How does this setup sound?

[pomko]

Hello I'm kind of new here so bear with me. Right now I have some old Pioneer mains driven by a decent Marantz pm 500 amp (also old). I just recently started to upgrade my system and this is where the Nad c541i cd player came from. So far I love it and am leaving it running 8 hours a day to break it in (although I'm not quite sure if thats a good idea.) But the thing is I'm not hearing what is supposed to be heard through my old speakers and amp and am in the market for replacement.
<br>This is where I need the advice of some of you pros. For my receiver I'm thinking about going with a either a Jolida SJ-502A tube, or the classic Marantz 2270. For my speakers, I am fighting with myself over two - The B&W 803 s3's or the Paradigm Reference Studio 60's. I like warm, clear sound and good imaging is also important in my music - Do you guys have any suggestions as to how I should go about doing this or if any of my mix-n-match equipment isn't right for the other? Any suggestions appreciated.

[JSE]

I would get the speakers first. They are definitely your weakest point and will give you the biggest improvement. As far as which speaker, get the ones you like best. Simple as that. I would however go listen to a bunch of speakers to get feel for what's out there. B&W and Paradigm are great speakers but there are also many other great speakers out there. Have fun and go listen to some speakers. If you are going to upgrade the amp, I
would do that last or at the same time.

By the way, I don't think there is a need to burn in your new CD player.

JSE

[mtrycraft]

Hello So far I love it and am leaving it running 8 hours a day to break it in (although I'm not quite sure if thats a good idea.) But the thing is I'm not hearing what is supposed to be heard through my old speakers and amp and am in the market for replacement.
.

No need to run it 8 hrs or any amount a day unless you are listening to it:)

Maybe you should try newer speakers first before you get another amp.

[topspeed]

Did I just say that?...

Your speakers are probably your biggest deficiency right now. I'm a tad confused on you speaker choices. Did you mean the B&W Nautilus 803 or the 603s3? There's a considerable difference in both price and performance (as in two 603s3's won't buy you ONE N803) so I was unclear on this. Considering the prices of Jolida's amps, I could very easily see it with the n803 otherwise it might be overkill for the 603s3.

Whatever you decide to go with, and there are literally hundreds of choices, make sure you audition the front end with the speakers. Some speakers like Maggies, Quad ESL's, and others can be notoriously vicious to amps, especially tubes. Matching tonal characteristics of amps and pre's with the speaker is half the fun. I use a Marantz 2230 on my bedroom system and for a 30 year old bugger, it still sounds terrific and looks very cool in a retro sorta way. Then again, brushed aluminum is hip now so it's as they say "Everything old is new again."

Good Luck

[pomko]

Thanks for the suggestions guys :D Ye I do listen to the cd player as it's in my room and I'm in and out of there all the time so I figure just leave it playing. Sorry for the confusion about the speakers - I meant the BW 603's not 803's (too expensive). I haven't heard many other speakers since many stores around here carry only the mass production stuff like infinity, bose, JBL and yamaha.
<br>
Are there more decent speakers in the price range of the 603's and Studio 60's that I should be aware of? Which company is known for which trait? I hate asking all these stupid questions, its just that I'm in college and saved up some chump change for a nice stereo setup over the years by using a rusted '88 maxima to attend a community college, so I want to buy something worth buying this time you know. When I transfer to a 4 year college I won't have much of anything to spend so I would like this setup to last.

[92135011]

Im gonna get Energy C1s.
They pretty good IMO. Price is not bad either. I think at the end a C1 or a C3 is cheaper than B&W 603s. Don't know the difference in sound though since I havent heard them one after the other.

...BUT! dont take my advice too seriously... I really don't know that much in the audio world :\ Sorta new to it (but im sure that I will only get into it some more)

One sales guy said to me "Once you hear better stuff, you can ONLY move up because nothing else sounds the same anymore."

[topspeed]

Are there more decent speakers in the price range of the 603's and Studio 60's that I should be aware of? Which company is known for which trait? I hate asking all these stupid questions, its just that I'm in college and saved up some chump change for a nice stereo setup over the years by using a rusted '88 maxima to attend a community college, so I want to buy something worth buying this time you know. When I transfer to a 4 year college I won't have much of anything to spend so I would like this setup to last.

Hey Pomko, the only "stupid" question is the one that goes unasked. Don't worry about it.

