards. But they need to also provide stability due to the fact that the speaker will need to sit pretty far out off the vertically adjustable shelf it's sitting on. They have an expensive price tag IMO, but if they can accomplish this, I'd be willing to bite the bullet. Thoughts?

L.J.
06-27-2007, 05:55 PM
Well, I decided after some convincing here to keep the CC below the TV and it's now pointed upwards about 10" from the floor, propped up and out from under the top surface of the stand by a couple of shims. The bad thing is the speaker could fall off the shims at any time. I can't tell from the pictures of the MoPADS how they work. In the "Pros" column, it says they have variable pitch, which tells me they will be able to point the speaker, hopefully upwards. But they need to also provide stability due to the fact that the speaker will need to sit pretty far out off the vertically adjustable shelf it's sitting on. They have an expensive price tag IMO, but if they can accomplish this, I'd be willing to bite the bullet. Thoughts?

If your using these for your CC you only need 1 set (2 pads) for 19.99. I purchased mine from here (http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--AURMOPAD). The angle can be adjusted by using a second piece of foam that is used with each pad to acheive a higher angle. I assume the pads are mainly used for angleing downward, but I don't see any reason why they couldn't be used in reverse. My C-C3 is pretty big and would always slip foward no matter what I tried to angle it with because I needed such a steep angle. These worked perfect and they look nice. If your trying to install in a tight spot, be careful because the raise your CC 1.25" as stated in the review. Here's a side view pic.

Blue Meanie
06-27-2007, 06:06 PM
I have the sub's crossover set to 60Hz with the same setting at the receiver, and the speaker selection at the receiver set to small speakers.

The way I understand it, the sub's crossover should be set as high as possible, to remove it from the equation. Rely on the receiver's crossover.

Jeff

musicman1999
06-27-2007, 06:39 PM
Well, I decided after some convincing here to keep the CC below the TV and it's now pointed upwards about 10" from the floor, propped up and out from under the top surface of the stand by a couple of shims. The bad thing is the speaker could fall off the shims at any time. I can't tell from the pictures of the MoPADS how they work. In the "Pros" column, it says they have variable pitch, which tells me they will be able to point the speaker, hopefully upwards. But they need to also provide stability due to the fact that the speaker will need to sit pretty far out off the vertically adjustable shelf it's sitting on. They have an expensive price tag IMO, but if they can accomplish this, I'd be willing to bite the bullet. Thoughts?

What i did was buy a soft rubber ball of the proper size,cut it in half and use the halfs to prop up my center.The speaker is heavy so it compresses the rubber and sticks in place.
Cost about 3 bucks and 15 minutes time.

bill

Rich-n-Texas
06-27-2007, 07:07 PM
I'll post up a pic ASAP so I can show how far out on the shelf the speaker has to sit in order to clear the lip of the top shelf where the TV sits. I have pictures posted in the member gallery that might show what I'm talking about. The MoPADS' elevation wouldn't be a problem since I still have one set of holes left for the shelf to be adjusted down, but the rubber ball idea wouldn't work because I need to project the speaker out

Probably another case of me making things more complicated than they need to be, but that's me!

pixelthis
06-28-2007, 12:01 AM
I'll post up a pic ASAP so I can show how far out on the shelf the speaker has to sit in order to clear the lip of the top shelf where the TV sits. I have pictures posted in the member gallery that might show what I'm talking about. The MoPADS' elevation wouldn't be a problem since I still have one set of holes left for the shelf to be adjusted down, but the rubber ball idea wouldn't work because I need to project the speaker out

Probably another case of me making things more complicated than they need to be, but that's me!
I can understand why you wanna make things more complicated than nessesary, being a dlp fan:6:
Home depot has a floating shelf, uses two metal poles stuck to the studs, and the black
shelf has two holes in the back, will hold a CC pretty good, just drill a hole in it for the speaker wire.
It'll hold about fifty pounds or so, and dont worry about hearing loss in one ear, just set your levels from the listening postition and your set.
Worry about speaker placement isnt really warranted anymore, DD allows you to set seperate levels to compensate, unlike prologic plain where the backs shared a channel

L.J.
06-28-2007, 06:05 AM
Hey Rich, I edited my post and added a pic. I'm sure there may be cheaper solutions but these work great for my situation and was well worth the price.

Rich-n-Texas
06-28-2007, 06:21 AM
That makes the picture in my head crystal clear now. Yes, I don't see any reason either why they can't be used to tilt the CC up, and $20 bucks is pretty cheap so I'll get to it. They show on the SameDay site a weight limit of 100 lbs, so I'm assuming I'll be able to slide them forward some to get the tweeter clear of the top shelf overhang.

Rich-n-Texas
06-28-2007, 06:37 AM
I can understand why you wanna make things more complicated than nessesary, being a dlp fan:6:
I can always count on you can't I pix? :mad2:


Home depot has a floating shelf, uses two metal poles stuck to the studs, and the black
shelf has two holes in the back, will hold a CC pretty good, just drill a hole in it for the speaker wire.
It'll hold about fifty pounds or so, and dont worry about hearing loss in one ear, just set your levels from the listening postition and your set.
So now you're telling me to go back up top with the speaker? You guys already convinced me to leave it underneath and point it up. I already wasted ~$30. on a swivel stand that fastens to the wall, but like I said it didn't project the speaker far out enough to even it with the TV screen, so no more of that type of option.

pixelthis
06-29-2007, 12:23 AM
I can always count on you can't I pix? :mad2:

So now you're telling me to go back up top with the speaker? You guys already convinced me to leave it underneath and point it up. I already wasted ~$30. on a swivel stand that fastens to the wall, but like I said it didn't project the speaker far out enough to even it with the TV screen, so no more of that type of option.
I'm third behind death and taxes
Why is it important to get your CC even with your screen?
There are some that will tell you your CC needs to be even with your l+r's, your CC needs to be a certain way etc, and its just so much fiddle faddle when you can set your level to compensate.
If a spl meter reads 70db (dolby reference) from a certain channel it doesnt matter if the speaker is sitting on the moon, it should sound okay.
And imaging is gonna be a prob with you with hearing loss, anyway, somethimes a ear infection flares up and I lose stereo (or my lease, turning up one channel to compensate)
DD is awfully forgiving, a decent soundfield is not nearly so hard to produce as some would have you think

pixelthis
06-29-2007, 12:35 AM
OF course you want to point those tweeters in your general direction to get some of that great B&W imaging.
I've done some police work (no white collar stuff so dont worry) and you would be surprized to see hpw much changing your source object changes how the destination turns out. Raising your CC with a few coins (or lowering) can change the sweet spot
by several feet.
And if anybody paid 19.95 for that airconditioner foam, you got ripped, somebody cut it to order and is making a fortune:hand:

musicman1999
06-29-2007, 03:15 AM
The reason the center has to be even with the shelf,or stand that it rests on is to avoid reflections from that shelf or stand that it rests on.Setting the levels can't compensate for reflections of sound waves.There is far more to proper set up than setting the levels,proper placement is key to building a good soundstage.

bill

Rich-n-Texas
06-29-2007, 05:20 AM
It's not real easy to tell from this picture the lip that overhangs the TV stand's compartments, and I've since eliminated the glass speaker stand because it wouldn't allow me to point the CC, but my concern is getting the tweeter extended out past the decorative curved molding on the top shelf where the TV sits. The MoPADS were only $25. shipped, and if they don't work out I'll use them for one the rear surrounds and buy another set for the other one. I realize that ideally the CC should be even with the screen, which isn't possible in my case, but what I read here tells me that the face of the speaker cannot have any obstacles or reflection surfaces nearby, so that's why I'm trying to angle it and project it out from the opening in the TV stand. The fact that the MoPADS will raise it 1.25" won't be a concern because the glass stand used previously raised it the same distance and there was no problem with clearance then. The MoPADS will provide two benefits: point the CC at my ears (crippled though they may be) and de-couple it from the shelf.


http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/LFrontandCCposition3.jpg

L.J.
06-29-2007, 07:17 AM
OF course you want to point those tweeters in your general direction to get some of that great B&W imaging.
I've done some police work (no white collar stuff so dont worry) and you would be surprized to see hpw much changing your source object changes how the destination turns out. Raising your CC with a few coins (or lowering) can change the sweet spot
by several feet.
And if anybody paid 19.95 for that airconditioner foam, you got ripped, somebody cut it to order and is making a fortune:hand:

I'm sorry but spending $19.95 on a product that meets your needs is not getting ripped. My CC sits 3 ft above my mains. A few coins weren't gonna cut it. I have my CC angled exactly how I want it now and the decoupling is a added benefit. They look nice too. A thumbs up from wifee is always a good thing :prrr:

Rich-n-Texas
06-29-2007, 07:48 AM
:prrr:
Yeah. What he said! :biggrin5:

pixelthis
06-30-2007, 12:44 AM
Where to begin...
FIRST OFF what "reflections" are you talking about? Bass is omnidirectional anyway
and most will come out of your sub, the mid and upper freks will clear a few inches of shelf without hitting it at all, this is basically a non problem.
And even a slightchange of the direction of a tweeter can change the sweet spot since they are directional to a great degree, but proper setting of levels will compensate
for misaligned speakers somewhat.
As for paying 20 bucks or so for something you can do for free... Well, its your money but Personally I think you'd get a lot more sastifaction just mailing it to me.
I'll send you some shims to put under your speaker and we'll both be better off.
I'll even wrap em in airconditioner foam for ya.
My neighbors got a window unit and is going outta town for a few days....:ciappa:

kexodusc
06-30-2007, 03:50 AM
The reason the center has to be even with the shelf,or stand that it rests on is to avoid reflections from that shelf or stand that it rests on.Setting the levels can't compensate for reflections of sound waves.There is far more to proper set up than setting the levels,proper placement is key to building a good soundstage.

bill

This is good advice. Despite what some would believe, frequencies below 1000 Hz or so will "wrap" around the speaker. They don't just shoot straight forward.

The bad part about the reflections caused when the speaker isn't even, is that they lie in the mid-range,where our ears are most sensitive to such interference. You don't want reflections smearing the sound, especially if they're easily avoidable.

With center channels, most designs assume the speaker will have close proximity to a TV screen or wall as well, sort of a built in baffle step compensation for step-loss.

Rich-n-Texas
06-30-2007, 02:33 PM
Here are a couple of closeups of the CC speaker in the TV stand:

The pixelsplease prefered method of CC speaker jacking:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_CCphoto16_30.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/CCphoto16_30.jpg)

And a view showing how far out it has to project to clear the top shelf overhang:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_CCphoto26_30.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/CCphoto26_30.jpg)

The MoPADS are on their way, and if it turns out they're not rigid enough to support the weight of the speaker when I move it forward of the shelf, I've got an idea to tach spray a couple of paint stirring sticks to the bottoms of the pads, which I think will firm them up.

L.J.
06-30-2007, 03:21 PM
The bad part about the reflections caused when the speaker isn't even, is that they lie in the mid-range,where our ears are most sensitive to such interference. You don't want reflections smearing the sound, especially if they're easily avoidable.



Kex, are you saying that angleing your CC toward the listening position is a bad thing? I know that the ideal location is at ear level, but this is almost impossible for alot people because this is exactly where the TV is sitting. My CC sits 3ft above my mains but there isn't much I can do about that.

kexodusc
06-30-2007, 04:05 PM
Kex, are you saying that angleing your CC toward the listening position is a bad thing? I know that the ideal location is at ear level, but this is almost impossible for alot people because this is exactly where the TV is sitting. My CC sits 3ft above my mains but there isn't much I can do about that.

No no no...not at all. Angling helps too.
Just wanted to emphasize that when centers are placed on shelves or in big entertainment unit spaces, try and have it flush with a large broad side (ie, tv screen, front of unit, etc). Personally, I think this would be more important than the degree of tilt unless you're really far off axis.

