Ways to Biwire???

[omray]

Bi-Wiring (I want to do this for the sound quality for my B&W 705 speakers connected to my Denon 2807):
When using speakers set up & created for bi-wiring [the separate drivers], please advise me for what truly will give the best sound possible. Should I take my two sets of pureav Belkin cables, plug them into the same receiver outputs, then put them separately into the two sets of speaker terminals, or is it actually impotant to purchase biwire speaker wire (one set of + & - on one end, and two sets on other end)? Also, since my receiver (like most) has a speaker A and speaker B output, if I should use two sets of non-specialized-bi-wires, how would it compare to use the above described method vs. putting each separate cable from the receiver into the A and B slots? (Note: Denon AVR-2807 has Audyssey setup, which I hope will not get confused if I were to use the A and B slots to actually do biwiring into a total of 2 speakers.)

Banana plugs/clips/etc.: What is the advantage & disadvantage of using these?

Lastly, if you'd like to answer a general wire question: Some of the non-cheap wires have very thick insulation around the + and - wires contained within, and the + and - which then have their own independent insulation. Is that very thick (looks like a cable wire) insulation, in addition to the other insulation, actually helpful to the sound quality?

THANK YOU!

[DEVO]

1. Easy way is to use 14/4 and connect the +'s together then the -'s together at the receiver and connect to A. Then on the speaker side take the connecting spades off, and connect one set to the Highpass then the other to the Lowpass.

2. Banana's and spades make it easy for maintenence and if the speaker wire is too thick to get inside to terminal. Beyond that I would use bare speaker wire.

3. I don't know if bi-wiring your speakers will improve performance. You have very nice speakers! (Take a listen and it's your decision).

Happy Listening!:5:

[Luvin Da Blues]

Check out the manual for that receiver. You can assign the surround back channels as a second set of front amps so that you can actually bi-amp your speaker like I have my speakers set up. Of course this not true bi-amping but will feed the mains with 220 watts instead of 110 watts.

I initially set them up this way so I can't comment on how much difference it makes.

[FLZapped]

Bi-Wiring (I want to do this for the sound quality for my B&W 705 speakers connected to my Denon 2807):
When using speakers set up & created for bi-wiring [the separate drivers], please advise me for what truly will give the best sound possible.

THANK YOU!

Bi-wiring benifits are a total crap-shoot, there are a handful of variables that affect the results.

Someone else suggested probably the best approach - using regular 14 AWG wire, etc.

-Bruce

[Resident Loser]

Bi-Wiring (I want to do this for the sound quality for my B&W 705 speakers connected to my Denon 2807):
When using speakers set up & created for bi-wiring [the separate drivers], please advise me for what truly will give the best sound possible.
THANK YOU!

...side of the coin is that bi-wiring will be of little or no significance...that it's most salient result is to effectively increase the gauge of wire, which also affects the capacitance, inductance and susceptibility to RFI/EMI in the circuit...Generally speaking, none of these resultant things seem to be of any real sonic benefit under controlled tests.

The results, if there actually are any, will not be night and day dramatic...there might be some subtle differences observed over the course of time, but the counter to that argument is that you are simply listening "better" and might notice things you never took the time to listen for before your "buy-wire"-ing. Added to the mix is that even the most ardent supporters of such wiring schemes usually claim small, but noticeable, differences and usually only with more SOTA level equipment. They reults may also be software dependent.

To disabuse you of one particular fallacy, speakers with the jumpers connecting the woofers and tweeters were "created" for bi-amplification which, if done correctly, can actually improve your sound...Bi-wiring, and the notion that it makes any difference, is simply a by-product of tinkering or tweaking with those newly available connections...Some claim to have heard a difference and thus bi-wiring was born.

As a point of reference, and of similar scope, is the aftermarket power cord business. Starting as a manufacturing economy, equipment companies began using IEC connectors as opposed to hard-wired cords, a tweaker here, a tweaker there...next thing you know...bada-bing, bada-boom...$1000 power cords with reptillian designations...The psychology is simple: create a void and someone will fill it. With the advent of CDs and the general loss of TTs and cartridges to futz with, what's the average tinkering sort of audiophool to do?

To get the best sound your system is capable of requires no wires and probably no expenditure whatsoever. Simply find positions within your listening area where your loudspeakers do their best and experiment with room acoustics...it's that synergy which will have an impact far greater than any wire ever will...

jimHJJ(...some food for thought...)

[E-Stat]

Bi-wiring, and the notion that it makes any difference, is simply a by-product of tinkering or tweaking with those newly available connections...Some claim to have heard a difference and thus bi-wiring was born.
With which speaker designers did you arrive at this conclusion?


The psychology is simple: create a void and someone will fill it. With the advent of CDs and the general loss of TTs and cartridges to futz with, what's the average tinkering sort of audiophool to do?
Address audible problems caused by RFI.

rw

[Resident Loser]

With which speaker designers did you arrive at this conclusion?


