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barnabasvictor@yahoo.com
05-06-2007, 07:07 PM
Hello ,

This is my first post in this forum. Let me explain a bit about me. I am not a audiophile or a someone who knows a lot about audio components. But, I am technically inclined person and understand technical things and I also like good sound. I am looking at a basic audio system, 5.1 HT receiver and book shelf Speakers for under 600 USD. My previous equipment include SONY amp and speaker and 5 CD changer which was OK, but far from impressive. In terms of building my new system

My question is.
1. Should I decide on the receiver and then pick a suitable speaker or the other way

2. Do you have any recommendations for any particular brand

I have more questions, but will ask them based on the suggestions given by the folks in the forum. thanks for the help.

regards,
BVictor

aevans
05-06-2007, 07:17 PM
onkyo prepakage deal is the best stuff I've heard in the main stream audio world..

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ex44b4Qt5g9/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=37600&I=580HTS800B

at 500 bucks it's everything but the tv and dvd player and it sound good.

if you want a very nice dvd player that matches - good analog and digital sound this is it:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ex44b4Qt5g9/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=53100&I=580DXC390

My brother has the same setup and it's very good sound, even in stereo mode it sounds like close to a $5000 system

barnabasvictor@yahoo.com
05-06-2007, 07:36 PM
Hi aevans

Thanks for the info on the ONKYO HT system.. Seems like a good deal. I will keep that in mind. My concern is, does Onkyo speakers sound good. The other thing is that, I am not too keen on Home theater ( as video effect) I am more keen on a nice sounding system. So, I figured, I can get a decent receiver and 2 nice books shelf spks and later get a 2 nice tower speakers and use the book shelf as my side/rear speakers for my HT. How does that seem ? Thanks for your response.

regards,
BVictor

aevans
05-06-2007, 08:14 PM
I'd just get the onkyo, the speakers are really good for the price and I don't see getting a bunch of equipment to match that anywhere near the price range.

I don't buy speakers off the shelf, so I can't provide recommendations...

as for an amp/receiver if you want the best stereo sound I would get a class a solid state amp used off of ebay or in the paper. note most of these amps will need a preamp, so you are looking at a good amount of cash to drop.

I thought that the onkyo stuff would sound like ass as well, and I don't ever listen to surround sound.. so that was more of a distraction. the drivers and the matching are well done on the system and are really top notch for the price range. I would definately put them up againts polks and the like as it's just as capable as their more expensive sub/sat systems.

if you don't want the extra speakers just don't hook them up, I think the 5.1 stuff is retarded, so I know 7.1 is.. you can set the receiver for however many speaker you want to use.

DEVO
05-06-2007, 08:31 PM
Your better off looking in audiogon or craigslist for some used speakers. Those HTIB speakers won't give descent stereo sound. Onkyo has good receivers, but someone else built their speakers.
Retail, $500 it isn't a bad deal...but look around for someone getting rid of their old ones because their wife made them buy Bose!
Then find the receiver that matches their impedence and your needs.

Good Luck!

anamorphic96
05-06-2007, 09:29 PM
This Denon system can be found for less than the price listed. I have seen these at Costco for 499. Which is a great deal. The receiver and DVD player are quite good and can be easily mated with much better speakers in the future. HT magazine just did a big article where they used this system with 4 other speaker systems and achieved great results with all the speakers. The speakers it does come with are pretty darn good and sound better than the Onkyo speakers IMO.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/htib/denon-dht-487dv-home-theater-in-a-box-review

Resident Loser
05-07-2007, 11:21 AM
...a $600 HTIB or similarly priced gear is not going to sound like a $5000 system...The primary weak link will be the loudspeakers. Typical HTIB inclusions simply won't have low frequency extension or the ability to provide the SPLs of well chosen and matched individual components...It's simply a matter of cost vs. performance and simple physics...And power requirements are another matter entirely...

To the OP: Start with the loudspeakers and build from there...they will dictate your power requirements and the rest will follow...

jimHJJ(...FWIW...)

markw
05-07-2007, 11:42 AM
do you want a two channel system or a 5.1 HT system? With your budget you stand a better chance of getting good sound with a 2 channel system.

Once that's been resolved, choose speakers. They will determine what amps will work with them.

barnabasvictor@yahoo.com
05-07-2007, 11:59 AM
Yes, I would be very happy with a 2 channel audio system that has nice full range of sound, fills the living room and can increase the volume without sounding noisy. I honestly started looking at a 2ch system, but my friend suggested to get a HT receiver as I can scale it up later to a HT system if I want to.

All the response here are helpful in giving me different possible solutions and options. I am having a harder time at this that when I went thru the process of selecting my digital camera.:)

GMichael
05-07-2007, 12:00 PM
Speakers first. They will dictate what amps you can use.
I don't like the HTIB move. It will give you a matched set of speakers, but Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon, etc may make good receivers but don't make great speakers.
I do like the idea of starting with two good bookshelf's for now and then getting the matching towers etc later. Just make sure that you pick a pair that have a matching center available.
What speakers you pick out will partly decide what receivers or amps you can or can't use. Most 8 or 6 ohm speakers can be driven with most any receiver though. How good there are will depend on your ears and budget.
There are so many good speakers to choose from that it's hard to say, buy these or those. Some people will like one brand while another will hate them. So try to get out to as many speaker stores as you can and hear as many as you can before you pull the trigger. A little extra time here will pay off in the long run. If you can't get to any speaker stores for whatever reasons you have, there are a few online stores who will let you try their speakers for 30 days and then return them if you don't like them. Here are just one set of decent bookshelf speakers. As you can see, it would be easy to blow your whole budget on one set. So maybe that's a good way to approach it. A little now, and then more later when you have the cash.
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=2.1

http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=speakers&brand=3

This line is a little cheaper, but still nice.
http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=speakers&brand=55

Rock789
05-07-2007, 01:39 PM
speaker suggestions:
Focal JMLab Chorus 714S - tower (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1183248876)

Focal JM Lab Chorus 706S - bookshelf (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1182777065)

I have the 716S and 706S and both are very nice!
if you are debating a tower, $395 is a crazy deal for a new 714S

if you have no intention of upgrading to surround sound, look at a used integrated amp...
NAD, ADCOM, B&K would be some low price used suggestions

if you are looking for surround in the future,
check out pioneer, onkyo, denon, receivers... (heck, maybe even a panasonic although I have only read reviews, never auditioned one)
fyi, my brother got a nib pioneer 7.1 receiver on ebay for <$150 shipped... he's not an audiophile, but it does what he wants...
(when I hear it I can give a better review...)

DEVO
05-07-2007, 03:36 PM
Focals are VERY nice speakers, sound a little harsh to begin with (like all good speakers). Take about 70 hours to break in, but once they are warmed up they are awesome.

Rock789
05-07-2007, 04:13 PM
X2 on the 70 hour break in... maybe even longer... lol

bobsticks
05-07-2007, 04:17 PM
...a $600 HTIB or similarly priced gear is not going to sound like a $5000 system...The primary weak link will be the loudspeakers. Typical HTIB inclusions simply won't have low frequency extension or the ability to provide the SPLs of well chosen and matched individual components...It's simply a matter of cost vs. performance and simple physics...And power requirements are another matter entirely...

To the OP: Start with the loudspeakers and build from there...they will dictate your power requirements and the rest will follow...

jimHJJ(...FWIW...)

Holy role reversal, Batman! How often is it that jim comes off as the gearhead? :ihih:

barnabasvictor@yahoo.com
05-07-2007, 05:02 PM
Focals ...hmmm... I need to see if there is store that has them on display/demo.

