Who uses ONLY Receiver with no amp/preamp? Is good sound possible?

[stevef22]

Just wondering who in this forum uses only a receiver to power speakers? I just got 2 Huge Cerwin Vega VS 12 speakers and notice the 2ch music sounds ok but Its missing clarity at higher volumes. The music seems to "blend" together and needs more punch.

Is it possible to have good audio with just a receiver? I also like to watch DVDs in 5.1. Should I just get a nice receiver or purchase a dedicated amp? Is a preamp necessary as well?

Currently I just have a
http://enigmawebdesign.com/epo4.png
- Yamaha HTR-5140 Receiver
- Yamaha self powered subwoofer
- Cerwin Vega VS12 series floor speakers
- Eposome Center speaker
- 2 Cerwin Vega rear speakers

[recoveryone]

Kind of hard to help without knowing the specs of what you do have, along with what you are looking for.

[stevef22]

Here is the specs from the manual for my Yamaha HTR-5140
http://enigmawebdesign.com/yam.png

Full Manual .pdf here http://www.usersmanualguide.com/yamaha_audio/av_receivers/htr-5140 The main Cerwin Vega say Velocity Sensitive VS-12 on the back, but I believe they are actually VS-120s. They look just like the pic here. Also specs.
http://www.cerwinvega.com/products/homeaudiovideo/vsseries/vs120.html
http://www.cerwinvega.com/products/images/homeaudio/vs-120b.gif
Reviews: http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/cerwin-vega/PRD_120899_1594crx.aspx

I just don't think that 60 Watts at .04 THD is enough for these speakers. But I am not sure if any receiver with amping capability will be as cost efficient as a stand alone power amp. Also I still don't know if I need a preamp or if my receiver is good enough for a pre amp. I don't even think it has pre-amp outputs.

PS, with your knowledge, What amps do most people pair up with Cerwin Vega floor speakers? I like to listen to music like Enigma with large booms and atmospheric quality.

[Robert-The-Rambler]

I can't stop recommending the Behringer EP2500. A large floorstander would just be a match made in heaven for 450 watts of fury. At $300 it greatly enhances sound quality over simple receiver amps. If you have a pre-out for the mains you are set.

[likeitloud]

Welcome to AR, If your HTR-5140 has a pre amp, add the amp to power the main
speakers. I notice it's set up for surround, so that will "free" up the receiver to power
your surrounds and center. Even an amp in the 100wpc range will make a huge
difference, especially at high volume. Until then, watch clipping issues when cranking
that receiver. Good luck

[royphil345]

Yeah... To make Cerwin Vegas really sing at higher volumes, you will definitely need a little more juice. With enough power, you may not impress many audiophiles with the clarity, but you will have fun... LOL

A HT receiver with preamp outs and external amp for the 2 main channels is a great way to go for a decent (and loud) system on a budget. Unfortunately, the lower models of Yamaha receivers usually don't have preamp outputs when most other brands do. One reason I went with Harman Kardon instead. Sorry... As far as two-channel amps... I'd try to look for at least a used Adcom, Acurus, Arcam, NAD, Parasound, Rotel, etc... amp with around 200 WPC or so.... I like the Carver A-500X and A-760X. Most of the other Carver models seem to be either lacking in sound quality or old enough to need restoration to insure optimal performance. If you get something decent, you'll probably use it a long, long time no matter what else you upgrade. The Behringer or one of the more powerful AudioSource amps might be something to consider on a tight budget.

Even though they have 12" drivers, I've noticed Cerwin Vegas seem to be designed more for efficiency than bass extension. The 15" models go pretty low, the 12" models would still sound better with a nice sub IMHO. A sub would also fill out the sound from your smaller surround speakers and make home theater more "enveloping". CV makes subs to match all their speaker lines at reasonable prices.

[Wireworm5]

IMO if you have main pre-outs you should get a dedicated power amp for the VS12's. Your receiver is your pre-amp so you don't need another one for this. In my experience when you drive many speakers with a av/receiver it puts a lot of strain on the power. All of the speakers are working less than optimal and you may not realize this 'til after you lighten the load on your receiver. And driving those VS12's along with the other will definitely strain the receiver

[kexodusc]

Hold a second here guys! Why's everyone recommending more power and a new amp for this guy? I like better amps when they're needed, but in this case, I think we're creating expecation that won't be met..

There's two things wrong with suggesting a new amp for Mr. Stevef22:

1) Better speakers are going to make a much, much bigger improvement in sound quality, and such an upgrade is only going to cost as much as an upgrade to a better amp/pre-amp or receiver anyway. A newer receiver with more power here really isn't going to do much for sound quality because:

2) These are Cerwin freakin' Vegas. Did anyone look at the specs for them?
Here's one that should jump out - 97 dB - 1w/1m!!!

Let's compare these to the standard 90-91 dB efficiency most speakers today have.
The pic has these set up in a living room I'm guessing (entertainment centrer), so let's assume measurements of about 20 x 20 (large room), listener is 3 meters (10 ft) from the speakers, with 2 speakers in a room, typical placement.

How loud do you listen, Stevef22? This is critical to know...

A set of 91 dB speakers are going to approach Rock concert volumes at 100 dB with 15 watts per channel. We're gonna hear compression, but they'll get there. Even a cheap crappy Sony receiver can do this...I know first hand because I drove the snot out of my old Wharfedales with cheap Technics, H/K, and Sony receivers for years. A 60 watt Yammie shouldn't have too much trouble.

That's not bad...Even a 60 watt receiver leaves about 9 dB dynamic headroom for musical peaks. For rock, blues, metal, etc, this is probably adequate 99% of the time. It'll get loud, but you're entering clip territory now at these volumes. Distortion is bad. I'm going to say right now that in a most living room setups, this combo isn't too bad and is louder than most of us will need - you'll lose some sound quality as you increase the volume for sure. This receiver isn't going to handle those speakers like a quality 60 watt amp would, but it'll drive them adequately. Of course, if the volume is in the 80-90 dB range as I suspect, the sound quality should be higher because the amp and speakers are under much less stress.

Let's look at the CV's now at 97 dB under the same conditions.
100 dB is accomplished at a mere 4 watts! This isn't putting any strain on the PSU or receiver at all - he's got 12-15 dB headroom, which is more than adequate for all but the most demanding piece of classical music (and 15 dB ain't gonna happen much), and that's if the reference level is at 100 dB. At 15 watts, you're pushing the volume up to over 106 dB! If that's your reference volume in your living room you will permanently damage your hearing listening to a CD of 45 minutes or longer. It's safe to say this isn't "typical" listening practices for anyone. Not for very long at least :D

Here's a classic case where more power isn't likely to be very beneficial for the application. Those speakers just don't need it unless you're power a gymnasium with them. How big is your room?

The only other argument for an amp is for "sound quality". Normally, I'd agree, you'll get better bass control, less distorition (at higher volumes) and cleaner sound throughout than provided by the amps in an entry level receiver. But that assumes your basic modern speaker. Let me say from experience, even a $10,000 Krell amp isn't going to make Cerwin Vegas sound like anything but Cerwin Vegas. I like CV, they're fun speakers. But they're designed with a purpose in mind, and super refined sound quality just ain't it. CV's are all about bringing loud, distorted AC-DC rawk to your home. Great for getting charged with disturbing the peace, poor for hearing Wes Montgomery slide his fingers across the strings of his guitar...The clarity you desire isn't going to happen (much) by purchasing a better amp. The punch in bass is likely going to better accomplished by better speaker placement, or augmentation with a subwoofer.

Trust me on this. Those same Sony, H/K, and Technics receivers also powered my CV's in college. I upgraded the stereo receiver everytime looking for better sound (well, the jump from the Technics was necessary after it melted), eventually even using my father's NAD integrated and a 100 watt NAD power amp. I knew a lot less back then...you learn the hard way. Got a bit louder, didn't sound better...not really. The difference on the Wharfedales, much more noticeable.

If you want to improve your current setup, in my honest opinion, the biggest difference in sound is going to come from upgrading the speakers. You'll be trading house shaking volume for better sound quality. After that, look at adding an amp to get back to the loudness you desire. Who knows, you might find you're okay with a 60-watt receiver.