Address audible problems caused by RFI.

rw

...provide a logical counter...I don't think I need to hob-nob with any speaker designers to arrive at my scenario...Bi-amplification has been widely used in professional applications going back to the advent of talkies...it has been a part of hi-fi since it's nascent stages...Pro-gear has filtered into the hobby since day one...particularly since there was no, non-pro stuff as we know it today...the earliest loudspeakers equipped with jumpers to facilitate either passive or active bi-amping were studio monitors and/or those designed for sound reinforcement applications...Such items found their way into the hobby of hi-fi...As far as I can see, bi-wiring is the proverbial johnny-come-lately...

BTW, were hybrid electrostatics designed for bi-amping or bi-wring?

Now apply Occam's razor to the dilemma...Did hi-freq/lo-freq binding posts appear to facilitate bi-amping (a known and acknowledged improvement) or bi-wiring (as FLZ pointed out, a crap-shoot at best)...also a phenomenon that most likely didn't even exist until the advent of after-market wiring made all flights of fancy possible? From that point on it seems like a market-driven, "jump-on-the-bandwagon" sort of scramble. Simplest answer is active bi-amping begat passive bi-amping begat bi-wiring...

On point two: haven't we been there already?

jimHJJ(...and do we get frequent flier miles?...)

[E-Stat]

...provide a logical counter.
S-p-e-a-k-e-r---d-e-s-i-g-n-e-r-s---p-r-o-v-i-d-e---t-h-e---c-a-p-a-b-i-l-i-ty---b-e-c-a-u-s-e---i-t---s-o-u-n-d-s---b-e-t-t-e-r. While not all agree, a preponderance of those who make high performance speakers do.


..I don't think I need to hob-nob with any speaker designers to arrive at my scenario..
I just love conspiracy theories. :)


BTW, were hybrid electrostatics designed for bi-amping or bi-wring?
Both - and for the same reasons why any speaker could benefit. Perhaps even more so given the reactive nature of ES panels. Naturally, I prefer the full range flavor that obviate the issue though.


Simplest answer is active bi-amping begat passive bi-amping begat bi-wiring.
That's more like it. No villainous schemes or black helicopters.


On point two: haven't we been there already?
Indeed. This is another one of your unsupported conspiracy theories. I will continue to voice the benefits to addressing this problem.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...this: Speaker designers provide it because the marketing departments have given it flavor-of-the-moment status...and those are the fellows who control the purse-strings...and many speaker companies market their own branded wiring or have reciprocal arrangements with wire purveyors...How else could they say Brand X speakers endorse Y wires or vice-versa...no conspiracies, just good old American business flim-flammery...I know it exists...you know it exists...anyone with an intelligence level above that of a bowl of fruit knows it exists...

Like 9 out of 10 doctors rec **** ointment...or better yet smoke Camels...

Or NASCAR uses **** oil...

Or etc, etc, etc...

Problem is I'm way too skeptical, a POV only age can provide and you are way too enamored of all things bright, beautiful and seemingly altruistic...

And again, apply Occam's Razor...how many folks would dig into their brand new, under-warranty gear to replace a hard-wired power cord?

jimHJJ(...always a hole that someone is eager to fill...)

[Feanor]

Bi-Wiring (I want to do this for the sound quality for my B&W 705 speakers connected to my Denon 2807):
When using speakers set up & created for bi-wiring [the separate drivers], please advise me for what truly will give the best sound possible.
...
Banana plugs/clips/etc.: What is the advantage & disadvantage of using these?
...
THANK YOU!

See my previous post ...


What I use is Monster 14 ga. 4 conductor cable to bi-wire my MG 1.6's. I got the wire and the Dayton banana plugs I use from Parts Express. My cables are only 3 foot in length because I use monoblocks with longer, balanced interconnects (from Blue Jeans Cable). See the wire and bananas here ...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=100-656
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=091-1260

On the speaker end, each of the four wires has its own banana plug; on the amp end, each pair of positive and negative wires is inserted into one banana plug. Possibly the biggest advantage of banana plugs vs. other connectors of bare wire is that they aret he easiest to connect and disconnect.

[E-Stat]

...this: Speaker designers provide it because the marketing departments have given it flavor-of-the-moment status.
That's why I asked you to whom you've spoken. That is not the case if you speak with Carl Marchisotto of Nola (formerly worked for Dahlquist). That is not the case if you speak with Jim Winey of Magnepan. That is not the case if you speak with Neil Patel of Avalon. And so on and so on. There are, of course, exceptions. Like Roger Russell. He uses Cardas cable with his IDS speakers and will tell you he did that just to sell more speakers. As I acknowledged earlier, there are some guys who just want to make a buck.