A few days back, was at BB and listened to Bose 201, 301 and Klipsch book shelf and tower spks. He had it hooked to Yamaha and HK receiver. I liked the Yamaha better in the Receiver. HK sounded tin-ish, not sure why, or if it was not setup right. W.r.t speakers, Klipsch was more rounded and for the same size as Bose had more bass and seemed to have a presence in its sound quality. Bose sounded mild, nice and seemed to envelope better but seemed very superficial and not persistent. I like the Klipsch but wanted to check other brands too.

Based on the advise here, it seems to me to start with a good pair of speakers and then decide on the receiver.

PeruvianSkies
05-07-2007, 06:12 PM
Holy role reversal, Batman! How often is it that jim comes off as the gearhead? :ihih:

I caught that too! I thought maybe he stumbled across a personality lately and decided to keep it.

Mr Peabody
05-07-2007, 07:09 PM
If you have no interest in home theater, the suggestion of an integrated amp is the way to go for best sound quality. A Cambridge Audio, NAD or maybe Jolida would be much better than a HT receiver. If you think you might want HT, your route of getting receiver and bookshelf speakers and gradually expanding is the way to go.

I think you liked Yamaha better because the HK was better able to make the Klipsch sound the way they really do. But that is a good lesson as well on how pairing certain brands can yield a desired sound, or mask one undesired. You might seek out some Paradigm speakers to listen to, they are lively without sounding harsh. They are also a very good value. Some here have said the BB brands of Athena and Insignia are good budget speakers.

emorphien
05-07-2007, 08:42 PM
With a $600 budget you have a fair bit of options, but you'll probably want to consider what your after, and your room size (what is it btw?). You won't have a whole lot of great choices for floorstanders in that price range but that's not necessarily a problem.

Axiom and AV123 are internet direct brands that can offer a lot of bang for the buck. You could pair them with an Onkyo or HK stereo receiver for example. An integrated amp would be a better choice, but you'd probably have to go used for that. For that matter, used speakers can be a great deal too as you'll get a lot more for your money.

Resident Loser
05-08-2007, 05:38 AM
Holy role reversal, Batman! How often is it that jim comes off as the gearhead? :ihih:

...I'm not saying one needs to spend $5K...simply that, while it may be a perfectly satisfactory product, a $499.95 HTIB and the high-priced spread won't be in the same league on any number of levels; to even suggest it seems...a...er...overly optimistic...

My lo-ball suggestion would be an Onkyo MC35TECH mini-system and a Polk 10" powered sub...for the money <$500USD, IMHO it's a pretty neat set-up...is it going to rival a $5000 2ch stereo? For the most part, I am of the opinion it will do a very good job, within its' limtations...It won't shake the room and it won't make it sound like E. Power Biggs is doin' a Bach two-step on the floor pedals but, in the right room, with the right program material and at reasonable volume levels it will do a credible job.

jimHJJ(...just some clarification...)

Resident Loser
05-08-2007, 07:08 AM
I caught that too! I thought maybe he stumbled across a personality lately and decided to keep it.

...your village called, their idiot is missing...

jimHJJ(...and they seem to want you back...)

barnabasvictor@yahoo.com
05-08-2007, 07:14 PM
The room is a 12ft X 12ft in dimensions.

Here are a few more of my queries
1. I am assuming that the bookshelves will lack bass as compared to the floor standers. Is that right or is there more to it than that ?

2. Lot of the folks here have suggested Focals, Paradigm, Axiom, AV123. I havent see these at any store. Are these similar in sound quality to Klipsch or are they better.

3. What specification should I look in speakers if I need good clarity and well rounded audio quality at low volume. My Sony speakers sounded Ok when I turned it up, but reducing it to lower volume, it sounded awful. If this a real issue or is it just my ear, am not sure...

thanks for the responses

barnabasvictor@yahoo.com
05-08-2007, 07:21 PM
Oh, one more question

Does any sound come out of the side surround speaker when playing music CD's and plain audio ? Are the side speakers used only in HT ?

Mr Peabody
05-08-2007, 07:33 PM
Floorstanding speakers generally will play lower than bookshelf. Playing music at low level and having it sound good is more a job for the amp. In the price range you are looking at, I'd suggest getting something with a "loudness" control. This boosts certain frequencies at lower volume to maintain a full sound. I'm not aware of very many CD's that have multi-channel information but DVD, DVD-A & SACD all usually have some type of multi-channel playback.

Rock789
05-08-2007, 07:42 PM
The room is a 12ft X 12ft in dimensions.

Here are a few more of my queries
1. I am assuming that the bookshelves will lack bass as compared to the floor standers. Is that right or is there more to it than that ?

2. Lot of the folks here have suggested Focals, Paradigm, Axiom, AV123. I havent see these at any store. Are these similar in sound quality to Klipsch or are they better.

3. What specification should I look in speakers if I need good clarity and well rounded audio quality at low volume. My Sony speakers sounded Ok when I turned it up, but reducing it to lower volume, it sounded awful. If this a real issue or is it just my ear, am not sure...

thanks for the responses

1) A sub, when properly calibrated, will compliment a pair of bookshelves or towers...
with the Focal's I linked, the bookshelves have 6.5" mids so they do fairly well, and the towers have two 5.25 (I think) so they will also do well, but both could use a sub for bass lower than ~45hz imo...

2) Focal chorus S is not similar to paradigm's, which is not similar to klipsch... they all have their own sound...
if you are referring to the klipsch synergy series, imo, both the focal's I suggested and most paradigms would sound better... but if you are referring to the klipsch reference series (think thats what the better series is called), they are all on the same quality gounds... just a different sound, all in what you like...
imo, many paradigms are on the bright side and a little more forward compared to focal chorus s series...
I haven't auditioned any klipsch in a couple years, so I can't compare accurately, but both were in my audition list a few years back when I was building my system...

another speaker to audition is http://www.phasetech.com/
check out the Phase Velocity series... a little cheaper, and sound good imo


3) best suggestion here... audition, audition, audition!!!!
I think focal and paradigms sound good at low volume, but thats my opionion, you may think they sound like junk and the klipsch sounds much better at low volume...

on the topic of auditioning... the more the better... find out what type of speaker you like, and we can probably suggest several similar sound speakers to check out...

Rock789
05-08-2007, 07:54 PM
Oh, one more question

Does any sound come out of the side surround speaker when playing music CD's and plain audio ? Are the side speakers used only in HT ?
most surround receivers have the ability to make 2ch audio play on multi channels...
good for parties, bad for quality...

Rock789
05-08-2007, 08:01 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/Phase-Technology-V-8-SRP-250-00_W0QQitemZ110115706198QQihZ001QQcategoryZ14991QQ rdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

a little cheaper than the focals...

digital
05-09-2007, 01:11 AM
.


1. Should I decide on the receiver and then pick a suitable speaker or the other way

2. Do you have any recommendations for any particular brand

Answers:

1) Decide on any modern, well-built receiver, including any of the 'big names' such as Pioneer, JVC, Onkyo etc. first. All modern receivers have decent enough electronics within them, you'll not 'hear' a difference in the amplification stages (despite what forum-folk say, the truth is that no one has - ever - passed an unsighted audition showing that they could detect sound differences between amplification stage as long as the amps were not driven to clipping). Your decision on receiver will come down to features and aesthetics. My two cents worth: buy a used, one year old Pioneer Elite receiver.

2) There are (many) excellent loudspeakers on the market - recommendations come down to personal preferences - so you're bound to hear a hundred and one recommendations... My biased version: buy a used set of Paradigm Acoustics Reference Studio Series bookshelf monitors.

I suggest buying used because this damned hobby features some of the most amazing hardware depreciation on earth... I don't know what country you are in, but a great buy / sell site (with, unfortunately - a very 'cable-hocus-pocus' discussion forum), to check out might be the Canadian Canuck Audio Mart. It has a huge selection of kit at attractive prices, especially to you if you are in the States...

www.canuckaudiomart.com

Good luck - rock on!