If you want more bass in the meantime, a more capable subwoofer (unfortunately subs have never been Yamaha's strong point) might be worth looking into.

Nothing wrong with CV's, by the way, I really miss mine sometimes. I'd just hate to see someone throw money at a solution that likely isn't going to achieve the desired goals. Spend your money wisely...

[Luvin Da Blues]

I agree kexodusc

I had a pair of Wharfedale Mach 7's back in the day...high efficiency and a great Rock and Roll speaker made a huge difference to my system powered by a pioneer SA8100 Int Amp

[GMichael]

Kex to the rescue!

Again.

[markw]

1) The Yamaha subs most likely can't keep up witt he mains

2) Those are incredibly efficient main speakers. How loud do you listen? Yeah, you can crank it but the sub is gonna run out of steam long before the speakers.

3) While those speakers may be "loud", they really don't go as "low" as you would think. If you try to "force" them to do subsionic by turning it up, you ARE gonna run out of power. ...and don't expect the yammie sub to perform miracles.

4) Sometimes, that "congested" sound you are complaining of comes from inside the ear itself.

5) You CAN play too loudly for a room and that can screw things up. All that SPL has to go somewhere, and it's reflected all around and can cancel itself out.

6) You simply may not like the sound of the speakers.

7) Given the above possibilities, your expectations may be unrealistic.

Here's a little primer on power and how you hear it.

1) A gain 3 decibles is barely noticable.

2) To realize a 3 decible increase in preceived loudness during peaks you need 2x the power. IOW, if you're pushing 60 watts, you need 120 to meet that goal.

3) A gain of 10 decibles results in an apparant doubling of perceived loudness.

4) To realize a 10 decible increase in preceived loudness during peaks, you need 10x the power. IOW, if you're pushing 60 watts, you need 600 to meet that goal.

Where do you want to go from here?

[L.J.]

Well said Kex and Mark!

I'm running some CV's (LS-12) in my garage with an old piece of crap panny recv. It's pushing out 70wpc and I can barely turn the volume up 30% without becoming waaay too loud. These speakers are very sensitive.

Sounds like crap, but who cares when you're pumping iron. :prrr:

[westcott]

Ditto Kex.

Speakers are the heart of the system and throwing all kinds of money on components to improve the sound is working backwards.

Spend every available dollar on speakers and some that is not available, and go from there.


To answer your original question directly, yes you can get a good receiver to drive a speaker with plenty of power, if the speaker is efficient and sensitive enough.

It usually aint goin to happen with most direct radiating speakers and that is why horn loaded speakers dominated in the early days. Amps were weak and expensive.

If this is your approach, then I suggest a speaker that is sensitive\efficient. If you do a search, you can find a free calculator to tell you how much power you need for the speaker you consider. To reach reference levels (like those in some movie theaters), you have to hit 117dB!!

Just not a lot of speaker designs that will do that with 100 watts or less! OR EVEN 1000 watts!

[royphil345]

Can't agree with you guys on this one. If you have Cerwin Vegas, you might as well have enough amplifier to drive them properly and "aggressively". That's what they're built for guys...

All theoretical science aside... I've never been able to make any set of speakers play loudly and with the proper authority using a 60 WPC HT receiver. Sound turns to mush pretty quickly, which sounds exactly like what this guy's complaining about. If you think that's all there is... you should try an external amp. Expect much clearer, tighter, more detailed, more powerful sound with better bass weight.... and louder... Sounded to me like exactly what this guy was looking for.

I'm not too sure what he has, but a couple of the new CV lines sound pretty good... with the proper amplification...

[stevef22]

Thanks for the training in audio 101! Headroom, Ohms, Dbs, etc etc. Im starting to understand that just because I have large bada** old school speakers doesn't mean good sound even when hooked up to amps galore.

So even though these VS-120s are labeled ( Velocity Sensitive loudspeakers has very fast "transient response".) That doesn't mean these Cerwin Vegas are as accurate and responsive as other top brands?

I like to listen to movies loud and clear. Much like a movie theater with accurate bass, Yes my small powered sub doesn't even come close. I need to invest in a nice sub as well. I was hoping that the VS120s would fill in the lower end gap. I guess not.

Thanks Kex, Mark and everyone else for clearing this up for me. Too bad I just dropped my last bills on these darn Cerwin Vegas! I need to go high class. (Even though they are mint condition CV VS-120s)

[basite]

have you got a real stereo amp there? something not surround... preferably with a little more current than the yamaha

hook that up to the cerwin vegas, see what happens, and don't use your sub with the stereo amp.

if it's sounds really good now, and your problem is solved, it's the receiver, and you might need a power amp, or a more powerful amp.
if it's not solved, there could still be several other things:
what speaker cables are u using? (thickness, I suggest you to at least use 16 gauge...).
and is there a spot in your room where you have a tremendous amount of bass? if so, you might wanna look at acoustic panels, or something else that stops reflections.
if neither of those is the case. you'll need a sub, a big one...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[kexodusc]

. Too bad I just dropped my last bills on these darn Cerwin Vegas! I need to go high class. (Even though they are mint condition CV VS-120s)

Don't say that! Those CV's will put a lot of speakers to shame when you crank them up at your next pool party. They do what they were designed to do! It's not like they sound bad, just have to accept what they're best at.

[kexodusc]

All theoretical science aside... I've never been able to make any set of speakers play loudly and with the proper authority using a 60 WPC HT receiver.
That's most likely because your speakers require 4 times the power or more to play as loud as these CV's. There's that theory coming back again. Think maybe it's worth learning? Nah...Best to surrender to the marketing machine that tells you to join the horsepower race and get as many watts or as much "current" as you can.

Sensitivity is every bit as important as power. His 60 watt Yamaha receiver gets as much done with the CV's as a 240 watt amp does with today's 90 dB 1w/1m Paradigm/PSB/Athena models....At 5 watts, there's little in the way of "control" or anything like that, certainly nothing close to a night-and-day difference.
Too much power becomes unused.

Ever wonder why some of the most exotic, respected speakers ever made are recommended for use with some of the most coveted SET amps that have 10 watts, 6, watts, even 2 watts of power per channel?



Sound turns to mush pretty quickly, which sounds exactly like what this guy's complaining about. If you think that's all there is... you should try an external amp. Expect much clearer, tighter, more detailed, more powerful sound with better bass weight.... and louder... Sounded to me like exactly what this guy was looking for.
Oh dear. The most discriminating audiophiles I know wouldn't even make that claim - maybe "expect a slightly clearer, tighter, slightly more detailed, somewhat better bass weight, and a few dB's louder"...yeah, that's more like it.

I won't even bring up excursion/distortion properties of the woofers in the speaker, and how the increased power is most likely the cause of the reduction in sound quality...oh wait, I just did...ooops.

[markw]

Those are old school, big box, floor standing speakers. I've never been totally satisfied when mid/tweeters are aimed to fire below my genitals (JBL L-55's, anyone?) and I've had some luck tilting then slightly upwards. That way some of the mid/highs get a little more chance at dispersion.

hey, it's free.

[Wireworm5]

Hold a second here guys! Why's everyone recommending more power and a new amp for this guy? I like better amps when they're needed, but in this case, I think we're creating expecation that won't be met..

There's two things wrong with suggesting a new amp for Mr. Stevef22:

1) Better speakers are going to make a much, much bigger improvement in sound quality, and such an upgrade is only going to cost as much as an upgrade to a better amp/pre-amp or receiver anyway. A newer receiver with more power here really isn't going to do much for sound quality because:

2) These are Cerwin freakin' Vegas. Did anyone look at the specs for them?
Here's one that should jump out - 97 dB - 1w/1m!!!

Let's compare these to the standard 90-91 dB efficiency most speakers today have.
The pic has these set up in a living room I'm guessing (entertainment centrer), so let's assume measurements of about 20 x 20 (large room), listener is 3 meters (10 ft) from the speakers, with 2 speakers in a room, typical placement.

How loud do you listen, Stevef22? This is critical to know...