...no conspiracies, just good old American business flim-flammery...I know it exists...you know it exists...anyone with an intelligence level above that of a bowl of fruit knows it exists.
Lots of hand waving going on here.


how many folks would dig into their brand new, under-warranty gear to replace a hard-wired power cord?
I confess you lost me there. All audio components today that are worth a damn use IEC sockets - and some, like my CD player, didn't even supply a cord (although they would happily provide a POS if requested. They told me no one does because their customers choose to benefit from using an aftermarket one) My $59 Toshiba DVD player has a removable cord. My NAD receiver uses a removable cord. Even a $200 Panasonic HT receiver uses a removable cord.

rw

[Resident Loser]

That's why I asked you to whom you've spoken. That is not the case if you speak with Carl Marchisotto of Nola (formerly worked for Dahlquist). That is not the case if you speak with Jim Winey of Magnepan. That is not the case if you speak with Neil Patel of Avalon. And so on and so on. There are, of course, exceptions. Like Roger Russell. He uses Cardas cable with his IDS speakers and will tell you he did that just to sell more speakers. As I acknowledged earlier, there are some guys who just want to make a buck

...you mean to tell me these designers allow for whatever changes to the overall circuit parameters Joe Audio might be capable of in a bi-wiring scenario...or do they assume everyone is bi-wiring, leaving those who don't the odd-man-out? Actually I'd say Roger Russell is the honest one and your POV is bass-ackwards...


Lots of hand waving going on here.

No, just calls 'em like I sees 'em...


I confess you lost me there. All audio components today that are worth a damn use IEC sockets - and some, like my CD player, didn't even supply a cord (although they would happily provide a POS if requested. They told me no one does because their customers choose to benefit from using an aftermarket one) My $59 Toshiba DVD player has a removable cord. My NAD receiver uses a removable cord. Even a $200 Panasonic HT receiver uses a removable cord.

rw

As I said, a manufacturing economy...or do you actually think Toshiba or Panasonic expect folks to replace the OEM PCs with a Shunyata offering?

And while I cant be certain, are they actually IEC configured or just removable? I know my new Panny dvd recorder is the latter.

"Choose to benefit"? Man, I am in stitches on that one, gettin' really deep around here...

Point was, if they were still hardwired and things hadn't gone IEC would there even be such a market?

jimHJJ(...I'd venture no...)

[E-Stat]

...you mean to tell me these designers allow for whatever changes to the overall circuit parameters Joe Audio might be capable of in a bi-wiring scenario...or do they assume everyone is bi-wiring, leaving those who don't the odd-man-out?
There are always clueless users of products who miss the boat. You design the product for optimum use.


As I said, a manufacturing economy...
It is these comments to which I responded, "how many folks would dig into their brand new, under-warranty gear to replace a hard-wired power cord?

Actually, quite a few folks have used aftermarket power cords with their Tosh units over at AA. There are adapters for the various IEC plugs such as this (http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=6626).



And while I cant be certain, are they actually IEC configured or just removable? I know my new Panny dvd recorder is the latter.
Both. My Tosh DVD uses the SPT-2 flavor which is likely what is on your Panny.

http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/wallwarts/linecords/6ft-gray-fig8-conn.jpg


Point was, if they were still hardwired and things hadn't gone IEC would there even be such a market?
Only for those interested in high performance audio.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...where were we...oh yeah...


There are always clueless users of products who miss the boat. You design the product for optimum use.

So they design the loudspeakers specifically with bi-wiring in mind nowadays? I dunno', with all the possible permutations available, the last thing I'd do would be to allow some tweak-O-phile to futz with my crossover design (which is exactly what they are doing BTW)...I mean how does one account for the average Joe who runs two pairs of lampcord vs. the guy who spends $xxx/ft on the latest and greatest...It goes back to the levels of offerings from these wire companies, which infers that increased price is indicative of better performance...Caveat emptor as the saying goes...


It is these comments to which I responded, "how many folks would dig into their brand new, under-warranty gear to replace a hard-wired power cord?

Actually, quite a few folks have used aftermarket power cords with their Tosh units over at AA. There are adapters for the various IEC plugs such as this (http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=6626).

Well, other than the porn and bad recipes, the interweb is a grand old place...Always something new to learn about...Sometimes these threads prompt me to investigate things I am not familiar with; other times the resultant surfing only reinforces my POV...and yup, there are such adapters...from about $25 bucks on up, depending on configuration...In fact one site claims all their stuff is "cryogenically treated in cold fusion" ?????? I won't even touch that one, I'm nearly dizzy from shaking my head...

Another site has you replacing the female, panel-mount, IEC connector, claiming it will provide a "warmer" sound...Zip-a-dee-doo-dah...and we are supposed to take this stuff seriously? That's the reinforcing stuff, onward and upward...Let's not even go to the folks at AA...


Both. My Tosh DVD uses the SPT-2 flavor which is likely what is on your Panny.

http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/wallwarts/linecords/6ft-gray-fig8-conn.jpg

Actually, I thought something was amiss re: your SPT-2 designation, something rang a bell, reminding me of a previous exchange...The IEC connectors usually have a "C" prefix and the ones I deal with are usually of the C13/C14 type...the three conductor, ground-pin type.