Andrew D.

cdnav.com (www.cdnav.com)

:16:

.

bobsticks
05-09-2007, 01:05 PM
...I'm not saying one needs to spend $5K...simply that, while it may be a perfectly satisfactory product, a $499.95 HTIB and the high-priced spread won't be in the same league on any number of levels; to even suggest it seems...a...er...overly optimistic...

My lo-ball suggestion would be an Onkyo MC35TECH mini-system and a Polk 10" powered sub...for the money <$500USD, IMHO it's a pretty neat set-up...is it going to rival a $5000 2ch stereo? For the most part, I am of the opinion it will do a very good job, within its' limtations...It won't shake the room and it won't make it sound like E. Power Biggs is doin' a Bach two-step on the floor pedals but, in the right room, with the right program material and at reasonable volume levels it will do a credible job.

jimHJJ(...just some clarification...)

..."overly optimistic", how adroit and I'm sure you knew I was just messing about.

barnabasvictor, I am not familiar with the particular unit of which RL speaks but can attest to Onkyo's bang-for-the-buck value. I started off with one of their mini-systems before this silliness we call a hobby took full hold--now I eat Ramen noodles and give plasma with jrhymeammo on the weekends.

Worth checking out, no doubt.

Mr Peabody
05-09-2007, 03:58 PM
I disagree with Digital's post, as he stated some one might, but don't take my word for it, go to a store that carries Onkyo and select a brand like JVC or Pioneer, try to use same source and speakers, if you can't tell a difference, so be it, but you should easily be able to tell that Onkyo has more slam and control. It's because, there is, a difference in amp sections. To be able to tell better take a small Onkyo and compare it to a larger rated other brand, then scratch your head and wonder why the Onkyo still sounds stronger. I think you stated in an earlier post you heard a difference between Yamaha and HK. I have no idea why anyone with any experience with audio would still try to say there is no sound difference between gear. The difference may be subtle between certain brands but lumping JVC in with Onkyo is a big mistake, the difference should hopefully be apparent to anyone with close to normal hearing.

Rock789
05-09-2007, 05:28 PM
amps will perform differently at different frequencies...
a good amp performs near equally at all audible frequencies...
many amps I have seen will perform +or- 3db from 40hz - 18 khz... however there are many amps that don't even meat this...

I do not claim to know the specs of the receivers digital was comparing, but even if they do perform within decent specs, I highly doubt they perform equally...

digital
05-09-2007, 07:49 PM
Guys,

This is on the brink of turning into a diversion from the O.P.'s original question. Please refer to this site for my own as well as other's experiences on the topic we have inadvertently created.

http://cdnav.com/cdnav/viewforum.php?f=41&sid=f8697e7877b9beff4be9267852139384

O.P: Sorry bout’ that...

I stand by my comments that you should: not be concerned about the amplification stage, worry about looks and features and should blow the most cash on speakers, room treatments and music!

Andrew D.
www.cdnav.com

barnabasvictor@yahoo.com
05-09-2007, 09:28 PM
Today was at the only Audio store that carries Paradigm. He had B&W and Definitive. I barely made it to the store as he was closing. I asked him to demo me just a few speakers with the basic Yamaha. I feeling more inclined to the Yamaha (not decided on that though). Do you want to know how I felt about the Paradigm... Awesome is the word. It seems the store is stopping B&W and going to carry Klipsch. He asked me to come sometime next week when he will have the Klipsch on display. I also heard they are getting rid of the B&W for half price. Need to take a closer look at that too. But as of now, I am terribly impressed with the Paradigms and also the Yammy receiver seems to draw me. But I have not done a thorough audition of all the brands in the stores in town. Will be doing that shortly.

emorphien
05-09-2007, 10:26 PM
I'm no big fan of Paradigm or B&W but if he really is selling off B&W at half price, that's a deal worth checking out. Definitely audition them!

Mr Peabody
05-10-2007, 05:19 PM
I'm not a big B&W fan but I'd have to wonder about some one who would drop the line for Klipsch. Of course, dealers are in business to make money not to care about sound quality. B&W at a discount would be a real option. I said I'm not a fan but I'd use B&W over most any mass-market brand. In my opinion B&W's entry level stuff is pretty good compared to other brands that price but there are many other brands I prefer as you get into the higher dollar models.

barnabasvictor@yahoo.com
05-10-2007, 07:23 PM
well... BB had Klipsch, Bose, JBL, Sony, Yamaha and the like and among the lot Klipsch definitely sounded more rounded and worthy.

emorphien
05-11-2007, 05:22 AM
I'll agree I've never heard of anyone dropping B&W for a "lesser" brand like I suppose Klipsch is, but I do know of a shop dropping B&W in favor of carrying more Focal. The Klipsch is an interesting move.

GMichael
05-11-2007, 06:02 AM
Average Joe brand recognition.

StevenSurprenant
05-26-2007, 06:12 AM
Okay, maybe not the cheapest, but in my opinion if you're looking for a system that plays music very well and is also good for surround sound then consider any of the Panasonic digital receivers and Ascend Acoustic speakers.

Many people with higher end equipment have sold their good stuff and gone to the Panasonic SA-XR receivers, myself included.

I was running with Levinson gear (very expensive) and switched to a $250 Panasonic SA-XR25 receiver and never looked back.

The sound I am getting through my system rivals that of some of the very best systems I've heard at any price. In fact, I used to visit audio stores all the time looking for that holy grail of sound, but not any more. That's amazing for receivers that range in price from $200 to $500. I am using a home brew Newform speaker system with the Panny and as I tweak the speakers, the panny just keeps sounding better and better.

Reviews:
http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/panasonic/a-v-receivers/PRD_172732_2718crx.aspx

Keep in mind that some people have reviewed these receivers and hated them. I'm not sure why, but I've heard that when used with a Panasonic DVD player they are very good. Some people have remarked that when they used a different brand DVD player the sound was less than spectacular. My receiver and DVD player are both Panasonic and together, they are pure magic. By the way, I am using a glass optical cable between the Receiver and the DVD player. "The only way to go!"


I've also auditioned the Ascend Acoustic CBM 170s at home and they were phenomenal. They are only $348 per pair. Since then they have improved their model line with the CMT 340s. A friend of mine has both the 170s and the 340s and he says that the 340s are way better than the 170s. The 340s go for $568 a pair.

From the Ascend Acoustics site...

"I went slackjawed…I was struck immediately by the 340s articulate sound, with a detailed, airy presentation I’ve only thought possible with much more expensive speakers." -Clarke Robinson, Affordable Audio

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/

Reviews:

http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/ascend-acoustics/floorstanding-speakers/MPL_7552_1594CRX.ASPX

By the way, they have a 30 day return policy.

If your goal is to get clarity and soundstaging then this is the way to go, for the money.

I am not the final word here. There are many great systems available, but I've been at this for a very long time and for the money and my tastes, this is a no brainer.

****
As other people have said and to answer your question, get your speakers first.

Mr Peabody
05-26-2007, 10:57 AM
Okay, maybe not the cheapest, but in my opinion if you're looking for a system that plays music very well and is also good for surround sound then consider any of the Panasonic digital receivers and Ascend Acoustic speakers.

Many people with higher end equipment have sold their good stuff and gone to the Panasonic SA-XR receivers, myself included.

I was running with Levinson gear (very expensive) and switched to a $250 Panasonic SA-XR25 receiver and never looked back.

The sound I am getting through my system rivals that of some of the very best systems I've heard at any price. In fact, I used to visit audio stores all the time looking for that holy grail of sound, but not any more. That's amazing for receivers that range in price from $200 to $500. I am using a home brew Newform speaker system with the Panny and as I tweak the speakers, the panny just keeps sounding better and better.