A set of 91 dB speakers are going to approach Rock concert volumes at 100 dB with 15 watts per channel. We're gonna hear compression, but they'll get there. Even a cheap crappy Sony receiver can do this...I know first hand because I drove the snot out of my old Wharfedales with cheap Technics, H/K, and Sony receivers for years. A 60 watt Yammie shouldn't have too much trouble.

That's not bad...Even a 60 watt receiver leaves about 9 dB dynamic headroom for musical peaks. For rock, blues, metal, etc, this is probably adequate 99% of the time. It'll get loud, but you're entering clip territory now at these volumes. Distortion is bad. I'm going to say right now that in a most living room setups, this combo isn't too bad and is louder than most of us will need - you'll lose some sound quality as you increase the volume for sure. This receiver isn't going to handle those speakers like a quality 60 watt amp would, but it'll drive them adequately. Of course, if the volume is in the 80-90 dB range as I suspect, the sound quality should be higher because the amp and speakers are under much less stress.

Let's look at the CV's now at 97 dB under the same conditions.
100 dB is accomplished at a mere 4 watts! This isn't putting any strain on the PSU or receiver at all - he's got 12-15 dB headroom, which is more than adequate for all but the most demanding piece of classical music (and 15 dB ain't gonna happen much), and that's if the reference level is at 100 dB. At 15 watts, you're pushing the volume up to over 106 dB! If that's your reference volume in your living room you will permanently damage your hearing listening to a CD of 45 minutes or longer. It's safe to say this isn't "typical" listening practices for anyone. Not for very long at least :D

Here's a classic case where more power isn't likely to be very beneficial for the application. Those speakers just don't need it unless you're power a gymnasium with them. How big is your room?

The only other argument for an amp is for "sound quality". Normally, I'd agree, you'll get better bass control, less distorition (at higher volumes) and cleaner sound throughout than provided by the amps in an entry level receiver. But that assumes your basic modern speaker. Let me say from experience, even a $10,000 Krell amp isn't going to make Cerwin Vegas sound like anything but Cerwin Vegas. I like CV, they're fun speakers. But they're designed with a purpose in mind, and super refined sound quality just ain't it. CV's are all about bringing loud, distorted AC-DC rawk to your home. Great for getting charged with disturbing the peace, poor for hearing Wes Montgomery slide his fingers across the strings of his guitar...The clarity you desire isn't going to happen (much) by purchasing a better amp. The punch in bass is likely going to better accomplished by better speaker placement, or augmentation with a subwoofer.

Trust me on this. Those same Sony, H/K, and Technics receivers also powered my CV's in college. I upgraded the stereo receiver everytime looking for better sound (well, the jump from the Technics was necessary after it melted), eventually even using my father's NAD integrated and a 100 watt NAD power amp. I knew a lot less back then...you learn the hard way. Got a bit louder, didn't sound better...not really. The difference on the Wharfedales, much more noticeable.

If you want to improve your current setup, in my honest opinion, the biggest difference in sound is going to come from upgrading the speakers. You'll be trading house shaking volume for better sound quality. After that, look at adding an amp to get back to the loudness you desire. Who knows, you might find you're okay with a 60-watt receiver.

If you want more bass in the meantime, a more capable subwoofer (unfortunately subs have never been Yamaha's strong point) might be worth looking into.

Nothing wrong with CV's, by the way, I really miss mine sometimes. I'd just hate to see someone throw money at a solution that likely isn't going to achieve the desired goals. Spend your money wisely...


I hate to disagree with Kex since he has technical knowledge and I don't.
But my argument is that in heavy bass peak music at high volume approx. 95 DB these big effcient floorstanders suck up all the available watts. I had my Bryston 3B-st hooked to my main outs on my Yammie. This amp is rated at 120 watts. So lets say I have 60 watts of clean undistorted power before clipping. Now according to Kex's figure my Studio 100's have a 91 DB effiency, So I should be using somewhere around 15 watts with 9 DB headroom. And guess what my 3B-st will clip, meaning its using at least 60 watts in heavy bass peaks. Steve's Yammie has 40 watts of clean power at best before clipping. So his av/receiver is using the majority of its power when he has 4 other speakers to drive, thus the reason it sounds like crap. Even if you use a better floorstander speaker it'll still sound like crap cause there's not enough power to go around. So an external power amp will take this heavy bass load speaker off his receiver solving his problem.:)

[blackraven]

I use the Adcom GFR-700 AV receiver. Sounds great. 4 ohm rating, 145wpc at 8 ohmsx2ch, 226wpc at 4ohms x 2ch, and 125wpc x5ch. If you want to run 7.1 you will need another power amp. It has 7.1 preamp capability. Cost $2,000 but can get B stock from www.onecall.com for $1299. I also like the sound of the Denon 3806.

[kexodusc]

I hate to disagree with Kex since he has technical knowledge and I don't.
But my argument is that in heavy bass peak music at high volume approx. 95 DB these big effcient floorstanders suck up all the available watts. I had my Bryston 3B-st hooked to my main outs on my Yammie. This amp is rated at 120 watts. So lets say I have 60 watts of clean undistorted power before clipping. Now according to Kex's figure my Studio 100's have a 91 DB effiency, So I should be using somewhere around 15 watts with 9 DB headroom. And guess what my 3B-st will clip, meaning its using at least 60 watts in heavy bass peaks. Steve's Yammie has 40 watts of clean power at best before clipping. So his av/receiver is using the majority of its power when he has 4 other speakers to drive, thus the reason it sounds like crap. Even if you use a better floorstander speaker it'll still sound like crap cause there's not enough power to go around. So an external power amp will take this heavy bass load speaker off his receiver solving his problem.:)

A few things going on here...

First, I don't disagree that more power makes the sound cleaner at louder volumes. If you'll all read my original post I asked about room size and desired volume. This is critical. My assumptions used a 20 X 20 room, the figures apply to that scenario.
Also I only included 2 speakers in the assumption. Read the OP...it mentions 5.1 as an afterthought. I assume stereo listening is stereo listening - as in 2 speakers only. If other speakers are added, volume is increased by their output too...depending on the room, this can actually make it easier on the amp. Perhaps worse. No sub considered either, which if used with a crossover, really eliminates any "bass power sucking" problems.

Second. Your Bryston should not be clipping at 60 watts, especially a Bryston rated for 120 watts. There should be ample headroom there. I'm guessing well over 200 watts for bass peaks...How do you know it's clipping? If it's cliipping, I'm guessing your using more power than you think.

I just did a little experiment.

I have a 40 watt NAD integrated that I just ran to my bookshelf speakers - measured 89 dB sensitivity. I get in room bass transients in mid/high 90's on Crystal Method's Vegas CD no problem. The NAD 3140's power meters show mostly above 5 and rarely above 25 watts. When the 50 lights up I know I'm into dynamic power, above it's average rating. This is tops for my ears in my living room, and my SPL measures 89-97 dB, eyeballed. The needle's bouncin'...The bass isn't breaking tectonic plates, but it's plenty loud....That's a 40 watt NAD integrated amp. These are the peaks that are hitinng the 97 dB range...but it happens every second a few times. I hooked up my Adcom GFA-535II...the distortion meters don't light up - I can't see the power usuage, but if there's no LED, I"m good. Now, 97 dB is a long way from 89...

I can't speak to what's going on in your setup without being there, but it could be a number of things.

Again, how loud do you listen, and how large is the room?

I used the 4 watt example in Steve's setup earlier, is near the limits, but it's an average 100 dB volume with 110 + dB peaks...110 is what would show up on the SPL meter...nobody is going sit in a house and listen at that level (I hope).

My intention was to use a ridiculous scenario to point out basic concept. If Steve only needs the odd 100 dB peak, more power isn't going to be demanded by the speaker if this is his listening level...Doesn't matter how big the amp is...it won't be sending the extra power.

