Power cords [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

BillyB

04-02-2007, 10:21 AM

I have always heard about the noticable difference upgraded power cords can make with components.I never completely understood the premise.A friend recently upgraded the power cord on his amp and swears the difference in sound quality is significant with all else the same.Of course you can also change out the pre-amp and CDP if you believe it's worth it.

Just wondering if you guys have a strong opinion on this issue.Like all cable debates I'm sure this one is very subjective.Then of course there is how much do you spend on the cords.I found a site that seems very legit and makes their own cords for under $100.

Last question is this.Most cords have a female end that plugs into your component.I have an older Rotel Amp I like quite a bit that is hard-wired through the back.Does anyone know if an internal connection could be made properly with a new cord.If not of course I can pull the cover.Thanks for any input.

Resident Loser

04-02-2007, 10:34 AM

PeruvianSkies

04-02-2007, 11:45 AM

BillyB

04-03-2007, 08:06 AM

You are opening up the biggest bag of worms here, but I'll provide my response regardless.

I have been using Acoustic Zen power cords on all of my gear for the past year+, which includes my amps and my DVD/CD/SACD player(s). I wouldn't exactly say that the cord makes a huge improvement in the sound as much as it does the performance in general. It's different with each component as well and differs in probably all setups as each one is different and things react differently.

What I noticed with my amp is that it seems more stable and delivers more drive. I guess you could say that the amp feels more 'alive'.

The DVD/CD/SACD player on the other hand did not really change sonics, which is good, but the player seems happier to be getting better power. I notice that the machine itself seems to operate much smooth and just doesn't seem fussy.

I am sure you will get a variety of responses here, but that's mine.

Thanks for the input.Yes the dreaded cables issue.Truthfully I would have never given this a moments thought if not for my friend's claim.He is very serious about his audio yet I still have reservations regarding his claim.He also gave me the link for these supposed great quality yet very reasonable cables.

My problem with the cable issue is this.Do you go on the premise you have to buy very expensive cables in order to hear a difference.The expectations become higher relative to cost, and of course the disappointment higher if they don't help.If you buy less expensive cables are they enough of an improvement over OEM to justify changing them.Also less of a disaster if they don't help.Not easy stuff.

I'm still intrigued by an Amp power cord upgrade.They draw the most power and a cord with higher gauge conductors and better shielding isn't an outrageous premise.Of course the cord on my amp is rated for the amperage of my amp, but it does look very bony compared to the power cords I've been looking at.More copper means less resistence so who knows?

Part of the obsession with this hobby is always trying to achieve better sound.This can leave us wide open to spending money on things that don't really work.I have already spent quite a bit of money on components,speakers,interconnects, and bi-wire speaker cable.This would be my last tweak and I'm on the fence about it I would love to hear from someone very technically versed on this theory.Many of the professionals do say these cords make a difference,but they do admit results vary and are often hard to even notice.

I like to get into the nuts and bolts of these issues as most of these matters can be proved or disproved through science.Of course our ears are the most important test.I just like to know all I can before buying any of this stuff.

PeruvianSkies

04-03-2007, 08:11 AM

Thanks for the input.Yes the dreaded cables issue.Truthfully I would have never given this a moments thought if not for my friend's claim.He is very serious about his audio yet I still have reservations regarding his claim.He also gave me the link for these supposed great quality yet very reasonable cables.

My problem with the cable issue is this.Do you go on the premise you have to buy very expensive cables in order to hear a difference.The expectations become higher relative to cost, and of course the disappointment higher if they don't help.If you buy less expensive cables are they enough of an improvement over OEM to justify changing them.Also less of a disaster if they don't help.Not easy stuff.

I'm still intrigued by an Amp power cord upgrade.They draw the most power and a cord with higher gauge conductors and better shielding isn't an outrageous premise.Of course the cord on my amp is rated for the amperage of my amp, but it does look very bony compared to the power cords I've been looking at.More copper means less resistence so who knows?

Part of the obsession with this hobby is always trying to achieve better sound.This can leave us wide open to spending money on things that don't really work.I have already spent quite a bit of money on components,speakers,interconnects, and bi-wire speaker cable.This would be my last tweak and I'm on the fence about it I would love to hear from someone very technically versed on this theory.Many of the professionals do say these cords make a difference,but they do admit results vary and are often hard to even notice.

I like to get into the nuts and bolts of these issues as most of these matters can be proved or disproved through science.Of course our ears are the most important test.I just like to know all I can before buying any of this stuff.

They power cables that I used list for $300/each, which is rediculous in my book. I would NEVER have spent that money if I wasn't able to snag them up for $80/each. They are incredible for that price. I'd be weary as to how much you spend on power cables alone. Try PS Audio, they make some terrific cables and also have a few price tiers for all levels of interest.

daviethek

04-03-2007, 08:45 AM

the PS Power Punch is about 50.00 at AA. It is different enough from standard power cords so that it might make some differences to your ears. If you don't notice any difference, return the cord, give up the search, and squirrel the money away for the next major component upgrade instead.

Resident Loser

04-03-2007, 09:15 AM

...I'm still intrigued by an Amp power cord upgrade.They draw the most power and a cord with higher gauge conductors and better shielding isn't an outrageous premise.Of course the cord on my amp is rated for the amperage of my amp, but it does look very bony compared to the power cords I've been looking at.More copper means less resistence so who knows?...

...it's all so wrong...A simple question...if the power cord has a higher gauge than the stuff that's in your wall, or the wiring that's in your amp/receiver, what would be the benefit? D@mned if I can figure it out...

You can buy UL approved cords that have shielding to deflect RFI/EFI/ EIEIO but, IMHO the last thing you need to shield is a PC as there are umpteen different places this sonic hash can enter your signal path...and make note, that was signal path...which is a few steps removed from the AC that comes out of the outlet and through the cord and is magically transformed into low voltage DC in the power supply section, which is what your electronics run on...

Skinny power cord? Well, the big diff in most of the aftermarket stuff is the fact that it is usually sheathed in some techie-looking braid or some other material and terminated in huge, hardwired (as opposed to molded), sometimes yellow, sometimes orange, perhaps even hospital-rated male/female connectors...OOOHH! big and impressive...until you realize they have to be bigger because they use screw terminals for the wire termination and the connectors themselves are fastened together...all thost fasteners take up beaucoup room, hence SIZE...which conveniently, and simply as a naturally occurring byproduct, gives the appearance of being some hard-core bit of hardware...sorta like most of the street-based "SUV"s out there...Bigger don't mean squat...

And again are these aftermarket gems UL approved? Some folks pooh-pooh the question (your insurance company won't), but there is one mfr. who shills these wares and funny thing, the only item they sell that has UL approval is a fairly run-of-the-mill IEC cord that's way, way down in their pricing structure...their higher priced stuff isn't...Hmmm, wonder why...Molded ends, no braiding...probably right out of the box from China...

As one of the more hands-on, techie types who posts now and again, jneutron terms most of the hype "flooby-dust" and has, in the past, here and at other sites, given pretty good evidence why he uses that term...

jimHJJ(...suffice it to say, the physical evidence of hype I've pointed out should alone give one pause...)

kexodusc

04-03-2007, 09:40 AM

Nobody used 'em better than The Who, IMO.

...it's all so wrong...A simple question...if the power cord has a higher gauge than the stuff that's in your wall, or the wiring that's in your amp/receiver, what would be the benefit? D@mned if I can figure it out...

You can buy UL approved cords that have shielding to deflect RFI/EFI/ EIEIO but, IMHO the last thing you need to shield is a PC as there are umpteen different places this sonic hash can enter your signal path...and make note, that was signal path...which is a few steps removed from the AC that comes out of the outlet and through the cord and is magically transformed into low voltage DC in the power supply section, which is what your electronics run on...

Skinny power cord? Well, the big diff in most of the aftermarket stuff is the fact that it is usually sheathed in some techie-looking braid or some other material and terminated in huge, hardwired (as opposed to molded), sometimes yellow, sometimes orange, perhaps even hospital-rated male/female connectors...OOOHH! big and impressive...until you realize they have to be bigger because they use screw terminals for the wire termination and the connectors themselves are fastened together...all thost fasteners take up beaucoup room, hence SIZE...which conveniently, and simply as a naturally occurring byproduct, gives the appearance of being some hard-core bit of hardware...sorta like most of the street-based "SUV"s out there...Bigger don't mean squat...

And again are these aftermarket gems UL approved? Some folks pooh-pooh the question (your insurance company won't), but there is one mfr. who shills these wares and funny thing, the only item they sell that has UL approval is a fairly run-of-the-mill IEC cord that's way, way down in their pricing structure...their higher priced stuff isn't...Hmmm, wonder why...Molded ends, no braiding...probably right out of the box from China...

As one of the more hands-on, techie types who posts now and again, jneutron terms most of the hype "flooby-dust" and has, in the past, here and at other sites, given pretty good evidence why he uses that term...

jimHJJ(...suffice it to say, the physical evidence of hype I've pointed out should alone give one pause...)

Ah gee whiz, RL, there ya go again, makin' sense with them big fancy words of yours...

gjpham

04-03-2007, 09:26 PM

....A friend recently upgraded the power cord on his amp and swears the difference in sound quality is significant with all else the same.Of course you can also change out the pre-amp and CDP if you believe it's worth it.....
Ask your friend you could please come over so he could demonstrate it for you, before and after. I have Q which apply for both of you.
1/ How old is the house (30+ year)?
2/ How much is the system cost roughly?

DEVO

04-04-2007, 08:58 AM

PeruvianSkies

04-04-2007, 09:51 AM

I would like to say hi to everyone on this forum since this is my first reply...

Cables...Cables...Cables...the hated conversation!

Well...hear is my thought!

I spent over 15 years in the audio / video industry selling different manufactures. TV's, pre-pros, receivers, speakers, cables, etc. Heard all the demos from Audioquest, Monster, etc.

Every product will seems to give a different response. I happen to have one of the Audioquest NRG-5 (10 ft=$910) power cables hooked up to my plasma (PRO1130HD). I didn't really see that much difference from the manufactures power cable.
Now years ago I saw it on a different plasma (Mitsubishi forget model #) and it made a huge difference.
Now I'm not trying to beat on Mitsubishi or brag on Pioneer. But not all products will make a difference w/ a simple upgrade of power cord.

If you are itching to try it, go to your local hi-fi store and buy one. (Find out their return policy first). Try it out, see if their is a difference and go from there.

And maybe this is why some people notice a difference and others do not, which is certainly cause for the debate. Each person is encountering different results it's no wonder why people are going back and forth with each other on the subject. I've said this all along and also went a step further and got into some real thick matters by saying that you are only going to notice certain tweaks if your system is actual good enough to tell that difference. If you replace the power cord on your Comcast cable box that's going to be different that on a Goldmund Reference CD player. It is the same with speaker cables...not all speaker types are going to respond with a difference that makes it seem worthwhile.

I don't see any end in sight for this debate, so I guess we'll just keep going back and forth. (BRACES HIMSELF FOR THE WAVE OF REPLIES GOING AGAINST WHAT I JUST SAID)

BillyB

04-04-2007, 11:41 AM

Ask your friend you could please come over so he could demonstrate it for you, before and after. I have Q which apply for both of you.
1/ How old is the house (30+ year)?
2/ How much is the system cost roughly?

My system cost me approximately $6K.My friend who is swearing by the power cord difference has a system that cost closer to $3K.I'm definitely going to ask him to let me listen to the system with the OEM cord vs the supposedly upgraded cord.My house is 50 years old but if you're getting at wire age or circuit issues that isn't a factor for me.I ran a dedicated circuit for my A/V and stereo system.If not I'm open to suggestions.

For whatever it's worth I think the site for the power cords he is swearing by is direct cables.A 7' cable would run me about $100 made to length.I have a very reputable audio shop I use and I'm going to speak to the owner regarding this issue.He's one of the most well versed audiophiles I've met and won't talk me into this idea unless he believes in it.He's never steered me wrong regarding my system and frequently tells me when an audio theory is nonsense.

mlsstl

04-04-2007, 03:18 PM

A couple of observations.

1. No power cord, regardless of cost, can add more power than what is available at your wall socket. If you've got 15 amps/115 volts at the wall outlet, you're not going to get 16 amps/120 volts at the equipment end of an expensive power cord.