Reviews:
http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/panasonic/a-v-receivers/PRD_172732_2718crx.aspx

Keep in mind that some people have reviewed these receivers and hated them. I'm not sure why, but I've heard that when used with a Panasonic DVD player they are very good. Some people have remarked that when they used a different brand DVD player the sound was less than spectacular. My receiver and DVD player are both Panasonic and together, they are pure magic. By the way, I am using a glass optical cable between the Receiver and the DVD player. "The only way to go!"


I've also auditioned the Ascend Acoustic CBM 170s at home and they were phenomenal. They are only $348 per pair. Since then they have improved their model line with the CMT 340s. A friend of mine has both the 170s and the 340s and he says that the 340s are way better than the 170s. The 340s go for $568 a pair.

From the Ascend Acoustics site...

"I went slackjawed…I was struck immediately by the 340s articulate sound, with a detailed, airy presentation I’ve only thought possible with much more expensive speakers." -Clarke Robinson, Affordable Audio

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/

Reviews:

http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/ascend-acoustics/floorstanding-speakers/MPL_7552_1594CRX.ASPX

By the way, they have a 30 day return policy.

If your goal is to get clarity and soundstaging then this is the way to go, for the money.

I am not the final word here. There are many great systems available, but I've been at this for a very long time and for the money and my tastes, this is a no brainer.

****
As other people have said and to answer your question, get your speakers first.

This would have been a credible suggestion if it wasn't for the absurd statement made about back stepping from Levinson to Panasonic. The people that would do that would be in financial difficulty or insane, or maybe suffered recent hearing damage.

And, no matter the DVD player, if it is connected digitally there should be little to no noticeable difference in performance of sound. The same receiver would be doing the decoding. If this has been a problem for the Panasonic receivers, it is a technical flaw they need to address. But, what's a little decoding problem in a receiver able to defeat the highest end of gear for only $250.00.

StevenSurprenant
05-26-2007, 06:18 PM
We are talking about two different technologies, analog versus digital.

There have been people who traded in much more expensive gear than mine. Why is that?

There are also people who have tried these receivers and were extremely impressed. They still thought their "good" analog stuff better, but not by leaps and bounds.

Apparently you believe that cost relates to performance. That's the pit that many people searching for the best fall into, myself included. At least that was the case...

Let me ask you this... Have you ever tried one of the digital amps? If not, how can you even have an opinion? On what do you base your comments: "The people that would do that would be in financial difficulty or insane, or maybe suffered recent hearing damage." ?

Please explain yourself.

As for your comment: "And, no matter the DVD player, if it is connected digitally there should be little to no noticeable difference in performance of sound."

In a perfect world that would be true, but this isn't a perfect world. I derive from your assertions that a $60 player used as a transport would sound the same as a $10,000 transport, as long as a digital connection is used to the same DAC. Did I understand you correctly? Would you trade your EAD transport for the $60 model and expect it to sound the same through your Audio Note?

As I said in my post, I did not experience using other brand DVD players. This was reported by other people who used different players.

Like I said in the begining, this receiver is totally digital from input to output. It never enters into the realm of analog, not even the output to the speakers. What can be better than that? Ones and zeros all the way with no degradation of data. Analog cannot even begin to make that claim.

This does not mean that it is always better than analog, but I would say that it takes some great analog gear to compete with it.

So, with that out of the way, how many Panasonic SA-XR receivers have you auditioned?

I must say that your equipment list is a list of who's who in the upper lineage of audio. Great stuff!

Do you think barnabasvictor can afford what you have?

The point is that I've been down this road for a very long time and have heard much better than what I have, but who has that kind of money? Certainly not Victor. I'm certain you would upgrade your gear too in a heatbeat if you had the money to buy better gear.

I was trying to help Victor get the best bang for his buck. Isn't that the purpose here?

Mr Peabody
05-26-2007, 07:20 PM
[QUOTE=StevenSurprenant]We are talking about two different technologies, analog versus digital.

There have been people who traded in much more expensive gear than mine. Why is that?

> I believe I gave my answer to this.

There are also people who have tried these receivers and were extremely impressed. They still thought their "good" analog stuff better, but not by leaps and bounds.

Apparently you believe that cost relates to performance. That's the pit that many people searching for the best fall into, myself included. At least that was the case...

> I actually prefer to use my ears to evaluate equipment. I have found in general that cost does equate to performance. There are definitely exceptions but it takes money to pay for better parts and build quality. This is why a $60.00 DVD player won't perform like one costing $10k.

Let me ask you this... Have you ever tried one of the digital amps? If not, how can you even have an opinion? On what do you base your comments: "The people that would do that would be in financial difficulty or insane, or maybe suffered recent hearing damage." ?

Please explain yourself.

> I've heard Levinson gear. I have also heard a few Krell home theater set ups. I've heard many HT receivers, including a couple Panasonics and trust me when I say there is a huge difference. My Primare isn't a slouch either. I certainly am not trading for a Panasonic receiver. Thanks anyway.

As for your comment: "And, no matter the DVD player, if it is connected digitally there should be little to no noticeable difference in performance of sound."

In a perfect world that would be true, but this isn't a perfect world. I derive from your assertions that a $60 player used as a transport would sound the same as a $10,000 transport, as long as a digital connection is used to the same DAC. Did I understand you correctly? Would you trade your EAD transport for the $60 model and expect it to sound the same through your Audio Note?

I would not. I have certainly found some difference in transports for CD playback. I believe the differences between DVD outputs would be smaller. Even if not, the difference in sound of transports would pale in comparison to the difference in analog outs of the players.

As I said in my post, I did not experience using other brand DVD players. This was reported by other people who used different players.

Like I said in the begining, this receiver is totally digital from input to output. It never enters into the realm of analog, not even the output to the speakers. What can be better than that? Ones and zeros all the way with no degradation of data. Analog cannot even begin to make that claim.

Really? I wonder how the digital out of your receiver runs the analog device you call a speaker. You should check, I really think that some where along the line your receiver converts the signal to analog. Not too many speakers can be driven by 1's and 0's.

This does not mean that it is always better than analog, but I would say that it takes some great analog gear to compete with it.

So, with that out of the way, how many Panasonic SA-XR receivers have you auditioned?

I must say that your equipment list is a list of who's who in the upper lineage of audio. Great stuff!

Do you think barnabasvictor can afford what you have?

The point is that I've been down this road for a very long time and have heard much better than what I have, but who has that kind of money? Certainly not Victor. I'm certain you would upgrade your gear too in a heatbeat if you had the money to buy better gear.

I was trying to help Victor get the best bang for his buck. Isn't that the purpose here?

> I understand what you were doing and the Panasonic would be a good option. But let's not get carried away by saying people are dumping their high end systems to grab up Panasonic receivers.

StevenSurprenant
05-26-2007, 09:05 PM
Let's not get too carried away with this, but...

You:
I actually prefer to use my ears to evaluate equipment. I have found in general that cost does equate to performance.

Me:
Listening is the only way to evaluate, so we are in agreement there. In the analog world, I would also agree that in the majority of cases I am again in agreement.

You:
There are definitely exceptions but it takes money to pay for better parts and build quality. This is why a $60.00 DVD player won't perform like one costing $10k.

Me: Quoting you...
"And, no matter the DVD player, if it is connected digitally there should be little to no noticeable difference in performance of sound."

You:
Really? I wonder how the digital out of your receiver runs the analog device you call a speaker. You should check, I really think that some where along the line your receiver converts the signal to analog. Not too many speakers can be driven by 1's and 0's.

Me:
The XR45 is instead a "true" digital amplifier in that it converts a PCM (digital) signal directly into a PWM signal.