Turning the volume up to get more bass or better sound is a common practice, but that's really an indication of a speaker's limits in terms of high-fidelity. And I'm going to argue that the louder his speakers go, they worse they WILL SOUND. Those aren't really long throw woofers. The drivers don't like too much power. These CV's were around $300-$400 (I think they replaced mine) when they came out, and were marketed to sell with Pioneer, Kenwood, Technics gear, etc...$400-$500 receivers back in the day. The likes of NAD, Adcom, Bryston etc are rarely used with CV's :D

I'm not opposed to adding more power - but I'm also thinking of the big picture here. His receiver doesn't have pre-outs, getting another one, or adding an amp is going to be expensive. The most it's going to do is show a tiny bit of improvement at the extreme volumes. I think there's a more effective allocation of his resources to be made addressing the speakers, if improved sound is the goal.

[Wireworm5]

My room is 25'x 11'x 7'. I estimated the Bryston 3B-ST clips at about 60 watts (LED lights turn red) 'cause with my SST which I now use for my 100's at 75 watts of clean power has never clipped at these volumes. Introducing an equalizer into the chain I can now get it to clip at these volumes if I'm not careful with the settings. I generally listen around 92 DB range but sometimes crank it depending on the music. According to your figures its probably using somewhere close to 120 watts which I didn't think was correct.
Using a sub doesn't eliminate upper bass freq. Mine is set at 80 crossover and I still got my ST to clip at my normal listening volumes with heavy bass peaks. It's possible though that I had my main's set to large, I don't recall for sure.

PS: My spec sheet for Bryston 3B-SST has 74 at clipping, which is probably a percentage (133 of 180) which I mistaken for 74 watts.

[royphil345]

Oh dear. The most discriminating audiophiles I know wouldn't even make that claim - maybe "expect a slightly clearer, tighter, slightly more detailed, somewhat better bass weight, and a few dB's louder"...yeah, that's more like it.


The most discriminating audiophiles I know wouldn't smack a rat in the a$$ with that 60 WPC Yamaha HT receiver. You're rude, obviously lack real-world experience regarding this guy's question and you're wrong. I do hope you're not playing audiophile God with a 60 WPC Yamaha HT receiver in your rack.... LOL I''ve been around awhile. I know what similar receivers are capable of doing with Cerwin Vegas... Not much... There is more than efficiency to consider in what kind of load a loudspeaker presents to an amp.

You want a night and day difference? Run just about any pair of full sized floorstanders with the 60 WPC Yamaha receiver and then with a quality 200 WPC amp (or even a QUALITY 60 WPC amp). Try to play 'em loud... Night and day? YES!!!

This guy's issue is with the sound turning to mush at significantly lower volume levels than he thinks the CVs should be capable of. He's absolutely right. They are capable of more. A quality amplifier is the cure. Yep...

The specs on the CVs are likely exaggerated. The specs on the Yamaha are likely exaggerated. CVs have been well known to require decent amplification for best results, possibly something about the load they present... This guy came here with a specific issue he did an excellent job of describing. An issue that just screams insufficiant amplification is the cause. Are you telling him it isn't really happening because theoretically it shouldn't be? Your textbook knowledge is quite impressive. But, using it to confuse this guy when the solution to his problem is very simple and contrary to what you're telling him??? Trying to make people look foolish because they just can't agree with you due to what they've seen in real-life experience??? I don't know...

The CVs may lack some refinement, but I think you greatly underestimate what they're capable of. This poster's only complaint about his system was reduced performance at higher volumes. His system's weakness is actually what should be it's best attribute. CVs can do loud if nothing else... That's a well-known fact. Better amplification is the key here.

The guy didn't ask what kind of speakers you would have bought. He basically asked if he was getting the most out of his speakers by driving them with the 60 WPC Yamaha receiver. The answer is definitely not.


If he took your advice and bought "audiophile" speakers... I think he'd still find the receiver a substantial bottleneck in the system and eventually replace it. To tell you the truth... I wouldn't even bother with anything that said Yamaha on it and claimed a power output of anything less than 100 WPC .... for driving ANY loudspeaker with a reasonable amount of authority. This receiver is not capable of bringing out the best in ANY loudspeaker. Money spent on better speakers would be wasted without replacing the Yamaha. Money spent replacing the Yamaha would unquestionably acheive better performance from the CVs. So... Which is the better upgrade path???

Still say a decent HT receiver with preamp outputs and a quality amplifier for the mains (or just a very high-quality receiver with more power) would be the best way to get the most out of these CVs on a budget while retaining HT capabilities. Unfortunately, that Yamaha doesn't have preamp outputs...

A sub capable of playing low, loud and clean enough to properly compliment the CVs at higher volumes wouldn't hurt.

About the power meters on amps... I think they're often just too slow to show peak power output. I use mine as guage of average power output and estimate the peak power output to be significantly higher.

[PeruvianSkies]

Ladies and Gents it looks like we got a real duel going on here. I'd prefer to say out of this battle, but I did want to chime in just a few things. I wanted to point out that essentially here we have a few different thoughts on the matter. We have 3 components that we are talking about: amp, receiver, and speakers. In my mind they are all 3 essential. At one point I thought that a good receiver was the way to go, which is only partially true. Once I started getting better speakers I realized that I also needed better amplification, so It would seem that these are dependant on one another. Of course that is the way with this entire hobby. Incremental upgrades in 1 area, requires equal upgrades in other areas in order to bring everything in sync. I can say for certain that by adding 2 amps to my receiver I was able to greatly lighten the load of my receiver. Now it only has to handle the center channel and the sub, which will change in the future, but for now is good. Eventually I would like to have a separate amp dedicated for each speaker, but that is way down the road once I actually have 5 matching speakers.

I can honestly say that I agree with a little bit of what everyone has said on some level or another and I don't necessarily think that one party is right or the other is wrong, it's more a matter of preference and circumstantial in many respects.


Ok, let the battle resume....

[royphil345]

I can honestly say that I agree with a little bit of what everyone has said on some level or another and I don't necessarily think that one party is right or the other is wrong, it's more a matter of preference and circumstantial in many respects.


Ok, let the battle resume....

No more battle... I'm done.

I elect you as official judge and being half right is good enough for me. I think that's the best I could expect since it's common knowledge I'm half crazy...

[kexodusc]

My room is 25'x 11'x 7'. I estimated the Bryston 3B-ST clips at about 60 watts (LED lights turn red) 'cause with my SST which I now use for my 100's at 75 watts of clean power has never clipped at these volumes. Introducing an equalizer into the chain I can now get it to clip at these volumes if I'm not careful with the settings. I generally listen around 92 DB range but sometimes crank it depending on the music. According to your figures its probably using somewhere close to 120 watts which I didn't think was correct.
I'm not familiar with your amp so I'll trust you know it better than I do.; Only thing I can add is a bit about the power usage. Music is literally demanding a large range of power every second, while your SPL meter might read 90 dB or higher, the actual power consumption is all over the map. Anywhere from below 1 watt to over 50. The peaks are near instantaneous usually (think loud cymbal crashes, etc). Even a cheapo Yammie receiver with it's 300 watt power supply, isn't going to struggle putting out well above it's "rated power" during these peaks. Is it going to have as much current and reserve power as your Bryston, hell no, not even close. But with a reasonably efficient speaker above 90 dB or something approaching 100 dB, you've compensated for this quite a bit. Not to say they won't sound better as the electronics improve, as I believe this is the case.

For the record, I run my Yamaha receiver as a pre-pro with 3 power amps attached. My room is over 22 X 20, I had the extra gear, I use it. I feel it sounds better. I'm not opposed to this.

What I am opposed to is a everyone rushing out and giving advice to add a power amp to a receiver with no pre-outs, or to buy a new amplifier when we first haven't even established that more power is going to be beneficial in this application. If Steve comes back and says he never listens above 90 dB, he's going to get an incremental performance increase at best for his money adding a new amp.


Using a sub doesn't eliminate upper bass freq. Mine is set at 80 crossover and I still got my ST to clip at my normal listening volumes with heavy bass peaks. It's possible though that I had my main's set to large, I don't recall for sure.
No, it doesn't eliminate them, though they aren't as demanding as the frequencies below 100 Hz, typically.


PS: My spec sheet for Bryston 3B-SST has 74 at clipping, which is probably a percentage (133 of 180) which I mistaken for 74 watts.
That's cool. Bryston makes serious amps - I've never heard one that couldn't perform beyond it's cautious rating.