The SPT label is simply Service Parallel Thermoplastic, a wire-type identifier. The numerical suffix -1, -2, -3 indicates the thickness of the insulation...none of which seems to have any particular IEC connotation...However, and here's the learning part, your photo is of an IEC non-polarized C7 connector,,,you can tell it's non-pol'd due to the fact that the connector is not "keyed", both conductor surrounds are round, My Panny uses the polarized version; one surround is round, the other squared-off...


Only for those interested in high performance audio.

The nub of my gist being, without the manufacturing economy afforded by the IEC connector, there would be no market, except for the fringe-O-philes who may have some talent with tools and a soldering gun...I say knock yerself out...However, with the IEC standardization accidentally creating that "void", any schmoe can buy into the dream, think they hear a night and day difference or patiently wait for the "burn-in" epiphany to happen and the word-of-mouth, anecdotal accolades build and round and round it goes and it comes out here!

So now I know I can run right out and purchase a 3/4" thick power cord with a C13 connector, which weighs in at about 1.16lbs per linear foot...spend another $25-55 for a C13 to C7 adapter and stick it in the backside of a device that probably doesn't weigh in at half the weight of the line cord itself...ahhh progress...

jimHJJ(...is this a great country or what?...)

[E-Stat]

I dunno', with all the possible permutations available, the last thing I'd do would be to allow some tweak-O-phile to futz with my crossover design (which is exactly what they are doing BTW)...I mean how does one account for the average Joe who runs two pairs of lampcord vs. the guy who spends $xxx/ft on the latest and greatest.
So...if "wire is wire" as you frequently opine, then how does Joe "futz" with the crossover by selecting your favorite, lampcord?

rw

[Resident Loser]

So...if "wire is wire" as you frequently opine, then how does Joe "futz" with the crossover by selecting your favorite, lampcord?

rw

...you had posted:


...You design the product for optimum use...

Do keep in mind the requisite qualifier "...of similar length and gauge"...

What do the designers suggest for optimum results?

Do they specify length?

Gauge?

Anything?

Again, given the extremes of everything that might get wired-up, from parallel lengths of 20ga. bell wire...to DIY CAT5...to networked inclusions, there will be wide latitude in resistance, impedance, capacitance, inductance, reluctance, reactance and all the other -ance in yer pants, not to mention the potential for RFI/EMI issues...and it does become part of the Xover...way different from a coupla' inches of jumper with fixed parameters...As a designer you have surrendered control.

With these near-ubiquitous, marketeering weasel-words "Contact your dealer for wiring suggestions"...the consumer has surrendered his wallet...

jimHJJ(...yeah, I know, more conspiracy...)

[E-Stat]

What do the designers suggest for optimum results?
Ask. Most manufacturers and dealers don't bite.


With these near-ubiquitous, marketeering weasel-words "Contact your dealer for wiring suggestions"...the consumer has surrendered his wallet.
I confess that I don't share your paranoia. I had the good fortune of spending some time with Dr. Roger West of SoundLAB last spring at an audio meeting. He is a soft spoken gentleman who is not in the wire or electronics business and provided honest, unvarnished opinions.

You need to find a better manufacturer or dealer.

rw

[GMichael]

Ask. Most manufacturers and dealers don't bite.


I confess that I don't share your paranoia. I had the good fortune of spending some time with Dr. Roger West of SoundLAB last spring at an audio meeting. He is a soft spoken gentleman who is not in the wire or electronics business and provided honest, unvarnished opinions.

You need to find a better manufacturer or dealer.

rw

I would be interested to know what Dr Roger West had to say. Can you share?

[Feanor]

...

With these near-ubiquitous, marketeering weasel-words "Contact your dealer for wiring suggestions"...the consumer has surrendered his wallet...

jimHJJ(...yeah, I know, more conspiracy...)

For example my wishes-he-were dealer recommends spending 30+% of the cost of the speaker on wiring. Let me see: 40% markup on the speakers, 80% on the wires -- makes for an "expert opinion" no doubt. :ciappa:

[E-Stat]

I would be interested to know what Dr Roger West had to say.
Well, this particular topic of bi-wiring never came up because he primarily makes full range electrostats. There's nothing to bi-wire! His recommendation is to find a speaker cable with particularly low inductance given their low impedance drop at the top. Contrary to the feelings of these folks,

http://ia.ec.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/16/69/45m.jpg

he never made any brand recommendations to support Big Cable.

Like most engineers, his background on the effects of cabling and other passive parts was limited. His development work was clearly focused on improving the panel technology. It was his dealers who suggested he offer a factory "hod rod" backplate using Vishay resistors, Jensen caps, and Sledgehammer chokes after some users had already done this. (this is where RL will step in to cry foul). Initially, he resisted until he found out the incremental improvement such changes made to his otherwise excellent product. My U-1s are so equipped. A similar story exists with Ole Lund Christensen (formerly of GamuT).