When it comes to angling, I try and be a bit more pragmatic too. My center is probably a good foot above my ears. I tilt it a bit, but there might be 1/4 inch or less of lift applied at the back to tilt the front downward.

Most speakers have decent off-axis radiating patters usually up to 15 degrees or so.

The degree of off axis responses doesn't make them any better sounding necessarily, but it is useful for center channels. If your sitting 10 feet from a center channel, 15 degrees corresponds to about 2 and a half feet or so vertical leeway, that is your ears can be 2.5 feet or so off axis with minimal change in response... That's a good variance. At 8 feet distance, it's a little over 2 feet. Even if you play it safe and cut the 15 degrees requirement in half, you've still got quite a bit of vertical allowance.

MTM alignments (midwoofer, tweeter, midwoofer) typical of most centers these days have pretty good off axis response on the vertical axis. If you're really sensitive to the high frequencies, and your tweeter doesn't have great dispersion, the above won't really hold true and you might notice the higher treble decreasing a bit, but it's a good place to start. The mids and lower are fairly safe still though.

All that to say that tilting/angling the speakers doesn't always make a big difference, or perhaps that we don't need to tilt the speaker so that it's pointing perfectly at your head...we've got some wiggle room. Mine still shoots well above my head. If I didn't tilt it at all, I could notice some loss of brightness.
I prefer the slight tilt to a more aggressive tilt I had tried because I couldn't hear any difference and I was worried it would fall off my set (my wife's cat has a bad habit of jumping around that area).

Think about it - you've probably toyed with the toe-in on your mains. Ever own a pair of speakers that needed large differences in the amount of toe in before you noticed a difference in sound? Same principle - the off axis response probably didn't change much for the first few degrees...

Rich-n-Texas
06-30-2007, 04:31 PM
(my wife's cat...)
Yeah, okay Kex. A real manly man are you huh? :rolleyes5:

L.J.
06-30-2007, 04:45 PM
No no no...not at all. Angling helps too.
Just wanted to emphasize that when centers are placed on shelves or in big entertainment unit spaces, try and have it flush with a large broad side (ie, tv screen, front of unit, etc). Personally, I think this would be more important than the degree of tilt unless you're really far off axis.

When it comes to angling, I try and be a bit more pragmatic too. My center is probably a good foot above my ears. I tilt it a bit, but there might be 1/4 inch or less of lift applied at the back to tilt the front downward.

Most speakers have decent off-axis radiating patters usually up to 15 degrees or so.

The degree of off axis responses doesn't make them any better sounding necessarily, but it is useful for center channels. If your sitting 10 feet from a center channel, 15 degrees corresponds to about 2 and a half feet or so vertical leeway, that is your ears can be 2.5 feet or so off axis with minimal change in response... That's a good variance. At 8 feet distance, it's a little over 2 feet. Even if you play it safe and cut the 15 degrees requirement in half, you've still got quite a bit of vertical allowance.

MTM alignments (midwoofer, tweeter, midwoofer) typical of most centers these days have pretty good off axis response on the vertical axis. If you're really sensitive to the high frequencies, and your tweeter doesn't have great dispersion, the above won't really hold true and you might notice the higher treble decreasing a bit, but it's a good place to start. The mids and lower are fairly safe still though.

All that to say that tilting/angling the speakers doesn't always make a big difference, or perhaps that we don't need to tilt the speaker so that it's pointing perfectly at your head...we've got some wiggle room. Mine still shoots well above my head. If I didn't tilt it at all, I could notice some loss of brightness.
I prefer the slight tilt to a more aggressive tilt I had tried because I couldn't hear any difference and I was worried it would fall off my set (my wife's cat has a bad habit of jumping around that area).

Think about it - you've probably toyed with the toe-in on your mains. Ever own a pair of speakers that needed large differences in the amount of toe in before you noticed a difference in sound? Same principle - the off axis response probably didn't change much for the first few degrees...

Makes sense. As always thanks for taking the time.

musicman1999
06-30-2007, 04:48 PM
I use a dedicated stand similar to this one.Sorry don't have digital camera.Works great though.

bill

pixelthis
07-03-2007, 01:44 AM
Here are a couple of closeups of the CC speaker in the TV stand:

The pixelsplease prefered method of CC speaker jacking:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_CCphoto16_30.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/CCphoto16_30.jpg)

And a view showing how far out it has to project to clear the top shelf overhang:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_CCphoto26_30.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/CCphoto26_30.jpg)

The MoPADS are on their way, and if it turns out they're not rigid enough to support the weight of the speaker when I move it forward of the shelf, I've got an idea to tach spray a couple of paint stirring sticks to the bottoms of the pads, which I think will firm them up.
I have a solution, rich in you're own mind.
That speaker is totally inappropriate for that spot, SO just send it to me and I'll send ya my
300$ klipsh center, should be a perfect fit!:cornut:

pixelthis
07-03-2007, 01:51 AM
Put a shelf over the tv and put a few coins in BACK of the center to point it down
OR even better you could toss out that big bulky set like the rest of america is doing
and get you a nice LCD, hang it on the wall, and put your CC where your TV is now:ciappa:

Rich-n-Texas
07-03-2007, 08:07 AM
This guy's a piece of work, plain & simple!

L.J.
07-03-2007, 08:43 AM
I like him.................he's funny :crazy:

GMichael
07-03-2007, 08:47 AM
I read all his posts, because they make me laugh. But I usually don't reply. I think he's on the edge and could crack. A few bricks short of a full load as it were.

thekid
07-03-2007, 01:41 PM
If you need a quick easy fix for tilting a CC I have found that the old rubber door stops pretty well. You can usually find them in black or brown so they can somewhat blend with many speakers and they are wide enough/strong enough to hold the speaker and you can tilt the speaker up or down just by reversing the position of the stop depending on your need. Price wise they are a couple of dollars at your local hardware store.

pixelthis
07-04-2007, 12:21 AM
I read all his posts, because they make me laugh. But I usually don't reply. I think he's on the edge and could crack. A few bricks short of a full load as it were.
aT LEAST MY CALL sign isnt based on a dino car company that is defunct and just hasnt gotten that info to its brain yet (you do know that this is a HT and AUDIO forum
dont ya? Not advice on redneck truck driving)
As for a "quick and simple" fix for what ails rich you dont understand, it has to be a complicated and expensive solution, preferrable one that doesnt work well, so he can still complain.
Heres one two pieces of wood holding a third, slips under your tv and gives you another shelf, allows you to put your bowers and wilkins one eye under your set, since you dont want a shelf to put it OVER your set:out:
BUT I still think a trade with me is your best bet, son:22:

pixelthis
07-04-2007, 12:24 AM
And I may be a few shy of a full load, but your bricks built a outhouse with a empty
attic:wink5:

Rich-n-Texas
07-04-2007, 09:48 AM
I received and installed the Auralex Isolation pads yesterday:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_CCphoto37_04.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/CCphoto37_04.jpg)

My only complaint is that I won't be able to admire that cool Auralex logo, but I have a plan. Pix, I'll send them off to you and you can Monogram them with your initials. Please use the Lucida Handwriting font, size 16. Thanks.

Rich-n-Texas
07-04-2007, 09:50 AM
And I may be a few shy of a full load, but your bricks built a outhouse with a empty
attic:wink5:
No one escapes the wrath of Pixelsplease!!! :yikes:

GMichael
07-04-2007, 03:38 PM
aT LEAST MY CALL sign isnt based on a dino car company that is defunct and just hasnt gotten that info to its brain yet (you do know that this is a HT and AUDIO forum
dont ya? Not advice on redneck truck driving)
As for a "quick and simple" fix for what ails rich you dont understand, it has to be a complicated and expensive solution, preferrable one that doesnt work well, so he can still complain.
Heres one two pieces of wood holding a third, slips under your tv and gives you another shelf, allows you to put your bowers and wilkins one eye under your set, since you dont want a shelf to put it OVER your set:out:
BUT I still think a trade with me is your best bet, son:22:

I rest my case.
:eek6: :out: :frown2: :eek6:

Rich-n-Texas
07-05-2007, 04:53 AM
Yes but you have to admit he's doing a little better with his smilies of late, eh?

GMichael
07-05-2007, 05:22 AM
Yes but you have to admit he's doing a little better with his smilies of late, eh?

Yes he is. And I don't really think that he's as bad as he seems. It's just his flare and sarcasm that blow his POV into extremes.
And it does spice things up around here.

Rich-n-Texas
07-05-2007, 05:37 AM
Yes he is. And I don't really think that he's as bad as he seems. It's just his flare and sarcasm that blow his POV into extremes.
And it does spice things up around here.
I agree 10000000%. He's probably going to think I've caved in to his DLP bashing (:frown2: ), but it's very important to the livelihood of the forums that people post their opinions no matter how outragous or off the wall they may seem. If anyone's just flat out wrong about a point of fact, they'll be made aware of the mistake.

BTW, you may not have noticed but my DVD-A monitor problem is no longer an issue (see pics).

GMichael
07-05-2007, 05:44 AM
I agree 10000000%. He's probably going to think I've caved in to his DLP bashing (:frown2: ), but it's very important to the livelihood of the forums that people post their opinions no matter how outragous or off the wall they may seem. If anyone's just flat out wrong about a point of fact, they'll be made aware of the mistake.

BTW, you may not have noticed but my DVD-A monitor problem is no longer an issue (see pics).

Great pics. I love your speakers. And I love that you are driving them with the same receiver I have in my bedroom. It's good to know that it can do more than drive the little E20's I have mine hooked up to.
So what was the fix? How is it working?

Rich-n-Texas
07-05-2007, 06:08 AM
I don't think the pictures in the DVD-A Monitor thread that I started in this General Audio forum show the receiver, but thanks. Thruthfully, I don't know that I really have the right receiver to match up with the B&W's, but one thing that I'm not happy with is the lack of digital inputs. One coax and two opticals are proving to be limitations. Anyway, here's a link to the thread with the pics of the TV I used after seeing your picture...
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=23255

GMichael
07-05-2007, 06:20 AM
I don't think the pictures in the DVD-A Monitor thread that I started in this General Audio forum show the receiver, but thanks. Thruthfully, I don't know that I really have the right receiver to match up with the B&W's, but one thing that I'm not happy with is the lack of digital inputs. One coax and two opticals are proving to be limitations. Anyway, here's a link to the thread with the pics of the TV I used after seeing your picture...
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=23255

It is a few years old. And was a basic model for Yammy even back then. I doubt that it brings out everything your B&W's can do.
I did see your pics. AR puts any pic that you post into your profile. I poked around. I thought the picture of you in that pink dress was hilarious.:eek6:

Rich-n-Texas
07-05-2007, 07:42 AM
It is a few years old. And was a basic model for Yammy even back then. I doubt that it brings out everything your B&W's can do.
I did see your pics. AR puts any pic that you post into your profile. I poked around. I thought the picture of you in that pink dress was hilarious.:eek6:
:o Oh Gawd, he was looking at my profile!

Rich-n-Texas
07-05-2007, 07:44 AM
It is a few years old. And was a basic model for Yammy even back then. I doubt that it brings out everything your B&W's can do.
Upgrade? Upgrade? Did someone say upgrade? :ihih:

GMichael
07-05-2007, 07:57 AM
Upgrade? Upgrade? Did someone say upgrade? :ihih:

How about a good 2 channel amp?

Rich-n-Texas
07-05-2007, 09:59 AM
And you've got some land in Florida I might be interested in as well huh? :rolleyes: :biggrin5:

GMichael
07-05-2007, 10:04 AM
And you've got some land in Florida I might be interested in as well huh? :rolleyes: :biggrin5:

No to the amp?

Rich-n-Texas
07-05-2007, 10:17 AM
Details boy! Details!