[kexodusc]

The most discriminating audiophiles I know wouldn't smack a rat in the a$$ with that 60 WPC Yamaha HT receiver. They wouldn't be caught dead with CV's, either, but that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.


You're rude, obviously lack real-world experience regarding this guy's question and you're wrong. I do hope you're not playing audiophile with a 60 WPC Yamaha HT receiver in your rack.... .
What's in my rack has nothing to do with the facts and opinion in this discussion so far. What, are you going to insult my boombox?

As for being rude, well, I can be, as required. Not my goal here though. I have enough experience to back up what I'm talking about with substance, facts, and reasoning and not just happy-feel-good rhetoric that can't be explained by anything other than blind faith. My answer to problems is not to throw money at them hoping it'll solve it. How long did people spend on this thread before recommending the amp upgrade? 30 seconds? Without even asking for all the details on his setup? Especially when it's someone else's. Look, I'm not attacking you personally, if my tone came across as doing such, I apologize.


LOL I''ve been around awhile. I know what similar receivers are capable of doing with Cerwin Vegas... Not much... There is more than efficiency to consider in what kind of load a loudspeaker presents to an amp No doubt, hence the questions re: loudness and room size. I didn't ever say adding power wouldn't improve things at all. I've only question whether it was the most effective allocation of resources for generating sound improvements in this scenario. If Steve doesn't exceed 90 dB for music EVER, more power isn't going to do anything for him. Even a crappy 300 watt receiver is going to be able to handle the load for those speakers unless they have a ridiculously low impedance profile well below 4 ohms. These do claim to be compatible with 8 ohm units though, that's all I can go by. I'm not saying an amp won't make it sound a bit better, I am saying for the cost, it isn't likely to meet the expectations some responses are likely to have created.


You want a night and day difference? Run just about any pair of full sized floorstanders with the 60 WPC Yamaha receiver and then with a quality 200 WPC amp (or even a QUALITY 60 WPC amp). Try to play 'em loud... Night and day? YES!!!
I see you avoided the comment I made earlier? Why then are so many audiophiles spending soo much time investing in low watt SET amps that only deliver a mere fraction of the power we're talking about here? Power and sound quality are not directly proportional. Ever wonder why a 40 watt NAD will sound better than a 100 watt Denon?


This guy's issue is with the sound turning to mush at significantly lower volume levels than he thinks the CVs should be capable of. He's absolutely right. They are capable of more. A quality amplifier is the cure. Yep...
We haven't even established at what levels this is occuring at. We don't know how he has the speakers set up in his room. They could right beside walls, his room untreated. Forget seeing if we can help him properly place his speakers and get the most out of his system as is before dropping money. No, let's just encourage him to spend money on amplification and promise him tremendous gains. Ain't gonna happen! Amps make differences, not huge night and day differences. The speakers will be the limiting factor.


The specs on the CVs are likely exaggerated. The specs on the Yamaha are likely exaggerated. A receiver, crappy as they are, will deliver it's rated power into two channels. As for the CV spec exaggeration, could be. That number is high enough to allow plenty of comfort room though.


CVs have been well known to require decent amplification for best results, possibly something about the load they present... This guy came here with a specific issue he did an excellent job of describing. An issue that just screams insufficiant amplification. Are you telling him it isn't really happening because theoretically it shouldn't be? Your textbook knowledge is quite impressive. But, using it to confuse this guy when the solution to his problem is very simple and contrary to what you're telling him???
CV's are well known for having mediocre sound quality at high levels, and terrible quality at lower levels. They're not made for hi-fidelity. Dumping hundred on power amplification isn't going to clean up a somewhat muddy sound. That's just how CV's sound.


Trying to make people look foolish because they just can't agree with you due to what they've seen in real-life experience??? I don't know...
Now you're on to me.


The CVs may lack some refinement, but I think you greatly underestimate what they're capable of. This poster's only complaint about his system was reduced performance at higher volumes. His system's weakness is actually what should be it's best attribute. CVs can do loud if nothing else... That's a well-known fact. Better amplification is the key here.
Ever consider for a second that maybe, just maybe, adding power to this setup is only going to add loudness, and not do a thing for the muddy sound? Or is this impossible, in your experience?


The guy didn't ask what kind of speakers you would have bought. He basically asked if he was getting the most out of his speakers by driving them with the 60 WPC Yamaha receiver. The answer is definitely not.
We've established and agree his receiver isn't the greatest. Great, so everyone says, yeah more power is better. He runs out, drops $400 on a new integrated, and finds his speakers can play louder, a few minor subtleties have been improved, but for the most part the muddy sound remains. Except now he's out a wad of cash. Is everyone here going to refund him his money?



About the power meters on amps... I think they're often just too slow to show peak power output. I use mine as guage of average power output and estimate the peak power output to be significantly higher.

Generally instantaneous readings, so peak power is triggering the highest readings.
In music, peak and average power are hard differentiate. When amps are tested, they use sign waves, so you get a true, constant power signal of say, 60 watts...But with a music signal, you're all over the map. The higher number is the one you need to be concerned with though, that's what'll cause damage or distortion. The power ratings on even the crappiest Kenwood receiver will tell what the receiver can do with a sign wave in unrealistic conditions. Even those will have some headroom above and beyond the rated power for musical peaks.

[westcott]

Ok, let the battle resume....


Now, if you really want me to stir the pot, I will tell you that even though you have a separate amp, if it only has one plug for the wall, it is only putting out a max of around 800 watts. No matter what the mfg says or how many "300 watt channels" you bought.

Why? Because most people have a 15 or maybe a 20 amp circuit that it is plugged into. VERY few exceptions unless your amp acutally has two heavy duty plugs and they are connected to two DEDICATED circuits. NOT just two plugs.

The following is an exerpt from Audioholics. I will provide a link to the whole article for those who want more details. But, as you will see, a good receiver is already hitting the limits of what you can pull from the wall under present UL and CSA approval.

References:

Household Line: 120V, 15A can deliver max continuous power of (120 x 15) = 1800 watts (assuming no derating as per UL)


Amplifier Efficiency:

Typical Linear (A/B) Amplifier is between 40-50%.

Rail switching amps such as Class G/H can be as high as 65%

Switching amps (Class D) can see up to 90% real world efficiency assuming a properly designed power supply is utilized.


Note: These estimates assume the amp is under full load and that the power supply transformer doesn't overload, operates in the linear VA curve, and maintains regulation.


Let's focus on linear amps for the moment, since these are currently the most popular type tested and purchased by home theater consumer folks.


Now take our 1800 watt max power from the wall and multiply it by our amp efficiency (let's choose 45%) and we get: 1800 x .45 = 810 watts . This is the max power a typical linear A/B amp can deliver on a continuous basis from a 120V, 15A household line - assuming, of course, the amplifier's power supply can consume the entire 1800 watts of power from the line without causing the power transformer to overheat or go into thermal meltdown and likely trip the breaker.


By now folks from the ACD camp are saying, - well let's use a 20A line instead! That only gets the designer 4 more amps - or 2.6A with a normal power amp! What they fail to realize is most UL compliant consumer electrical devices utilizing the IEC320 receptacle, limit the max current consumption to less than 15A to prevent arcing which can cause a fire, death or serious injury (not to mention voiding your liability insurance). Unless the amp has a specialized connector on the back, or two independent power cords, it is likely it will be limited to 15A continuous consumption for safety's sake. We shall consider those type of devices as an outlier (not typical) and continue on with the more typical consumer devices reviewed and purchased for our home theater systems.


As a side note, other limitations include the AC wall outlet and breaker in the fuse box as well as the potential for 14GA wire run to the AC socket - 12GA wire has to be used for a legitimate 20A breaker.


As we already established, our linear amp best case continuous power delivery is limited to around 810 watts.


What does this give us under the ACD test?


5 Channels Driven: 810 / 5 = 162 watts per channel

7 Channels Driven: 810 / 7 = 116 watts per channel


Note: This doesn't factor in any additional losses due to processing, and other active devices in a receiver.





Here is the link that reduces the power capabilities even further but I thought this would get everyone mad enough at me!!!! Now, I will say that separate amps can produce a cleaner sound and provide more available power to respond to large dynamic swings, but it usually robs Paul to pay Peter, to do so since rarely is the demand on all the channels being asked to drive being used at the same time.