Power cords from an engineering perspective (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=82382&highlight=lund+E-Stat&r=&session=)

rw

[GMichael]

Well, this particular topic of bi-wiring never came up because he primarily makes full range electrostats. There's nothing to bi-wire! His recommendation is to find a speaker cable with particularly low inductance given their low impedance drop at the top. Contrary to the feelings of these folks,

http://ia.ec.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/16/69/45m.jpg

he never made any brand recommendations to support Big Cable.

Like most engineers, his background on the effects of cabling and other passive parts was limited. His development work was clearly focused on improving the panel technology. It was his dealers who suggested he offer a factory "hod rod" backplate using Vishay resistors, Jensen caps, and Sledgehammer chokes after some users had already done this. (this is where RL will step in to cry foul). Initially, he resisted until he found out the incremental improvement such changes made to his otherwise excellent product. My U-1s are so equipped. A similar story exists with Ole Lund Christensen (formerly of GamuT).

Power cords from an engineering perspective (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=82382&highlight=lund+E-Stat&r=&session=)

rw

Thanks E,

I'll read up, but wire upgrades will have to wait until I have speakers that can tell the difference. Wouldn't want to spend too much on a supercharger to install on my Pinto.

[Resident Loser]

...the learning experience continues...


Well, this particular topic of bi-wiring never came up because he primarily makes full range electrostats. There's nothing to bi-wire! His recommendation is to find a speaker cable with particularly low inductance given their low impedance drop at the top. Contrary to the feelings of these folks,

http://ia.ec.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/16/69/45m.jpg

he never made any brand recommendations to support Big Cable.

Like most engineers, his background on the effects of cabling and other passive parts was limited. His development work was clearly focused on improving the panel technology. It was his dealers who suggested he offer a factory "hod rod" backplate using Vishay resistors, Jensen caps, and Sledgehammer chokes after some users had already done this. (this is where RL will step in to cry foul). Initially, he resisted until he found out the incremental improvement such changes made to his otherwise excellent product. My U-1s are so equipped. A similar story exists with Ole Lund Christensen (formerly of GamuT).

Power cords from an engineering perspective (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=82382&highlight=lund+E-Stat&r=&session=)

rw

Somewhere between one extreme and the other dwells the truth...or at least something closely resembling it...

While I'm fairly certain that if I searched long and hard enough I'd find some endorsements or more egregious examples of one hand washing the other, so the good Doctor is not among them...which means what prezackly? That the practice doesn't exist? It does, but sometimes it's subtle and done in most covert and non-committal manner...

So the tweakier Soundlab customers told the dealers, who told the mfr., "Hey, you should do this and this, cuz it will appeal to that niche group"...OK, well given the fact that their products seem to be virtually hand-built and commensurately priced it's not a stretch IMO...If you decide to use components that conform to tighter tolerances and have better quality control, I'd expect to see (or more accurately hear) a difference, and the pricing difference at that level isn't going to present a problem...I mean they are selling a pair of show demo models for nearly $19K, that MSRP @ $26K...in that rarefied atmosphere what's a few hunnert more for Vishays et al?...If you take a look at the description of the U-1s, they claim to welcome the customer's input, and I quote:

"Some of the suggestions have been of a nature that would not appeal to the majority. Nevertheless, for those few who must "go all the way" we have devised the Ultimate series. The customer is invited to assist in choosing some of the critical parts, such as the type of internal conductors and speaker posts. The color of the framework and the type of grille treatment are other areas in which the customer may participate. In other words, the Ultimate is a specialized, customized product that bears the trademark of the owner."

I'll take a guess that whatever you would like to pay for, as long as it doesn't sully the brand's image or sonics, is OK...

Then, of course, there is GamuT...who states:

"For further improvements to the level of sound quality, various types of mains cable type may be tested. Like the importance of any other cable in the system, the quality and refinement of the mains cable has influence on the total balance of the sound. Please feel free to experiment with the various brands available in your country. Please note that GamuT cannot accept responsibility for damage incurred due to improper usage, connection, or manufacture of other cables than the enclosed."

Both quotes, IMO, are of a most onerous type; neither is a ringing endorsement nor do they upset the applecart...much like the use of aftermarket wiring, it's subject to interpretation. BTW, by their own admission, GamuT uses some components and semi-conductors from those esoteric manufacturers Motorola and Philips...

And just to show that my POV is not all that one sided, another quote from GamuT:

"The current in the mains power cable is a very distorted version of the signal, and it contains very high frequencies.

A special power cable can reduce radiation of interference, and it can improve your sound quality."

Note that these last two lines are not from the manual proper, but from subject matter contained therein with the heading of Interesting Trivial Facts...Wiggle room?

My argument: If the PC can be seen as a signal generator and that "special power cable" can attenuate it's effects, what happens at the outlet? In the wiring to said outlet? Back at the circuit junction? Isn't that "distorted version of the signal" everywhere, all down the line?

jimHJJ(...just some info and a question...)

[E-Stat]

so the good Doctor is not among them...which means what prezackly?
Find manufacturers in whom you can replace your paranoia with trust. (Don't think Bose is going to qualify there) Of the components I own, I have met Dr. West, Luke Manley, Bill Johnson, and through a reviewer friend have communicated with Harry Weisfeld and Ole Lund Christensen. These are all nice guys who are in the business because they share a common passion.