2. The only two things a power cord can do are: a) deliver as much of what is available at the outlet to the other end of the power cord, and b) reject the pickup of extraneous noise (RF/EMI type stuff.) Of course, if one is picking up a lot of noise in the 3' from the wall to the equipment, one would have to wonder what the wire just on the other side of the wall is picking up. That said, a cable could act as a simple filter, but a simple and inexpensive circuit could also do the same thing.

Wire, just like any other product in the world, can be of higher or lower quality, but given the function I've never seen an explanation I buy that justifies power cords in the hundreds to thousands of dollars range.

One other factor in cable evaluation is it is very difficult to weed out expectation bias, especially in the home environment. Some products just have an appearance that strongly suggests they should be helping things sound better.

However, that doesn't bother me much. A lot of effort generally goes into the aesthetic design of our equipment and audiophiles generally enjoy looking at their neat-looking stuff. It is perfectly OK to allow a good-looking product help coax our minds to a greater sonic enjoyment of our system.

However, overall I am in the camp that tends to be rather skeptical of many of the claims made for power cables, particularly the very high priced ones

PeruvianSkies

04-05-2007, 02:17 AM

I've thought of a way to somehow communicate what I feel any type of cable does, whether it be a power cable or a speaker cable.

Cables are like bridges...they are transporting something from two points. The cable or the bridge does NOT change what is coming across, such as cars across a bridge. However, a bridge that is built better helps the car travel from those two points. Power cables are not going to deliver MORE than what is available at the outlet...true, but the construction of various cables can impact how it goes from the outlet to the component.

So what I am essentially saying is that if we a higher grade cable as opposed to a generic cable than the difference quite possible could be that the weaker cable does not deliver the full potential of what is available from the outlet, where the higher grade cable could be giving closer to 100% of that potential. Similarly if you have two bridges built of contrasting qualities it doesn't change what is coming across as much as it changes how effectively it comes across. You go drive faster, more reliably, and more controlled across a sturdy iron bridge as oppossed to a rickety wooden bridge.

I hope that makes sense to some. I can't think of any way to put it clearer. I am NOT in the camp that believes cables are the end all be all of upgrades, but I do feel they allow your equipment to become more effective. Once again, they are not going to give more than they get. This goes for both power cables or speaker cables.

Resident Loser

04-05-2007, 07:07 AM

...this:

So what I am essentially saying is that if we a higher grade cable as opposed to a generic cable than the difference quite possible could be that the weaker cable does not deliver the full potential of what is available from the outlet, where the higher grade cable could be giving closer to 100% of that potential...

...would be something measureable with a VOM and/or ammeter...a simple comparison of voltage in vs. voltage out or current draw...I've not seen any claims for such improvement of these rudimentary parameters...It's always the unsolicited accolades of some sonic improvement which relies on what can only be charaterized as specious and anecdotal opinion rather than the two test instruments I've mentioned.

And just where would that disappearing power go off to? Would it most likely become heat; something the UL would probably find fault with along with any substantial, measureable drops.

jimHJJ(...strictly objective...)

E-Stat

04-05-2007, 08:08 AM

I have always heard about the noticable difference upgraded power cords can make with components.I never completely understood the premise.
The miles and miles argument about power cords completely misses the point. RFI is a real issue in many homes. I have two wireless access points, five CD/DVD players, three digital cable boxes and four wireless phones. Not to mention other sundry devices with digital components that spew hash back into the AC line. The biggest source of RFI is usually quite near the amplifier - your CD player. I find value to the use of shielded cords in my systems. The differences as with all cable improvements, however, are subtle. I would work improving other aspects of the system first.

Does anyone know if an internal connection could be made properly with a new cord.If not of course I can pull the cover.Thanks for any input.
Can be done, but probably not worth the effort. I rewired the captive cord in an older Pioneer CD player, but it does require some electronics expertise. I built a number of Dynaco kits and other DIY projects in my youth.

rw

BillyB

04-10-2007, 05:43 PM

The miles and miles argument about power cords completely misses the point. RFI is a real issue in many homes. I have two wireless access points, five CD/DVD players, three digital cable boxes and four wireless phones. Not to mention other sundry devices with digital components that spew hash back into the AC line. The biggest source of RFI is usually quite near the amplifier - your CD player. I find value to the use of shielded cords in my systems. The differences as with all cable improvements, however, are subtle. I would work improving other aspects of the system first.

Can be done, but probably not worth the effort. I rewired the captive cord in an older Pioneer CD player, but it does require some electronics expertise. I built a number of Dynaco kits and other DIY projects in my youth.

rw

I believe in the premise that RFI can have an effect on the power sources and the cables in close proximity to them.It's virtually impossible to keep the power cables and interconnects,etc away from each other.For whats it's worth my dealer's theory is the biggest improvement would be in the digital sources.He recommended the Diamonbacks which are supposed to be very good for their $200 cost.I'm in no rush on that but will try the amp power cord as I was given one that had the wrong style cord end for his application.
All other aspects of my system are recently upgrade so this is just one of those what if issues we all wrestle with.

I bought the reciever end for the back of the amp for $25 and am more than capable of installing it.A no risk experiment.If I notice a difference at some point I will buy the Diamondback for my CDP which is the Arcam 192T and is of a high enough quality to possibly justify trying this.
Not to change the subject but I see there is a huge market for power conditioners with some being serious money.Are they just a more high tech way of accomplishing this cleaner power that theoretically improves the performance of our A/V equipment.If they're not for real than at the
price of some that is truly a questionable product choice.

Anyway thanks for the replies as I realize this is far from a black and white issue but that's what this forum is for.I will post if I notice a real difference and I will give it time to ensure it's not a placebo effect.

royphil345

04-11-2007, 02:07 AM

I tend to take the "middle of the road" approach here...

I'm not sure if shielding AC cords or using AC cords of a heavier gauge than the house wiring for short distances would help... Maybe... Haven't been tempted to spend the time and money necessary to find out.

Although... I've always been a believer in making sure every connection is a good one. Hospital grade outlets make sense to me for under $20.00. Really grab those plugs. I make my own distribution boxes using them if necessary. I make sure my plugs are clean and in good condition or replace with hospital grade when necessary. I've heard about an audio mag article where they performed an experiment using an electric coffee pot. Water boiled more quickly when the pot was plugged into a hospital grade outlet.

http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=69&cat=Hubbell

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 05:05 AM

...replacing the power cord on my Waring Professional blender will make superior margaritas...less Residual Floobydust Interference...

jimHJJ(...yep...)

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 05:10 AM

...replacing the power cord on my Waring Professional blender will make superior margaritas...less Residual Floobydust Interference...

jimHJJ(...yep...)

We are all aware that you are unconvinced about the difference that cables make, so instead of bursting in with your smart comments, why not just leave the rest of us alone with our 'high-end cables' since we are all a bunch of fools. You simply can't let it rest. You can't let those who wish to enjoy this hobby enjoy it, instead you are set out to prove or disprove all aspects of this hobby in order to debate and argue with us. If the rest of us who want to spend money for tweaks here and there are satisfied than why do you care? Why can't we just enjoy it without it always becoming a huge issue?

MikeyBC

04-11-2007, 05:59 AM

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 06:20 AM

I really didnt think it could matter but i honestly did hear a difference on a Bryston 3B amplifier once using a Tara Labs power cord, and even if i "think" i'm hearing a difference then it really is a difference and that makes it worthwhile to me.

This is exactly why those who "DON'T hear or notice that difference should just stay in their camp and leave the rest of us alone. There is no use debating back and forth as neither side is going to move. There are far too many variables in this argument to really come to any conclusions anyway.

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 06:27 AM

We are all aware that you are unconvinced about the difference that cables make, so instead of bursting in with your smart comments, why not just leave the rest of us alone with our 'high-end cables' since we are all a bunch of fools. You simply can't let it rest. You can't let those who wish to enjoy this hobby enjoy it, instead you are set out to prove or disprove all aspects of this hobby in order to debate and argue with us. If the rest of us who want to spend money for tweaks here and there are satisfied than why do you care? Why can't we just enjoy it without it always becoming a huge issue?

...life is a learning experience. I'm quite comfortable with the possibility that some day, and some way there will be incontrovertible proof that will disabuse me of my POV...it just ain't happened yet...

You, however, seem to be deathly afraid of the flip-side of the coin...and all I am doing is presenting that side to the inquiring noobs, lest they fall prey to the pile of sh...shennanigans wrapped in the Tiffany gift box...

What really speaks volumes is your equating a seventeen word aside about a Waring blender as a "huge Issue"...

jimHJJ(...if your skin gets any thinner, you may need to be re-classified as an amphibian...)

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 06:33 AM

...less Residual Floobydust Interference...
If you're up for a quick experiment regarding "floobydust", take a CD player - any player including your battery powered Walkman and hold it near to an AM radio tuned off station. Notice any difference?

rw

markw

04-11-2007, 06:37 AM

Where never is heard a discouraging word and we ain't Roy Rogers.

News Flash! This heah is da real world, where people say what they want and those that object to different opinions can go home to mommy and cwy in their milk.

Noiw, unless you can come up with something aside from what essentially boils down to "Well, YOU shut up! I don't want to hear your opinion. Only mine counts", then please refrain from demeaning the spirit of this forum by commenting.

And, please note, I mention no names here. You can either take this advice or admit it's true.

GMichael

04-11-2007, 06:37 AM

What kind of cable do you have running from your fusebox to your wall socket? Seems to me that a power cord that is better than that is just for looks and bragging rights.

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 06:47 AM

What kind of cable do you have running from your fusebox to your wall socket? Seems to me that a power cord that is better than that is just for looks and bragging rights.
Filtration works anywhere downstream whether we're talking RFI with AV components or particulate with water filters. Especially when the source of the interference lies not in the wall, but sometimes inches away on your rack sharing the same AC.

rw

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 06:53 AM

If you're up for a quick experiment regarding "floobydust", take a CD player - any player including your battery powered Walkman and hold it near to an AM radio tuned off station. Notice any difference?

rw

...is I learned that trick nearly forty-years ago to identify specific, unmarked circuits...Injecting a signal (essentially from a spark-gap generator) at one end, the resultant RFI was carried over the wires and was easily located with a mis-tuned AM radio...the cheaper the better...

This proves: RFI exists? I concur...

jimHJJ(...we all know what I don't agree with...)

GMichael

04-11-2007, 06:53 AM

Filtration works anywhere downstream whether we're talking RFI with AV components or particulate with water filters. Especially when the source of the interference lies not in the wall, but sometimes inches away on your rack sharing the same AC.

rw

So, you are saying that it's the insulation, not the cable itself, that makes the biggest difference? I could get behind that.

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 07:05 AM

This proves: RFI exists? I concur...
Acknowledging the problem exists is the first step to resolution. :)

rw

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 07:10 AM

So, you are saying that it's the insulation, not the cable itself, that makes the biggest difference? I could get behind that.

...I believe it's a shielding concern...and I don't believe anyone has taken issue with the need for proper shielding when it is an issue as in "I hear radio stations when I play CDs"...

It get's dicey when any or all such interference is made suspect in masking "inner details", compromising "blackness" and other things of that sort...

jimHJJ(...those "audiophile" concerns...)

GMichael

04-11-2007, 07:16 AM

...I believe it's a shielding concern...and I don't believe anyone has taken issue with the need for proper shielding when it is an issue as in "I hear radio stations when I play CDs"...

It get's dicey when any or all such interference is made suspect in masking "inner details", compromising "blackness" and other things of that sort...

jimHJJ(...those "audiophile" concerns...)

Sorry, when I said insulation, I incorrectly assumed (there's that word) that shielding was a part of it.

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 07:24 AM

So, you are saying that it's the insulation, not the cable itself, that makes the biggest difference? I could get behind that.
There are two separate strategies used in many aftermarket or DIY power cords to address the problem of RFI generated noise in audio systems: active filter networks and effective shielding. I use Belden 83803 with Marinco plugs with my CD player. While it was primarily designed for powering fire alarms, the characteristics required to meet that need work very well for our purposes: 12 gauge, double shielding, and teflon insulation. You can read the tech sheet from there.

