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salad 419
04-03-2007, 01:36 PM
Not sure where to start this, but first here's my equipment list:

$39 Magnavox DVD player using coaxial out for CD Player
Harmon Kardon AVR-245 Receiver (65wx2)
Quad 22L speakers (replaced CV E-710's)
CV SW-12 powered sub
12 guage "Wal-Mart" Speaker wire

I'm running the sub from the speaker outs and using that crossover, not the sub output as I don't have a cable at the moment.

I ordered the Quads unheard, based on reviews here and elsewhere. There are NO high end shops around, so I didn't do the thousand auditions like I was supposed to. I figured that since the CV's weren't real bright, I didn't want to jump into a brighter sounding speaker and the Quads would be a nice compromise from what I was used to.

Since adding the Quads, there is a noticable difference in sound. Some of those cute little words to help describe the improvements may include better imaging, more natural, dynamic, etc. The mid range was the most noticable improvement. Recordings are less muddy and you can here subtle details that you couldn't before, but I'm not 100% happy. I'd like some more high end punch. When I increase the treble to +2 db, I don't like the tone, but the highs aren't as crisp with the soft domes.

Anyway, what should be my next upgrade?
Will running the sub thru the sub out help improve the quality of the sound?
Is the digital signal coming out of my el cheapo DVD player "different" from the signal coming out of any other player?
Would using the HK as a pre and adding amps (suggestions welcome) for the mains help?
What are some of the possible bottlenecks and/or issues?

I enjoyed the warmer sound of the HK compared to other receivers, but with the combination of the Quads, I think I did a 1 + 1 = a NO NO and lost the high end.?????? Or, I'm just hearing the limitations of my cheap source? Or ??????????

Don't be afraid of hurting my feelings. There's no need to pull punches. Give it to me straight. I'm all ears.

PeruvianSkies
04-03-2007, 02:38 PM
Not sure where to start this, but first here's my equipment list:

$39 Magnavox DVD player using coaxial out for CD Player
Harmon Kardon AVR-245 Receiver (65wx2)
Quad 22L speakers (replaced CV E-710's)
CV SW-12 powered sub
12 guage "Wal-Mart" Speaker wire

I'm running the sub from the speaker outs and using that crossover, not the sub output as I don't have a cable at the moment.

I ordered the Quads unheard, based on reviews here and elsewhere. There are NO high end shops around, so I didn't do the thousand auditions like I was supposed to. I figured that since the CV's weren't real bright, I didn't want to jump into a brighter sounding speaker and the Quads would be a nice compromise from what I was used to.

Since adding the Quads, there is a noticable difference in sound. Some of those cute little words to help describe the improvements may include better imaging, more natural, dynamic, etc. The mid range was the most noticable improvement. Recordings are less muddy and you can here subtle details that you couldn't before, but I'm not 100% happy. I'd like some more high end punch. When I increase the treble to +2 db, I don't like the tone, but the highs aren't as crisp with the soft domes.

Anyway, what should be my next upgrade?
Will running the sub thru the sub out help improve the quality of the sound?
Is the digital signal coming out of my el cheapo DVD player "different" from the signal coming out of any other player?
Would using the HK as a pre and adding amps (suggestions welcome) for the mains help?
What are some of the possible bottlenecks and/or issues?

I enjoyed the warmer sound of the HK compared to other receivers, but with the combination of the Quads, I think I did a 1 + 1 = a NO NO and lost the high end.?????? Or, I'm just hearing the limitations of my cheap source? Or ??????????

Don't be afraid of hurting my feelings. There's no need to pull punches. Give it to me straight. I'm all ears.


This is a loaded question(s). I am not necessarily giving you any 'expert' advise as I am not familar with all of the equipment that you are using or for that matter using them together. However, based on what you are saying I would say it could be several factors. The hardest thing about a problem is locating the issue and that requires lots of patience over a course of time as you slowly narrow down the elements. Process of elimination.

I would think that those speakers probably need a bit more power, which you could add an amp to drive them with and I would certainly get away from the Magnavox player for sure. That's just asking for trouble. Next I would highly consider getting some better cables (PS Audio, Audioquest, CobaltCables come to mind). You don't have to go overboard with cables, but something a little better. Even the Monster XP would suffice.

Keep us posted.

Mr Peabody
04-03-2007, 07:13 PM
I have experienced some difference between transports/digital out but no matter what you hook up to your receiver, using it as the DAC, it won't change much.. If you were going to improve on CD playback, buy a decent CD player and use the analog outputs.

It seems your unhappiness is with the highs, so I don't think how your sub is hooked up will matter much. What will matter is if your sub is cranked to where it's overshadowing the high end or possibly you need to play with the crossover point. Not accusing, but my experience has been most people tend to turn their subs to 11 <(Spinal Tap reference). Try to achieve a flat response and see if that helps anything, (flat: all frequencies delivered with the same magnitude)

I agree good speaker connects do help.