So the tweakier Soundlab customers told the dealers, who told the mfr., "Hey, you should do this and this, cuz it will appeal to that niche group".
I'll restate your cynical comment. The more passionate customers told the dealers who told the mfr there are audible benefits to adding these improvements to your find product.


...in that rarefied atmosphere what's a few hunnert more for Vishays et al?.
Indeed, a $950 enhancement to a $32k speaker is relatively insignificant. That does NOT mean, however, that it is merely a fashion statement. On the contrary, the only way to visibly know the difference is to take the backplates apart.


And just to show that my POV is not all that one sided...
It is merely speculation from the bench. The experience is far more rewarding.


My argument: If the PC can be seen as a signal generator and that "special power cable" can attenuate it's effects, what happens at the outlet? In the wiring to said outlet? Back at the circuit junction? Isn't that "distorted version of the signal" everywhere, all down the line?
Perhaps now you are really beginning to understand the question. Power line villains are found in every modern house. Since you are averse to such devices as cable boxes and cell phones, your case is likely not as bad as most others.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...why you have done it, but this is the second time...that is, to link Bose with my supposed "paranoia and/or mistrust"...generally speaking I'm certainly not a victim of the former and insofar as the latter is concerned, any mistrust (of the suits in general) is simply a product of my overall misanthropic philosophy of "expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed"...

In any event, my relationship (for lack of better words) with Bose is IME beyond reproach...I've owned my 901-lls for well over 35 yrs. now and they have provided me with what I'd term as excellent performance...So much so, that when I decided to go four-channel (actually ambiance recovery) back in the late 70s/early 80s, I purchased a pair of 301-lls for my rears/surrounds...and when I opted for some extension speakers in my bedroom I installed a pair of 101s with their optional brackets...and when I won my WaveRadio in a local retailers promotional contest, I thought "how cool is that"...I certainly wouldn't pay that much for a clock-radio, but it does surprisingly well for it's small footprint.

Insofar as customer service is concerned they have been first-rate IMHO...When I requested a schematic and wiring diagram for the 901s Active Equalizer they mailed the freebie right out...when the surrounds on my 301s began to deteriorate, they offered to sell me the latest vintage models as replacements for the price I'd paid 12 or so years earlier...

Other than applying contact cleaner, replacing a burned-out neon indicator and the left and right output caps in the EQ, I've had no other problem with any Bose product...not bad for the time frame, eh? Fortunately, most of my gear has given me years of continued service.

In fact, in all my audio experience the only thing that has left a bad taste in my mouth, has been my encounter with "esoteric" after-market speaker wires in the form of those oft-mentioned Polk Cobras...How's that for a hoot? And in hindsight, it's just a live-and-learn experience...an object lesson in electrical engineering, no real animosity felt...

Anywho, now that we've sufficiently addressed my guilt-by-association and resultant character flaw...

Of the gentlemen you mentioned, we know one does speakers, another electronics, any of them in the wire business?...just curious...

And I never said those components were a fashion statement, just that if you hold your hardware to closer tolerances and higher QC levels you should reap some sonic benefit...


...Perhaps now you are really beginning to understand the question. Power line villains are found in every modern house. Since you are averse to such devices as cable boxes and cell phones, your case is likely not as bad as most others...

Now back to a discussion we've had before...for sake of argument, the power cords act as a transmission source of "...a very distorted version of the signal (that) contains very high frequencies..."

You install a shielded, IEC-configured replacement or some variation thereof. Thus, you have attenuated said radiated hash, but you haven't drained it off, you have simply reduced the range of the proximity effect. An effect, which as per the laws of physics, has a finite axial range...But, it's only diverted, you've simply blocked it's radiation longitudinally and essentially "walled it off" until it gets to the outlet and the wiring that feeds it...at that point it's free to run amuck, this "distorted version" is still there, dancing around in your electrical service, the common link to all your gear...

jimHJJ(...explain again how shielded power cords are the answer ...)

[FLZapped]

S-p-e-a-k-e-r---d-e-s-i-g-n-e-r-s---p-r-o-v-i-d-e---t-h-e---c-a-p-a-b-i-l-i-ty---b-e-c-a-u-s-e---i-t---s-o-u-n-d-s---b-e-t-t-e-r.

rw


Speaker designers do it because the marketing department tells them to.

-Bruce

[E-Stat]

Of the gentlemen you mentioned, we know one does speakers, another electronics, any of them in the wire business?...just curious.
I have not met Joe Skubinski of JPS Labs.


You install a shielded, IEC-configured replacement or some variation thereof. Thus, you have attenuated said radiated hash, but you haven't drained it off, you have simply reduced the range of the proximity effect.
Sure you have. That is what the drain wire of the shield does! Some AC cabling also has RC networks wired to them as well.


...at that point it's free to run amuck, this "distorted version" is still there, dancing around in your electrical service, the common link to all your gear.
This really shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp.