Belden 83803 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=100-790&CFID=11725054&CFTOKEN=41820051)

This (http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/diyMains/index.htm) link provides a better diagram of the cable

I find that the audible result of using active RFI filtering is a slight reduction in a kind of false brightness that such noise generates. You get a "blacker" background that allows more of the low level detail to be heard.

rw

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 07:26 AM

Sorry, when I said insulation, I incorrectly assumed (there's that word) that shielding was a part of it.

...all is forgiven...

jimHJJ(...just wanted to clarify...)

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 07:28 AM

It get's dicey when any or all such interference is made suspect in masking "inner details", compromising "blackness" and other things of that sort.
Just curious. Do you have any direct experience in this matter with any systems?

rw

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 08:07 AM

Just curious. Do you have any direct experience in this matter with any systems?

rw

...all of the possibilities that could affect S/N ratio, noisefloor, things of that nature, I have never found power, it's source or delivery system, to be an issue...Short answer: no...but that may also be attributable to owning "less-resolving" and non-high end gear...However, as my stuff is older, built with discrete components as opposed to ICs, op-amps, etc. I'd venture a guess that it's more on a par with today's higher-end gear than with the current crop of mass-market HT wares...Plus being an avowed Luddite, I have few potential generating sources and I know enough not to use dimmer-controlled lighting while seriously listening...Can't do much about the fridge...

I find the varying quality of source material to be the biggest fly in my ointment...

That Belden stuff...at the risk of repeating myself, you are using wire in place of cordage...

jimHJJ(...but thanks for asking...)

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 08:28 AM

...all of the possibilities that could affect S/N ratio, noisefloor, things of that nature, I have never found power, it's source or delivery system, to be an issue...Short answer: no...
This topic reminds me of the Yogi Berra quote: "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is".

I find the varying quality of source material to be the biggest fly in my ointment...
No disagreement here. This is simply a case of addressing one of many factors involved in the final outcome As for me, I choose to attack all the challenges.

That Belden stuff...at the risk of repeating myself, you are using wire in place of cordage...
Psst. Don't tell my CD player. Since it doesn't travel and compare notes with other components, it doesn't know the difference! :)

rw

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 08:58 AM

This topic reminds me of the Yogi Berra quote: "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is".

...I've never witnessed any related empirical evidence to further theorize about or subsequently try to remedy...

jimHJJ(...additionally, no IEC connector, no problem...)

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 09:02 AM

Just curious. Do you have any direct experience in this matter with any systems?

rw

He would rather argue with us about stuff that he has no direct experience with, unless of course he does have that direct experience in which case I'd love to hear all about it.

GMichael

04-11-2007, 09:06 AM

He would rather argue with us about stuff that he has no direct experience with, unless of course he does have that direct experience in which case I'd love to hear all about it.

DING DING!

And it's on, again.

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 09:11 AM

DING DING!

And it's on, again.

Where's your seat at? This could get ugly...oh well I guess I'm gonna hafta use my Muay Thai clinch.

GMichael

04-11-2007, 09:14 AM

Where's your seat at? This could get ugly...oh well I guess I'm gonna hafta use my Muay Thai clinch.

Front row. I've got the dips & chips. Shhhhhh... and beer in this wine sack.

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 09:16 AM

Front row. I've got the dips & chips. Shhhhhh... and beer in this wine sack.

This is an open brawl....beer and wine is always welcome.

markw

04-11-2007, 10:22 AM

Filtration works anywhere downstream whether we're talking RFI with AV components or particulate with water filters. Especially when the source of the interference lies not in the wall, but sometimes inches away on your rack sharing the same AC.

rwIf it's inches away in the same rack, odds are it'll be airborne, not passed through the power cord. Your example with that portable Cd player demonstrates that. There's no AC involved.

Not to mention that the power supply takes in 60 hz AC (and perhaps higher frequencies) but it processes that and outputs DC, and any hi frequency RF would be so attenuated as to bea non-issue.

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 11:05 AM

He would rather argue with us about stuff that he has no direct experience with, unless of course he does have that direct experience in which case I'd love to hear all about it.

...first of all presenting a different POV is not an argument...I do have experience with aftermarket speaker wiring, No audible diff until it all went terribly, terribly bad and I do have experience upgrading from OEM inclusion ICs to pricier ones, strictly on build quality issues and with ZERO discenible sonic differences...Given the fact that both were directly in the signal path and revealed nothing, why would anyone surmise that a power cord, an item so far removed from said signal path, would have any effect whatsoever...No empirical evidence to the contrary or performance complaints, I have no reason to go any further. Insofar as audible hash is concerned, if a better shielding will dispose of it, fine...regarding any of the other malarkey...well, S/N ratios can be measured...Anyone ever seen such specs provided to prove that "improvement"? Or widening or spreading out a sound stage using some of Shunyata's "Stardust" (at least that's what it used to be called)...all in the same bin as green markers, eutectic solders, mpingo blocks, tice clocks and 8X10s of Fatty Arbuckle...

As soon as you get any real evidence (as opposed to anecdotal hearsay) to the contrary, I'd love to hear all about it...

jimHJJ(...'til then...)

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 11:06 AM

...additionally, no IEC connector, no problem.
Well, if you choose to solve the problem, then you must rewire the unit or add an IEC jack. I have done that for my old CDP.

rw

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 11:11 AM

...first of all presenting a different POV is not an argument...I do have experience with aftermarket speaker wiring, No audible diff until it all went terribly, terribly bad and I do have experience upgrading from OEM inclusion ICs to pricier ones, strictly on build quality issues and with ZERO discenible sonic differences...Given the fact that both were directly in the signal path and revealed nothing, why would anyone surmise that a power cord, an item so far removed from said signal path, would have any effect whatsoever...No empirical evidence to the contrary or performance complaints, I have no reason to go any further. Insofar as audible hash is concerned, if a better shielding will dispose of it, fine...regarding any of the other malarkey...well, S/N ratios can be measured...Anyone ever seen such specs provided to prove that "improvement"? Or widening or spreading out a sound stage using some of Shunyata's "Stardust" (at least that's what it used to be called)...all in the same bin as green markers, eutectic solders, mpingo blocks, tice clocks and 8X10s of Fatty Arbuckle...

As soon as you get any real evidence (as opposed to anecdotal hearsay) to the contrary, I'd love to hear all about it...

jimHJJ(...'til then...)

What system and equipment were you using? This is what e-stat originally asked you and you still cannot cite any experience in working with a system and power cords.

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 11:12 AM

If it's inches away in the same rack, odds are it'll be airborne, not passed through the power cord. Your example with that portable Cd player demonstrates that. There's no AC involved.
AC wiring can serve as an effective antenna to receive and transmit the signal downstream. That's why shielded AC cords can be of value.

Not to mention that the power supply takes in 60 hz AC (and perhaps higher frequencies) but it processes that and outputs DC, and any hi frequency RF would be so attenuated as to bea non-issue.
That assumption is not supported by my experience nor that of quite a few manufacturers. The amount of RFI trapping varies greatly at the amplifier end. The addition of so many new digital based devices in our homes having switching power supplies has worsened the problem. There are some devices today that actually send wireless data directly through the AC!

rw

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 11:15 AM

Well, if you choose to solve the problem, then you must rewire the unit or add an IEC jack. I have done that for my old CDP.

rw

...I don't have a problem...certainly none I would pin on RFI and power cords...any effort involved in doing such a thing would simply be an inefficient use of time and money, when I could simply be listening to and enjoying some music...

Now give me a $6 pair of 'phones, some felt, masking tape and an X-acto knife and I can experiment for hours on end...

jimHJJ(...real problems, real solutions...)

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 11:21 AM

He would rather argue with us about stuff that he has no direct experience with, unless of course he does have that direct experience in which case I'd love to hear all about it.
Well, let's not go overboard here. He has already stated that. He is basing his opinion based upon the empirical results he has read. Which is why I used the Berra quote. The reality, as with other cables, is that such tests have not been performed using the cables we are discussing at any serious level to provide an answer either way.

I trust my own testing and that of many other trusted ears. For those who wish to protest loudly to the contrary, have at it. It was this very topic that originally drew me to AR. I remain continually amazed at the effort some folks exert to discuss that which they find or believe to be of no value. Admittedly, some go to extremes with AC conditioning. Harry Pearson uses no fewer than ten rather pricey Nordost Valhalla power cords and two Thor conditioners in his two channel music system. At least that many in the HT/Multichannel.

To each his own. :)

rw

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 11:29 AM

...I don't have a problem...certainly none I would pin on RFI and power cords.
Fair comments, but not necessarily relevant to others who are not as technology averse. I think it is a fair statement that most folks choose to have cell phones, wireless telephones, microwave ovens, digital cable boxes, flat panel TVs with switching power supplies, etc., etc. Heck even the new washer and dryer -- excuse me drying cabinet, has digital controls. I'm certainly not going to unplug all these various devices every time I wish to listen to music.

I'm convinced there is not a case of mass hysteria. It is a case of differing systems in differing environments with differing levels of performance expectation.

rw

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 11:32 AM

Well, let's not go overboard here. He has already stated that. He is basing his opinion based upon the empirical results he has read. Which is why I used the Berra quote. The reality, as with other cables, is that such tests have not been performed using the cables we are discussing at any serious level to provide an answer either way.

I trust my own testing and that of many other trusted ears. For those who wish to protest loudly to the contrary, have at it. It was this very topic that originally drew me to AR. I remain continually amazed at the effort some folks exert to discuss that which they find or believe to be of no value. Admittedly, some go to extremes with AC conditioning. Harry Pearson uses no fewer than ten rather pricey Nordost Valhalla power cords and two Thor conditioners in his two channel music system. At least that many in the HT/Multichannel.

To each his own. :)

rw

I certainly agree with that statement. "To each his own", which seems to only work one way around here. One side says "hey, prove that you can tell a difference" while the other side says "I don't have to prove anything, listen for yourself". I am on the side that says "take a listen for yourself", but the other side insists on going through the mathematical aspects and tries to disprove without actually 'listening'.

I don't have to prove what my ears tell me. I can't tell you the WHY or the HOW, but I can certainly bring people over to listen and decide for themself. Now, I can't just pretend like I don't notice in order to be drawn to the 'other' side. However, I have heard systems and tested out a variety of things in which case I came up with nearly identical results. Therefore what I find to be true is that there is no definites in this hobby. Each system, each cable, each speaker, whatever is going to sound and and perform different. Some people are trying to apply blanket rules and blanket laws to things that are out of their understanding or experience.

I think it's insane to think that power cables DON'T make a difference and equally I think it's insane to think that they make ALL the difference. The reality here is that it's all going to be dependant on the circumstances of each system and setup. Maybe those who have not experienced a difference have not had the right system and setup to tell a difference and it is not their fault that they are unaware of differences.

What's upsetting though is that the people who believe in the difference of equipment and things like cables is that we are never attacking those who believe otherwise, it's always the other way around. I am tolerate of their opinions when a newbie asks the hated question "Does a power cord make a difference".

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 11:50 AM

What system and equipment were you using? This is what e-stat originally asked you and you still cannot cite any experience in working with a system and power cords.

...I saw an answer...E-Stat, did you see one? GM? markw? Gee, I guess you're the only one who didn't...Very short attention span...

Perhaps, since you lay claim to having had an umbilical epiphany of sorts, you should describe what in particular you heard and under what conditions you heard them...sighted auditions, blind, double blind? Were the dB levels exact? How about the humidity...you know sound travels at different speeds depending on it's level...and that attention span...tsk, tsk...

jimHJJ(...in any event we're all keen to know...)

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 11:56 AM

What's upsetting though is that the people who believe in the difference of equipment and things like cables is that we are never attacking those who believe otherwise, it's always the other way around. I am tolerate of their opinions when a newbie asks the hated question "Does a power cord make a difference".
Well, in the grand scheme of things, none of this should really be upsetting. With a different hobby, there are those who get all excited about the divide in the motorcycle community. I'm not a Harley-Davidson fan. Air cooled 45 degree V twins are bronze age archaic. They all shake. They are not as reliable as water cooled designs. Period. Even my lawn tractor uses an inherently balanced 90 degree V twin. As does the V-4 in my Honda. Having said that, they are quite popular. For reasons that are very different from my buying criteria.