GMichael
07-05-2007, 10:26 AM
It was a general idea for an upgrade. I don't have an amp to sell. Sorry. :nonod: I would like one someday. But not today.
Seems like it would just just what you could use though. Those B&W's must be a strain on that poor Yammy.

pixelthis
07-06-2007, 01:45 AM
Yes he is. And I don't really think that he's as bad as he seems. It's just his flare and sarcasm that blow his POV into extremes.
And it does spice things up around here.
HELLO!!!
I'M standing right here!
And I dont "bash" dlp, just state facts, and people will have a hard time remembering
just what dlp IS in ten years or so
And I really love your wedges with the foam on em, rich, looks like something a redneck would use to prop up one end of his magnavox color-teevee.
Danged
Lamp
Petered out agin:incazzato:

Rich-n-Texas
07-06-2007, 04:28 AM
HELLO!!!
I'M standing right here!
You could be standing a mile away and we'd still feel your presence!


And I dont "bash" dlp, just state facts, and people will have a hard time remembering
just what dlp IS in ten years or so
My boss just received his 25th anniversary gift from the company. A Samsug DLP with LEDS. They replace the lamp and the color wheel. Do you understand what I mean when I say DLP technology is evolving Pix?


And I really love your wedges with the foam on em, rich, looks like something a redneck would use to prop up one end of his magnavox color-teevee.
Danged
Lamp
Petered out agin:incazzato:
As opposed to this:


I'll send you some shims to put under your speaker and we'll both be better off.
I'll even wrap em in airconditioner foam for ya.
My neighbors got a window unit and is going outta town for a few days
I think the first picture I posted showed your method. My speakers are too valuable to me to just let one of them dangle from two shims. And besides, you're suggesting an illegal activity, so, no thanks! :nonod:

And don't forget, I'm not a redneck I'm a transplant... from New Jersey. I hate the Dallas Cowboys. 'Nuf said. :ciappa:

Rich-n-Texas
07-06-2007, 05:23 AM
It was a general idea for an upgrade. I don't have an amp to sell. Sorry. :nonod: I would like one someday. But not today.
Seems like it would just just what you could use though. Those B&W's must be a strain on that poor Yammy.
Here come the really dumb questions:

2 channel amp in addition to the existing receiver? Doesn't that mean the receiver would need to have pre-outs?

pixelthis
07-08-2007, 05:26 AM
You could be standing a mile away and we'd still feel your presence!

My boss just received his 25th anniversary gift from the company. A Samsug DLP with LEDS. They replace the lamp and the color wheel. Do you understand what I mean when I say DLP technology is evolving Pix?

As opposed to this:

I think the first picture I posted showed your method. My speakers are too valuable to me to just let one of them dangle from two shims. And besides, you're suggesting an illegal activity, so, no thanks! :nonod:

And don't forget, I'm not a redneck I'm a transplant... from New Jersey. I hate the Dallas Cowboys. 'Nuf said. :ciappa:



Yeah, you can get a DLP with leds for a mere four grand, same performance as a thousand dollar lcd
Betamax was superiour to vhs in every way but it lost out. Why? It could only record for an hour and a half, and by the time they "fixed" this prob it was too late.
When DLP came out it was great, better than the crt sets out then and a 20in lcd ran about 2 grand.
But lcd got cheaper a lot faster than a lot of people thought, and you can HANG EM ON THE WALL.
Dont think this is important? Well if your tv was sitting on the wall placement of your CC wouldnt be a problem.
Jvc thinks its important enough to make a x-lia set that is thin and will hang on a wall,
but the geometric distortion is a problem
But the real reason hanging on a wall is important is that the WAF (wife acceptance
factor) goes away
As for your teevee, you need another stand two cabinets on each side with a bridge runing across for your CC, YOU'RE CURRENT STAND IS'NT built for the substantial CC you
have, and you're set is too thin to hold it on top, anything youi do to fix this will be a rig except to get a stand that can hold your CC
And dont misunderstand me, sometimes in this barbaric age we live in people with
faulty reasoning abilities confuse fact with opinion.
For instance DLP has a nice picture and a vidiot would probably not mind the shortcomings to have one, but the sad truth is that most either dont notice or dont care.
DLP used to have a size advantage but with 50in LCD coming out thats the end of that.
Its a fact that there is no advantage to buying A DIP set over a lcd, and a lot of stuff you have to put up with, and dlp might be "evolving" but LCD is evolving too, and a lot faster because its getting the most research because most think its the future, and they're right
even with front projectors three chip lcd is a tough competitor and thats not that big a market anyway.
I've seen this happen a million times rich but the current scene is amazing even to me, I never dreamed that LCD would take over this fast.
But it did, and if those who prize picture q over convience and style (and only a slightly
better pq) than dlp is gonna follow the crt out the window, no matter how fast it "evolves".
It was made for an age when the crt dominated, I had a 60in mitshu that looked like the
box the U.N building came in, but those days are over and nowadays a 16in wide dlp
is in competition with a 3 ince wide lcd that will last 20 years, doesnt need a bulb every two or three years at 200 bucks a pop, or have rainbow artifacts from a color wheel
that spins so fast it streaches the tech for electric motors.
Just dont shoot the messenger okay?:1:

kexodusc
07-08-2007, 08:49 AM
Yeah, you can get a DLP with leds for a mere four grand, same performance as a thousand dollar lcd

Dude, I know you feel the urge to defend the stuff you own, but c'mon...$4000? You can buy them for half of that.

Rich-n-Texas
07-08-2007, 01:59 PM
Yeah, you can get a DLP with leds for a mere four grand, same performance as a thousand dollar lcd
http://shop4.outpost.com/product/5215717?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

$1772 at Fry's.

Blah blah blah blah
:rolleyes:


Just dont shoot the messenger okay?:1:
No reason to shoot the messenger as long as he's got his facts straight...
BANG! You're dead.

pixelthis
07-10-2007, 02:09 AM
Dude, I know you feel the urge to defend the stuff you own, but c'mon...$4000? You can buy them for half of that.

The latest issue of either s&v or widescreen review quoted a price of four grand, and the picture didnt exactly blow em away.
But with a better sxrd selling for half that the big question remains why buy one?
PQ freaks will go sxrd or plasma, and the rest will go LCD
I grew up in a world where most catalogs had PAGES of turntables of all types,
I remember the laserdisc, elcassette , DAD, selectavision, betamax, and theres nothing special about DLP, indeed it has never acheived the market penetration of a lot of devices that couldnt cut it.
There are more convienent, cheaper techs out there and the picture looks just as good if not better in some cases, and more expensive tech for the pq freaks.
DLP has always relied on tricks to work, color wheels, expensive lightbulbs with the lifespan of a fruitfly, and, later on, "dithering" to get 1080p
Anybody that buys one is gonna be an orphan sooner or later.
There's just no reason to buy one:dita:

pixelthis
07-10-2007, 02:24 AM
Here come the really dumb questions:

2 channel amp in addition to the existing receiver? Doesn't that mean the receiver would need to have pre-outs?
DUH!
If yours doesnt just look at it as a good reason to upgrade:thumbsup:

Or a middle/top of the line receiver might more suit your purposes, a seperates system isnt for everybody, and nothing wrong with that, I myself am having trouble getting the scratch for the final leg of my system, a seperate am to power my integra 7.4, using that as a pre-pro.
Just make sure its worthy of those fantastic (where did you say you live again) speakers.
Hate to sic the bowers and wilkins secret police on your redneck butt for abusing
(chorus of ahhhs in background) B&W'S:nono:

pixelthis
07-10-2007, 02:37 AM
so EVEN IF THESE "NEW TECH DLP " sets are selling for firesale prices how does this bolster your argument that this format will be around?
I had a girlfriend once that would'nt get rid of her old console TV because the "picture
was so good", purple people and all. Try and convince her that a DLP is better enough to justify a 16in wide cabinet that wont hang on the wall (most wives control the pursestrings you know)
Thats why they're called "pursestrings", not WALLETSTRINGS:ciappa: :prrr:

kexodusc
07-10-2007, 03:48 AM
Wow...I've never met an LCD fanboy before. Damn...

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 05:21 AM
Yeah, he's so enthusiastic about his "HD for the common folk" TV he has to take breaks between posts in order to catch his breath. :rolleyes:

I'll check your facts Pix and see if maybe this time I should break out the 9MM...

GMichael
07-10-2007, 05:31 AM
Here come the really dumb questions:

2 channel amp in addition to the existing receiver? Doesn't that mean the receiver would need to have pre-outs?

Yeah, don't you have any?

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 06:11 AM
No. So what would I need to do to get more power to the speakers? I've never owned separates, don't know what the term pre-pro means, don't know why I'd want a 2 channel amp when I'm driving 6 speakers... etc. I spent a bit of time in the amp/preamp forum, but nothing there to teach me the basics, and I don't want to be sent to some long, highly technical website explanation that I spend hours at and not be able to ask questions *in-line*, so to speak.

I have room treatments to get in place, but now I wonder if after doing that and then upgrading to a system that's better matched to my speakers whether I'll have to add or subtract to achieve the proper acoustics. I've spoken previously to my receiver's limitations with regards to digital inputs, so it wouldn't be too hard to eBay my 5740 for something that's better suited to my B&W's.

A lot to think about...

GMichael
07-10-2007, 06:20 AM
I just checked the manual on-line. It seems that the HTR-5740 does NOT have pre-pro's. So that route is out. I think your system already sounds great to me. Why not leave it as is?

My original suggestion of a 2 channel amp "would" have taken most of the load off your receiver so that it could get away with just driving the center, rear and surrounds. But it's not to be. You'de have to get a new receiver or a pre-amp and amps to increase your power.

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 06:35 AM
Okay, thanks. Back to plan A.

Just as a side note, whether this makes any difference or not I don't know, but in order to achieve 80dB in my room, with the amp set for 6 channel stereo, the volume control is set @ -17db.

GMichael
07-10-2007, 06:41 AM
HELLO!!!
I'M standing right here!
And I dont "bash" dlp, just state facts, and people will have a hard time remembering
just what dlp IS in ten years or so
And I really love your wedges with the foam on em, rich, looks like something a redneck would use to prop up one end of his magnavox color-teevee.
Danged
Lamp
Petered out agin:incazzato:

Did you save any of what you're smoking for me?:thumbsup:

GMichael
07-10-2007, 06:43 AM
Okay, thanks. Back to plan A.

Just as a side note, whether this makes any difference or not I don't know, but in order to achieve 80dB in my room, with the amp set for 6 channel stereo, the volume control is set @ -17db.

80db seems like it should be loud enough for me. And at -17db your receiver seems to have plenty left.
How does it sound to you?

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 06:58 AM
Other than the slight top-end distortion and lack of low frequency *clarity*, everything sounds "good". I don't have trained ears though and there aren't really any good listening stores (unless you count the BB Magnolia Home Theater stores) nearby where I could compare to other B&W's. I've moved the sub 4' in one direction and 3' in the other, as was previously suggested, but it didn't make any difference.

Even after a dose of cranked Systematic Chaos, I always feel a bit slighted in the ear splitting/wake the neighbors department. I've never set the volume any higher than 0dB, and I've got this inbred fear that tells me not to push it any further.

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 07:00 AM
Did you save any of what you're smoking for me?:thumbsup:
I'm not happy about the fact that he flipped me off. I'm really leaning towards the 9mm now!

GMichael
07-10-2007, 07:08 AM
Other than the slight top-end distortion and lack of low frequency *clarity*, everything sounds "good". I don't have trained ears though and there aren't really any good listening stores (unless you count the BB Magnolia Home Theater stores) nearby where I could compare to other B&W's. I've moved the sub 4' in one direction and 3' in the other, as was previously suggested, but it didn't make any difference.

Even after a dose of cranked Systematic Chaos, I always feel a bit slighted in the ear splitting/wake the neighbors department. I've never set the volume any higher than 0dB, and I've got this inbred fear that tells me not to push it any further.

Do you want to go deaf?

GMichael
07-10-2007, 07:09 AM
I'm not happy about the fact that he flipped me off. I'm really leaning towards the 9mm now!