All Chanels Driven Falacy (http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-all-channels-driven-acd-amplifier-test)

[royphil345]

We've established and agree his receiver isn't the greatest. Great, so everyone says, yeah more power is better. He runs out, drops $400 on a new integrated, and finds his speakers can play louder, a few minor subtleties have been improved, but for the most part the muddy sound remains. Except now he's out a wad of cash. Is everyone here going to refund him his money?

Your arguments are getting very weak. It's obvious you just want to be right and you'll wriggle around all day trying to prove it.

Unfortunately, You're ignoring the most basic fact here. THIS GUY IS HAPPY THE SOUND OF HIS CERWIN VEGAS. HE WANT'S BETTER PERFORMANCE AT HIGHER VOLUME!!! That's what this thread is about!!!

When he buys fancy "audiophile" speakers and they sound like crap powered by his weak receiver (and you know darn well they would) will you refund his money?

THAT RECEIVER SIMPLY DOES NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO DRIVE ANY LOUDSPEAKER WITH AUTHORITY AT HIGHER VOLUME LEVELS!!!

THERE ARE FACTORS THAT MAKE CERTAIN SPEAKERS MORE DIFFICULT TO DRIVE BY CHEAP AMPS EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE EFFICIENT. The room etc... has NOTHING to do with this.

This guy obviously wants good sound at higher volume levels. Changing speakers will not get him there. Changing out the Yamaha would be an absolutely necessary step towards that goal. Considering that he sounds pretty happy with the CVs besides the sound turning to mush at higher volume levels... More power is simply the most logical first upgrade.

Have you even heard the new CV lines? Calling them terrible and muddy-sounding is just ridiculous if you haven't... There's a difference between offering helpful advice or just regurgitating stuff you've heard and facts that can be effected by many factors you haven't taken into consideration.

You yourself said "Ever wonder why a 40 watt NAD will sound better than a 100 watt Denon?". That's EXACTLY what I'm saying here. The specs don't always tell the whole story. This guy could do with a better amplifier. Take a deep breath and admit it... LOL


Wriggle out of that...

[royphil345]

Now, if you really want me to stir the pot, I will tell you that even though you have a separate amp, if it only has one plug for the wall, it is only putting out a max of around 800 watts. No matter what the mfg says or how many "300 watt channels" you bought.

Why? Because most people have a 15 or maybe a 20 amp circuit that it is plugged into. VERY few exceptions unless your amp acutally has two heavy duty plugs and they are connected to two DEDICATED circuits. NOT just two plugs.

The following is an exerpt from Audioholics. I will provide a link to the whole article for those who want more details. But, as you will see, a good receiver is already hitting the limits of what you can pull from the wall under present UL and CSA approval.

References:

Household Line: 120V, 15A can deliver max continuous power of (120 x 15) = 1800 watts (assuming no derating as per UL)



Another case of using scientific facts without considering all the factors...

An amplifier stores the line current in capacitors. The line current comes in at 60HZ (here anyway). Much power draw from the capacitors can be for bass frequencies below 60HZ which take the most power to reproduce. The line current can charge the capacitors faster than they are drained by low frequencies. More wattage is actually available at lower frequencies than the line current needs to produce.

TAA DAA!!!

what that's got to do with this thread I don't know...

[westcott]

Another case of using scientific facts without considering all the factors...

An amplifier stores the line current in capacitors. The line current comes in at 60HZ (here anyway). Much power draw from the capacitors can be for bass frequencies below 60HZ which take the most power to reproduce. The line current can charge the capacitors faster than it is drained by low frequencies. More wattage is actually available at lower frequencies than the line current needs to produce.

TAA DAA!!!

what that's got to do with this thread I don't know...

I suggest you go back and read the ENTIRE article. Line choke prevents this and causes high frequency distortion, tricking the mind that the low frequencies are cleaner and tighter.

[kexodusc]

Your arguments are getting very weak. It's obvious you just want to be right and you'll wriggle around all day trying to prove it

On the contrary. You continue to avoid them, calling them weak without explaining why they are weak. For the 3rd time, I'd like you to explain why some of the best performing amplifiers ever designed are in fact extremely low power - lower than even this receiver.
C'mon...Yeah, I'm calling you out - that very fact flies in the face of you assertions about high power always leading to better sound.

There's 2 sides to this debate:
You: "More power will give you exactly what you want, always, because I say so"
and
Me: "More power might not be the best solution for your particular needs, depending on your volume preferences, room size, etc because of the following considerations..."

Again, I never once said power won't help here, I only question, in all fairness to Steve, whether it's the most effective upgrade path in this instance. In this case based on experience and some knowledge, I think there may be a better option (again, pending the loudness requirements of Steve).

Unfortunately, You're ignoring the most basic fact here. THIS GUY IS HAPPY THE SOUND OF HIS CERWIN VEGAS. HE WANT'S BETTER PERFORMANCE AT HIGHER VOLUME!!! That's what this thread is about!!!

Yes, and I see you failed to guarantee that more power won't just make the muddy sound louder, you didn't even accept that this is a great possibility. Again, my point all along has been to question which path leads to the most effective allocation of resources to achieve the desired sound. We still haven't established how loud he listens to his current speakers. For all we know, loud to him might be 80 dB.

I know damn thing or two about earlier model CV's...I was a long time proud owner (did you miss that) of a set of VS120's way back when, the same exact f'n brand!

I'm not totally ignorant to their sound. And I'm not BS-ing this, do a search on the forum here and you'll find more than a few threads where I discuss "my ol' CV's)...Here's the first one I found:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=19628&highlight=college


THAT RECEIVER SIMPLY DOES NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO DRIVE ANY LOUDSPEAKER WITH AUTHORITY AT HIGHER VOLUME LEVELS!!!
It's not going to top 115 dB optimally, no, but what's the need of the listener? What is loud? How many times do I have to say this to you - you are using absolutes, and universal arguments to support your positing, I'm merely trying to demonstrate that there's far more to consider beyond the ol "receivers suck, get a big amp" arguement.




This guy obviously wants good sound at higher volume levels. Changing speakers will not get him there. Changing out the Yamaha would be an absolutely necessary step towards that goal. Considering that he sounds pretty happy with the CVs besides the sound turning to mush at higher volume levels... More power is simply the most logical first upgrade.

Wriggle out of that...

Well, in light of overwhelming superior arguements, I change my mind. I am wrong.



Have you even heard the new CV lines? Calling them terrible and muddy-sounding is just ridiculous if you haven't... There's a difference between offering helpful advice or just regurgitating stuff you've heard and facts that can be effected by many factors you haven't taken into consideration.

Not sure what new CV's have to do with the sound of 13 year old model? Wiggle out of that...

[royphil345]

You yourself said "Ever wonder why a 40 watt NAD will sound better than a 100 watt Denon?". That's EXACTLY what I'm saying here. The specs don't always tell the whole story. This guy could do with a better amplifier. Take a deep breath and admit it... LOL

You didn't reply to that one...

...and he wishes he had a 100 watt Denon over a 60 watt Yamaha...

[kexodusc]

You didn't reply to that one...

Not sure what your point was, elaborate, and I'll gladly reply...
If you're referring to superior fidelity from higher grade electronics, I agree , though I question,again, whether that is the best use of his money. I maintain that sound quality improvements from a speaker upgrade likely will outweigh the sound quality improvements from an amp upgrade.

If you're complaining about the accuracy of the specs - that's a whole other discussion.

[royphil345]

C'mon...Yeah, I'm calling you out - that very fact flies in the face of you assertions about high power always leading to better sound.

Yeah... You are calling me out for sure.

Problem is... This thread was never about higher power always leading to better sound. I never said that at all. That may be what you're trying to twist this argument into, but it's not happening.

This thread was about the poster's system where I can guarantee you his particular amp is a huge bottleneck in performance. I posted about the dramatic improvements he would indeed realize at higher volume levels through higher quality amplification. I didn't come right out and say it at the beginning before I needed to defend myself, but the fact is there is not much that 60 WPC Yamaha will ever drive with authority at higher volume levels. Your speaker upgrade would be wasted on it. If he likes it loud, it needs to go. SIMPLE FACT.