As for the debate, let each side present its evidence so that others may arrive at their own conclusions. Emotional responses should not be a factor. I will readily agree, however, that buying a $500 power cable is not the first upgrade someone should consider if they are using a typical receiver based system.

rw

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 12:00 PM

Were the dB levels exact?
Actually, the nice thing about just comparing power cords is that you don't have to worry about matching gain. :)

rw

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 12:02 PM

...I saw an answer...E-Stat, did you see one? GM? markw? Gee, I guess you're the only one who didn't...Very short attention span...

Perhaps, since you lay claim to having had an umbilical epiphany of sorts, you should describe what in particular you heard and under what conditions you heard them...sighted auditions, blind, double blind? Were the dB levels exact? How about the humidity...you know sound travels at different speeds depending on it's level...and that attention span...tsk, tsk...

jimHJJ(...in any event we're all keen to know...)

Sometimes I put the better gas in my car instead of the cheap stuff. My car runs smoother, better acceleration, etc etc. Some people think it's all the same junk. I don't always spend the extra cents to get the 'good stuff' cause it's all outrageous, but sometimes I splurg. I don't need a double blind test to determine what I am noticing about my car. What you are asking me to do is pretend that the difference isn't there. I'm asking you to take a ride with me and determine for yourself.

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 12:04 PM

Actually, the nice thing about just comparing power cords is that you don't have to worry about matching gain. :)

rw

I was going to make that same comment, but I didn't want to try and correct someone who is always right.

GMichael

04-11-2007, 12:04 PM

Sometimes I put the better gas in my car instead of the cheap stuff. My car runs smoother, better acceleration, etc etc. Some people think it's all the same junk. I don't always spend the extra cents to get the 'good stuff' cause it's all outrageous, but sometimes I splurg. I don't need a double blind test to determine what I am noticing about my car. What you are asking me to do is pretend that the difference isn't there. I'm asking you to take a ride with me and determine for yourself.

Where are we going? Should a bring a hat? Will I need a jacket? Are we going up the coast? Oh, I do love a nice ride up the coast. Can we go up the coast?

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 12:10 PM

Where are we going? Should a bring a hat? Will I need a jacket? Are we going up the coast? Oh, I do love a nice ride up the coast. Can we go up the coast?

We take my "Jag-year" (Jaguar for those who don't get this joke) around the bends of Highway 1??? Oh wait...I don't have a "Jag-year". Grrrr.

GMichael

04-11-2007, 12:12 PM

We take my "Jag-year" (Jaguar for those who don't get this joke) around the bends of Highway 1??? Oh wait...I don't have a "Jag-year". Grrrr.

Tease

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 12:19 PM

Fair comments, but not necessarily relevant to others who are not as technology averse. I think it is a fair statement that most folks choose to have cell phones, wireless telephones, microwave ovens, digital cable boxes, flat panel TVs with switching power supplies, etc., etc. Heck even the new washer and dryer -- excuse me drying cabinet, has digital controls. I'm certainly not going to unplug all these various devices every time I wish to listen to music.

I'm convinced there is not a case of mass hysteria. It is a case of differing systems in differing environments with differing levels of performance expectation.

rw

...as I recall there is the proximty effect...that the strength and therefore the effect RFI produces, drops off as the distance to its' source increases...I forget if it's linear, inversely proportional or logarithmic but since that is the case, and anything that produces such emissions is governed by FCC guidelines, the digital controls on your dryer, in the laundry room is far enough away from your audio gear to preclude any airborne contamination (unless you think all this wiring has hung you out to dry)...Which leaves us with artifacts in the AC lines...How would better shielding of a AC cord protect from that? It's coming from within, you would need some sort of filter and drain to accomplish anything; foil layers and braided mesh, sandwiched between all the Teflon in the world isn't going to do that.

jimHJJ(...things are getting convoluted...)

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 12:27 PM

How would better shielding of a AC cord protect from that? It's coming from within, you would need some sort of filter and drain to accomplish anything; foil layers and braided mesh, sandwiched between all the Teflon in the world isn't going to do that.
It doesn't. Who said otherwise? If you read one of my earlier posts, you'll note my observation that there are two separate strategies - designed to combat two different issues - used in the better aftermarket cords.

...things are getting convoluted.
I don't see it that way.

rw

Resident Loser

04-11-2007, 12:45 PM

Actually, the nice thing about just comparing power cords is that you don't have to worry about matching gain. :)

rw

...but in practice perhaps not...after powering down to swap line cords how could you be certain that on re-application of power the amp has reached stasis and is now level matched? Particularly with tubes? Then you run into the problem of time...with any passage of time between samples, how could you be sure of an actual valid and discernable sonic difference?

jimHJJ(...that's why there are ABX tests...)

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 12:51 PM

It doesn't. Who said otherwise? If you read one of my earlier posts, you'll note my observation that there are two separate strategies - designed to combat two different issues - used in the better aftermarket cords.

I don't see it that way.

rw

he likes to put words in your mouth....or in this case....text in your posts.

jneutron

04-11-2007, 12:57 PM

....but the other side insists on going through the mathematical aspects........

Math??? What math:confused:

Cheers, John

GMichael

04-11-2007, 01:02 PM

Math??? What math:confused:

Cheers, John

That would be how RF signals are diminished by the inverse of (3.14, times 3, times the distance from the source.)

PeruvianSkies

04-11-2007, 01:06 PM

That would be how RF signals are diminished by the inverse of (3.14, times 3, times the distance from the source.)

Thanks Gmichael for explaining...I'm having a hard time keeping up with all the debates I seem to be in at the moment. lol.

E-Stat

04-11-2007, 01:33 PM

...but in practice perhaps not...after powering down to swap line cords how could you be certain that on re-application of power the amp has reached stasis and is now level matched? Particularly with tubes?
These are valid concerns since I find that most components do undergo some sonic changes during the first hour of powerup. Which is why I don't find much value in audio-cowboy quick ABX comparisons. Especially those with added cables and boxes assumed to be completely perfect. Which leads to my preference for...

Then you run into the problem of time...with any passage of time between samples, how could you be sure of an actual valid and discernable sonic difference?
...long term evaluations despite the objections voiced. I have been nurtured over a long period of time in an environment where I was constantly hearing new gear. Of all sorts. Many brands which I had never even heard of before. I worked at an audio store and have professional audio reviewer friends. I was taught how and what to listen for by very experienced mentors. Experience in music and extended exposure to high performance audio. I truly believe practice helps. While one's mood, the phase of the moon, the degree of inebriation, circadian cycles all vary, I find that using well known program material in well known systems provides the greatest insight to subtle changes. YMMV.

One of my greatest joys is hearing something new in a piece of music that I've listened to for decades. Sometimes that comes in big chunks - like a trip in 2003 to hear a reviewer's spectacular system where my point of reference was completely changed. Or, most commonly where the change I detect is merely a nuance.

rw

jneutron

04-11-2007, 02:17 PM

That would be how RF signals are diminished by the inverse of (3.14, times 3, times the distance from the source.)

That's not math..:sleep:

Magnetic fields for a single conductor fall off as 1/r.

Magnetic fields for a conductor pair fall off as 1/r2.

The field of a line cord is such a field. It is a dipole. Do not consider the fields of a line cord as radiated propagation of energy, consider it in terms of the static fields generated.

A twisted conductor line cord has a helically oriented magnetic field. If you integrate that field over multiple twist pitches, you find that it integrates to zero every 360 degrees. Chances are, the IEC and wall outlet are setup to NOT zero out.

The trapped flux within a two cord ground loop scenario DOES NOT diminish with distance, it continues to integrate upward. This is because one leg of the loop is buried within the source cord, the other leg is the intercept cord. Net result, the closer the intercept cord is to the source cord, the more flux travels outside the loop and therefore does not contribute to the loop intercept, reducing haversine derived harmonics induced within the loop.

Far field, rf does not significantly reduce, due to the fact that the distance from the point origion is far away.

The intensity of a planar wave is proportional to the equidistant surface from the point of origion. For a long conductor, that surface is a cylinder, and the surface increases in proportion to the radius, intensity varies as 1/r. For a very short radiator, the surface is a sphere, and the intensity drops off as 1/r2

Cheers, John

BillyB

04-11-2007, 02:51 PM

I had a feeling when I asked my original question this thread would get intense.Not my intention but I find the varying opinions very interesting and I do try and take them all in objectively.I've certainly heard enough points on the pro-cable argument to get my attention.I'll replace that Amp power cord as per my original plans.It's peanuts compared to what my system cost.

I don't have the technical expertise of many here, but I do have a good system and a pretty critical ear.I won't make any positive claims with this switch unless I hear them.However if I do hear a difference those $200 Diamondbacks for my CDP will be a given.I can't financially justify any major component upgrades for quite a while so this small stuff is a fun way to tweak your system.

Very relative to this discussion is also the cost of the cord regardless of whether or not you believe in the premise.A $100 TO $200 Cord upgrade is not a tragic situation if little or no difference is heard.(I would imagine some retailers will also take the cord back if you are unhappy with it)I've seen these cords go for insane prices and yes for most of us that is almost impossible to justify.

Resident Loser

04-12-2007, 05:11 AM

...looking for clarification putting words in someone's mouth?

...he likes to put words in your mouth....or in this case....text in your posts...

In your case it could only improve things...but be that as it may...

It doesn't. Who said otherwise? If you read one of my earlier posts, you'll note my observation that there are two separate strategies - designed to combat two different issues - used in the better aftermarket cords...

As I said, clarification...If you filter your AC to reduce or eliminate all those wire-borne digital nasties that's one thing...but again, given the limited radiation fields and that proximity effect, the need for shielding of power cords seems a moot point...

I've seen many a notice in medical offices prohibiting the use of cell phones, but never one for Gameboys, CDPs, PDAs, calculators et al...why? Cell phones are tranceivers, designed to do their thing at some distance from the nearest cell site, going through most walls and ceilings etc., their output measured in watts...The other stuff isn't and has a finite limit as to their unwanted output as governed by the FCC. So while it may be troublesome, I can't see why simply following the old guideline of never running power and signal wires in proximity of, or parallel to, each other isn't sufficient in most cases.

If we're taliking about processor hash coming from each component so equipped, I'll respond has I have done numerous times...sounds like bad design to me...If your processor is affecting other components, what is it doing to the signal passing through the component that contains it? A good design will not allow its' processor to impinge on the audio signal..which means internal shielding or otherwise separating the audio signal from the control signals.

As has been pointed out numerous times in the past, picking up the overt things like radio stations, CB radio and the like are usually due to the lengths and configuration of the wiring involved and there are cases where shielding may lessen or eliminate those problems...sometimes even re-positioning a component or rerouting a wire will do the trick...

As to widening or depening a soundstage or lowering a noise floor...I don't think so...

To my way of thinking, if you really get down'n'dirty and consider all of the various why's and wherefores, most of the arguments in support of these tweeks are like a bucket with a hole in it...

jimHJJ(...it may seem to hold water, but winds up empty by the time you drag it home...)

E-Stat

04-12-2007, 05:28 AM

I can't see why simply following the old guideline of never running power and signal wires in proximity of, or parallel to, each other isn't sufficient in most cases.
Sufficient for what?

If we're taliking about processor hash coming from each component so equipped...
I'm referring to switching power supply hash. Easily seen on scopes.

To my way of thinking, if you really get down'n'dirty and consider all of the various why's and wherefores, most of the arguments in support of these tweeks are like a bucket with a hole in it...
That is your viewpoint. I don't use arguments as the basis for mine. I find listening far more valuable. :)

rw

GMichael

04-12-2007, 05:35 AM

That's not math..:sleep:

Magnetic fields for a single conductor fall off as 1/r.

Magnetic fields for a conductor pair fall off as 1/r2.

The field of a line cord is such a field. It is a dipole. Do not consider the fields of a line cord as radiated propagation of energy, consider it in terms of the static fields generated.

A twisted conductor line cord has a helically oriented magnetic field. If you integrate that field over multiple twist pitches, you find that it integrates to zero every 360 degrees. Chances are, the IEC and wall outlet are setup to NOT zero out.

The trapped flux within a two cord ground loop scenario DOES NOT diminish with distance, it continues to integrate upward. This is because one leg of the loop is buried within the source cord, the other leg is the intercept cord. Net result, the closer the intercept cord is to the source cord, the more flux travels outside the loop and therefore does not contribute to the loop intercept, reducing haversine derived harmonics induced within the loop.

Far field, rf does not significantly reduce, due to the fact that the distance from the point origion is far away.