I thought he aimed his flippers at Kex.

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 07:28 AM
Do you want to go deaf?
Fast cars, loose women and loud music, that's me.

Another rule I live by: "You're only young once, but you can be immature your entire life".

I thought he aimed his flippers at Kex.
Regardless, there's no call for such language here at AR. :ihih:

kexodusc
07-10-2007, 07:48 AM
Fast cars, loose women and loud music, that's me.

Another rule I live by: "You're only young once, but you can be immature your entire life".

Regardless, there's no call for such language here at AR. :ihih:

Hey Rich, I agree with GM, if you're getting loud enough music out of your current receiver, you're not going to notice leaps and bounds of improvement upgrading. If you ebayed your 5740, you might try and get a 5760 or something just to add a cheap amp later...a decent power amp can be had for $150 or less on the used market - well worth it IMO, just gives you a bit better sound, especially at higher volumes or for busy movies.
But your speakers aren't terribly hard to drive and I suspect you've got plenty of juice left in the 5740.
Just outta curiousity, how far above "0 dB" does the unit go? +12 dB or something?

GMichael
07-10-2007, 08:01 AM
Just outta curiousity, how far above "0 dB" does the unit go? +12 dB or something?

Not sure. At -15db my bedroom is rip-roaring loud. I doubt my little E20's could take much more without distorting.

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 08:02 AM
You guys are probably going to laugh but I've honestly never turned the volume control past 0. I know that clipping is clearly audible, and most receivers have protection circuitry, but it's just been a mindset of mine for all the years I've owned stereo equipment that either my speakers will just pop or my receiver will start smoking if I turn it up too loud. I'll check the manual's specs to see what the dB range is, and what it is in reference to later on.

GMichael
07-10-2007, 08:03 AM
Another rule I live by: "You're only young once, but you can be immature your entire life".

:

What happened to, "If it feels good, do it."?

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 09:32 AM
It's been so long I don't remember what it feels like.

GMichael
07-10-2007, 10:01 AM
It's been so long I don't remember what it feels like.

Me too. It's been almost 8 hours.

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 10:31 AM
Kiss my :ciappa: ! Besides, probably a typo where you meant 8 years, not hours, which I'm willing to bet is how long you've been married. HA HA!!!

:biggrin5:

GMichael
07-10-2007, 10:36 AM
Kiss my :ciappa: ! Besides, probably a typo where you meant 8 years, not hours, which I'm willing to bet is how long you've been married. HA HA!!!

:biggrin5:

6:20 AM July 10th 2007.

I'll let you do the math.

Have I mentioned the part about my wife being a hot babe from the Philippines? Oh, and 13 years younger than me. 4'7" about 85 pounds.....
Life is good!

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 10:47 AM
6:20 AM + 1:45 pm = 7 hrs 25 minutes of marital bliss. Did I get the math right? Is the reception over yet?

GMichael
07-10-2007, 10:51 AM
6:20 AM + 1:45 pm = 7 hrs 25 minutes of marital bliss. Did I get the math right? Is the reception over yet?

Ended in 2001. Why weren't you there?

L.J.
07-10-2007, 10:53 AM
This thread sure has taken some interesting turns.

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 10:57 AM
Ended in 2001. Why weren't you there?
The AR forum wasn't born yet.

L.J. Watch closely and you'll see me get this train wreck back on track with some more 'basics' questions. :thumbsup:

GMichael
07-10-2007, 11:00 AM
The AR forum wasn't born yet.



Take note of some of these join dates. http://forums.audioreview.com/memberlist.php?&order=ASC&sort=joindate&pp=50

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 11:07 AM
1969 huh? Wasn't the inventor of the internet still just a stain on the wall back then?

Nice try... Ain't biting.

GMichael
07-10-2007, 11:15 AM
1969 huh? Wasn't the inventor of the internet still just a stain on the wall back then?

Nice try... Ain't biting.

You could nibble.

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 02:16 PM
The latest issue of either s&v or widescreen review quoted a price of four grand, and the picture didnt exactly blow em away.
S&V's latest issue shows a price of $3199 for the Samsung "61-inch, top-of-the-line HL-T6189S." which I'm sure is MSRP. Your results may vary (i.e maybe $2999?) 61" is a lot of TV for $3K don't ya think?

Rich-n-Texas
07-10-2007, 02:33 PM
Some more remarks from S&V online:


CONTROL PATHS The three HDMI 1.3 connections don't just bring you the deepest color possible; you can also operate your other gear through them via CEC tech. Bluetooth is onboard, for wireless headphone listening, too. Now if I could only sync my phone with this baby...
That reminds me. I haven't even listed all the cool features my TV includes yet, but if the 9mm still proves ineffective, I'll break out the big guns...

pixelthis
07-11-2007, 09:35 PM
SO much misinfo on this thread from the clueless, so little time.
The set I was looking at uses leds as a light source, replacing the toxic mercury bulb.
The reviewer said the pic was a little dim.
AND I am not an LCD "fanboy" just in touch with reality.
AND you really are clueless about amps rich in your own mind, be surprized if your beemers last that long.
Most likely you only need a few watts to get loud output from your speakers, so why do ya need a powerfull amp? For transient loud passages, if your amp cant drive your speakers properly they will go into clipping, which is actually worse than overpowering
them.
You need a decent amp with a decent power supply, or eventually you'll have a bunch
of very expensive english built paperweights.
Yamahas are actually a good match for beemers, they have a halfway decent damping factor, something a lot of receivers lack, but yours is actually a bit puny.
In other words your system is like your teevee, looks good but no real guts inside'
OR as REAL Texans say "big hat no cattle".
Check out outlaw audio, never tried their stuff but its cheap and well reviewed, and the amps have real guts.
And if you dont know what a "pre-pro" (preamp procerssor) is you are truly headed for grief son:17:

Blue Meanie
07-12-2007, 03:44 AM
SO much misinfo on this thread from the clueless, so little time...

...For transient loud passages, if your amp cant drive your speakers properly they will go into clipping, which is actually worse than overpowering
them...


Speakers don't clip, amplifiers do. "SO much misinfo...":cornut:

Jeff

Rich-n-Texas
07-12-2007, 04:44 AM
SO much misinfo on this thread from the clueless, so little time.
The set I was looking at uses leds as a light source, replacing the toxic mercury bulb.
The reviewer said the pic was a little dim.
AND I am not an LCD "fanboy" just in touch with reality.
AND you really are clueless about amps rich in your own mind, be surprized if your beemers last that long.
Most likely you only need a few watts to get loud output from your speakers, so why do ya need a powerfull amp? For transient loud passages, if your amp cant drive your speakers properly they will go into clipping, which is actually worse than overpowering
them.
You need a decent amp with a decent power supply, or eventually you'll have a bunch
of very expensive english built paperweights.
Yamahas are actually a good match for beemers, they have a halfway decent damping factor, something a lot of receivers lack, but yours is actually a bit puny.
In other words your system is like your teevee, looks good but no real guts inside'
OR as REAL Texans say "big hat no cattle".
Check out outlaw audio, never tried their stuff but its cheap and well reviewed, and the amps have real guts.
And if you dont know what a "pre-pro" (preamp procerssor) is you are truly headed for grief son:17:
:mad5: :mad2: :incazzato: :mad2: :incazzato: :mad2:
(Obligatory text)

GMichael
07-12-2007, 05:28 AM
SO much misinfo on this thread from the clueless, so little time.
The set I was looking at uses leds as a light source, replacing the toxic mercury bulb.
The reviewer said the pic was a little dim.
AND I am not an LCD "fanboy" just in touch with reality.
AND you really are clueless about amps rich in your own mind, be surprized if your beemers last that long.
Most likely you only need a few watts to get loud output from your speakers, so why do ya need a powerfull amp? For transient loud passages, if your amp cant drive your speakers properly they will go into clipping, which is actually worse than overpowering
them.
You need a decent amp with a decent power supply, or eventually you'll have a bunch
of very expensive english built paperweights.
Yamahas are actually a good match for beemers, they have a halfway decent damping factor, something a lot of receivers lack, but yours is actually a bit puny.
In other words your system is like your teevee, looks good but no real guts inside'
OR as REAL Texans say "big hat no cattle".
Check out outlaw audio, never tried their stuff but its cheap and well reviewed, and the amps have real guts.
And if you dont know what a "pre-pro" (preamp procerssor) is you are truly headed for grief son:17:

Try not to skip your meds.

L.J.
07-12-2007, 06:31 AM
****walks into room and is almost hit with a flying pie****

****Closes door so the food fight can continue****

GMichael
07-12-2007, 06:50 AM
(door opens & GM slips out)
(yelling and crashing can be heard while the door is open)
(glimpses of food flying by can be seen and GM gets hit in the back on the way out)

Hey LJ,
Let's go get a few beers in us.
So, how's the family doing?.........

L.J.
07-12-2007, 07:56 AM
(door opens & GM slips out)
(yelling and crashing can be heard while the door is open)
(glimpses of food flying by can be seen and GM gets hit in the back on the way out)

Hey LJ,
Let's go get a few beers in us.
So, how's the family doing?.........

Beer.................I'm always down for some sippin' :wink5:

pixelthis
07-12-2007, 11:37 PM
Speakers don't clip, amplifiers do. "SO much misinfo...":cornut:

Jeff
I know that ya big silly, but I'm talkin to someone who doesnt know what a pre-pro is,
and when referring to clipping its common to say you're driving your speakers into clipping,
just an expression, really.
NOT that it matters, the hamster in rich until will probably die before any signifigant damage can occure.
And this guy is listening to ROCK on these speakers! Like takin a lexus 4wheelin.
HEY rich for now ever hear of cerwin vega's? Sounds like just the thing fer ya, next time your at your girlfriends trailer ask if she knows anybody with some:D

pixelthis
07-12-2007, 11:40 PM
But I guess it could be worse, you could be listening to randy travesty
or conway twitty-twister:lol:

GMichael
07-13-2007, 05:57 AM
(GM walks in at 2 AM to see what the noise is about. The room is trashed. Pixman is there by himself. He is throwing pies at the ceiling and then standing under them when they fall. GM slowly backs out of the room and quietly closes the door.)

kexodusc
07-13-2007, 06:33 AM
I know that ya big silly, but I'm talkin to someone who doesnt know what a pre-pro is,
and when referring to clipping its common to say you're driving your speakers into clipping,
just an expression, really.
NOT that it matters, the hamster in rich until will probably die before any signifigant damage can occure.
And this guy is listening to ROCK on these speakers! Like takin a lexus 4wheelin.
HEY rich for now ever hear of cerwin vega's? Sounds like just the thing fer ya, next time your at your girlfriends trailer ask if she knows anybody with some:D
Geez, the more you get called on the blatant bad info you excrete, the bigger the pile grows...
Great strategy though, when you can't fool them with BS, change speeds and start insulting them personally...good job!

You, don't by chance, have a gross mistrust for all women, do ya?

Rich-n-Texas
07-13-2007, 08:15 AM
Dammit Kex! I was preparing a really long lesson in psychology for pixelate and you beat me to the punch! :thumbsup:

Since he flies by night, I'm going to work him over later anyway...

kexodusc
07-13-2007, 08:27 AM
Dammit Kex! I was preparing a really long lesson in psychology for pixelate and you beat me to the punch! :thumbsup:

Since he flies by night, I'm going to work him over later anyway...

I wouldn't bother .

pixelthis
07-13-2007, 11:39 PM
Geez, the more you get called on the blatant bad info you excrete, the bigger the pile grows...
Great strategy though, when you can't fool them with BS, change speeds and start insulting them personally...good job!