There are a lot of good speakers in this price range and for Pete's sake, don't go with "which company is know for which trait!" The only opinion that matters is yours. Not Stereophile, TAS, or anybody else. What makes this hobby so great is that everyone has varying opinions on what "absolute fidelity" should sound like.

Here's what I'd recommend: Grab some of your favorite well recorded discs/LP's that you are very familiar with and listen, listen, and listen some more. In an ideal world, you would take the stuff home for an audition but if you can't do that, try to control the environment as much as possible by matching source components as much as you can. In other words, don't demo Paradigm Studios hooked up to an Adcom ss amp and then listen to the B&W's driven by ARC tubes. Get it?

FWIW, the 603s3 is very highly rated and you'd probably be very happy it. Others to consider are Boston, Definitive Technology, Magnepan (planers so be careful w/ amp choice), Infinity, Mission, onandonandon. If you go used, there's even more that are in your price range. Check out Audiogon.com. I'm looking into either Focal/JM Labs Chorus S or Von Schweikert VR1's for roughly the same $ hooked up to my 2230. However, it's all about personal taste, room acoustics, and what you listen to.

Good luck and buy what moves you.

[Dharris]

I was a lover of Paradigm speaks for years, still am. I was in the market for new monitor/bookshelves just recently. I wanted to upgrade from my Mini Monitor surround setup. I listened to many different brands including the Paradigm Studio 20's and 40's. At my last store, I listened to what I have always known as insane car audio brand. The Brand is MB Quart. WOW! Let me tell you, after listening to all the other comparable in size and price range, I use to think that Paradigm mini monitors were the best sound for the money till I heard the MB Quart QL-S 530. These speakers are incredibly accurate and image like crazy. The only downfall (if you consider this a downfall) is that they require lots of amp to power them for that they are 4 ohm @ 85 DB. If you have a chance to listen, do not pass it up.

[Dharris]

Im gonna get Energy C1s.
They pretty good IMO. Price is not bad either. I think at the end a C1 or a C3 is cheaper than B&W 603s. Don't know the difference in sound though since I havent heard them one after the other.

...BUT! dont take my advice too seriously... I really don't know that much in the audio world :\ Sorta new to it (but im sure that I will only get into it some more)

One sales guy said to me "Once you hear better stuff, you can ONLY move up because nothing else sounds the same anymore."

IMO, the Energy speakers are extremely brite compared to B&W.

[Mash]

"Some speakers like Maggies, ........... can be notoriously vicious to amps, especially tubes. "

Since when? Has Magnepan done something wierd I don't know about?

My Tympani present almost a simple resistive load to the amps, although they are revealing of poor amp sound. I have some MMG's in the bedroom, and they seem pretty easy on their amp. I am tempted to try the MMG's (with sub) on the Panasonic SA-HE100 I have in the kitchen. The Panasonic really sounds pretty good, and I bet it would have no porblem with the MMG's.

Besides, a good tube amp should have less trouble driving ANY speaker (unless the speaker resistance is simply too low for that particular tube amp) than ANY solid state amp would have with the same speaker. Solid state devices tend to pass more current as they get hotter which means they they got hotter and pass more current, i.e. thermal runaway. Tubes are the opposite.

[92135011]

Are C1s too bright?
from what I hear, Paradigm is even brighter! I havent listened to those though...

But...if you want BRIGHT!!!! i think the extreme example would be klipsch
cuts through steel. Even made me flinch

[pomko]

I appreciate the replys. So there are lots more speakers out there I didn't know about after all - Sometimes unfamiliar brands sound like they should be in the same class as a pair of BW's. So this brightness thing, I do hear it on some speakers I tested. Would there be a way to lessen it with proper wiring, besides the obvious- turing the treble down. I hear you don't get as much out of a system unless you use good speaker cable and good interconects. How do I know how much money to spend on cables? Is there a general rule of thumb like 'whatever your speaker costs your wires should be half of that cost' or something? I don't know it seems like the more you get into home audio the more complicated it becomes and sometimes I feel like just going out and buying a cheap shelf system - of course I'd never do that ;)

[JSE]