I haven't heard a modern day HK receiver in quite sometime. In he day a 50 watt HK would run circles around most any other 100 receiver. They had discrete circuits and high current output. Your speakers are 88dB sensitive, not terrible but probably going to need more than 50 watts to get them off the ground. In my opinion a $1,5k speaker is a little out of balance ih $400.00 receiver. I believe your suggestion of adding an external power amp is probably a good idea, not the cheapest, but a good bet to help. If possible audition before you buy to see if that's what helps before laying out the money. Many places will at least allow a 30 day return. You will still be limited by the receiver's preamp ability but I presume you don't want to replace the receiver. The 22L's look like nice speakers.

salad 419
04-07-2007, 05:17 AM
Thanks for the advice. Here's the free mods I've done over the past few days:

First, I completely removed the subwoofer. ( I'm guilty of the 15db boost below 80hz, sometimes) The highs and the lows seemed to be a bit tighter, so I assumed that speaker line in and out and crossover from my sub added a bit of "coloring/noise/bad sound".

Result. Slight improvement in sound in both highs and tighter bass

Second, I added the subwoofer to the sub out on the receiver and used the receivers crossover.

Result: Slight improvement in sound. Tighter/deeper bass than by using the sub crossover.

Thirdly, I tried the whole bi-wire deal since the speakers have the connections.

Result: Not convinced it did anything to the sound or if I imagined it, but I'm starting to get used to the Quads. It may have added a touch more sizzle to the highs, but very little.

Lastly, I unscrewed the front floor spikes two revolutions to slightly angle the speakers upward.

Result: Same as above.

I'm really starting to like the Quads. This is my first experience with soft dome tweeters. I guess it will take me awhile to get used to the sound. Overall, the 22L's have a really punchy and deep bass sound with awesome detail. The highs are there and you can hear details like which part of the stick and which part of the cymbal the drummer is hitting, but just doesn't have the metallic harshness I'm accustomed to hearing.

I'll eventually upgrade the amplification and use the current receiver for a bedroom system.
The speakers might like more power. They (seem to?) sound more balanced at higher volume levels .

In a few weeks, I'll order some decent speaker wire and hopefully be impressed.

In retrospect I was hoping to have this totally noticable sound difference sorta like changing from the single paper cones to a 3-way in your car.

Wireworm5
04-07-2007, 09:32 AM
I think your system is a starter system somewhat how I started out. Now that you've been critical listening for awhile you know somethings wrong. Basically everything is low end, your Quad speaker may be the only good component which I'm not familiar with.
Your magnavox dvd player which I have, I compared to my Sony. It was only respectable as a transport using optical cable. Coaxial cable may have the same result, dunno. A better source will give you slightly better high's when used as a transport. I think for the analog hookup you have to go with a very good player to get better sound than an optical hook up. That's been my experience anyway, and I'm contemplating a better player with good dac's for analog hook up.
Second the cv sub is not a very good sub. Go with something better like a Velodyne CHT-10. You will notice the difference the first time you power up. Having the sub hooked up to the sub out takes the bass load off the receiver.
Also I would consider a better av/receiver with pre-outs so you can upgrade to power amps in the future if you desire.
I'm not a believer in speaker wire, not that it wouldn't make a difference. You will notice a huge difference in sound quality by addressing the equipment issues first. Wire is more like a tweak that will make only a slight improvement if any.
That's my .02 cents.

hifitommy
04-07-2007, 10:19 AM
hi salad,

using speaker cable to the sub is ok, REL subs do that for continuity of sound but you may benefit from the internal high pass filter to free the quads of the lowest freqs and allow you to play louder with less strain on the quads.

as for wire to the speakers from your amp, i truly suggest you try AQ type 4. they are cheeeep and really do sound better, and that's from personal experience not hype. i replaced monster twin lead 10ga with them and the bottom end cleaned up. the monster allowed more bass overhang and muddied up the sound.

more power could add the punch youre looking for, adcom gfa 5400 or 5500 would really kick there and they arent bright like some dolts say they are. my friend had both models running martin-logan reQuests and if they were bright, the MLs would have exposed that.

you may be telling yourself that soft dome tweets are soft sounding. that isnt the case, some VERY good speakers use them to great benefit. just listen to the MUSIC and if that sounds natural, then things are right.

a lot of money doesn't have to be spent on a cd player. the oppo: http://www.oppodigital.com/ (http://www.oppodigital.com/) is very affordable and is a universal player-cd, sacd, dvda, and dvd video. i am considering one of these and i still love the sound of my sony ns500v but the oppo has hdcd capability plus the dvda which i dont have.

it seems that you've already started on a good path and i think youll soon be pretty happy.