You, don't by chance, have a gross mistrust for all women, do ya?
THANKS:thumbsup:
AND thanks for proving that you dont know what you're talking about by not knowing what I'm talking about.
And ol rich-till-next week is gonna psychoanalyze ME! Thats like a redneck trying to be a music critic.
And where do you get the inference that I dont trust women?
BTY you must be pretty young, anybody with years on em knows you cant trust women anymore than anybody else, wait till the hormone haze fades a little(or your third wife leaves ya after sockin away money for a year, not paying any of the bills in YOUR name in the process)
Technical geek types always have a rather naive view of women, anyway, and you do seem to know at least a little about tech stuff, musta read the owners manuel for your bose clock radio
AS for ol GM, looks like ya have a little creepin rust in the old brainpan, son.
You have a picture of a toy truck for an icon, how old are ya, twelve?
From the way you keep on babblin about pie you must need a truck to get around in:18:

Luvin Da Blues
07-14-2007, 06:44 AM
You have a picture of a toy truck for an icon, how old are ya, twelve?


Come on Pix, GM's avatar is one of the coolest here...and it matches his personality to a tee.

GM, I say that with the utmost respect (I think).:prrr:

Rich-n-Texas
07-14-2007, 08:02 PM
This thread has not only lost its ability to educate but has also lost its ability to entertain.

Yeah, you can get a DLP with leds for a mere four grand...
I've proven Pix that you can buy an LED DLP TV for less than $2K which makes your statement incorrect. When you're willing to admit that you were wrong by posting words that state that fact here in this thread, you will regain my respect for you. If you can't do that then I'm afraid I no longer have any interest in what you have to say and that I'd like you to exit my thread.

GMichael
07-15-2007, 08:57 AM
Come on Pix, GM's avatar is one of the coolest here...and it matches his personality to a tee.

GM, I say that with the utmost respect (I think).:prrr:

Thanks. I picked it because he's simple and goofy, like me. Just having some fun.

Pix, you are a funny guy. I just may have socks older than you. But I refuse to grow up. Life is too short to be an adult. Now, pass the remote.

hermanv
07-15-2007, 11:19 AM
...edit...
Why is it important to get your CC even with your screen?
...edit..Many people with front projection put the CC behind the screen, they do this because movie voices are usually routed to the center channel, so it supposedly heightens realism. You'd mount the CC at the same heigth and centered just above/below your projection TV for the same reason.

All this, so it sounds like the voices are coming from the actors on the screen :). Reflections??? Geez.

Rich-n-Texas
07-15-2007, 12:36 PM
Come on Pix, GM's avatar is one of the coolest here...and it matches his personality to a tee.
I consider that a challenge! :ihih:


GM, I say that with the utmost respect (I think).:prrr:
:rolleyes:

:biggrin5:

Blue Meanie
07-15-2007, 12:46 PM
I wouldn't bother .

Just READING some of his (pixelthis) posts makes my head hurt.:skep:

Jeff

Blue Meanie
07-15-2007, 12:46 PM
I wouldn't bother .

Just READING some of his (pixelthis) posts makes my head hurt.:skep:

Jeff

pixelthis
07-16-2007, 12:22 AM
Just READING some of his (pixelthis) posts makes my head hurt.:skep:

Jeff
So much so that you doublepost
And rich I never said that you couldnt get a led dlp for less than 4 grand, just that the one I saw was 4 grand, still doesnt matter, still a dinosaur whose own extinction hasnt quite gotten to its brain yet.
As for YOUR THREAD, it was shakespear (or speilburg, or alfred e newman, whatever)
who said that once its out there it aint yours anymore.
AND Gm you have fifty year old socks?
My socks are like my girlfriends, I throw em out when they get twenty years old.
And yes GM DOES HAVE A AVATAR that matches him well, and like him its thrown
a rod, poor chap.
But back to maters home theatery, this is a thread about basics after all,
and some gentleman (one of the few around) posted something about your center being
even with your screen.
WELL hate to bust your bubble but while that is preferrable the human ear just isnt that precise, sorry, beisides your voices wont line up with your CC anyway
Speaker placement is something audio crazies do between the time they've just bought
new stuff and cant afford new stuff yet, really all you need is to point the speakers in your general direction and enjoy, must be a really crappy movie you're watching if you can be distracted enough to notice where the sounds coming from.
Stereo audio is far more important, because that sets the soundstage.
When watching the latest blockbuster its not important WHERE the helicopters go when they fly over your head just that they do fly over your head
The minutae that audio and HT purists concern themselves with always amazes me,
Is it just me or does it seem just a little obsessive compulsive to nudge a center speaker
a little this way or a little that way, until its just right?
Who are you anyway, goldilocks? (well, maybe rich):12:

Blue Meanie
07-16-2007, 03:27 AM
So much so that you doublepost


Precisely!

Jeff

Blue Meanie
07-16-2007, 03:32 AM
My socks are like my girlfriends, I throw em out when they get twenty years old.

And I'll bet it REALLY bums you out when they reach puberty.

Jeff
P.S. Just kidding!

GMichael
07-16-2007, 05:19 AM
I consider that a challenge! :ihih:

:rolleyes:

:biggrin5:

He said, "one of the coolest." Not the coolest. No challenge is needed. But you could spice yours up a little.

Pix, I would have never pegged you for 50. I was thinking 15. :arf:

kexodusc
07-16-2007, 06:17 AM
Now this is a first...who joins and participates in a web forum dedicated to audio/home theater enthusiasts, and then criticizes the enthusiasm and dedication of its members.
Go troll somewhere else.


But back to maters home theatery, this is a thread about basics after all,
and some gentleman (one of the few around) posted something about your center being
even with your screen. WELL hate to bust your bubble but while that is preferrable the human ear just isnt that precise, sorry, beisides your voices wont line up with your CC anyway

There's a lot of good reasons for this, and detailed enough explanations in response to that gentleman's comments to explain why this was important. Whether you choose to accept it has no bearing on the reality.


Speaker placement is something audio crazies do between the time they've just bought
new stuff and cant afford new stuff yet, really all you need is to point the speakers in your general direction and enjoy, must be a really crappy movie you're watching if you can be distracted enough to notice where the sounds coming from.
Stereo audio is far more important, because that sets the soundstage.

If you knew 1% of what you pretend to know you'd be calling BS on yourself for this. Speaker placement is absolutely essential to home theater. In fact, I humbly suggest for the vast majority of enthusiasts, ie, those that would frequent a website devoted to stereo/home theater, that near-optimal performance is an important goal.
Any movie I watch has soundstaging and imaging that contribute considerably to the experience. There's good, and then there's better. Proper speaker placement is how you achieve the latter.



The minutae that audio and HT purists concern themselves with always amazes me,
Is it just me or does it seem just a little obsessive compulsive to nudge a center speaker
a little this way or a little that way, until its just right?

So you stumbled upon, and joined a web forum for home theater enthusiasts, and now you're amazed at the level of detail and committment its members have to optimizing their experience? What the hell did you expect? These little quirks that drive you crazy are the simplest, and sometimes most effective improvements. It's a lot better to try them first, than to just throw more money at your system.

hermanv
07-16-2007, 11:38 AM
Thanks Kexodusc, saved me some typing.


WELL hate to bust your bubble but while that is preferrable the human ear just isnt that precise, sorry, My screen occupies nearly 10 degrees of my field of view, I can locate many sounds much more accurately than this. Once upon a time, survival depended on knowing where the predator was with great accuracy. If your ears can't do this, perhaps a visit to a specialist to find out what's wrong with your hearing? (damn, there goes that gentleman).

Contrarian; a person who continues to argue untenable positions.

E-Stat
07-16-2007, 12:23 PM
Contrarian; a person who continues to argue untenable positions.
Indeed. Where do these guys come from? I guess I must be a vidiot with my DLP whose lamp is now about thirty fruit fly generations old now. :)

rw

pixelthis
07-16-2007, 11:30 PM
And I'll bet it REALLY bums you out when they reach puberty.

Jeff
P.S. Just kidding!
I dont date girls quite THAT young, but it DOES bum me out when thet get outta high school.AND you have cervix vega speakers and a pioneer receiver and you blame ME for your headache?
:nono:

pixelthis
07-16-2007, 11:46 PM
Indeed. Where do these guys come from? I guess I must be a vidiot with my DLP whose lamp is now about thirty fruit fly generations old now. :)

rw
have fun trying to find a lamp for that thing when they quit making them.
AS for speaker placement, thats the holy grail of people whose speakers dont image properly.
SURE you have to get them in the general neighborhood, but a few degrees this or that way wont matter a whit.
Its like the old 20 to 20,000 myth of human hearing, very few people hear above
14,000, but you keep "hearing" that the human range is 20 to 20,000 herzt.
An audiologist gave me a hearing test once, came out at 12,000 hertz or so and he said that was exceptional, that most people he tested barely cleared above ten or so.
Audioland is rife with these myths and strange behaviours, which is fine, people who collect butterflys or stamps can be eaqually obsessive.
But its so easy to forget in the middle of the swamp that you went in there to kill alligators,
and the POINT of this whole thing is the enjoyment of media after all.
If you have speakers with properly aligned and tight elements that project a decent
soundstage you'll be surprized how how easy it is to get spectacular sound, withour playing musicAL SPEAKERS

Blue Meanie
07-17-2007, 03:52 AM
I dont date girls quite THAT young, but it DOES bum me out when thet get outta high school.AND you have cervix vega speakers and a pioneer receiver and you blame ME for your headache?
:nono:

Both part of a 'vintage' 2-channel system. We can't ALL afford to buy the best, like you can.:nonod:

Jeff

E-Stat
07-17-2007, 05:45 AM
have fun trying to find a lamp for that thing when they quit making them.
What an unusual fear - fear of discontinued bulbs. Bulbophobia? BTW, if you need one for your 1950s 8 mm projector, here's one source:

Old Projector Bulbs (http://www.bulb-source.com/movieprojectorbulbs.htm)


AS for speaker placement, thats the holy grail of people whose speakers dont image properly.
What was your earlier comment? So much disinformation on this thread? Agreed..


If you have speakers with properly aligned and tight elements that project a decent soundstage you'll be surprized (sic) how how easy it is to get spectacular sound, withour playing musicAL SPEAKERS
My experience is quite different from yours in many respects!

rw

pixelthis
07-20-2007, 01:03 AM
What an unusual fear - fear of discontinued bulbs. Bulbophobia? BTW, if you need one for your 1950s 8 mm projector, here's one source:

Old Projector Bulbs (http://www.bulb-source.com/movieprojectorbulbs.htm)


What was your earlier comment? So much disinformation on this thread? Agreed..


My experience is quite different from yours in many respects!

rw
Better save that link for all of the DLP fanboys, they're gonna thank god for it after awhile.
I once read a series of articles on HT installation, very informative.
Seeems this couple had this mega buck HT put in and it sounded like crap.
Basically it was a tutorial on acoustics, where to mount your speakers, dampening
material, etc.
All very important for a system costing several hundred grand.
But with most of the systems I've seen on this site that type of effort is a total waste
of time, point your speakers toward the "sweet spot", set the levels and enjoy.
Most problems I have come across have to do with levels more than anything, and the best investment outside of a good universal remote was a spl meter.
With stereo you had to get your speakers just right in order to get an effective stage,
you just had two speakers after all, but with HT you're gonna get a pretty fair
soundfield just by having the speakers in the right place, their designated plot of ground,
you wanna nudge em to the left nudge em to the right, nudge nudge nudge, nudge em all night, fine.
I'd rather keep up with the latest tech, tricks, and info.
Getting your speakers "just right" is a big matter for electrostatics fans,. these type just
keep on trying to make a silk purse outta a poor imaging speaker, I have never seen an electrostatic image worth a hoot.
Why do you think bowers and wilkins spent all of that money on nautilus tweeters?
They knew that with a speaker that imaged properly placement wouldnt be as critical

GMichael
07-20-2007, 05:01 AM
Better save that link for all of the DLP fanboys, they're gonna thank god for it after awhile.
I once read a series of articles on HT installation, very informative.
Seeems this couple had this mega buck HT put in and it sounded like crap.
Basically it was a tutorial on acoustics, where to mount your speakers, dampening
material, etc.
All very important for a system costing several hundred grand.
But with most of the systems I've seen on this site that type of effort is a total waste
of time, point your speakers toward the "sweet spot", set the levels and enjoy.
Most problems I have come across have to do with levels more than anything, and the best investment outside of a good universal remote was a spl meter.
With stereo you had to get your speakers just right in order to get an effective stage,
you just had two speakers after all, but with HT you're gonna get a pretty fair
soundfield just by having the speakers in the right place, their designated plot of ground,
you wanna nudge em to the left nudge em to the right, nudge nudge nudge, nudge em all night, fine.
I'd rather keep up with the latest tech, tricks, and info.
Getting your speakers "just right" is a big matter for electrostatics fans,. these type just
keep on trying to make a silk purse outta a poor imaging speaker, I have never seen an electrostatic image worth a hoot.
Why do you think bowers and wilkins spent all of that money on nautilus tweeters?
They knew that with a speaker that imaged properly placement wouldnt be as critical

Do your fingers check with your brain before they type out this crap?