You:
I understand what you were doing and the Panasonic would be a good option. But let's not get carried away by saying people are dumping their high end systems to grab up Panasonic receivers.

Me: Excerpts from AudioCircle...

I replaced 8k worth of pre/pro and multichannel amp whith the 45

it is in no way out of place powering my outstanding speaker collection.

There have been numerous incidents where I thought someone was calling me from upstairs so powerful are the holographics - I scare the hell out of everyone when I mute it and yell back "whaaat"???? Even on disappointing recordings, the 25 will pick out everything that IS there

I just got back from listening to Cantate Domino on the 801's and the Little Sa XR 45.
It gave me goosebumps.


the little Panasonic is creating pandemonium in the high end community.
I am enjoying the heck out of mine, thats for sure, and it just keeps getting better.

The dynamics and detail were astonishing. I have played this disc quite a few times but it never sounded even close to what we were hearing. I have never heard high-rez digital sound like this.

When it came to bass, slam, dynamics, and clarity, Mike's poor Outlaw amp didn't stand a chance, it really had it's lunch handed to it.

it was obvious that the Pany's dynamics really were world class
__________________________________________________ _______________

Just bought a Panasonic SA-XR-50 amp the other day and had to post a message. I'm a bit of an audio snob, avoiding the mass market names like the plague. Presently have about $20K audio gear kicking around, good pedigree. Caught the buzz about these digital amps and on an impulse ordered one online. The best available at the time was the SA-XR50 (the 45 is discontinued and the 70 isn't out yet). It's quite an unassuming thing, weighing in at 9 lbs. And it's got 6X100W channels inside. So, it got creamed by the high priced gear, and all was as expected, right?
WRONG!!! The stupid Panasonic digital receiver smoked all expectations! It's a week so far, and the little digital amp has me reassessing everything I thought I knew about audio. Honestly, I remember playing a well worn CD, and wondering whether I had somehow gotten a "remix", because there was just a whole lot more going on. Lots more instruments, the musicians were lots more inspired, and where did those background singers come from?

Anyway, I took the requisite several days to calm down, and now I can write this message. The stupid (sorry) Panasonic receiver made mincemeat of most audio gear I could name. The thing is it's so transparent. Average systems will sound great, but with speakers out of its price range (Audio Physic Virgo, Living Voice Avatar) you can start to appreciate what's been accomplished here. Astonishing!!
__________________________________________________ _______________

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

As for my system...

I am using a Panasonic XR25 biamping through a Behringer DCX Digital crossover into a homebrew Newform speakers using R45 tweeters and SEAS mid woofers.

They sound like my old Quad ESL's but with greater transparency, soundstaging, and dynamics. I loved my Quads, but the only area that the Quads are better in is that they are a little smoother in the voices. Very few speakers do voices better than Quads.

I don't even want to walk into another high end store again and that used to be what I did for fun. That's how good the sound is. The neat part is that this system only cost me a fraction of what my old high end system did. I'm glad to be out of the game.


Thanks for the discussion...Enjoy your system, It looks like it would be wonderful too.

Peace

Mr. Peabody,

I apologize for picking your post apart. I hate it when someone does that to me. I just felt I had to defend myself. More often than not, there is no right or wrong, only differences of opinions.

You brought up some good questions which deserved answers. I don't have all the answers. Most of the time I am floundering just trying to make sense of all of this.

Have a great day!

Steve

Rock789
05-27-2007, 01:19 AM
Like I said in the begining, this receiver is totally digital from input to output. It never enters into the realm of analog, not even the output to the speakers. What can be better than that? Ones and zeros all the way with no degradation of data. Analog cannot even begin to make that claim.

FYI

a "Digital Amp" simply refers to a "high power DAC"...

more info if you are not sure what this means:

A typical receiver now days will do all processing in the digital domain (if it has an analog input, this analog signal will be converted to a digital signal before processing),
Once any processing is completed, the receiver will then convert the digital signal back to an analog signal (this is a low voltage signal)...
Once the analog signal is created, it then is sent to an amplifier stage, which simply does what it sounds like, amplifies the signal... (higher voltage, and higher current rating)...

a "Digital Amp" receiver also does all processing in the digital domain, and again converts any analog input signals to digital signals before processing...
Once the processing is performed, the digital signal is then converted to an analog signal using a high power digital to analog converter...
This high power digital to analog converter is able to provide enough voltage and current capability to drive the speakers directly, without requiring an extra amplifier stage within the receiver...

The pluses to this depend on the specific DAC, however have the capability to have less noise and less IIR heat loss.

I have read many good things about the panasonic's, and would like to try one some day...
if I try one and I feel it sounds better than my anthem gear, this place will be one of the 1st to know, however I am not holding my breath on that one...
if it sounds better than my denon, I would again post on here, however this would not surprise me in one bit from all the info I have read...

word of advice... salespeople will say things to make joe public buy their equipment...
if it doesn't make sence (e.g. digital signal output to the speakers :confused: ), perhaps it may be better to ignore what this salesperson is saying...

Feanor
05-27-2007, 02:50 AM
FYI
...
a "Digital Amp" receiver also does all processing in the digital domain, and again converts any analog input signals to digital signals before processing...
Once the processing is performed, the digital signal is then converted to an analog signal using a high power digital to analog converter...
This high power digital to analog converter is able to provide enough voltage and current capability to drive the speakers directly, without requiring an extra amplifier stage within the receiver...

The pluses to this depend on the specific DAC, however have the capability to have less noise and less IIR heat loss.

...

To describe the "digital amp" as a high powered DAC is a deceptive oversimplification. In fact the term "digital" as applied to the amplification is, arguably, incorrect; these amps are more properly called "switching" amps. In any case the digital approach is completely different from the digital encoding of the sound, whether the latter be PCM (pulse code modulation) or DSD (direct stream digital); the technique used for amplification is PWM (pulse width modulation).

Using PWM (or proprietary variants such as Tripath or ICEpower) a sequence of very high frequency 'pulses' is used to switch on and off the output transistors of the amp, (hence the term "switching"). This very high frequency digital signal is digitally generated, but is completely separate and different from the PCM or DSD signal assuming a digital source.

Note that the transistors, while switched on, always work a full power. The way it works is that for a low sound frequency the transistor is left on for more 'pulses' of the PWM control signal than for a high sound frequency. Because the transistor is off much of the time, switching amps are much more efficient and run cooler that standard amplfiers.

How do you get from a PCM/DSD signal to a PWM signal? Technically I'm not clear whether the the PCM/DSD encoded sound is converted to analog before being converted to PWM. In practice I suspect this is most often the case, although with the Panasonic SA-XR series the converstion from PCM to PWM might happen on a single chip.

I own a Panasonic SA-XR25 receiver and its sound is very good, however it does not have the the resolution and transparency that my Tripath "digital" Bel Canto had, nor is as good sounding as my current, high 'A' biased Monarchy amps. By the way, my XR25 took a very long time to burn in: I would say 400-500 hours, prior to witch the sound was relatively sharp and unpleasant.

Rock789
05-27-2007, 09:00 AM
Pulse Width Modulation is performed with a complex controller and IGBT's

I am aware of research into using IGBT's for audio amplifiers, however I was not aware this is what panasonic used... ( I had thought the high power DAC was the similar to a typical DAC, only with high power capability... then again, I haven't ready done much study into a typical DAC design either...)