1. All audio components need to be shielded from the nasties in the AC.
2. My toaster doesn't care.

rw

[GMichael]

1. All audio components need to be shielded from the nasties in the AC.
2. My toaster doesn't care.

rw

Perhaps, or maybe your toaster DOES care, and it is YOU who does not care about the subtle difference it makes in your toast.

Sorry, had to be said.
I'll shut up now.

[E-Stat]

Perhaps, or maybe your toaster DOES care, and it is YOU who does not care about the subtle difference it makes in your toast.
Actually, you have a good point here. Cabling issues only matter to those who care about getting the highest resolution signal from their audio systems in the real world.

rw

[Resident Loser]

...to say that shielding a 10 ft. power cord for only half it's length will eliminate that "very distorted version of the signal" along it's enitre length? Or that connecting a 10 ft. shielded cord to an unshielded extension cord will somehow render the unshielded one less of a potential transmission source?


...Sure you have. That is what the drain wire of the shield does!...

jimHJJ(...hhmmm...and that ain't a ground loop...)

[GMichael]

Actually, you have a good point here.
rw

Who? Me? I made a good point?
Sorry about that. I'll be more carefull from now on.

[E-Stat]

...to say that shielding a 10 ft. power cord for only half it's length will eliminate that "very distorted version of the signal" along it's enitre length?
Where do you come up with these contrived straw man concepts? Who in the world said that? Like your "post conditioned AC" concept?

rw

[musicoverall]

Actually, you have a good point here. Cabling issues only matter to those who care about getting the highest resolution signal from their audio systems in the real world.

rw

Amen to that!

[Resident Loser]

Where do you come up with these contrived straw man concepts? Who in the world said that? Like your "post conditioned AC" concept?

rw

...no straw man...You seem to think that shielding a length of wire eliminates any problem ad infinitum...and beyond...that even though the shielding ends at the connector plugged into the outlet, something magically transforms such a combo into what is in essence some sort of brick-wall filter, segregating it from anything else plugged into the outlet and any other outlet controlled by the breaker, etc...If that were the case, we wouldn't have to worry about light dimmers, or refigerator compressors and other things that go bump in the loop...Hint: there's cr@p that travels through the conductors, that all the shielded power cords won't dissipate or eliminate...

jimHJJ(...hence my half-wrap/extension cord scenario...straw doesn't make a very good shield...)

[E-Stat]

...no straw man...You seem to think that shielding a length of wire eliminates any problem ad infinitum...and beyond...
No, that's not at all what I think. Call me crazy, but I find the approach of asking folks questions more time efficient...than starting with (always) incorrect wild assed guesses as to what they think. On to reality...

The effects of line induced nasties are most certainly cumulative. That's why I wired two clean lines to my listening room. That's why I don't use dimmers. That's why I use power conditioning. That's why I use shielded cables everywhere. Is that a complete solution? Probably not. The approach of sticking ones head in the sand and choosing not to attack the issue at any turn, however, doesn't sound like a solution to me.

BTW, for how many years have you been beating your wife?

rw

[Resident Loser]

No, that's not at all what I think. Call me crazy, but I find the approach of asking folks questions more time efficient...than starting with (always) incorrect wild assed guesses as to what they think. On to reality...

...that you and folks like you usually extol the virtues of of biwiring or aftermarket power cords as if they are some sort of panacea, which they are clearly not...with sarcastic and meaningless responses like >>>"...the shielded power cord is the line conditioner..."<<<...and yes I could search the archives for chapter and verse of that bit of wisdom, but I'm just too d@mn busy flogging the wife don't ya know...Unfortunately the noobs who read those bits and pieces of this shallow advice buy into the myth of the simple fix and wait for the epiphany of the accompanying miracle...

>>>such quotes are the source of my "wild @$$ed guesses"<<<


...That's why I use power conditioning...

WHOA!...I thought you said power conditioners coupled with amps in particular are a no-no, that you don't use them and that, to paraphrase: shielded power cord's are the line conditioner...Which is it? Keep in mind, some of us are taking notes...


...That's why I use shielded cables everywhere....

Which are useful to ameliorate some proximity effects, just not line-borne ones...see the above paragraph if further explanation seems to be required...


...The approach of sticking ones head in the sand and choosing not to attack the issue at any turn, however, doesn't sound like a solution to me...

Actually, seems like I'm attacking the issue at every turn...In fact I'm looking for some cohesive answer which seems, unfortunately, to be less and less forthcoming...

jimHJJ(...wonder why that might be?...)

[Rich-n-Texas]

This thread is soooo educational on soooo many levels. :thumbsup:

E-Stat's getting ready to reply...

[E-Stat]

...that you and folks like you usually extol the virtues of of biwiring or aftermarket power cords as if they are some sort of panacea...
You haven't let me down. I knew that this post would include at least one more completely groundless and unsubstantiated claim. Cite the source of my comments that lead to your perception.


which they are clearly not...with sarcastic and meaningless responses like >>>"...the shielded power cord is the line conditioner..."<<<
Refer to this post (http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=187636&postcount=83) to answer your question once again.