E-Stat
07-20-2007, 05:04 AM
Better save that link for all of the DLP fanboys, they're gonna thank god for it after awhile.
Old news. Folks have been using projectors to watch movies for more than a century.


I have never seen an electrostatic image worth a hoot.
I think I found your problem. Try "listening" next time. :)

rw

Luvin Da Blues
07-20-2007, 05:19 AM
Do your fingers check with your brain before they type out this crap?
This reminds me of a Collin James song..."Your Mind Is On Vacation But Your Mouth (read fingers) Is Working Overtime" :cornut:

GMichael
07-20-2007, 05:40 AM
This reminds me of a Collin James song..."Your Mind Is On Vacation But Your Mouth (read fingers) Is Working Overtime" :cornut:

His fingers be a flappin'

Great new song title.

pixelthis
07-22-2007, 10:38 PM
Old news. Folks have been using projectors to watch movies for more than a century.


I think I found your problem. Try "listening" next time. :)

rw
"listening" wont cure something thats designed in
Electrostacics produce sound over a wide area, by their very nature they wont image worth a hoot, and nothing wrong with that, sometimes they produce a pleasing sound but being able to place instruments in a certain place cant be important to ya if you're an electrostat
fan (let me guess, YOU are right)
I've listened to maggies, you name it, had a pair of those classic realistics with the linarium tweeters, but while they sounded quite good you could never quite figure out where anything was coming from, not to mention if you werent on the perfect plane with them a lot of stuff dimmed out or was lost.
I have always been puzzled by electrostatics, 50.000 volts to produce sound?
Sounds like a waste of a good bug zapper is all.
Same with the DLP crowd, if you want a color wheel spinning in front of a bulb invented in cave man days to get a picture, and a set of speakers that could bar-b-q a good size dog
go ahead, I just beleive theres a better and less complicated way of doing things is all
HMMMMM, hate to hijack ol rich-for-a-few-more-days-thread just so the hate pixel crowd can pile on so I'll start my new thread on why DLP is going the way of eight track
tape and 8mm movies, y'all come on over and bring your boxing gloves:sleep:

E-Stat
07-23-2007, 05:05 AM
"listening" wont cure something thats designed in
Electrostacics produce sound over a wide area, by their very nature they wont image worth a hoot, and nothing wrong with that, sometimes they produce a pleasing sound but being able to place instruments in a certain place cant be important to ya if you're an electrostat
fan (let me guess, YOU are right)
BTW, my high school composition teacher would fail us immediately with a rambling comma splice like that. Like all kinds of speakers, there is a wide range of designs found using electrostatic (with a "t") elements. Some are full range while others like Martin-Logans are not. Some image better than others. The notion that all image poorly is absurd.


I've listened to maggies, you name it, had a pair of those classic realistics with the linarium tweeters, but while they sounded quite good you could never quite figure out where anything was coming from, not to mention if you werent on the perfect plane with them a lot of stuff dimmed out or was lost.
You really need to work on that comma splice thing. Last time I heard MG 20.1s, you could most definitely hear exactly where sounds originated. Realistics? Please.


I have always been puzzled by electrostatics, 50.000 volts to produce sound?
Sounds like a waste of a good bug zapper is all.
You remain puzzled. Such misinformation is representative of all your comments. Where do you get this stuff?

rw

pixelthis
07-25-2007, 12:04 AM
BTW, my high school composition teacher would fail us immediately with a rambling comma splice like that. Like all kinds of speakers, there is a wide range of designs found using electrostatic (with a "t") elements. Some are full range while others like Martin-Logans are not. Some image better than others. The notion that all image poorly is absurd.


You really need to work on that comma splice thing. Last time I heard MG 20.1s, you could most definitely hear exactly where sounds originated. Realistics? Please.


You remain puzzled. Such misinformation is representative of all your comments. Where do you get this stuff?

rw


You're still in high school?(explains a lot)
AND you were able to place the sounds coming out of an electrostatic?
Great, so you have a great imagination. All I'm saying is that electrostats inherently produce a diffused sound, this was cited as an "improvement" by the early inventors, they created a wide soundfield, which is true, also the freaks created can come from anywhere,
so you have a hard time placing them.
But electrostats, like other gimmicks, really have no place. There are thousands of speakers out there that are more precise, compact, clear, and you dont haveta plug em in.
ELECTROSTATS are just another example of trying to re-invent the wheel, and failing
horribly. If you like em fine, but to me they produce poor bass(hence the addition of a "bass drive"to most) have a power supply that is unnessesary to produce sound, take up too much room, and I could go on and on, but why bother?
Electrostats are an exelent example of marketing over common sense.
As for realistic, they produced a speaker in two sizes, with a new kind of electrostat, called a linarium tweeter, an inexpensive job that became an instant classic.
Only prob was that the electrostat burnt out easily, something this type of speaker is prone to do, hence the selling of a replacement IN THE STORE:sleep:

E-Stat
07-25-2007, 11:10 AM
You're still in high school?(explains a lot)
No, that was the 70s. I am pointing out that your grammar is not up to high school level comprehension. Evidently, I went over your head describing the comma splice concept because you continue to make the same juvenile mistake in this post.


AND you were able to place the sounds coming out of an electrostatic?
Yes. Obviously, you have never heard an Acoustat, Quad, Stax, Dayton-Wright, Audiostatic, or Sound Lab full range stat or you wouldn't be asking stupid questions.


Great, so you have a great imagination. All I'm saying is that electrostats inherently produce a diffused sound, this was cited as an "improvement" by the early inventors, they created a wide soundfield, which is true, also the freaks created can come from anywhere,
You are confused and have it bass ackwards. Electrostats inherently beam. I suspect you are thinking of a different kind of design. Are you confusing the concept of bipolars?


But electrostats, like other gimmicks, really have no place.
Yes, that explains why ALL of the finest microphones are of the same design.


If you like em fine, but to me they produce poor bass(hence the addition of a "bass drive"to most) have a power supply that is unnessesary to produce sound, take up too much room, and I could go on and on, but why bother?
Achieving 25 hz flat is sufficient to me. Indeed continuing your discussion is pointless as you have no idea what you are talking about.


Electrostats are an exelent example of marketing over common sense.
As for realistic, they produced a speaker in two sizes, with a new kind of electrostat, called a linarium tweeter, an inexpensive job that became an instant classic.
Only prob was that the electrostat burnt out easily, something this type of speaker is prone to do, hence the selling of a replacement IN THE STORE:sleep:
Why do you continue to focus on this discontinued mid-fi piece of junk? Don't tell me - that is your only exposure to electrostats. Makes sense. Stick to what you know.

rw

pixelthis
07-26-2007, 12:31 AM
No, that was the 70s. I am pointing out that your grammar is not up to high school level comprehension. Evidently, I went over your head describing the comma splice concept because you continue to make the same juvenile mistake in this post.


Yes. Obviously, you have never heard an Acoustat, Quad, Stax, Dayton-Wright, Audiostatic, or Sound Lab full range stat or you wouldn't be asking stupid questions.


You are confused and have it bass ackwards. Electrostats inherently beam. I suspect you are thinking of a different kind of design. Are you confusing the concept of bipolars?


Yes, that explains why ALL of the finest microphones are of the same design.


Achieving 25 hz flat is sufficient to me. Indeed continuing your discussion is pointless as you have no idea what you are talking about.


Why do you continue to focus on this discontinued mid-fi piece of junk? Don't tell me - that is your only exposure to electrostats. Makes sense. Stick to what you know.

rw

You wouldnt beleive my exporsure to electrostatics and other gimmicks in my fifty
years so I wont bother to go into it.
And no I am not always "grammatically " (or politically) correct. You see, I have a life.
And I thought this was a home theater site, not a site for wanna be schoolmarms.
And comparing a passive, tiny device like a microphone to a highly powered behemoth
like most statics are is faulty reasoning at best.
You obviously have a huge emotional investment in this paticular design, so more power
to ya, and with a speaker requiring such hugh voltage to do a task other speakers do without such complication, you're gonna need it
Electros violate the first law of good engineering, K.I.S.S
(Keep It Simple Stupid)
And maybe you will figure out why thats such a good acronym sooner or later:1:

bobsticks
07-26-2007, 04:44 PM
Pixel,

I think one of the reasons you're encountering opposition is that you are using universal statements to tell people what they are (or aren't) hearing in their own rooms. My Martin Logans pale in comparison to the Soundlabs but I can tell you that with proper setup and amplification imaging is not a downfall. Could it be that on lesser equipment and improperly setup rooms that imaging becomes a problem? Sure, just like it would for any speaker.
Now I would have held a lot more credence in your post if you woulda banged stats on their shortcomings in the area of dynamics. Certainly, compared to some of the better implemented cone designs many stats will fall short in this area. At the same time, I suspect when you get in the big boy league like E-Stat, Flo and several others around here that these complaints lessen or disappear as well.

I also suspect that much of it has to do with the associated equipment in the rig--system synergy and all that. I'm more than willing to believe that you've had less than stellar experiences and in your room you're king so more power to ya... but personally I can't imagine pissing in anyone else's sandbox from long distance:)

Peace

Luvin Da Blues
07-26-2007, 05:06 PM
Pixel,

I think one of the reasons you're encountering opposition is that you are using universal statements to tell people what they are (or aren't) hearing in their own rooms. My Martin Logans pale in comparison to the Soundlabs but I can tell you that with proper setup and amplification imaging is not a downfall. Could it be that on lesser equipment and improperly setup rooms that imaging becomes a problem? Sure, just like it would for any speaker.
Now I would have held a lot more credence in your post if you woulda banged stats on their shortcomings in the area of dynamics. Certainly, compared to some of the better implemented cone designs many stats will fall short in this area. At the same time, I suspect when you get in the big boy league like E-Stat, Flo and several others around here that these complaints lessen or disappear as well.

I suspect that much of it has to do with the associated equipment in the rig--system synergy and all that. I'm more than willing to believe that you've had less than stellar experiences and in your room you're king so more power to ya... but personally I can't imagine pissing in anyone else's sandbox from long distance:)

Peace

Bobsticks, man your quite the diplomat. Well said. :cornut:

pixelthis
07-28-2007, 01:13 AM
Pixel,

I think one of the reasons you're encountering opposition is that you are using universal statements to tell people what they are (or aren't) hearing in their own rooms. My Martin Logans pale in comparison to the Soundlabs but I can tell you that with proper setup and amplification imaging is not a downfall. Could it be that on lesser equipment and improperly setup rooms that imaging becomes a problem? Sure, just like it would for any speaker.
Now I would have held a lot more credence in your post if you woulda banged stats on their shortcomings in the area of dynamics. Certainly, compared to some of the better implemented cone designs many stats will fall short in this area. At the same time, I suspect when you get in the big boy league like E-Stat, Flo and several others around here that these complaints lessen or disappear as well.