IGBT's are used in the motor control industry in practically all AC Motor Drives (Variable Frequency Drives, not soft starters)

the problem with IGBT's as Feanor stated, they are a voltage switch....
this means the voltage is either full on or off... no analog voltage control...
the current is controlled by the amount of "on pulses or on time"
this creates a very noisy signal, which for the most part, an industrial ac motor does not care about... however, this noise may cause severe problems with speakers...
one way around this may be an inline reactor or transformer...

if in fact Panasonic does use IGBT's, I am even more interested in these receivers, and defiantly want to check it out...

thanks for the info Feanor

Feanor
05-27-2007, 10:28 AM
Pulse Width Modulation is performed with a complex controller and IGBT's

I am aware of research into using IGBT's for audio amplifiers, however I was not aware this is what panasonic used... ( I had thought the high power DAC was the similar to a typical DAC, only with high power capability... then again, I haven't ready done much study into a typical DAC design either...)

IGBT's are used in the motor control industry in practically all AC Motor Drives (Variable Frequency Drives, not soft starters)

the problem with IGBT's as Feanor stated, they are a voltage switch....
this means the voltage is either full on or off... no analog voltage control...
the current is controlled by the amount of "on pulses or on time"
this creates a very noisy signal, which for the most part, an industrial ac motor does not care about... however, this noise may cause severe problems with speakers...
one way around this may be an inline reactor or transformer...

if in fact Panasonic does use IGBT's, I am even more interested in these receivers, and defiantly want to check it out...

thanks for the info Feanor

From my limited knowledge all audio amps of the switching variety use a low pass filter to keep the high frequency noise you speak of from leaving the amp outputs. Sometime this is just a simple passive filter that operates far enough above the audio band to prevent phase shifting that might be audible.

I really don't know the specific technology the Panasonic XRs use: I'm told it's a Texas Instruments chip, but I can vouch for that.

Mr Peabody
05-27-2007, 11:22 AM
My LINN amp is Class D, 11 lbs and 125x5. Class D is what Panasonic calls their receivers. PWM to my understanding works as Feanor stated. Panasonic, and I assume others, claim this is a digital output, but it's hard to get used to thinking of a transistor output being digital. I was aware of PWM being used in power supplies but I didn't realize it went to the extent that it does in Class D.

This opens up a whole new way of thinking for me. If analog signals are converted to digital, will there be any difference noticed between better, best, analog equipment through these amps? I wonder if my LINN converts the analog input to digital before becoming PWM? If so, this means the processor converts digital to analog just to be converted back to digital again. Being some what OCD about my signal path, this hurts just thinking about it. My HT sounds very good but I have to wonder about all this converting back and forth. The LINN retailed for about $3k and it is a good amp but for music I do not prefer it over my Krell or CJ amps.

I assumed in a typical receiver that the analog signals were preserved and bypassed the digital domain. I wonder if this is true? If not, I may be wrong in telling people they should notice differences in more expensive CD players using their analog outs into HT receivers. Will the better analog output sound be preserved in a conversion? I haven't done much study on analog to digital conversion up to now but this seems like it may become increasingly important.

Steven your excerps from the magazines is a prime example why I do not read them. Panasonic must have paid pretty good for those. I wonder how many movie soundtracks feature scenes where the actor calls the magazine writers name? At least it shows where you are coming from and we can't shoot the messenger, right. I still find their statements absurd.

I also don't pay much attention to specs but one thing that caught my eye when looking at the Panasonic SA-XR700 is the THD of .9%. Maybe they are just more honest, .9% is a lot higher than what one typically sees in receiver specs.

I know T+A uses PWM in the power supply but I'm not sure if they are Class D. I'll have to check. If they are Class D, T+A is a fine example that it can be done very well for musical reproduction.

Feanor
05-27-2007, 11:42 AM
My LINN amp is Class D, 11 lbs and 125x5. Class D is what Panasonic calls their receivers. PWM to my understanding works as Feanor stated. Panasonic, and I assume others, claim this is a digital output, but it's hard to get used to thinking of a transistor output being digital. I was aware of PWM being used in power supplies but I didn't realize it went to the extent that it does in Class D.

This opens up a whole new way of thinking for me. If analog signals are converted to digital, will there be any difference noticed between better, best, analog equipment through these amps? I wonder if my LINN converts the analog input to digital before becoming PWM? If so, this means the processor converts digital to analog just to be converted back to digital again. Being some what OCD about my signal path, this hurts just thinking about it.
...
I assumed in a typical receiver that the analog signals were preserved and bypassed the digital domain. I wonder if this is true? If not, I may be wrong in telling people they should notice differences in more expensive CD players using their analog outs into HT receivers. Will the better analog output sound be preserved in a conversion? I haven't done much study on analog to digital conversion up to now but this seems like it may become increasingly important.

....

Mr. P, I believe it's very unlikely the the Linn converts to PCM before converting to PWM. (That is, assuming the Linn is a power amp only -- I don't know the Linn models very well.) Such a conversion seems point less: it would be easier to go directly from analog to PWM (or whatever PWM variant Linn uses).

Of course, it's different for an AV receiver where DSP is what you want. Many, but not all, AV receivers have a "bypass" mode where an analog signal can be sent directly from input to the output section without DSP, consequently skipping the ADC and DAC stages in most cases. The Panasonic XR25 that I have does NOT have a bypass mode, however, and always converts to PCM. Nevertheless it is a pretty good sounding amp.

Mr Peabody
05-27-2007, 12:08 PM
My Linn is just a power amp. I think your answer is probably correct, like you said, there would be no reason to go to PCM and if it did do that I'd think the amp would include digital inputs as well.

eugene49
05-28-2007, 05:24 PM
Hello! I am a new member. I just want to know what do I need to consider in choosing an audio system?



______________
Spirit Detective
McIntosh MC252 (http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/mcintosh-laboratory-inc-1500/mc252-power-amplifier-5956.html) - Get the MC252 Power Amplifier Catalog by McIntosh Laboratory, Inc.

Mr Peabody
05-28-2007, 05:41 PM
Here's a couple:

What type of listening do you plan to do, ie. stereo, home theater, both.
What, if any, software do you already have, ie. vinyl, CD, SACD/DVD-A.
Budget. And along with that, what level of quality. Receivers/separates
Space/listening room
Must have features.
And, above all else, does the sound please my ears, will it continue to do so without fatigue?

Mr Peabody
05-28-2007, 06:18 PM
Hey, I was checking around to take a look at the current Panasonic HT receivers and they seem some what scarce. I know a guy who is looking and I thought it might be a good excuse to give them another listen. Crutchfield has one model, BB has only one and I didn't find many more. I found a few at online discounters moving older models. I was just curious if they are between model change or if they had been discontinued. Maybe they only make one model. Anyone know?

StevenSurprenant
05-29-2007, 04:15 AM
Hey, I was checking around to take a look at the current Panasonic HT receivers and they seem some what scarce. I know a guy who is looking and I thought it might be a good excuse to give them another listen. Crutchfield has one model, BB has only one and I didn't find many more. I found a few at online discounters moving older models. I was just curious if they are between model change or if they had been discontinued. Maybe they only make one model. Anyone know?


Try this:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_etk_ce_av_/105-9860380-5142020?url=node%3D1065836%2C281053&field-keywords=panasonic+&Go.x=3&Go.y=6

The latest model is the SA-XR700

There is also a SA-XR70 which is not on the Amazon site.

One thing to keep in mind is that the XR25 only has one set of banana plug connectors for the main speakers. The other connectors for the surround channels are the little flip up lever types. Some of the higher models have more of the better connectors.

The other thing is that I highly suggest that you use the optical inputs.

GMichael
05-29-2007, 07:19 AM
I believe that EricL tried one of these recently and liked it very much.

Mr Peabody
05-29-2007, 07:27 PM
It just seems odd to me that brands like Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha etc have several models and easily accessible at just about any store (market penetration), yet here's Panasonic, a major consumer electronics corp ( I forget how to spell parent corp, Matshu whatever) where if you can find their receiver the store offers one model. It would seem if the receiver lived up to the hype we should see at least equal market exposure. Or, maybe the receiver is great but the company is having problems. There just has to be more to this.