The intensity of a planar wave is proportional to the equidistant surface from the point of origion. For a long conductor, that surface is a cylinder, and the surface increases in proportion to the radius, intensity varies as 1/r. For a very short radiator, the surface is a sphere, and the intensity drops off as 1/r2

Cheers, John

My Calculus teachers always told me, "If there's more than one way to get to the answer, then the simplest way is the correct one."

jneutron

04-12-2007, 06:23 AM

My Calculus teachers always told me, "If there's more than one way to get to the answer, then the simplest way is the correct one."

Sheesh, I think all my calculus teachers are dead..:(

Oversimplification of a complex problem rarely works in the long run. Hawksford fell into that trap when he analyzed the bejeesus out of the skin depth approximation equations, instead of consideration of the actual problem at hand.

Line cord radiation falls into that boat. If you simplify the problem to just radiation of energy, you consider only the methods to stop radiating TEM waves, or the reception of them. Unfortunately, that simplification does nothing for the prevention of the local magnetic fields and their actions. They are entirely different beasts in how they setup, their nearfield intensity, how to stop them from being splayed out, and how to make external wires insensitive to them.

That is why I posted the relations for both local e/m fields as well as radiated ones.

THEY ARE DIFFERENT BEASTS, AND MUST BE DEALT WITH AS SUCH...

RFI is stopped by shields surrounding a linecord, 60 hz magfield is not.

A shielded twisted pair is ineffective against the haversine draw within the pair, both for transmittal and reception.

TEM wave reception drops down in effect as the receiver gets farther away, whereas ground loop issues involving the line cord increase the farther away the wire gets..

Oversimplification loses much when ill considered.

Cheers, John

GMichael

04-12-2007, 06:29 AM

Sheesh, I think all my calculus teachers are dead..:(

Oversimplification of a complex problem rarely works in the long run. Hawksford fell into that trap when he analyzed the bejeesus out of the skin depth approximation equations, instead of consideration of the actual problem at hand.

Line cord radiation falls into that boat. If you simplify the problem to just radiation of energy, you consider only the methods to stop radiating TEM waves, or the reception of them. Unfortunately, that simplification does nothing for the prevention of the local magnetic fields and their actions. They are entirely different beasts in how they setup, their nearfield intensity, how to stop them from being splayed out, and how to make external wires insensitive to them.

That is why I posted the relations for both local e/m fields as well as radiated ones.

THEY ARE DIFFERENT BEASTS, AND MUST BE DEALT WITH AS SUCH...

RFI is stopped by shields surrounding a linecord, 60 hz magfield is not.

A shielded twisted pair is ineffective against the haversine draw within the pair, both for transmittal and reception.

TEM wave reception drops down in effect as the receiver gets farther away, whereas ground loop issues involving the line cord increase the farther away the wire gets..

Oversimplification loses much when ill considered.

Cheers, John

You do know that I'm just playing with you right?

Resident Loser

04-12-2007, 06:47 AM

(1)Sufficient for what?

(2)I'm referring to switching power supply hash. Easily seen on scopes.

(3)That is your viewpoint. I don't use arguments as the basis for mine. I find listening far more valuable. :)

rw

...(1)Obviating the need for extree-speshul power cords...

...(2)What is that power supply doing to the signal passing through the component which contains said switching power supply?

...(3)So you use no supportive arguments other than strictly the results of trial-and-error experimentation as a result of long-term listening? Seems a bit bass-ackwards to me...We've got a fix before we actually identify a problem? If the IEC connectors weren't used as a manufacturing expedient, there would be no "cottage-industry" spawned...no one would have looked to AC cords as a "problem" if a simple swap wasn't so...so...expedient...Sounds like drug company logic..."Gee boss, we came across this compound that happens to make folks pee less...maybe we can take this plain old everyday annoyance, call it a disease, give it a name and make oodles of cash...we can advertise it, and tell folks to ask their doctors about it and then give the doctors pre-printed 'scrip pads..." or maybe you could drink a little less than the governmet recommended gallon and certainly avoid drinking copious amounts before bed...really ain't no problem but they sure can convince everyone there is...but, as is my penchant, I digress

Geez I coulda' sworn there was mention made of some specific sources of all this sonic hash and why they need to be quelled...the argument being (a) these things exist, (b) they come via the mains from washers and dryers and...(c) they come from adjacent components, and (d) they come from all these post-yuppie-riffic electronic annoyances that festoon the average homestead...

And we all know what my counter-arguments are...

jimHJJ(...Sooooo...)

jneutron

04-12-2007, 08:12 AM

You do know that I'm just playing with you right?

No..it did not occur to me..ya got me big time..hook, line, sinker, boat, ocean, planet..arrghgh

Sigh,

Cheers, john aka dunderhead..

ps..gona crawl back into that hole till the next eclipse...

E-Stat

04-12-2007, 08:13 AM

...(1)Obviating the need for extree-speshul power cords...
How would medical companies have any idea (or more importantly, care) what is audible for audio systems?

...(2)What is that power supply doing to the signal passing through the component which contains said switching power supply?
I really don't care what is happening to the "signal" going through my washing machine or microwave oven.

...(3)So you use no supportive arguments other than strictly the results of trial-and-error experimentation as a result of long-term listening?
The "argument" remains the audibility of untrapped RFI that gets amplified downstream.

Seems a bit bass-ackwards to me...We've got a fix before we actually identify a problem?
Why on earth do you make that assumption?

If the IEC connectors weren't used as a manufacturing expedient, there would be no "cottage-industry" spawned...no one would have looked to AC cords as a "problem" if a simple swap wasn't so...so...expedient...
Nonsense. Power conditioning products have been available for decades.

...but, as is my penchant, I digress
Yep, I'll have to agree with you here. :)

rw

Resident Loser

04-12-2007, 08:20 AM

...gona crawl back into that hole till the next eclipse...

...there was an eclipse? Where? D@mn, I like them things, where was I?

jimHJJ(...probably not enough light to see it...)

GMichael

04-12-2007, 08:28 AM

No..it did not occur to me..ya got me big time..hook, line, sinker, boat, ocean, planet..arrghgh

Sigh,

Cheers, john aka dunderhead..

ps..gona crawl back into that hole till the next eclipse...

So sorry. I'm a baaaaaaaaaad poster.

jneutron

04-12-2007, 08:34 AM

So sorry. I'm a baaaaaaaaaad poster.

bully.. meanie..

Sounds like Mae..."when I'm good I'm good, when I'm bad...........I'm really good.":ihih:

Keep up the good work..

John

Resident Loser

04-12-2007, 08:45 AM

...convoluted springs to the fore yet again......

[QUOTE=E-Stat]How would medical companies have any idea (or more importantly, care) what is audible for audio systems?

Here it comes, straight outta' left field...MEDICAL COMPANIES...This is Audio Review and we were talkin' audio components and the power cords that connect them weren't we?...from whence come the vital signs monitors?

I really don't care what is happening to the "signal" going through my washing machine or microwave oven.

I thought the power conditioner trapped all that stuff...besides you know perfectly well to what I'm referring...

The "argument" remains the audibility of untrapped RFI that gets amplified downstream.

Again...untrapped RFI...how do sheilded power cords eliminate wire-borne hash a power conditioner missed...

Why on earth do you make that assumption?

No assumption...it's a "fix" looking for a problem

Nonsense. Power conditioning products have been available for decades.

A...um...the subject was IEC connectors and the "cottage industry" of power cords...or so I thought...besides aren't power conditioners further back upstream...at least according to my Silva compass...your Garvin GPS must be runnin' low on batts...

Yep, I'll have to agree with you here. :)

Nice to be able to agree on something

jimHJJ(...and with that brick wall...)

E-Stat

04-12-2007, 09:23 AM

Here it comes, straight outta' left field...MEDICAL COMPANIES...This is Audio Review and we were talkin' audio components and the power cords that connect them weren't we?...from whence come the vital signs monitors?
Gee that’s funny. That is exactly what I was thinkin’ when you brought up the topic in post # 71!

I thought the power conditioner trapped all that stuff...besides you know perfectly well to what I'm referring...
Honestly, I don’t. RL, the cord is the power conditioner.

Again...untrapped RFI...how do sheilded power cords eliminate wire-borne hash a power conditioner missed...
Same answer as above. See post # 33 for more details. In my experience, traditional conditioners limit the dynamic range of large power amplifiers. My VTLs draw 10 amps each at maximum output. I have four conditioners that I use primarily on the video systems.

A...um...the subject was IEC connectors and the "cottage industry" of power cords...or so I thought...besides aren't power conditioners further back upstream...at least according to my Silva compass...your Garvin GPS must be runnin' low on batts...
The topic remains power conditioning. There are different ways to achieve that goal. Shielded power cords with RC networks qualify as such. As for me, I put the solution nearest to the affected device. How did you know I have a Garvin GPS? Yes, the Quest 2 is a nifty portable unit. Has all of the US, Canada, and even Puerto Rico mapped. In ’05, my wife attended a medical conference in PR and I tagged along. Got in some good scuba diving (which does wonders for clearing the ears) and the trusty Quest led me through a circuitous mountain path to the Arecibo Observatory for a tour.

Nice to be able to agree on something
I suspect we agree on many things, just not this one. Like the joy we experience while listening to music. :)

rw

Resident Loser

04-12-2007, 10:08 AM

[QUOTE=E-Stat]Gee that’s funny. That is exactly what I was thinkin’ when you brought up the topic in post # 71!

...suspect you know precisely the point I was trying to make re: cell phones and other electronics vis a' vis RFI transmission...

Honestly, I don’t. RL, the cord is the power conditioner.

OK...I'll bite...link please, preferably one with a schematic or at least some technical details re: these filtering ntwks...always willing to learn...

How did you know I have a Garvin GPS?

I know a great...many...things...Bach's Toccata and Fugue would seem appropriate at this point

I suspect we agree on many things, just not this one. Like the joy we experience while listening to music. :)

jimHJJ(...something else we agree on...)

E-Stat

04-12-2007, 11:34 AM

...suspect you know precisely the point I was trying to make re: cell phones and other electronics vis a' vis RFI transmission.
I gather that you assume that if other digital devices don't disturb medical instrumentation (re: post #71), then why would they be of concern to audio enthusiasts? I'll repeat my answer. How would medical companies have any idea (or more importantly, care) what is audible for audio systems? Especially when those offending digital devices are plugged into the AC (unlike your portable device example).

OK...I'll bite...link please, preferably one with a schematic or at least some technical details re: these filtering ntwks...always willing to learn...
I don't know of any links that provide that kind of proprietary information. They're not necessarily exotic in their design.

...something else we agree on.
Good!

rw

PeruvianSkies

04-12-2007, 12:27 PM

I simply can't keep reading this stuff anymore...it's making my head hurt in anguish over the very nature of the entire thing. No side is willing to give in on this issue, it's a waste of time and energy. I'd much rather enjoy my system w/ power cords and whether they are helping or not, I could care less cuz it sounds too damn good to matter at this point.

dmoes

04-12-2007, 03:09 PM

My humble Thoughts on Power Cords
I doubt that spending Hundreds of dollars on a single chord is worth it but there are a few things that I do to clean up the power a bit before it gets the component.
For the amp a heavy guage powercord is a good Idea nothing more that 14 guage though since thats what is in your walls so anyting thicker unless your outlet is at the other end of the house is a waste of copper. components like DVDs and cable/satalite boxes that draw less than a max of 50 to 100 watts realy don.t need the thick stuff.
You should use good connectors and outlets . Hospital grade is good but any high quallity grade will do fine. Try when possible to keep the power chords away from the rest of the wiring. Use a good power strip that not only has surge protection but EMI and trainsient filers you can get something like theTripplite Isobar ultra for under $80 that has EMI/transient filtering with multiple Capacitors and chokes on the incomming power plus additional emi filtering between outlet banks that can reduce transfer of noise generated in one components power supply from effecting another device.

last I wrap the chords a few times through a ferrite core keeping close to the component. I am not sure where to get these Ferite cores I managed to salvage a bunch when they discarded a bunch at work. they are a ferite ring assembles in two halves that can be opened to wrap the wire then clamped closed again. I can't say for sure how much of a difference in the general sound is but it eliminated the pops clicks and visble interference on the TV that I had prior to the rewiring.

as for residual Floobydust? This comes from a loose nut on the remote control.