I also suspect that much of it has to do with the associated equipment in the rig--system synergy and all that. I'm more than willing to believe that you've had less than stellar experiences and in your room you're king so more power to ya... but personally I can't imagine pissing in anyone else's sandbox from long distance:)

Peace
I WOULD HAVE MENTIONED dynamics (what most "midnight modes limit) and the fact that most electrostats sound like this mode is in the permanent on position, but I DIDNT REALLY THINK that ol electrostat would comprehend it, considering he doesnt understand the diff between an electrec mic and a fifty thousand volt speaker.
As for "pissing in someones sandbox" is that what telling the truth is called around
here? IS VOICING YOUR OPINION , along with salient fact, considered an insult, do you really have such an emotional investment is a certain way of doing things that a contrary
view is considered an "insult"? Are you really that immature?
I find that my new LCD is an exelent way of viewing movies and surfing the web, also,
I havent considered it a personal "insult" that a lot of video snobs turn their nose up at
it, and even though several have denigrated this way of watching video I have never considered it "insulting".
Misinformed maybe, as most are going by what they see in the store, with the brightness
turned up to torch mode, under flourescent lighting.
But let me explain how the rube goldberg DLP is a stupid way of doing things that is being
soundly rejected by, well, everybody and I am suddenly the epitomine of evil in the modern world.
As for "diplomacy", well, to quote Heinlein, "diplomacy is saying nice doggy until you find a big enough rock"
The reason that I am finding "opposition " is that there are a lot of misinformed types on this forum, and not only that but they get a little miffed at having their bubble burst.
For instance I pointed out (correctly) that most of the sound from a movie comes from the center channel (as much as 90%), This is'nt rocket science, just basic HT 101.
And here comes old peruvian jumping in with an arrogant "wrong again" and then stating
(wrongly) that the sound comes out evenly from all speakers, a statement that would get him laughed out of most HT forums where the knowledge level is a little higher.
Was peruvian insulting me?
There are those on this site who confuse fact with opinion, stating the obvious with throwing "insults", disagreeing with wrong data as being "difficult".
As for using "universal" statements I find that gobbldygook.
HOW IS IT a "universal" statement that electrostats image poorly when every review I have read talks about how they image poorly?. And why is a universal statement bad?
Its a universal statement that jumping out of an airplane will kill ya if you dont have a chute
and the plane is in "flying" mode. Why is it bad to state such a thing?
I used to beleive a lot of dumb stuff, but a decade and a half of study in audio
(along with three years of formal electronics training) and then another 25 in HT , studying
at the feet of the likes of joe kane, etc, have disapated a lot of that nonsense.
Sorry if the real world protrudes into your little fantasy , sonny boy
But you are not listening to a 100 watt amp with 20 to 20,000 hertz hearing.
That amp is putting out maybe three watts, and if your hearing goes to 12,000 YOU'RE A PRODIGY.
And congrats on that sony dvd player of yours, the drive is probably used a a lot of megabuck players, you have just moved upstream!
And most "high end" stuff is made by a company called Harmon international, and a lot of it is made in China.
Not to mention Klipsch speakers, they emphasize they are "designed" in the US, but they're made in china, along with a lot of the stuff people on this website buy
Oh, and santa clause aint real either, hope I'm not "insulting" anybody by saying so:incazzato:

Blue Meanie
07-28-2007, 06:27 AM
'epitomine'?

Santa Clause isn't real? Sh it!

Jeff

bobsticks
07-28-2007, 09:59 AM
There are those on this site who confuse fact with opinion, stating the obvious with throwing "insults", disagreeing with wrong data as being "difficult".
As for using "universal" statements I find that gobbldygook.
HOW IS IT a "universal" statement that electrostats image poorly when every review I have read talks about how they image poorly?. And why is a universal statement bad?
Its a universal statement that jumping out of an airplane will kill ya if you dont have a chute
and the plane is in "flying" mode. Why is it bad to state such a thing?

I agree that there are those on this site that confuse fact with opinion. I believe I am addressing one of them right now. Your airplane analogy is misleading because it deals with an accepted and scientifically provable constant--gravity. A more fitting storyline would be for you to tell everyone in AR that the pictures on their walls were all royal blue because in the last 10 or 20 years all the pictures you have seen have been royal blue and you read some reports saying all pictures are royal blue. And, if you haven't figured out in a couple decades that reviews can be some of the most slipshod, least accurate source for facts then you may want to petition Father Time for a mulligan.

I have heard Klipsch speakers and did not like what I heard. They were set up in a poor configuration with a subpar receiver in a room with no treatments. Do I make universal statements that all Klipsch speakers perform this way? I could, but that would make me sound a bit daft. Also, I know that many people, including the SET crowd and vintage lovers and,indeed, yourself, seem to get positive results from them. It would be safe to conclude that these experiences are the result of other variables at play in comparison to my own experience.

As for being "invested in doing things a certain way", on Tuesday I'm auditioning some new speaks of the cone variety. Should i find them to be a discernable improvement I shall snap them up on the spot and in subsequent conversations will begin with qualifying phrases such as "In my room..." or "I felt that.." etc. Ideed, dynamics and imaging will play a part in my judgements however I will conclude the results to be dependent on my situation (with all its variables included) rather than a universal statement of truth.

...And thanks for the compliment on my Sony DVD player. I don't own one, but at least you managed to say something nice although it was about as "factual" as anything else you've said.


--sonny boy

GMichael
07-29-2007, 03:52 AM
I WOULD HAVE MENTIONED dynamics (what most "midnight modes limit) and the fact that most electrostats sound like this mode is in the permanent on position, but I DIDNT REALLY THINK that ol electrostat would comprehend it, considering he doesnt understand the diff between an electrec mic and a fifty thousand volt speaker.
As for "pissing in someones sandbox" is that what telling the truth is called around
here? IS VOICING YOUR OPINION , along with salient fact, considered an insult, do you really have such an emotional investment is a certain way of doing things that a contrary
view is considered an "insult"? Are you really that immature?
I find that my new LCD is an exelent way of viewing movies and surfing the web, also,
I havent considered it a personal "insult" that a lot of video snobs turn their nose up at
it, and even though several have denigrated this way of watching video I have never considered it "insulting".
Misinformed maybe, as most are going by what they see in the store, with the brightness
turned up to torch mode, under flourescent lighting.
But let me explain how the rube goldberg DLP is a stupid way of doing things that is being
soundly rejected by, well, everybody and I am suddenly the epitomine of evil in the modern world.
As for "diplomacy", well, to quote Heinlein, "diplomacy is saying nice doggy until you find a big enough rock"
The reason that I am finding "opposition " is that there are a lot of misinformed types on this forum, and not only that but they get a little miffed at having their bubble burst.
For instance I pointed out (correctly) that most of the sound from a movie comes from the center channel (as much as 90%), This is'nt rocket science, just basic HT 101.
And here comes old peruvian jumping in with an arrogant "wrong again" and then stating
(wrongly) that the sound comes out evenly from all speakers, a statement that would get him laughed out of most HT forums where the knowledge level is a little higher.
Was peruvian insulting me?
There are those on this site who confuse fact with opinion, stating the obvious with throwing "insults", disagreeing with wrong data as being "difficult".
As for using "universal" statements I find that gobbldygook.
HOW IS IT a "universal" statement that electrostats image poorly when every review I have read talks about how they image poorly?. And why is a universal statement bad?
Its a universal statement that jumping out of an airplane will kill ya if you dont have a chute
and the plane is in "flying" mode. Why is it bad to state such a thing?
I used to beleive a lot of dumb stuff, but a decade and a half of study in audio
(along with three years of formal electronics training) and then another 25 in HT , studying
at the feet of the likes of joe kane, etc, have disapated a lot of that nonsense.
Sorry if the real world protrudes into your little fantasy , sonny boy
But you are not listening to a 100 watt amp with 20 to 20,000 hertz hearing.
That amp is putting out maybe three watts, and if your hearing goes to 12,000 YOU'RE A PRODIGY.
And congrats on that sony dvd player of yours, the drive is probably used a a lot of megabuck players, you have just moved upstream!
And most "high end" stuff is made by a company called Harmon international, and a lot of it is made in China.
Not to mention Klipsch speakers, they emphasize they are "designed" in the US, but they're made in china, along with a lot of the stuff people on this website buy
Oh, and santa clause aint real either, hope I'm not "insulting" anybody by saying so:incazzato:

I've seen a lot of posters come and go on this forum as well as other forums. Many have been very smart. Many have been full of BS. I have worked in research for 12 years and have a degree in Science. For the last 20 years it has been part of my job to tell the difference from someone with facts and someone who is full of it. You don't fit into the first catagory.

E-Stat
07-29-2007, 01:43 PM
...but I DIDNT REALLY THINK that ol electrostat would comprehend it, considering he doesnt understand the diff between an electrec mic...
I presume you mean electret mic, but not suprised you can't even spell it. And that does NOT operate using the same principle as an electrostat. The correct answer is condenser - as used by premium Shoeps and Neumann microphones.


...and a fifty thousand volt speaker.
No such thing. They operate at a fraction of that since such voltages would cause severe arcing due to the dialectric of air. In the 70s and 80s, however, Dayton-Wright used a novel approach to use higher than usual bias voltages (around 12kV) by sealing the panels using another mylar diaphragm filled with sulfur hexafluoride (SF6) gas, an electrical insulator.

Aside from size (which is the case with dynamic drivers as well), the functional difference between a condenser mic and a full range electrostatic speaker is they operate at opposite ends of the recording chain. Both are musical transducers.



IS VOICING YOUR OPINION , along with salient fact, considered an insult...
Nothing wrong with stating opinions. There is certainly a wide range of preferences found with all sorts of audio gear. Don't be suprised, however, when others point out that many of your ramblings presented as fact (such as the two found in this diatribe) are anything but.

rw

Blue Meanie
07-29-2007, 02:52 PM
surprised:wink5:

pixelthis
07-30-2007, 02:32 AM
I agree that there are those on this site that confuse fact with opinion. I believe I am addressing one of them right now. Your airplane analogy is misleading because it deals with an accepted and scientifically provable constant--gravity. A more fitting storyline would be for you to tell everyone in AR that the pictures on their walls were all royal blue because in the last 10 or 20 years all the pictures you have seen have been royal blue and you read some reports saying all pictures are royal blue. And, if you haven't figured out in a couple decades that reviews can be some of the most slipshod, least accurate source for facts then you may want to petition Father Time for a mulligan.

I have heard Klipsch speakers and did not like what I heard. They were set up in a poor configuration with a subpar receiver in a room with no treatments. Do I make universal statements that all Klipsch speakers perform this way? I could, but that would make me sound a bit daft. Also, I know that many people, including the SET crowd and vintage lovers and,indeed, yourself, seem to get positive results from them. It would be safe to conclude that these experiences are the result of other variables at play in comparison to my own experience.

As for being "invested in doing things a certain way", on Tuesday I'm auditioning some new speaks of the cone variety. Should i find them to be a discernable improvement I shall snap them up on the spot and in subsequent conversations will begin with qualifying phrases such as "In my room..." or "I felt that.." etc. Ideed, dynamics and imaging will play a part in my judgements however I will conclude the results to be dependent on my situation (with all its variables included) rather than a universal statement of truth.

...And thanks for the compliment on my Sony DVD player. I don't own one, but at least you managed to say something nice although it was about as "factual" as anything else you've said.