StevenSurprenant
05-30-2007, 03:41 AM
It just seems odd to me that brands like Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha etc have several models and easily accessible at just about any store (market penetration), yet here's Panasonic, a major consumer electronics corp ( I forget how to spell parent corp, Matshu whatever) where if you can find their receiver the store offers one model. It would seem if the receiver lived up to the hype we should see at least equal market exposure. Or, maybe the receiver is great but the company is having problems. There just has to be more to this.

Two or three years ago they were on the store shelves, but none of the sales people I spoke to knew anything about them. For the most part, they figured that the digital part was in the surround decoding like all the rest of the surround receivers. They were unaware that it was a true digital amp. I wasn't even sure about it from the info presented in the store. What I was sure about was that the clarity of sound was very impressive compared to any other receiver I had listened to. I watched customers walk right by them in favor of the BIG boxes offered by the other manufacturers. In terms of shelf appeal, there was no comparison with the other receivers. The bigger boxes looked more powerful and their features were more apparent. Eventually, they were taken off the store shelves due to lack of sales.

I really don't blame them. How could this rather small receiver compare to the other name brands. Panasonic was never considered a major player in the audio receiver market and so it was ignored.

So, I would mark it up as poor marketing and no prior reputation in this area.

The only people who caught on to this were people who were more knowledgeable about audio and hence is the reason why it became popular amongst the audio enthusiast on a smaller budget. Unfortunately, it is the mainstream consumer that makes of breaks a company.

People like yourself and a small handful of others make up what is considered the high end consumer. We have little or no effect on the general market. The high end market is dying and most of the people still supporting it are in their fifties or older. We live in the ipod generation now.

Most people I speak to think that Bose is a high end company. What does that tell you?

Anyhow, digital is here to stay and, I believe, analog will eventually go the way of vinyl. Considering that digital is in it's first incarnation, it will only get more refined from here.

For years I complained that I never had a bad record during my analog days, but I have many CDs that are awful.

A gentleman once said, " If one CD sounds better than the best vinyl then digital has succeeded."

Well, that has happened to me. I still have many crappy CDs, but the best of them put the best vinyl I had to shame. Perhaps your experience is different.

The best system I've heard was analog with a digital front end. Nothing and I mean nothing I've heard since could compare with that experiance. It actually fooled me into thinking that there were other people in the room with me. It made me realize and admit that no matter how good your system is, it's rare that it doesn't still sound like a stereo. That's why I kind of chuckle to myself when people get uppity about this hobbie. Chances are their system, albeit very good, still sounds like a stereo. I've learned my lesson and am more humble for it.

FYI, After I bought my Panny, I still couldn't believe I would own a receiver let alone a Panasonic. I was almost embarrassed to admit it. Still am! There goes my humbleness (chuckle!).

If I had the cash, I would go after the best of the best in analog, but the sad part is that I believe that in short time, analog will not be able to compete with digital on any level. A case in point is the television. I've watched its evolution since the fifties and would never go back to what was considered state of the art back then. In fact, I wouldn't even want to go back ten years. Still, the technology just keeps getting better.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it....

barnabasvictor@yahoo.com
05-30-2007, 06:31 PM
Steve and Mr P and others, Thanks for all the inputs given. It shows that there is too much in sound and too many factors that play a part in the final output. However, a lot of what was transacted was way too technical to me. Can one of you put it in simple words for me ?

From what I read here, I understand that when there is analog input (tape of LP) the Panasonic might not shine. But with CD, DVD, mp3 or iPods the sound is the best for that price range or at least one of the best. Also, the performance superior when paired with a Panasonic DVD player and optical cables. Pl. clarify. Thanks again

Mr Peabody
05-30-2007, 07:04 PM
That makes sense, Americans have long been marketed to that bigger is better. I have to admit I had my doubts about a 11 lb. amp that cost $3k and supposed to deliver 125 x 5. My former Arcam amp had to go into the shop and I talked the store I usually deal with into letting me borrow their Linn demo. It had no problem delivering the power and the fact that it had no heat and auto turn on eventually led me to getting one. I placed it inside my cabinet and once hooked up, I never have to mess with it again. The Linn amp has a very seductive sound especially in the midrange but again, I'd prefer my Krell or CJ for music.

You really can't compare TV to audio though. There is obviously light years of noticeable improvement between black & white to HDTV. Some people still pay several times original retail price for Marantz tube gear from the 60's. I personally converted from Krell in my main system to CJ tube gear. It's modern tube gear but the basic technology goes back. My point is what is appealing in audio is still very subjective where video, at least in modern vs vintage, is objectively decisive.

If you want to be fooled by your audio system into believing the performers are in the room, you should take a listen to some tube gear.

StevenSurprenant
05-31-2007, 05:28 AM
"If you want to be fooled by your audio system into believing the performers are in the room, you should take a listen to some tube gear."

I've heard that from several people. I might look into that someday. Thanks.
By the way, the system I was refering to was running Spectral gear.

"My point is what is appealing in audio is still very subjective where video, at least in modern vs vintage, is objectively decisive."

You're right again!

Victor...

"From what I read here, I understand that when there is analog input (tape of LP) the Panasonic might not shine. But with CD, DVD, mp3 or iPods the sound is the best for that price range or at least one of the best. Also, the performance superior when paired with a Panasonic DVD player and optical cables."

You understand it correctly.

Panasonic DVD players upsample and that might account for much of the sound improvement. That is a good thing in my book.

As for the analog part of the Panasonic...

When comparing the analog output from the DVD player to the optical output when connected directly to the receiver, the optical is more transparent. Also, I would highly recommend a glass optical cable. I tried plastic and the glass was more transparent. I bought my cable on ebay for about $35.

However, in my system I run the optical output into a Behringer electronic crossover and the crossover outputs analog. Because of this I have to use the analog inputs to the receiver. It still sounds very clear. If I could, I would prefer to go digital all the way, but my gear won't allow that. I'm still thrilled with what I'm hearing. So you know, I am bi-amping my speakers. that means I am splitting the signals into high and low before it gets to the amps. I have to run two amps on each speaker. The Panny allows me to do this by running my electronic crossover into the DVD-A inputs on the Panny amp. Some say this is the best setup and I feel they might be right.

The point is, connect the DVD player to the receiver using glass optical and you're set to go. Connect your speakers, plug in the DVD player and Reciever and you're done.

Not meaning to confuse you, there is also HMDI which I have not tried. Some DVD players and Receivers have this option and it might be good too. I believe some Panasonic models have this.

One last thing...

I think that speaker wires make a difference and you will get many opinions about that. I would recommend DH Labs T14 if you're going with smaller speakers such as the Ascend Acoustics that I mentioned. They are silver coated copper and are very transparent sounding. Also, they don't cost a fortune. I am using the DH Labs Q10 which would be over kill for you.

Ascend also recommends the HSU sub to go with their speaker. I have one and for the money, they are very very nice.

You can build your system in steps, so don't think you have to get all this stuff at once. Just start with the Panny receiver, DVD, Ascend combo and go from there.

Of course, you may make other choices, so I wish you the best whatever path you choose. This can be a very fun hobbie if you get hooked.

Let us know how it turns out....

Steve

Florian
06-01-2007, 02:47 AM
I recommend that you try the following combination.

Blue Circle CS Integrated Amplifier
Hales Revelation 3 Speakers
Audioquest Slate Cables
Monarchy Audio DAC and DIP and any Transport you can find.
Interconnects are DIY from Allen Wreights "Super cables cook book" from VSE

That will give you a very nice sounding system and with great room for future upgrades if you wish.