PeruvianSkies

04-13-2007, 04:47 PM

looks like we have a cease fire on this thread.

E-Stat

04-14-2007, 09:57 AM

looks like we have a cease fire on this thread.
It is unfortunate that many of these debates in the past deteriorated into personal attacks, challenges and the like.

Because my opinion is based upon years of direct experience with numerous cords and conditioners on different systems (not limited to my own), there is nothing for me to "give into". My experience is, well my experience. I don't find speculation to be especially valuable in this matter.

rw

PeruvianSkies

04-14-2007, 11:30 AM

It is unfortunate that many of these debates in the past deteriorated into personal attacks, challenges and the like.

Because my opinion is based upon years of direct experience with numerous cords and conditioners on different systems (not limited to my own), there is nothing for me to "give into". My experience is, well my experience. I don't find speculation to be especially valuable in this matter.

rw

Well, I am total agreement with you about cords and conditioners and likewise have seen the results, which I don't need to be proved different from. I can't just suddently NOT believe what I have witnessed to be true. So maybe a cease fire is the best as neither side has more to offer and no ones opinion will be changed through text, only ears.

MikeyBC

04-14-2007, 02:05 PM

WOW a peaceful ending...yay !

:)

Resident Loser

04-16-2007, 05:07 AM

WOW a peaceful ending...yay !

:)

...and...WARNING! WARNING!...here comes the incendiary part...I have a life, need time to listen to music, and don't do weekends 'round these parts...

But anyway...de facto cessation aborted...my attempt at an analogy re: cell phones. medical devices, etc. was that there are devices that broadcast RFI...there are other devices that don't (or at least shouldn't AND if they do are subject to limitations of the proximity effect)...and not that anyone in the medical devices industry gives de-friggin'-fibrillator about audio and vice-versa...

As I see it:

(1)You clean up the mains feed to your audio gear with a power conditioner...

(2)You thwart non-AC-line-sourced RFI, as in radio waves, CBs, processor hash (which for some reasons defies the physical limits of said proximity effect, etc.) with a shielded cord...

What else is there? And I'm [really tryin' to understand the POV...As stated previously, any digital/processor artifacts within a component should be segregated from the audio signal by design and as a by-product should also be incapable of contaminating adjacent components, wiring, etc.

I don't see and cannot quite comprehend what could possibly remain from an EMI/RFI POV...and somehow a further removing of the sonic lint from the black fabric, with something above and beyond a shielded power cord, simply makes no sense IMO...Or are we simply talkin' belt AND suspenders?

jimHJJ(...happy Monday!...)

PeruvianSkies

04-16-2007, 06:37 AM

of the horror movie where you think the bad guys dead...and then he just keeps getting back up again and again and again....

Resident Loser

04-16-2007, 07:16 AM

of the horror movie where you think the bad guys dead...and then he just keeps getting back up again and again and again....

...the adults are trying to talk...

jimHJJ(...capiche?...)

PeruvianSkies

04-16-2007, 07:31 AM

...the adults are trying to talk...

jimHJJ(...capiche?...)

Did you think I was talking to you? I never directed that statement towards anyone, but since you had a comeback you must have felt that it was...I wonder why. hmmmm.

E-Stat

04-16-2007, 07:50 AM

(1)You clean up the mains feed to your audio gear with a power conditioner...

(2)You thwart non-AC-line-sourced RFI, as in radio waves, CBs, processor hash (which for some reasons defies the physical limits of said proximity effect, etc.) with a shielded cord...
First of all conventional power conditioners are not ideal for high powered receivers and power amps because they limit current. Aftermarket cords work better for them. As for your second point, you're still confusing the villains. Go back to post #72 regarding the noise that switching power supplies throw back into the AC. The nearby problem is your CD/DVD player that generates a strong RF field which may be amplified downstream.

As stated previously, any digital/processor artifacts within a component should be segregated from the audio signal by design and as a by-product should also be incapable of contaminating adjacent components, wiring, etc.
Unfortunately, there is a difference between should and do.

I don't see and cannot quite comprehend what could possibly remain from an EMI/RFI POV...
Once you adequately filter the noise generated by said, then nothing does remain. Other than an unveiled signal. :)

rw

Resident Loser

04-16-2007, 08:53 AM

Did you think I was talking to you? I never directed that statement towards anyone, but since you had a comeback you must have felt that it was...I wonder why. hmmmm.

...no idea, nor do I care, as to whom you were talking to...the simple fact is you were and since by your own admission this thread has caused your head to hurt, you should probably sit this out...

jimHJJ(...now please, I have an intelligent adult to whom I need reply...)

Resident Loser

04-16-2007, 09:16 AM

First of all conventional power conditioners are not ideal for high powered receivers and power amps because they limit current. Aftermarket cords work better for them. As for your second point, you're still confusing the villains. Go back to post #72 regarding the noise that switching power supplies throw back into the AC. The nearby problem is your CD/DVD player that generates a strong RF field which may be amplified downstream.

Unfortunately, there is a difference between should and do.

Once you adequately filter the noise generated by said, then nothing does remain. Other than an unveiled signal. :)

rw

...what I'm gonna' do...when time allows, I'll bring a test device home with me to help gauge the radiated hash fields...I have no idea what this will prove, but what the hey...

jimHJJ(...I'm game...)

PeruvianSkies

04-16-2007, 10:00 AM

...what I'm gonna' do...when time allows, I'll bring a test device home with me to help gauge the radiated hash fields...I have no idea what this will prove, but what the hey...

jimHJJ(...I'm game...)

How about the radiated hash fields coming from your mouth? That would be off the charts as you say so much, yet say so little. The only reason my head hurts is from your psychobabble. You just can't let things be. This thread was at a standstill, but then out-of-retirement you have to come back with more useless ramblings. Blah blah blah. What are you trying to prove exactly? I think that E-stat and I have already made up our minds as it would seem you have as well, so this is never going to get resolved. You believe what you want and we'll believe what we want.

have a life, need time to listen to music, and don't do weekends 'round these parts...

so that explains why it's so nice and quiet around here on the weekends...

Resident Loser

04-16-2007, 11:00 AM

How about the radiated hash fields coming from your mouth? That would be off the charts as you say so much, yet say so little. The only reason my head hurts is from your psychobabble. You just can't let things be. This thread was at a standstill, but then out-of-retirement you have to come back with more useless ramblings. Blah blah blah. What are you trying to prove exactly? I think that E-stat and I have already made up our minds as it would seem you have as well, so this is never going to get resolved. You believe what you want and we'll believe what we want.

so that explains why it's so nice and quiet around here on the weekends...

...I don't give a fiddler's fornication what goes on in your "mind"...although I'm disposed to give E-Stat the benefit of doubt and actually do some testing...And again, and I realize how difficult this is for you to cope with, it's more for the noobs than anything else...so like it or not TFB...

Nice and quiet? You mean another boring meeting of the mutual admiration society, where never is heard a discouraging word? A nice warm and fuzzy place where your brain won't hurt?

jimHJJ(...bite me...and better buy Bayer...)

daviethek

04-17-2007, 06:52 AM

E-Stat

04-17-2007, 07:18 AM

In a somewhat related subject, are any of you spoon benders aware of a generic whole-house power conditioning product that could be installed by an electrician at the junction box?
Such devices exist to combat issues originating with the power source and to provide whole house surge protection.

It might remove the need to fret over piece-meal improvements in power quality at the component level.
How would such a device address locally generated RFI and noise put back into the AC only inches or feet away from the amplification stages?

rw

Resident Loser

04-17-2007, 07:37 AM

Entertaining debate, but I would call this one a draw.

In a somewhat related subject, are any of you spoon benders aware of a generic whole-house power conditioning product that could be installed by an electrician at the junction box? It might remove the need to fret over piece-meal improvements in power quality at the component level.

...if I read E-Stat correctly, a whole-house conditioner at the service entrance would still present problems. Other appliances, etc. and the audio gear would be connected on the post side of the unit, so nearer to the audio stuff is prefereable keeping the fridge, etc. on the pre- side...and then we get into the current limiting aspect and the need for individual treatment...While I understand the basis for his point, the concept of some sort of "passive" conditioning seems to me to be more one of wishful thinking...I mean there are chokes that are fitted to data cables, but in that case we're dealing with data, at data frequencies and speeds, regular, sychronized packets and streams, not random, errant sources of audio "veiling"...

Once we get beyond AC line-borne artifacts and airborne RFI we are then confronted by some sort of floating intra-system "feedback" that these power cords passively drain off?...I ain't no EE but...'dunno 'bout that...the more troubleshooting logic I try to apply to the situation, the less logical it all becomes.

jimHJJ(...spoon benders?...good one...it may get you some red chicklets tho'...)

E-Stat

04-17-2007, 07:59 AM

...we are then confronted by some sort of floating intra-system "feedback" that these power cords passively drain off?...I ain't no EE but...'dunno 'bout that...the more troubleshooting logic I try to apply to the situation, the less logical it all becomes.
Where on earth did you get that concept?

rw

PeruvianSkies

04-17-2007, 08:05 AM

Where on earth did you get that concept?

rw

From his fantasy concept bag-o-nonsense. Didn't ya know?

Resident Loser

04-17-2007, 08:12 AM

Where on earth did you get that concept?

rw

...post #96...Wherein it is written:

...First of all conventional power conditioners are not ideal for high powered receivers and power amps because they limit current. Aftermarket cords work better for them. As for your second point, you're still confusing the villains. Go back to post #72 regarding the noise that switching power supplies throw back into the AC. The nearby problem is your CD/DVD player that generates a strong RF field which may be amplified downstream.

jimHJJ(...perhaps some clarification might be in order...)

E-Stat

04-17-2007, 09:11 AM

...perhaps some clarification might be in order...)
Agreed. You mentioned three concepts. My comments discuss the first two:

Once we get beyond AC line-borne artifacts and airborne RFI...
1. Switching power supplies are among the sources that send noise into the AC.
2. CD/DVD players generate local RFI fields.

In your third "...by some sort of floating intra-system "feedback" that these power cords passively drain off?", what is the source of the feedback?

rw

Resident Loser

04-17-2007, 09:58 AM

Agreed. You mentioned three concepts. My comments discuss the first two:

1. Switching power supplies are among the sources that send noise into the AC.
2. CD/DVD players generate local RFI fields.

In your third "...by some sort of floating intra-system "feedback" that these power cords passively drain off?", what is the source of the feedback?

rw

...you tell me, I ended the not-quite rhetorical statement with a question mark? What is the source?

If we condition the mains and shield from the airborne, how does an aftermarket cord guard against AC echo, slapback, whatever contaminants that another components' power supply might transmit to the common post-conditioned AC?

If digital players generate fields that don't drop off precipitously, how do these same cords handle that hash?

BTW, preliminary tests indicate that an unshielded power cords' 60Hz field is <2in., a CPUs field extends for around four inches and that after that, a CRTs forward field, raster perhaps, (at a distance of 24" or so) becomes evident, having been masked by that of the CPU...true, it's not audio but it demonstrates the proximity effect involved.

jimHJJ(...just some observations...)

E-Stat

04-17-2007, 10:22 AM

If we condition the mains and shield from the airborne, how does an aftermarket cord guard against AC echo, slapback, whatever contaminants that another components' power supply might transmit to the common post-conditioned AC?
Please refer to the specific comments that led you to this question. "Post conditioned AC?" Huh?

If digital players generate fields that don't drop off precipitously, how do these same cords handle that hash?
Shielding.

BTW, preliminary tests indicate that an unshielded power cords' 60Hz field is <2in., a CPUs field extends for around four inches and that after that, a CRTs forward field, raster perhaps, (at a distance of 24" or so) becomes evident, having been masked by that of the CPU...true, it's not audio but it demonstrates the proximity effect involved.
More importantly, what is the radiation distance for the primary villain - the CDP?

rw

Resident Loser

04-18-2007, 07:04 AM

(1)..."Post conditioned AC?" Huh?

(2)Shielding.

(3)More importantly, what is the radiation distance for the primary villain - the CDP?

rw

(1) If you use a line conditioner, I assume you will connect all audio gear to the post conditioned AC outlets...this is a common connect point...if any noise from the power supplies of the connected components is fed back through a cord (and not inductive in nature) towards this common AC source, how would a specialized, aftermarket power cord eliminate it, after all it's now line-borne both coming and going?.