--sonny boy
You realize what you have just stated havent you? That reveiwing equipment is worthless,
since no two pieces of equipment sound alike, you cant base a comment on a pair of Klipsch speakers because no two pair sound alike, and even if they did they are listened to in various conditions, so I guess reviews of equipment are worthless.
Actually Klipsch is trading on an old name, their new Chinese stuff has about as much to do with classic klipsch gear as your post has to do with logic
And their titanium tweeters tend to cause listener fatigue. OPPS! Made a universal statement there about Klipsh tweeters all being titanium !
And when you listen to those "cone" speakers you'll maybe notice that the sound is way more localized than the dispersed sound that comes from a electrostatic sheet.
And fifty thousand volts wont "short out" in the atmo, unless you have the current to go with it.
Crt televisions have high voltage power supplies of 30,000 volts or more and they dont "short out", move positive and negative far enough away and they wont no matter what the voltage. My mention of 50,000 volts was maybe an exaggeration, but stems from
an electrostatic design of a few years back that did utilize such voltages.
Nevertless the point still stands that electrostatics are a case of re-inventing a very nice wheel, they have no intrinsic or extrinsic advantage over a standard speaker, and have a lot of disadvantages, like a higher power bill for instance:ihih:

Of course according to you all of this is mute, since stuff is listened to in various enviroments reviews of gear is worthless.
Maybe we should review living room furniture instead, see how it affects the "sound" of our gear:sleep:

E-Stat
07-30-2007, 06:09 AM
Crt televisions have high voltage power supplies of 30,000 volts or more and they dont "short out", move positive and negative far enough away and they wont no matter what the voltage.
The difference, my learned electronics tech, is that CRTs are sealed in a vacuum! We who dwell in the atmosphere are not.


My mention of 50,000 volts was maybe an exaggeration, but stems from
an electrostatic design of a few years back that did utilize such voltages.
Do tell us of this design that defies physics. I'd really be interested.


Of course according to you all of this is mute...
FYI, I think you mean "moot". :)

rw

GMichael
07-30-2007, 06:26 AM
FYI, I think you mean "moot". :)

rw

I'm sure you're right. But I still vote for mute.

Luvin Da Blues
07-30-2007, 06:33 AM
And fifty thousand volts wont "short out" in the atmo, unless you have the current to go with it.

Actually the current (amps) have nothing to do with it. The voltage is the pressure and the current is the amount of electrons flowing.

Think pressure in a hose, you can have a pin hole but little flow. Of course the better conductivity of the "medium" the more current CAN flow.

pixelthis
07-31-2007, 01:52 AM
The difference, my learned electronics tech, is that CRTs are sealed in a vacuum! We who dwell in the atmosphere are not.


Do tell us of this design that defies physics. I'd really be interested.


FYI, I think you mean "moot". :)

rw
THE TUBES HAVE A VACCUME, THE POWER SUPPLIES DO NOT


AND I meant "mute" not moot since you are obviously not hearing much, so what you're listening to is "mute"
As for physics what type?
Quantum?
neutonian?
exercise class?
:incazzato:

E-Stat
07-31-2007, 03:53 AM
THE TUBES HAVE A VACCUME, THE POWER SUPPLIES DO NOT
Really need to work on that spelling!


AND I meant "mute" not moot since you are obviously not hearing much, so what you're listening to is "mute"
What you said originally makes no sense.


As for physics what type?
Still waiting to hear of this magical 'stat that runs using a 50kV bias in the open air..

rw

robert393
07-31-2007, 06:05 AM
Let's see.........

I could have spent the last 30 min watching a really funny episode of The Three Stooges, or reading this thread. This thread is FAR more FUNNY.....and would make a REALLY GOOD Stooges eposode (no offense to The Stooges intended)!

Each opposing person really does have valid points. Not to say each is ABSOLUTELY right.

Move along...........nobody wins here.

Robert

Funniest part of thread: post #79
"Other than the slight top-end distortion and lack of low frequency *clarity*, everything sounds "good". I don't have trained ears........" That is like saying "except for the car pulling to the right, the clanking under the hood, and no brakes........the car drives great!"

Peace!

E-Stat
07-31-2007, 06:27 AM
I could have spent the last 30 min watching a really funny episode of The Three Stooges, or reading this thread.
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!

rw

pixelthis
08-02-2007, 12:26 AM
Actually the current (amps) have nothing to do with it. The voltage is the pressure and the current is the amount of electrons flowing.

Think pressure in a hose, you can have a pin hole but little flow. Of course the better conductivity of the "medium" the more current CAN flow.
How do you think you get 30,000 volts from a power supply to run a CRT?
Its only 120 at the wall.
You use a high voltage "stepup" transformer and high voltage rectifier.
This is a "trade", current for voltage, you wind up with 30,000 volts but very little amps.
The same thing happens in reverse with an inverter used in a car.
The 12 volt batteryhas usually around 600 amps, a hugh amount, you "trade those amps for volts to run TV'S, etc.
Voltage IS pressure, and current is the water, but you can trade them back and forth with step-up and step-down transformers
Its the number one law of the universe, you dont get something for nothing.
I once built a flashing disco light thingy that had neon bulbs, run off of a nine volt battery, had a bunch of capacitors that charged to run the bulbs.
So current has to do with it in the sense that if you dont have enough current to "trade" you wont get a decent step up voltage.
This is a little test I pulled on ol electrostat, sure there isnt anything like a 50,000 volt speaker, because after stepping up the voltage you wouldnt have enough current to
run the thing.
I was just curious about the average knowledge of your average electrostat fan,
what he knew about basic electronics, but hey, I guess he has me beat
on grammar!:ihih:

Luvin Da Blues
08-02-2007, 05:18 AM
How do you think you get 30,000 volts from a power supply to run a CRT?
Its only 120 at the wall.
You use a high voltage "stepup" transformer and high voltage rectifier.
This is a "trade", current for voltage, you wind up with 30,000 volts but very little amps.
The same thing happens in reverse with an inverter used in a car.
The 12 volt batteryhas usually around 600 amps, a hugh amount, you "trade those amps for volts to run TV'S, etc.
Voltage IS pressure, and current is the water, but you can trade them back and forth with step-up and step-down transformers
Its the number one law of the universe, you dont get something for nothing.
I once built a flashing disco light thingy that had neon bulbs, run off of a nine volt battery, had a bunch of capacitors that charged to run the bulbs.
So current has to do with it in the sense that if you dont have enough current to "trade" you wont get a decent step up voltage.
This is a little test I pulled on ol electrostat, sure there isnt anything like a 50,000 volt speaker, because after stepping up the voltage you wouldnt have enough current to
run the thing.
I was just curious about the average knowledge of your average electrostat fan,
what he knew about basic electronics, but hey, I guess he has me beat
on grammar!:ihih:

and I quote "And fifty thousand volts wont "short out" in the atmo, unless you have the current to go with it."

So you say you need a relatively high current to discharge 50,000 volts in the atmosphere? Ever heard of static electricity we're talking about milliamps? The higher the voltage or static buildup the greater distance it can breach. The amperage is a product of the total resistance (or capacitance) of the medium it travels through. The required voltage to breach a given distance is dependent on the conductivity of the medium present. Why do you think that high voltage switches use arc quenching devices and low voltage ones do not regardless of the amperage rating?

You really need to work on your credibility around here.:nonod:

E-Stat
08-02-2007, 05:53 AM
I was just curious about the average knowledge of your average electrostat fan...
Well, I'm glad I passed your test. :)

I'll be the first to agree that some electrostats can be finicky and are not the most practical kind of speaker. I have to adjust the bias on mine virtually every time I listen as the ideal setting depends upon both temperature and humidity. Too much and you hear a sizzling sound. Not enough and you lose efficiency. My previous Acoustats beamed severely which meant that it was a one person speaker. While the image was wonderful in the sweet spot, it changed rather drastically once you moved. The current Sound Labs, by contrast, are a four-person-across speaker devoid of that intrinsic beaming.

On the other hand, their resolution and utter coherency is unmatched. The ability to duplicate the complex timbres found in music. What makes them the ideal microphone does translate to the other end of the reproduction chain. I was listening last night to Stephen Sondheim's A Little Night Music. On the "Weekend in the Country" cut, you could hear precisely where the four primary vocalists stood on the stage, both laterally and depthwise. Which makes me wonder why you think electrostats image poorly. As for reviews, here are a few I found with a range of different makes:

Innersound (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/819/index.html)

The Eros Mk.IIIs' best quality was their first-rate imaging: They generated a seamless, wall-to-wall soundstage that did not seem to emanate from the speakers themselves. The first track on David Hudson's Didgeridoo Spirit (CD, Indigenous Australia IA2003 D) opens with sounds of a rainforest, complete with a soft rain falling, exotic birds chirping, and wind rustling through the leaves. I heard so much new information over the Eroses that I was startled.

Martin-Logan (http://www.stereophile.com/historical/650/index.html)

Well, I'll tell you first what impressed me about the CLS. Stereo imagery was spectacularly precise. Not only were instruments and voices hung in space between and behind the speakers—which quite disappear—with both a natural perspective and unexaggerated size, but the way in which that perspective and the instrumental balance continually shift as the recording engineers play with the mixing desk was ruthlessly laid bare.

Quad (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/416/index8.html)

Image width excelled, with rock-stable specificity and needle-sharp focus in the far lateral field. Dispersion in the US Monitor was generous—it became possible to move around without losing the stereo image (no pinpoint "sweet spot"!). Two people (who no longer need to be Siamese Twins) sitting side-by-side could easily experience the speaker's superb imaging.

Quad 989 (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/720/index3.html)

The ESL-989s' imaging was topnotch, conveying a seamless, wall-to-wall soundstage that did not seem to emanate from the speakers themselves. They captured the soundstage depth and width of "Naris," from Patricia Barber's Blue Café (CD, Premonition/Blue Note 5 21810 2). Percussion was open, airy, fast, and transparent. José Carreras in Misa Criolla was startling, his soft tenor in the foreground, a large, muted drum playing deep and to the left of center stage, backed up by the large, distant chorus. The perspective was spacious and eerie, suggesting the desolation and emptiness of a high South American plateau. Suzanne Vega seemed to materialize between the two ESLs, close enough to touch, as she sang "Tom's Diner," from Solitude Standing (CD, A&M CD 5136).

Sound Lab (http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/893/index1.html)

Imaging from the A-3s is spectacular! With a mono source, the "image" remains tightly bunched between the speakers, with no perceptible wander either with changes of pitch or lateral changes of listening position, and this translates into almost incredible image specificity and stability from stereo sources. This is, in fact, the first electrostatic system I have heard which allows me to move from end to end of my listening sofa to the other (a distance of about two meters) without the "stage" position shifting almost entirely to one speaker and becoming, essentially, monophonic. As you might surmise, there is virtually no vertical venetian-blind effect from the Sound-Lab speakers.

More Sound Lab (http://soundlab-speakers.com/reviews.htm)

Unnecessary? Perhaps, but so then are Ferraris. They're clearly not for everyone. On the other hand, I've yet to hear a multi-way dynamic speaker truly disappear before me like they do.

rw

bobsticks
08-02-2007, 06:06 AM
...evidently bringing Joe Kane sandwiches doesn't entitle one to the full lesson.

pixelthis
08-03-2007, 11:54 PM
and I quote "And fifty thousand volts wont "short out" in the atmo, unless you have the current to go with it."

So you say you need a relatively high current to discharge 50,000 volts in the atmosphere? Ever heard of static electricity we're talking about milliamps? The higher the voltage or static buildup the greater distance it can breach. The amperage is a product of the total resistance (or capacitance) of the medium it travels through. The required voltage to breach a given distance is dependent on the conductivity of the medium present. Why do you think that high voltage switches use arc quenching devices and low voltage ones do not regardless of the amperage rating?

You really need to work on your credibility around here.:nonod:
My credibility?
I'm talking basic electronics and you're talkin about stuff you get when you rub your socks on the floor.
Static electricity can be up to fifty thousand volts in short bursts, and can numb your
arm in the winter if you're not carefull, but why dont they just pull the stuff outta the air?
Why do you pay the electric company? You're talking apples and oranges.
And I am glad you like your expensive tweakey speakers electro, maybe someday you will figure out they arent worth the trouble.
I think of Monty python when I see someone playing with electrostats
Silly boy! silly silly boy!:hand: