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Luis31
02-19-2004, 02:27 PM
Hello Wooch,

I am currently looking to upgrade from a Paradigm PW-2200 subwoofer. I often read the threads on these forums and am aware you own an Adire Audio Rava subwoofer. I visited their website and most say, I was impressed with their current line of subwoofers. I am always skeptical of buying audio equipment without auditioning it first. I'm guessing you are familiar with Paradigm subs as well.

The 2 Adire Audio subs that caught my attention are the Rava SE and the Dharman. How do these subs compare to the PW-2200? Would you consider them "upgrades" over the PW-2200? If not, your recommendations are also welcomed.

I do 50/50 HT and music and the rest of my setup consists of Paradigm Reference Studio 80's, 20's (version 2...), CC-570, ADP-370 v3, Denon AVR-5803, and Rotel RMB-1075 amplifier. My room is "fairly" large...

Thanks,

-Luis

Woochifer
02-19-2004, 06:30 PM
Sorry, not all that familiar with Paradigm's subs. I only briefly heard the PW-2200 and Servo 15 a couple of years ago, and they seemed fine to me.

I went with the Adire Rava mainly because I didn't have a lot of spare income to invest in a sub, and based on my own research I knew I wanted to go with a sealed box sub rather than the more common ported designs. I don't normally buy stuff without hearing it first, but at the time I bought the Rava, there weren't any options in my price range that met my criteria. Also, the room acoustics affect low frequencies a lot more than other frequencies, so comparisons done in different rooms with different setups are not really valid, so I felt it was worth the gamble. Since then, both B&W and Atlantic Technology have come out with sealed subs in the $500 range, so those would have been under strong consideration if they'd been available back then.

Between the Rava SE and the Dharman, that would really depend on how you intend to use your system. The Rava SE is really more for use with two-channel separates because it uses a higher quality low pass crossover designed to go between the preamp and amp. It does not have a high pass crossover that connects to the speaker output, and with a home theatre setup where the receiver does the bass management, the benefits with the SE's crossover would be lost. Dan Wiggins, the CEO of Adire e-mailed me on this when I was choosing between the Rava and Rava SE, and he recommended going with the regular Rava if I was going to let the receiver handle the bass management. The Dharman is a ported box sub designed for high output home theatre use. Might be a good option for you since you have a large room. However, I'm not really sure how much of an upgrade the Dharman might be over the PW-2200 since that unit also has fairly high output and deep extension.

A more logical upgrade would probably be the Adire Daeva, which is basically a 15" version of the Rava. Right now, Adire's waiting for the new version of the plate amp used on that model to come out, so it's on backorder. But, you might want to contact Adire and see if they can build something for you using a different amp. In general, Adire's more of a DIY supplier than a maker of finished speakers.

Another option is to contact Acoustic Visions (and they host Adire's support boards). They are one of Adire's resellers and will let you specify which driver and amp you want, and they'll build the unit for you.

With all that said, a more short-term option (and what I would recommend before you do anything) is to invest in a SPL meter, bass tone test disc, and parametric equalizer. This would address any problems that you might have with room acoustics and lets you tune your current subwoofer so that its in-room response is as optimal as possible. And in actuality, this would probably give you a much bigger improvement than just swapping out subwoofers can. Any room deficiencies you have will affect any subwoofer that you buy, so it's better to remedy these issues now and then decide whether or not you need a new sub, rather than buying a whole new subwoofer without even checking on any room-induced problems first.

Luis31
02-23-2004, 12:05 PM
Thanks for the info on the Adire Audio subs. As you suggested at the end of your post, I've already done the whole SPL meter and test tone cd thing to find that "sweet" spot to place the subwoofer and it turned out to be along the front wall between my left-main speaker and my TV. Simply, that's where I obtained best "in-room" response, no bumps at specific frequencies, no overemphasis, just right... lucky me!

I actually have 2 HT/music systems in my house, one downstairs in the family room, the other, upstairs in a dedicated "game room" (which is the best system of the two...). This is also where I had the Paradigm PW-2200 sub. Downstairs, I had the Hsu Research VTF-2. I used to think the PW-2200 "should be" a better (at least slightly...) performer than the VTF-2. A 250W RMS amp with a front-firing ported design 12" driver on the PW-2200 versus a 150W RMS amp with a downward-firing ported 10" driver on the VTF-2.

Well, looks and specs sure can be deceiving...

I decided to move the VTF-2 to the "upstairs" system, re-tested, re-calibrated resulting on the same placement (along the front wall between my main left speaker and TV/stand...) and WOW! The VTF-2 "smoked" the PW-2200. It simply plays lower and with more authority. This is amazing when taking price on each sub into consideration. The VTF-2 can be bought directly from Hsu Research for $449 + shipping, while the PW-2200 goes for $799. The VTF-2 extended better into the lower octaves.

I recently found a datasheet online on subwoofer output tests done by Tom Nousaine which included dozens of subs from major manufacturers including the PW-2200 and the VTF-2. It actually explained what I experienced with these 2 subs. According to Tom Nousaine findings, both the VTF-2 and the PW-2200 had similar output in the 25Hz-60Hz range @ 109Db with less that 10% distortion. However, the PW-2200 output at 20Hz averaged 84-86Db, while the VTF-2 averaged 93-96Db.

So, I guess I don't need a new sub after all. I moved the VTF-2 permanently to my "reference" system.

Thanks again for your response,

-Luis

Worf101
02-23-2004, 01:26 PM
Well, looks and specs sure can be deceiving...

I decided to move the VTF-2 to the "upstairs" system, re-tested, re-calibrated resulting on the same placement (along the front wall between my main left speaker and TV/stand...) and WOW! The VTF-2 "smoked" the PW-2200. It simply plays lower and with more authority. This is amazing when taking price on each sub into consideration. The VTF-2 can be bought directly from Hsu Research for $449 + shipping, while the PW-2200 goes for $799. The VTF-2 extended better into the lower octaves.

I recently found a datasheet online on subwoofer output tests done by Tom Nousaine which included dozens of subs from major manufacturers including the PW-2200 and the VTF-2. It actually explained what I experienced with these 2 subs. According to Tom Nousaine findings, both the VTF-2 and the PW-2200 had similar output in the 25Hz-60Hz range @ 109Db with less that 10% distortion. However, the PW-2200 output at 20Hz averaged 84-86Db, while the VTF-2 averaged 93-96Db.

So, I guess I don't need a new sub after all. I moved the VTF-2 permanently to my "reference" system.



Now you know why I own both the VTF-2 and VTF-3 and have been quite happy with them. I've no intention of changing unless HSU come's out with a remote controlled version of either one. And HSU service and support, outstanding.... glad you found what you needed, right in front of you.

Da Worfster :D

Luis31
02-23-2004, 01:38 PM
You're absolutely right, Worfster...

What the "heck" was I thinking buying the PW-2200 (not a bad sub, but not as good a value...) since I was already a satisfied owner of a Hsu Research customer (Hsu, SVS, Adire can't go wrong with these subs "value/performance" wise...).

In actuality, I was ready to purchase a VTF-3 but they were out-of-stock at the time.

-Luis