That's what this guy wanted to know. Was the receiver a bottleneck? How do you get CVs to sing?

[Resident Loser]

Another case of using scientific facts without considering all the factors...

An amplifier stores the line current in capacitors. The line current comes in at 60HZ (here anyway). Much power draw from the capacitors can be for bass frequencies below 60HZ which take the most power to reproduce. The line current can charge the capacitors faster than they are drained by low frequencies. More wattage is actually available at lower frequencies than the line current needs to produce.

TAA DAA!!!

what that's got to do with this thread I don't know...

...WTF does line frequency have to do with AC line current or bass response at or below 60Hz?

BTW, caps filter/store rectified DC which is what the PS changes the AC (regardless of line frequency) into...

BTW revisited and FWIW, the old Advent 300 only had 15Wpc and could kick the proverbial...

jimHJJ(...now for my impression of a ground loop...HHHMMMmmmmm...)

[royphil345]

I suggest you go back and read the ENTIRE article. Line choke prevents this and causes high frequency distortion, tricking the mind that the low frequencies are cleaner and tighter.

You ain't trickin' my mind. There is nothing to prevent an amp from using all the energy stored in the capacitors. They sometimes do and start to clip in fact. They are charged at 60HZ. They can be drained at a lower rate depending on the frequency of the sound being reproduced. They can supply more wattage than the line input for short periods or at lower frequencies. FACT.

[kexodusc]

This guy could do with a better amplifier. Take a deep breath and admit it... LOL
LOL...Okay, I promise to admit that a better amplifier will offer some improvement, if you promise to go back, read all my threads, and admit that I've already said that several times from the start!

My point all along hasn't been whether a better amp can make it sound better - can u understand this?
It's about whether it's the best path to achieving the desired sound? We can't know this until he answers a few more questions.


This thread was about the poster's system where I can guarantee you his particular amp is a huge bottleneck in performance. I posted about the dramatic improvements he would indeed realize at higher volume levels through higher quality amplification. I didn't come right out and say it at the beginning before I needed to defend myself, but the fact is there is not much that 60 WPC Yamaha will ever drive with authority at higher volume levels. Your speaker upgrade would be wasted on it. If he likes it loud, it needs to go. SIMPLE FACT.

You cannot say for certain that the 60 WPC Yamaha is a bottleneck because you cannot demonstrate whether it's being pushed to its limits or not. If we're talking in the 80 - 90 dB range, that receiver isn't working hard at all. Adding more power in this case is going to be a waste.
How much demand is he placing on it? Tell me, how many watts? How many dB's is he talking about when he says "loud"? Do you know? Can you quantify this?
If not, you cannot make your absolute statements, no matter how many times you keep repeating yourself.

[kexodusc]

jimHJJ(...now for my impression of a ground loop...HHHMMMmmmmm...)
ROFLMAO!!!!
You're a little off-key, that 60 Hz should be about B, you're giving us a D.

[markw]

I see watts sorta like horsepower. The more, the merrier and it's always better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

But, as evidenced this Saturday, all the horsepower in the world won't do a thing if the wheels are on pack ice. All it will do is spin the wheels, but you still ain't gettin' nowhere until you get rid of the ice.

IOW, methinks there are other problems he needs to address first. Then, perhaps, additional power might be better used. Also, his listening levels are still an open issue. IE, how loud is loud.

[GMichael]

ROFLMAO!!!!
You're a little off-key, that 60 Hz should be about B, you're giving us a D.

You're deaf. That was a G sharp if I've ever heard one.

[royphil345]

IOW, methinks there are other problems he needs to address first. Then, perhaps, additional power might be better used. Also, his listening levels are still an open issue. IE, how loud is loud.


You guys (or guy I'm starting to suspect) are trying to make what's obvious out to be a huge mystery...

How loud will a Yamaha receiver rated at 60 WPC play through floorstanding Cerwin Vegas or anything else for that matter without mushing up? Not loud enough to impress... not that loud at all really (and that's coming from an old guy) and let's face it, that's what it's about with CVs. That's just the way it is and anyone with any experience with similar gear knows it. All this stuff about how loud etc... It's just not the big mystery you're making it out to be. Everybody knows that particular receiver just isn't capable of providing that solid, rock concert experience CVs are built to deliver and CV owners expect to hear.

[Resident Loser]

You're deaf. That was a G sharp if I've ever heard one.

...offtimes tell folks that they are playing or singing in the key of "L"...

Blimey mate, sure sounds like 'ell to me...

jimHJJ(...rimshot please...)

[markw]

How loud will a Yamaha receiver rated at 60 WPC play through floorstanding Cerwin Vegas or anything else for that matter without mushing up?When the speaker has a sensitivity rating of 97 db, it doesn't really take a heckuva lot of watts to get some fairly painful SPL out of them.

1 watt = 97 db
2 = 100
4 = 103
8 = 106
16 = 109
32 = 113
64 = 116

Again, how loud is loud for this guy? http://www.renewwisconsin.org/windfarm/decibel.html

Remember, doubling the power only yields a barely audible 3 decibel increase. To realize an apparent doubling of perceived loudness will require 10 times the power. He may be better served with PA stuff. Heck, it won't sound much worse.

[royphil345]

Yeah... same stuff again... More numbers to try and disprove what is...

But then you'll agree that a 40 WPC NAD can outperform a 100 WPC Denon... Running in circles...

Bottom line is anyone who knows the gear knows this receiver will simply not make those CVs sing. Like I said, It's just no big mystery...

[Resident Loser]

You guys (or guy I'm starting to suspect) are trying to make what's obvious out to be a huge mystery...

How loud will a Yamaha receiver rated at 60 WPC play through floorstanding Cerwin Vegas or anything else for that matter without mushing up? Not loud enough to impress... not that loud at all really (and that's coming from an old guy) and let's face it, that's what it's about with CVs. That's just the way it is and anyone with any experience with similar gear knows it. All this stuff about how loud etc... It's just not the big mystery you're making it out to be. Everybody knows that particular receiver just isn't capable of providing that rock concert experience CVs are built to deliver and CV owners expect to hear.

...have you ever actually made any correlation between power output and volume level? Have you ever seen how much power is required for a given SPL? Ever looked at an analog output meter or LED display while taking measurements with an SPL meter?

If not you will probably be quite surprised...I have relatively inefficient speakers and normal cruising level around 85dB (midway between very loud and extremely loud in OSHA-speak) is done on <5 Watts...As a general rule of thumb twice as loud would bring that up to 95dB (like being in a subway) an increase of only(?) 10dB but requiring ten times the power or roughly 50 Watts...

Now with more efficient speakers the dBs will go up given the same power levels...so after you have your ears examined you might want to try your head...

jimHJJ(...simple really...)

[royphil345]

Blah blah blah...

That 60wpc rated Yamaha just might be able to kick those CVs because the square root of pi blah blah blah....

NO IT WON'T!!! It's that simple. No blah blah blah will ever change that. Anybody who knows the gear knows it's true. You're just making a fool of yourself.

I need my ears examined? I need my head examined??? That's all you have left ??? ...and attacking me with multiple IDs...

You need an attitude adjustment.

You're a rude little punk. Spoiled child who throws the board when losing the game. Grow up. You were wrong on this one and resorted to this trash before giving it up. Don't use fighting words unless you're ready to fight. I'll give you my address... Will you give me yours????

[GMichael]

Blah blah blah...

That 60wpc rated Yamaha will kick those CVs....

NO IT WON'T!!! It's that simple. No blah blah blah will ever change that. Anybody who knows the gear knows it's true. You're just making a fool of yourself.

I need my ears examined? I need my head examined???

You need an attitude adjustment.

You're a rude little punk. You're wrong. Don't use fighting words unless you're ready to fight. I'll give you my address... Will you give me yours????

Argue all you like. But please save the fighting for the school yard.

No one has said that the Yamaha will kick those CV's.

Try not to melt down on us.

[kexodusc]

Blah blah blah...

That 60wpc rated Yamaha just might be able to kick those CVs because the square root of pi blah blah blah....