(2) A relatively inexpensive shielded cord should be sufficient in this respect...

(3) Testing a CDP in my PCs CPU: Nothing from the sides encased in metal...at the plastic faceplate: drawer/deck motor noise evident to about 3in., transport motor to about 1 1/2 in. using an inductve probe, Spool-up of the motor sounded like a Pink Floyd cut...

jimHJJ(...Home system to follow...)

E-Stat

04-18-2007, 08:53 AM

(1) If you use a line conditioner, I assume you will connect all audio gear to the post conditioned AC outlets...this is a common connect point...if any noise from the power supplies of the connected components is fed back through a cord (and not inductive in nature) towards this common AC source, how would a specialized, aftermarket power cord eliminate it, after all it's now line-borne both coming and going?.
RL, this topic should not be as difficult to grasp as you seem to make it. At the expense of repeating myself, aftermarket AC cords are conditioners. I don't know of anyone who has suggested that one fit an aftermarket cord downstream of a conditioner. As I stated back in post 70 odd, line conditioners limit current for high powered amplifiers. That is why I DO NOT use them with either my HT receiver nor my two power amps.

(2) A relatively inexpensive shielded cord should be sufficient in this respect...
That speculation is not supported by my experience. I use five different sets of aftermarket cords, two of which are DIY. One set uses Belden 19364 using a single Beldfoil shield. It is NOT as good a cord as any of the others. I wish it were.

(3) Testing a CDP in my PCs CPU
What, by the way, are you measuring?

rw

O'Shag

06-30-2007, 02:24 AM

...replacing the power cord on my Waring Professional blender will make superior margaritas...less Residual Floobydust Interference...

jimHJJ(...yep...)

Hilarious! And perfectly sensible anicdote.

I started out wanting to belief the argument that interconnects and speaker cables all sound the same was true. Who wouldn't? No one wants to spend extra money on cables that are largely hidden from view anyway. But I have long since dispelled this notion, since I started hearing big differences in both interconnects and speaker cables sereral years ago.

But powercords are another matter. They do not carry the audio signal. they conduct the electricity to power components. Although a benefit may be observed from reducing RFI EMI interference or maximizing the flow of electricity from the wall socket, the perceived improvement will be minimal at best. Do I think its work it to spend perhaps $200 bucks on a powercord that will bring a minimal benefit? - yes, if it is well made. But the notion of spending more than $500 or even $1000 seems ridiculous. No wonder 'normal' people regard audiophiles as audiophools. The thing is that the people selling the powercords are not always charlatans. They believe what they are saying. There as deluded as a lot of audiosheep out there.

Also it would seem to me that component manufacturers would be quite pissed off by this blatant hucksterism that directly robs them of sales. Clearly most of us that spend large on powercords are taking from a budget for components. And components are certainly much more expensive to manufacture. They clearly must feel that the powercord vendors are getting a free ride on their coat tails, and taking business from them too. Mind you, if I were a powercord vendor, and people would buy my powercords at massive prices, I'd perpetuate the myth also.

I have the RX-Z9 receiver from Yamaha. The manual clearly states that they do not recommend using any other aftermarket powercord as there will be no benefit. This is Yamaha's top receiver too and an excellent porduct at that. Bravo Yamaha for honesty.

E-Stat

06-30-2007, 07:08 AM

Although a benefit may be observed from reducing RFI EMI interference or maximizing the flow of electricity from the wall socket, the perceived improvement will be minimal at best.
And yet you have two Tice conditioners. Aren't those somewhere between $1600 and $2000 each? Have you tried any aftermarket cords with your ARC gear or MF DAC? I used to have an SP-6C and VT-100 myself. Still use an SP-9 MKIII.

Also it would seem to me that component manufacturers would be quite pissed off by this blatant hucksterism that directly robs them of sales.
With which manufacturers have you spoken or read their feelings about this (other than Yamaha)? That is not what Luke Manley of VTL tells me. In fact, he says they deliberately supply an inexpensive, yet rated-for-current cord because most of his customers use aftermarket cords. That is not what Carl Marchisotto of Nola has told Harry Pearson. He now uses Nordost cabling in his system. That is not what Jud Barber of Joule Electra has told me. He favors the Elrod cables. That is not what Ole Lund Christensen (formerly) of GamuT thinks. They supply an AC cord only upon request for the same reason as Luke. That is not what John Curl of Parasound (has also designed for Mark Levinson, Vendetta, CTC) thinks. That is not what Charles Hansen of Ayre (formerly with Avalon) thinks. He likes the Cardas cord. Those are only the guys with whom I'm spoken or specifically read of their feeling on the matter. I suspect that If you were to speak with Bill Johnson or any number of other gifted designers, they would likewise concur. While Nelson Pass is neutral on the topic, he has as of late rethought the value of keeping the power source absolutely clean via these improvements to his X.5 series of Pass Laboratory amps:

"Changes to these models include improvements to power transformers, paralleled high speed / soft recovery rectifiers, improved AC EMI filters, more paralleled power supply capacitors, increased supply RC filtering..."

Clearly most of us that spend large on powercords are taking from a budget for components.
Do you think I shortchanged some aspect of my system having purchased the Harmonic Technology cords?

rw

Feanor

06-30-2007, 08:14 AM

...
With which manufacturers have you spoken or read their feelings about this (other than Yamaha)? That is not what Luke Manley of VTL tells me. In fact, he says they deliberately supply an inexpensive, yet rated-for-current cord because most of his customers use aftermarket cords. That is not what Carl Marchisotto of Nola has told Harry Pearson. He now uses Nordost cabling in his system. That is not what Jud Barber of Joule Electra has told me. He favors the Elrod cables. That is not what Ole Lund Christensen (formerly) of GamuT thinks. They supply an AC cord only upon request for the same reason as Luke. That is not what John Curl of Parasound (has also designed for Mark Levinson, Vendetta, CTC) thinks. That is not what Charles Hansen of Ayre (formerly with Avalon) thinks. He likes the Cardas cord. Those are only the guys with whom I'm spoken or specifically read of their feeling on the matter. I suspect that If you were to speak with Bill Johnson or any number of other gifted designers, they would likewise concur. While Nelson Pass is neutral on the topic, he has as of late rethought the value of keeping the power source absolutely clean via these improvements to his X.5 series of Pass Laboratory amps:

"Changes to these models include improvements to power transformers, paralleled high speed / soft recovery rectifiers, improved AC EMI filters, more paralleled power supply capacitors, increased supply RC filtering..."
...
rw

E-Stat,

Has it occured to you that these gents are all in the same racket and don't want to stick out by refuting each other, much less the contradicting the lucrative audiophile fancy that >$500 PCs make a day-and-night difference?

Personally I have been using shielded PC cables for key components for a while, granted I've stuck to $50 PS Audio PowerPunch and $25 DIY Belden/Marinco cables. Also, I've used a Tripp Lite IS1000 isolation transformer, a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet, and currently a Belkin PureAV PF60. None of these have produced any noticable difference in sound. (Well, with the possible exception that I think I might hear an extremely minute improvement using the Belden/Marinco with my DAC, but that could be my imagination as likely than not.)

It is certainly possible that people like yourself who have top-end equipment might notice significant differences, but I don't think it's good advice for people with entry to mid-level systems to spend a lot on PC cables. Apart from special situations, most people will be better off improving the components themselves.

E-Stat

06-30-2007, 08:55 AM

Has it occured to you that these gents are all in the same racket and don't want to stick out by refuting each other, much less the contradicting the lucrative audiophile fancy that >$500 PCs make a day-and-night difference?
Considered and rejected once I got to know a number of these designers. The folks I've met are genuine music enthusiasts. I'll leave the conspiracy theories to others.

None of these have produced any noticable difference in sound. (Well, with the possible exception that I think I might hear an extremely minute improvement using the Belden/Marinco with my DAC, but that could be my imagination as likely than not.)
Ok.

It is certainly possible that people like yourself who have top-end equipment might notice significant differences, but I don't think it's good advice for people with entry to mid-level systems to spend a lot on PC cables.
First of all, I've never said that the differences were significant nor do I recommend that folks spend half their budget on either high end AC cords or the expensive conditioners that O'Shag uses either. The benefits are system and environment specific. I have two wireless access points, four computers, three digital cable boxes and six CD/DVD players - all of which either radiate RFI or spew digital hash back into the AC line. I do, however, have a couple of sub $100 DIY cords that I believe are worth merit in more modest systems. Like my vintage double New Advent based one. Where I also use a $100 Monster HTS-1000 conditioner for front end components.

As you are probably aware there are guys here (Mash, Skeptic/Soundmind, Woodman, FL Zapped come to mind) who say there cannot be any possible benefits, regardless of the system. Naturally, all of them have zero experience with the gear I've referenced - certainly not limited to my own. I never did get a response from Woodman after I asked him as to his specific experience beyond TV repair. He tried his best to "imagine" what I was talking about.

Woodman on AC (http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=68518&postcount=21)

Over the years, more than one poster here has also suggested that I invest in room treatments instead of tweaky cords. Naturally, those guys don't realize (or bother to check gallery) that I already use various treatments in my system and have done so since I was a teenager. I use a dozen bass traps, damping panels, ficus trees, etc. for that very reason. I spent a day using a Radio Shack SPL meter on a tripod using a Stereophile Test CD to get the bass response remarkably flat in the bottom four octaves. I have always gotten that concept and invested in that side of the system first. While the audible benefits from lowering the noise floor using power conditioning strategies are subtle, I have nevertheless found them to be there.

rw

Feanor

06-30-2007, 10:20 AM

Considered and rejected once I got to know a number of these designers. The folks I've met are genuine music enthusiasts. I'll leave the conspiracy theories to others.
...
rw

I apologize if I seem to be questioning the sincerity of those folks or accusing them of being less than honest. I'm sure they're thoroughly ingenuous. But the truth is, though, that human beings can believe whatever they want to believe, and biases and self-interest generally affect what they want to believe. Amongst audiophiles, self-delusion is common, (though it's not unique to audiophiles).

E-Stat

06-30-2007, 10:39 AM

But the truth is, though, that human beings can believe whatever they want to believe, and biases and self-interest generally affect what they want to believe.
Please explain to me the "self-interest" motivation for audio designers acknowledging that the use of products sold by companies completely unrelated to their own enhances theirs? How do they directly benefit from recommending complementary components? Surely not monetarily. Do you think audiophiles prefer the notion of having to buy something else to optimize the use of the primary component? That makes absolutely no sense to me. I have never followed this speculative line of thinking.

rw

Feanor

06-30-2007, 12:29 PM

Please explain to me the "self-interest" motivation for audio designers acknowledging that the use of products sold by companies completely unrelated to their own enhances theirs? How do they directly benefit from recommending complementary components? Surely not monetarily. Do you think audiophiles prefer the notion of having to buy something else to optimize the use of the primary component? That makes absolutely no sense to me. I have never followed this speculative line of thinking.

rw

No, I'm not accusing any of them of venality. That people subscribe to the popular myths for the reason that they do wish to seem out of step or "policitally incorrect. Yet they most often do this unconsciously.

The myth I'm talking about is the audiophile myth that (a) all factors make a difference, and (b) that all differences are significant.

O'Shag

06-30-2007, 09:00 PM

E-Stat,

Each to his own, and I'm genuinely not against others spending their money however they wish. But people who don't have a balanced perspective are generally not the best source of an un-biased opinion. I haven't heard all powercords so can't make a valued judgement overall that others could rely on. But I do know this; the value offered is low for the aftermarket powercords I've heard in friends systems.

I do have three aftermarket powercords myself, all from monster cable. I paid over $100 each for them I believe. They are extremely well constructed and do look rather attractive in a macho sort of way, but for the life of me I can't here a difference between these and a $4.95 PC cord from Frys electronics.

With all due respect, I must submit that the 'conspiracy theory' remark is a cop-out. Are you insinuating that everyone offering resistance to the idea (that very expensive after market powercords are absolutely neccessary for premium performance) are 'loonies' endorsing conspiracy theories? Incidently, my powerconditioners are the Tice Powerblock/titan; one pair for each channel. Power conditioners offer more value I believe. I just can't figure out how a power cord can cost more than the Shunyata Hydra for example. What a topsy turvy world we live in...

By the way, Hi Bill.

O'Shag

06-30-2007, 09:28 PM

As far as whole house power conditioning is concerned, I've though about implementing the following set up;

Solar panels on roof feed set of batteries in basement dedicated to audio system, which provide unninterrupted power for about two days, but are continuously recharging. The batteries feed dedicated circuits in the listening room. I've read about a battery system in a periodical a while back. I think one was demonstrated at CES or some audio show in Europe. I don;t know how feasible the solar-powered source would be i.e. if enough electricity would be generated to make it practical. but I intend to research this. As far as expensive powercords being neccessary, I wouldn;t think so. All well-designed components are configured to reject EMI/RFI, and if the source power is clean than I would think it would be overkill to spend more on expensive powercords.

E-Stat, which would you choose; a) JPS Labs Illuminata (set of two) or the Mark Levinson No. 326s or No. 32 reference preamps, both of which regenerate their own AC and a very pure power sinwave?

E-Stat

07-02-2007, 06:49 AM

With all due respect, I must submit that the 'conspiracy theory' remark is a cop-out. Are you insinuating that everyone offering resistance to the idea (that very expensive after market powercords are absolutely neccessary for premium performance) are 'loonies' endorsing conspiracy theories?
Not at all. I simply question those who use that specific excuse as the basis for their speculation. I find direct exposure far more valuable.

Incidently, my powerconditioners are the Tice Powerblock/titan; one pair for each channel. Power conditioners offer more value I believe.
I use conditioners as well. Just not for power amps where most limit current delivery and thus dynamics and bass impact (there are a few notable exceptions). It is here I find aftermarket cords most valuable. Similarly, shielded cords minimize transmission via radiated RFI. So you condition the line and get rid of house wiring borne nasties for your preamp only to pick up garbage from a nearby DAC.

I just can't figure out how a power cord can cost more than the Shunyata Hydra for example.
Well, mine certainly don't unless you get a really long one! And it uses six nines silver for the hot and ground wires.

By the way, Hi Bill.
Nice to meet you!

rw

E-Stat

07-02-2007, 06:52 AM

Yet they most often do this unconsciously.
Sorry, I just don't find any use for speculative gossip.

rw

E-Stat

07-02-2007, 07:25 AM

All well-designed components are configured to reject EMI/RFI, and if the source power is clean than I would think it would be overkill to spend more on expensive powercords.
Configured, yes. Completely successful? I've yet to hear a high quality component NOT benefit from a good cord.

E-Stat, which would you choose; a) JPS Labs Illuminata (set of two) or the Mark Levinson No. 326s or No. 32 reference preamps, both of which regenerate their own AC and a very pure power sinwave?
Howzat for an apples and oranges comparison? Not to mention a financially unbalanced one. A quick perusal at Stereophile.com reports the 326s goes for $10k, the 32 goes for $14.5k while a pair of Aluminatas run $7k. Two AC cords vs. a line stage? For starters, I don't find any use for a line stage. My CDP runs through DACT attenuators and drives my amps directly. I have a phono preamp, but use it for vinyl only. Consequently, I would never run into such a choice.

What I do is weigh the relative benefit of changing or adding any component with my system. As a detail freak and listener at modest levels, my preferences are not necessarily everyone else's.

rw

Bernd

07-02-2007, 08:01 AM

.....in depth discussion about Power cords. My findings mirror E-Stats.
My biggest improvement came once I had a completely dedicated circuit wired with Kimber Cable, with it's own metering unit, for the System.
I do use Mains products from Isotek. The Titan for the amp(s) and the Nova for the front ends. No lack of dynamics over here. I also found that using Kimber Power cords in conjunction with the Kimber Mains re-wire really paid off.
Last year I did a little experiement and used my Teac Office system in the re-wired listening room and with the Kimber Power Cords. The Mains products alone were something like 10 times the cost of the Teac System. The difference was startling.
Any doubter should try to power a budget item through a dedicated mains application. It's an eye or:) ear oppener.

Peace

:16:

O'Shag

07-02-2007, 04:28 PM

Ok E-stat and Bernd, your arguments are convincing me enough that I must do some more extensive listening to some powercords myself to make a more informed judgement. What I've heard in my friends' systems does not have me convinced, but perhaps I can get a lend to try in my own system. My Audio Reseach Classic 120 & 150 monoblocks have large-ish powercords built on so there's nothing I can do there. The two Levinson No. 27 monoaural amps I've just aquired to run as monoblocks in bridged mode do allow for aftermarket powercords. I'm willing to give some reasonably priced powercords a go if I'm satisfied there is a noticable difference, so your suggestions as to what constitutes a reasonably priced/ high performance powercord would be welcome.

Incidentally e-stat; I think the comparison I offered was valid. The Mark Levinson No 32 reference can be had on the used market for $8,500- $9,000, and the illuminata runs 7k for two cords, but at what length? The length for my purposes and for many others I'd imagine, is a vital factor. Even now I struggle to get all my components hooked up without the use of extension cables for a few devices, and this despite the fact that I have two sets of Tice Powerblock/ Titans; one for each channel. For a powercord to be really useful, it would have to be at least eight feet preferrably longer. Otherwise one is confined to a very limited setup.

Bernd, I'm originally from Stockport in Cheshire, but have been in the US since the early eighties. EEE-Bay-guum.

E-Stat

07-03-2007, 06:49 AM

...but perhaps I can get a lend to try in my own system.
That is clearly the best way. Similarly, my local dealer has allowed me 30 day full money back in home trials to facilitate my decisions. That's what I did with the three JPS Labs cords I have. Don't have Aluminatas!

My Audio Reseach Classic 120 & 150 monoblocks have large-ish powercords built on so there's nothing I can do there.
That's a shame since they would likely benefit. On the other hand, your Titans may be doing a thorough job there. Presumably, these large monoblocks are not situated close to a transport or DAC.

I'm willing to give some reasonably priced powercords a go if I'm satisfied there is a noticable difference, so your suggestions as to what constitutes a reasonably priced/ high performance powercord would be welcome.
If you are able to audition better, I would start there to get a feel for what a very good cord can do. The ones in my experience that qualify (but not limited to) are the Kimber Palladians, Elrod EPS-3, Harmonic Tech Magic, and the Nordost Valhalla. These retail in the $1000-$2500 range. If you are an electronics hobbyist, you can assemble one for under $100 that works well with digital sources. I made one using double shielded Belden 83803. If not, Zebra cables has pre-assembled an 83803 based cord using which goes for $95 for an eight foot run.

Incidentally e-stat; I think the comparison I offered was valid. The Mark Levinson No 32 reference can be had on the used market for $8,500- $9,000, and the illuminata runs 7k for two cords, but at what length?
Why not likewise consider buying the cables used as well? Cables depreciate rather quickly and for the most part, don't wear out. I noticed a Kimber Palladian PK-10 (the larger 10 gauge model) on Agon for $700.

To recap my position, the better aftermarket cords can add a degree of resolution to good systems. I find it to be icing on the cake. Is the benefit worth the investment? Only you can determine that based on all the other aspects of your system. Since you already have some high quality conditioning in place, you may not find as much benefit as others. I'm a speaker guy and put most of my time and energy in finding the best speaker for my set of preferences and providing them a nicely treated room in order for them to work their best.

I moved about a year ago which involved a system tradeoff. The new house is older and the current room does not have dedicated lines. I'm considering doing as Bernd has and getting two or three clean lines and having them wired with something other than Romex. On the other hand, the new room is acoustically far better and has allowed me to get the bottom four octaves remarkably flat. I am very much enjoying that aspect. The only thing standing between me and getting the ideal power source to the system is a bit of money. :)

rw

Feanor

07-03-2007, 07:55 AM

...

To recap my position, the better aftermarket cords can add a degree of resolution to good systems. I find it to be icing on the cake. Is the benefit worth the investment? Only you can determine that based on all the other aspects of your system. Since you already have some high quality conditioning in place, you may not find as much benefit as others. I'm a speaker guy and put most of my time and energy in finding the best speaker for my set of preferences and providing them a nicely treated room in order for them to work their best.
...

rw

E-Stat,

I commend you on the balance and reasonableness of your statement above. Perhaps you exceeded by my expectation in stating, "I find it to be icing on the cake." Too few hardcore audiophiles are willing to make that concession about any factor.

Although I personally doubt that I have ever heard improvemnt from a power cord, I fairly have to conceed that my equipment, ears, and the power cords I've tried, really can't be called high-quality relative to the equipment that you have experienced. With regard to my ears, I cannot hear a signal at 12kHz or higher; also, I suffer from tinnitus, the effect of which is to give me a permanently high noise to signal ratio. (Both of these things are likely attributed to hearing damage in my late teens and early twenties -- not from listening to music, BTW.) So it is likely that other people may hear sound improvements that I cannot.

In any case I stick with advising people with entry- to mid-level systems not to spend a lot on PCs or power conditioning barring special environmental problems. The money will be much better spend on improving the major components themselves.

E-Stat

07-03-2007, 08:42 AM

I commend you on the balance and reasonableness of your statement above. Perhaps you exceeded by my expectation in stating, "I find it to be icing on the cake." Too few hardcore audiophiles are willing to make that concession about any factor.
Thank you. I've been in this hobby for 35+ years and have gotten over the hype. :)

Although I personally doubt that I have ever heard improvemnt from a power cord, I fairly have to conceed that my equipment, ears, and the power cords I've tried, really can't be called high-quality relative to the equipment that you have experienced. With regard to my ears, I cannot hear a signal at 12kHz or higher...
Not only are the system components variables here, so is the environment. From a home device generated noise standpoint, I have a pretty challenging case with all the computer and digital cable related stuff. Resident Loser, on the other hand, has a cleaner power environment with minimalist approach to such gadgets.

To tell you the truth, you may need to be "taught" what to hear for. While that comment may set off alarms in the "anti-audiophile-you're-just-hearing-things" camp, that was the case for me. I was first exposed to world class systems when I was eighteen. With zero previous exposure to that caliber gear and inexperience with live unamplified music, I was not really perceiving all that I heard - stuff just sounded good. Through years of participating in informal listening panels with three audio reviewers and spending time with fellow employees at the audio store where I worked while in college, I gained insight into what a really special system could do. At first, I felt pretty stupid when my mentors would comment as to some aspect of a recording and I really had no idea what they were referring to. It took me decades to fully understand some of what those guys were telling me.

In any case I stick with advising people with entry- to mid-level systems not to spend a lot on PCs or power conditioning barring special environmental problems.
Agreed.

rw

Feanor

07-03-2007, 10:42 AM

...
To tell you the truth, you may need to be "taught" what to hear for. While that comment may set off alarms in the "anti-audiophile-you're-just-hearing-things" camp, that was the case for me. I was first exposed to world class systems when I was eighteen.
...
rw

I don't match you in depth of experience -- but I do in years of experience. :biggrin5:

I agree that inexperienced listeners need to learn -- be taught -- what to listen for. I remember many, many years ago hearing a pair of JBL Lancer 77's and thinking they were fabulous; a few months later I heard them side-by-side with AR 3a's and realized they weren't and why. That was a significant learning experience for me, amongst others.

I grant myself that I know what to listen for in general, however it comes back to the other factor: motivation. If I listen to a new component for a few hours, maybe switching back to the previous once or twice, and I am not clear that there is difference or which I prefer, I just loose interest in the comparison.

O'Shag

07-05-2007, 10:38 AM

E-Stat and Feanor. You both have a lot of years of experience. A lot more than me I will admit.

Thanks for the info regarding the different powercords. I'll set about dedicated listening sessions to review the possible benefits powercords might bring. as I've said before I've not heard anything significant, but haven't listened specifically to evaluate a selection of powercords. To tell the truth, I'm hoping not to hear significant differences because I'm the sort of chap that will go on a mission to upgrade, and more often than not my degree of enthusiasm is not commensurate with the level of disposable income I can invest.

Despite the limits of of my budget with regard to building a state-of-the-art system , I am always open to what can be, though it may seem ludicrous on the face of it. I learnt this with cables. The arguments against cables sounding radically different seems plausible especially when supported by scientific papers and what-not. But then when I experienced the difference and how it can genuinely transform a system, I realized there's a lot more depth to these things than first realized.

By the way Feanor, a friend of mine living nearby also has Tinnitus, and despite this he has the dicerning ear to have put together a very good-sounding audio system.