Unfortunately the noobs who read those bits and pieces of this shallow advice buy into the myth of the simple fix and wait for the epiphany of the accompanying miracle.
So - your advice is don't do anything at all that could benefit your system. Here's an example of mine. (http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=168349&postcount=9)


WHOA!...I thought you said power conditioners coupled with amps in particular are a no-no, that you don't use them and that, to paraphrase: shielded power cord's are the line conditioner...Which is it? Keep in mind, some of us are taking notes...
Is that a promise? :) I really wish you were taking notes so I didn't have to constantly remind you of what I have actually said. I stated my opinion in the previously cited post and here's (http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=188688&postcount=111) another. This is really getting tedious.



Actually, seems like I'm attacking the issue at every turn...In fact I'm looking for some cohesive answer which seems, unfortunately, to be less and less forthcoming.
I'm not at all surprised given your demonstrated level of retention.


...wonder why that might be?...)
Dunno. Selective memory on your part?

rw

[Resident Loser]

...of the citations you say the power cord is the conditioner and in the remaining one you suggest using a power conditioner...Do you mean a real line conditioner this time?

Source of my perceptions? I'd say it's your overall body of work...

You may want to be a bit more precise in your nomenclature...a shielded power cord is just that: cordage which is shielded...well, except in your case, of course, where you have used some Belden fire-alarm wire (again, a wire designed to be physically installed and surface-mounted) with a couple of Seymour and Pass (?) connectors...Neither really a conditioner, at least in my definition of such...It really doesn't "condition" anything AC-wise, simply deals with radiated energy from adjacent unshielded cables...

As opposed to a filter arrangement that deals with line-borne RFI usually in the 100kHZ- 100mHz range...as opposed to an actual, stand-alone line conditioning/UPS device...

And again, I'm sure that the majority of readers with their Yamaha HT receivers and Klipsch speakers will reap great benefit from any "esoteric" wiring of any sort...

jimHJJ(...yup, real positive 'bout that...)

[E-Stat]

...of the citations you say the power cord is the conditioner and in the remaining one you suggest using a power conditioner...Do you mean a real line conditioner this time?
As previously stated, I use both. Some of the cords use RC networks which qualify them as conditioners. (hint: the DIY 83803 flavor does not)


Source of my perceptions? I'd say it's your overall body of work.
You continue to misjudge me based on something other than what I've actually said.


Neither really a conditioner, at least in my definition of such...It really doesn't "condition" anything AC-wise, simply deals with radiated energy from adjacent unshielded cables.
I honestly wonder why you repeatedly choose to argue with the wall. I say concept A. You fabricate concept B:

"...to say that shielding a 10 ft. power cord for only half it's length..."
"You seem to think that shielding a length of wire eliminates any problem ad infinitum."
"...you and folks like you usually extol the virtues of of biwiring or aftermarket power cords as if they are some sort of panacea"

and then proceed to argue against...your own imagination. Strange.

rw

[StevenSurprenant]

From my own experience...

Bi-Wiring did not have much of an effect, but then I didn't try everything.

What did seem to make an improvement is to replace the brass jumper between the woofer and tweeter with wire. I used copper and also DH Labs Q10 wires of which the Q10 made the greatest improvement.

I even went to two similar amps which sounded the same as a single amp. This was with B&W 601's.

I also tried different single wires on the B&W's and the Quads. Each wire had it's own sound, but for the quads, the Nordost seemed to work best. For the B&W's, CAT 5 seemed to work fine.

That was years ago...

Lately, I went to using a Behringer DCX digital crossover powering Newform tweeters and SEAS mid woofers through a Panasonic XR25.

Now that was sweet!

Of course, everything is bi-wired and bi-amped.

Wanting to go passive on these homebrews, I began trying different capacitors on the tweeter.

With the stock cap that came with the tweeters, the soundstage all but disappeared. I then tried Audio Cap Theta and they sounded much like the active crossover, but then I went to Mundorf Silver Oil and the results were amazing. I'm still getting goose bumps. I am still running active on the mid woofer.

The moral of the story is...

1) Replace the jumper with wire. Try different types including silver.
2) Replace the stock caps in your crossover with different ones. Note: Do not modify your crossover, but instead use the same values that B&K used. This will void any warranty you have on your speakers.

This, I believe will give you the most bang for your buck.

There is also one more thing that I didn't mention. You could bi-amp/wire using different types of amps on your woofer and tweeter. This is expensive and if you do this, you might as well go active.


You may have noticed that on this forum, every time wire is mentioned, a feeding frenzy starts up. Don't let that dissuade you. Try bypassing the jumpers between your woofer and tweeter and if you find that it makes an improvement, then proceed. If you don't hear anything different then you've only lost out on a few cents.

As for bi-wiring using the methods you suggested, I've tried both with minimal or no improvement.

Enjoy