I appreciate the replys. So there are lots more speakers out there I didn't know about after all - Sometimes unfamiliar brands sound like they should be in the same class as a pair of BW's. So this brightness thing, I do hear it on some speakers I tested. Would there be a way to lessen it with proper wiring, besides the obvious- turing the treble down. I hear you don't get as much out of a system unless you use good speaker cable and good interconects. How do I know how much money to spend on cables? Is there a general rule of thumb like 'whatever your speaker costs your wires should be half of that cost' or something? I don't know it seems like the more you get into home audio the more complicated it becomes and sometimes I feel like just going out and buying a cheap shelf system - of course I'd never do that ;)


Don't get hung up on cables. Now need to spend big money on cables. Simple good build quality cables like Rat Shack Gold, AR, RCA Brand, Dayton, etc. will work fine. Read through the cable forum and it should all become more clear. Might take a look at Partsexpress.com for some good deals. They have a ton.

JSE

[Mash]

the hocus-pocus answer, or the straight answer?

Forget the expensive speaker wires and interconnects. OK, some people will spend several $1000's on their wires and interconnects, and it makes them happy. RS Gold interconnects and 12 AWG zip speaker wire are fine enough for any system. Why not simply buy better speakers with your extra money instead?

Magnepan
MMG $550 delivered
1.6 QR $1,600
3.6R $4,200
20.1R $12,000 (total killer)

There are some very very good panel electrostats available in the $2,400 to $4,600 range

Paradigm and Velodyne subs for $1200 to $1800 new, half as much used.

Bottom line: spend your money where it will do you some good.

[92135011]

instead of tweaking something else to make a speaker less bright...
why dont you just get another speaker!
the best way is to go right to the source

Every speaker sounds different so chances are that you will find one that will fit your needs.

[pomko]

Gotcha. I have decided to get the Paradigm Reference Studio 100 towers as they were used and sound good to my ears. This is the first version of these speakers, so they have the two bass drivers instead of three, which in my case doesn't realy make a difference since bass is not my top priority.

Now another question. Is it true that 60 watts of tube power is similar to 100 watts of solid state amp power :confused: For now I will be using my 60 watt Marantz amp to power these bad boys but will upgrade later so thats why I'm asking. I will buy a pair of gold RCA's from radio shack and I also have a basic idea of how to make some bi-wire speaker cable so I won't have to pay the ridiculous amount retailers want. I just want to say this site is a great way to learn about home audio in general and will enlighten you on how not to get ripped of at stores like about 60% of the public do. Thanks again guys! :p

[mtrycraft]

Now another question. Is it true that 60 watts of tube power is similar to 100 watts of solid state amp power :confused: [b/]


Nope, not true at all. Audio sillyness. 60 watts is 60 watts.


[b]For now I will be using my 60 watt Marantz amp to power these bad boys but will upgrade later so thats why I'm asking.

Why don't you just use the Marantz and see how well it performs. You may not have to upgrade at all.


I also have a basic idea of how to make some bi-wire speaker cable so I won't have to pay the ridiculous amount retailers want.


Why not just forget buy-wiring in the first place. It has no real sonic benefits either. I called Paradigm several times in the past about their test results for bi-wiring. They didn't test it even though they have a great research facility to have done it.
They just want to appease all audiophiles by their bi-wire statement in the speaker book.

[thepogue]

are they the v.1 or v.2? and just wondering what you paid fer them?...I have the v.2's. I'm very very happy for the price. I'm looking to move up to some ML's but I'm not sure if I'll ever get rid of the 100's...maybe use them with HT if I ever get the ML's...I'm also go with what Mtry said...at least fer a while...you'll be happy...then you'll need more...it's a sickness...no cure...but your on the right road I'd say!!! buy used!!! I've also go some Carver equiment if and when your ready to "move up"...good luck and fer God's sake....HAVE FUN!!!

[pomko]

Oh I'll definately have fun when I'll be throwing a party but it will soon come to an end when the cops come over around 9 or 10 and break it up then take all the beer :D But these 100's are v.1, so I think they are lighter and handle less power then the v.2's. I paid a grand for them, but it was hard earned, well spent money and if I ever decide to upgrade in the near future I don't think I'd lose THAT much if I decide on selling them. So far so good though with the Marantz amp. I have a an old Akai (??) amp in my attic thats also rated around 60 watts so I gotta see whats that like. Oh and I am listening to a bunch of cd's over again to see what I've been missing and loving every minute of it :p :p