Cheers

Flo

Mr Peabody
06-01-2007, 04:07 PM
Steve, I didn't understand your set up. Do you have a separate amp in addition to your receiver? If you go from your DVD digitally right into the crossover and then into the analog input, there's no way for you to get 5.1 surround. The digital from the DVD player would have to be decoded by the receiver's surround processor to direct the sound into which of the 5 channels. Dolby digital 5.1 also has frequency cutoffs encoded in the soundtrack, this is why for most subs running off the LFE out, the sub uses "bypass" mode, no need for a crossover. I can see bi-amping being done from the pre-outs of the receiver, after all the processing but it sounded like you cross right out of the DVD player.

StevenSurprenant
06-02-2007, 06:49 AM
Steve, I didn't understand your set up. Do you have a separate amp in addition to your receiver? If you go from your DVD digitally right into the crossover and then into the analog input, there's no way for you to get 5.1 surround. The digital from the DVD player would have to be decoded by the receiver's surround processor to direct the sound into which of the 5 channels. Dolby digital 5.1 also has frequency cutoffs encoded in the soundtrack, this is why for most subs running off the LFE out, the sub uses "bypass" mode, no need for a crossover. I can see bi-amping being done from the pre-outs of the receiver, after all the processing but it sounded like you cross right out of the DVD player.

The Panasonic XR25 has discrete analog inputs for DVD-A. They did this due to legal issues at the time. The newer models allow DVD-A inputs through the HMDI cables.

In order to access the amps separately I use these inputs.

I run an optical cable into a Behringer DEQ equalizer and from there I run a 110ohm balanced cable from the DEQ to the Behringer DEX electronic crossover. At this point. everything is digital. The DEX only outputs analog, so I feed these outputs to the analog DVD-A inputs of the receiver.

Doing this, I loose all the surround features of the receiver, as you surmised. You're a smart man!

Because of this and wanting the ability to go surround someday, I started putting together a passive crossover for the speakers. I have finished the analog crossover for the tweeter, but have not started on the woofer section yet. As of now, I am running the tweeter signal through the DEX with no processing, letting the passive crossover do its work. The woofer gets processed through the DEX.

In case you're interested, I've heard it is best to run passive on the tweeters and active on the rest. Well, someone said that...

In my case, I have found that to be true. Another thing I found to make HUGE difference are the Capacitors used in the crossover. When I went from active to using the stock cap that came with the tweeter, the soundstage all but vanished and micro details vanished. I then tried using Audio Cap Theta caps and it sounded pretty much like the active crossover. I then went to Mundorf Siver/oil caps along with the Theta's. I also, used a foil inductor in the circuit. This brought the crossover frequency down to about 800Hz for the tweeter. (I am using a Newform R45 tweeter.) This setup was much better than anything I heard before. Eventually, I went all Mundorf Silver/Oil and I can't tell you how pleased I am. The problem is that the Mundorf are very expensive and I can only afford a little at a time.

I am not running a sub at the moment. I did for a while, running the DEX into the sub circuits of the Panny. It worked fine, but for music, the main speakers sound pretty good without it.

I have to tell you this...

Other than buying new speakers, changing the caps was one of the greatest improvements in sound that I have ever experienced. Much greater than any change in electronics or cables. As for the electronic crossover, I have nothing to compare it to since these speakers are home-brew and started out with an active crossover.

In case you ever go down this path ( not that you would want to), you need to know this...

The Panny DVD player upsamples up to 192KHz, but the Behringer only allows 96KHz. I had to reduce the upsampling of the DVD player so they would sync. The other thing is that you need to set the receiver to DVD 6 channel. You just press the DVD button on the remote twice to get this.

I hope this isn't too much information, but you asked!

Mr Peabody
06-02-2007, 01:34 PM
A friend of mine here on the board has been working on a speaker project for some years and he said the same thing about caps and other internal parts. He and I both agree, as you do, that speaker wire also makes a difference. He has also made some of his own interconnects and speaker connects.

The DEX must have a D to A built in, I'll have to take a look at some of Barringer's gear. I only use sub for movies too.

I haven't done much with outboard crossovers in home audio. I've done a little in car and pro audio. Most of the systems I've seen have either been active or passive, not a mix. We used to put a low pass protect circuit on a certain Electro Voice horn tweeter. It literally only handled 5 watts, but it could probably cause hearing damage at 5 watts. That's the only thing off the top of my head I can think of that would be both.

R.S.
06-05-2007, 12:49 PM
If your looking for a decent surround sound system, I would seriously consider the B&Ws at half price. Try to find bookshelves that all match. If they're magnetically shielded, see if you can get a total of 5 (4 plus one used for the center channel). Nothing will ruin a surround sound system more than a small, inadequate center speaker.

If you're into classical music, you should think about an SACD player. There are tons of classical SACDs currently available, and they are still making them.

Look for a higher powered Yamaha, Harmon Kardon, Denon or Onko 5.1 or 7.1 receiver.

barnabasvictor@yahoo.com
07-20-2007, 01:42 PM
Have not posted in a long time, but have been visiting the forum occasionally. However, I did make some gear purchase :) . After all my search for a HT receiver to my liking, I settled for Yamaha (as I had previously mentioned). The Onkyo SR 505 came as close competition. I finally settled for Yammy HTR 5940 that was on sale at RadioShack. I am also got a pair of used Optimus ProLX5 with linaeum tweets (need to restore the tweeter on one) and optimus CS centre. The Optimus is temporarily my front speakers. I am still on the lookout for a Sub. I also used 14 gauge speaker cables. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.
Any recommendations for a Sub under $150 would be appreciated.
Just wanted to post a note on the forum. the recommendations given by the folks here. were very useful.

O'Shag
07-20-2007, 02:55 PM
Speakers: Paradigm Atom $199 (a staggering value!)
DVD/CD/SACD: Oppo 981HD $229
Integrated Amp: NAD C 325BEE: 399.00
Speaker Cables: transparent MusicWave (used) $150.00
Interconnects CD to integrated: Transparent MusicLink, 1 or 2 mtr (used) $100 or so
Speaker Stands: (used) around $60
Power Conditioning: Monster HTP1100: $125.00

Total: $1,262.00

You may wish to think about resetting your expectations for $600.00, because you really will find it nigh on impossible to put a decent system together for this price unless you run into some used give-away situation. The total for the equipment suggested is about twice your current budget, but if you want decent hi-fidelity you have to get the basics right. You will need cables, and power conditioner. This system will give you excellent performance for a low price, and some of it is sourced used from Audiogon or ebay (be very careful on ebay).

NB: If you don't require video capability but need mostly for CD then you can consider this instead of the Oppo: NAD C 525BEE CD Player: $299.00

Luvin Da Blues
07-20-2007, 04:43 PM
Speakers: Paradigm Atom $199 (a staggering value!)
DVD/CD/SACD: Oppo 981HD $229
Integrated Amp: NAD C 325BEE: 399.00
Speaker Cables: transparent MusicWave (used) $150.00
Interconnects CD to integrated: Transparent MusicLink, 1 or 2 mtr (used) $100 or so
Speaker Stands: (used) around $60
Power Conditioning: Monster HTP1100: $125.00

Total: $1,262.00

You may wish to think about resetting your expectations for $600.00, because you really will find it nigh on impossible to put a decent system together for this price unless you run into some used give-away situation. The total for the equipment suggested is about twice your current budget, but if you want decent hi-fidelity you have to get the basics right. You will need cables, and power conditioner. This system will give you excellent performance for a low price, and some of it is sourced used from Audiogon or ebay (be very careful on ebay).

NB: If you don't require video capability but need mostly for CD then you can consider this instead of the Oppo: NAD C 525BEE CD Player: $299.00

Especially when you spend close to 30% on I/Cs, PCs and speaker cables. So if he doesn't need video capabilities you recomend a higher price CD player??? Remember this is a budget system.