NO IT WON'T!!! It's that simple. No blah blah blah will ever change that. Anybody who knows the gear knows it's true. You're just making a fool of yourself.

I need my ears examined? I need my head examined??? That's all you have left ??? ...and attacking me with multiple IDs...

You need an attitude adjustment.

You're a rude little punk. Spoiled child who throws the board when losing the game. Grow up. You were wrong on this one and resorted to this trash before giving it up. Don't use fighting words unless you're ready to fight. I'll give you my address... Will you give me yours????

You've discovered my secret of using multiple identities to gang up on people with opposing views...Oh well....4-1, I win!!!

(Please don't beat me up)

[L.J.]

*slup.....slurp......munch,munch......crackle...cr ackle.....slurp......*

LJ whispers "Psst, can you pass some more popcorn. Thanks."

*munch....munch.....slurp.......munch.......*

[GMichael]

*slup.....slurp......munch,munch......crackle...cr ackle.....slurp......*

LJ whispers "Psst, can you pass some more popcorn. Thanks."

*munch....munch.....slurp.......munch.......*

(A man in a suit walks up and shines a light in your face) May I see your ticket stub sir? I believe that you are in the wrong theater.

Uhm,... Is that real butter? We don't sell real butter here. And we sure don't sell soda in bottles. Please come with me.

[Resident Loser]

Blah blah blah...

That 60wpc rated Yamaha just might be able to kick those CVs because the square root of pi blah blah blah....

NO IT WON'T!!! It's that simple. No blah blah blah will ever change that. Anybody who knows the gear knows it's true. You're just making a fool of yourself.

I need my ears examined? I need my head examined??? That's all you have left ??? ...and attacking me with multiple IDs...

You need an attitude adjustment.

You're a rude little punk. Spoiled child who throws the board when losing the game. Grow up. You were wrong on this one and resorted to this trash before giving it up. Don't use fighting words unless you're ready to fight. I'll give you my address... Will you give me yours????

...speaking of making a fool of oneself, do tell us again how AC line frequency is the current that charges the capacitors in the amps' power supply and somehow affects the low freqs...or how sheeps' bladders may be used to predict earthquakes...both seem about equally valid.

jimHJJ(...we...plural...meaning more than one...are eager to slake our respective thirsts in your vast puddle of knowledge...BTW I have neckties older than you...pass me the popcorn, this I gotta' see...)

[royphil345]

...speaking of making a fool of oneself, do tell us again how AC line frequency is the current that charges the capacitors in the amps' power supply and somehow affects the low freqs...or how sheeps' bladders may be used to predict earthquakes...both seem about equally valid.

I can't predict earthquakes with a... um... sheep's bladder... ?

But, I can mop the floor with a mouthy dumba$$...

I know how the girls must swoon when you say "oh my" and start talking about sheep's bladders... LOL ... It's that new Dr. Smith chic thing... Oh my!!!... Tragic...



...I did once create wind using nothing but pork rinds...

[PeruvianSkies]

This is like RUMBLE IN THE JUNGLE or WWIII. I don't know who is winning just yet, but it's getting thick.

[herm0016]

not wanting to pull out the notes from circuits last semester, but line freq. does change how the caps are charged. the big power transformer and capacitors and inductors in your amp will store charge so that you can drive it above what you may calculate as the max power coming out of your wall. they will also act like a damper in the system to limit the speed with which the current is supplied to the amp. I have built devices that i did not feel like putting a battery in, just use a capacitor, it will supply a charge like a battery. ( if you use the right size and the circuit is designed for it) now, what this has to do with the OPs question i have no idea.
CV's are not great, but they work and do a decent job. Yamaha amps are not the top of the line either, but i would put them up against a comparable HK or Dennon any day of the week. I think a receiver with a bit more power would be a good upgrade for the OP. No matter what an upgraded receiver will provide him with more features to make it sound like he wants it to. It will also give him more options if the current one has no pre-outs or a LF-out. If he is looking for cleaner more refined sound an upgrade in speakers may be just the ticket.

[topspeed]

Wow! How did I miss this thread?!?:yikes:

I brought some Goobers to mix with the popcorn, so stop hoggin' it all LJ...

Oh, and Mike, I gave my ticket to the bear.










Oh,

Royphil, you're argument is quite entertaining. Please, do go on. http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[westcott]

You've discovered my secret of using multiple identities to gang up on people with opposing views...Oh well....4-1, I win!!!

(Please don't beat me up)

I told you I could stir the pot. I just didn't think it would boil over!!!!

The only winners are those that come to the forum with an open mind and leave having learned something.

If I gave the impression that separate amps are useless, forgive me. Separates do have their place but I will let everyone in on a little secret. Their advantages really come from two things today.

1) Better components.
2) Signal Isolation.

1) With a separate amplifier, you are able to built a unit that has beefier components that will not fit in a conventional receiver. Usually they are better components than those found in an audio reciever, but not always. This allows more heat to be dissipated due to the extra mass.

2) Signal Isolation is probably the greatest advantage since amplification can be separated from the signal processors, thereby isolating radio frequency interference and electromotive forces that can cause disortion of the signal coming from the signal processors. The ability to separate signal processing from the amplication section is a nice advantage of separates and is the greatest contributor to better sound. Power is far less of an influence with todays high quality AV recievers. But, without a speaker that is capable of resolving this extra resolution, any investment in either a better preamp of AV reciever is futile.

Hope this helps.

[powerlord]

Just my two cents,for my Eosone mains I had started out with a Pioneer reciever rated at 95 wpc and they sounded nice at low level but real dirty at high levels,so I tried an upgrade to a higher end pioneer with 110 wpc and no difference,so I try one more time on the reciever upgrade to my Marantz that I have now and bingo!These babies sing loud and clear at almost all levels(haven't tried them all the way up and won't) my speakers specs are as follows sensitivity 89db, overall frequency response 26hz-22khz,rated 8ohm.So actually this is a question like the thread starters,was it the quality of reciever?The power upgrade?I was just wondering,because these Eosones woke up on the Marantz enough to get my audiophile friends wondering why their bling bling systems didn't sound this good.

[stevef22]

I'm sorry, can you repeat all that again? No seriously, thanks everyone for being so adamant about receivers, sound quality, listening experience, technical specifications etc etc.

My level of volume is around 70 Db - 80 Db max for movies and music, Thanks for the chart!

I am going to dig around locally for a good separate amp as many people have suggested. Even though my Yamaha receiver doesn't have preout, I am going to try and use the analog output on the back of my Oppo Universal player. I will take that analog output and run it to the separate amp. Currently the coaxial output on the Oppo Universal player is going to the Yamaha receiver.

Im learning that punch and clarity at higher volumes I am looking for may be in better speakers. But I am on cheap O budget so I am going to find a quality amp first.

Oh ya, forgot to mention...
My room has tile, vaulted ceilings and flat straight walls.
http://enigmawebdesign.com/room.png


PS. Locally I found this amp for sale, $140 Vintage Sansui 8900ZDB
http://c.im.craigslist.org/FW/kk/cHBCIVRYYNHs5kFPiUpTVebKv0Jv.jpghttp://d.im.craigslist.org/hl/91/S7xWBPojAv6USUed8RbYg8WPDmWV.jpg
I'm sure you guys are familiar with this receiver, Should I offer less money and try and score?

[superdougiefreshness]

I can honestly say that I agree with a little bit of what everyone has said on some level or another and I don't necessarily think that one party is right or the other is wrong, it's more a matter of preference and circumstantial in many respects.

Ok everyone, from top geek to lowest mole "me" I would honestly invest in a better set of Interconnects, and certainly something far better then monstercrapple....LOL which to the average guy is thought to be good, mostly we know better. My system improved ever so hugely when it was UNCLOGGED.
This dude is saying at low volumes his CV's get very mushy---thats a clogged signal. I did spent about $130 USD on a custom made pair of interconnects; named "Sonic Euphoria" made here in SanDiego for 1/2 a meter of length and the speaker cables are vintage high gauge,about 20 years old.
My system came to life and all the mushyness is completely GONE. I don't think anyone has addressed this issure to the posting party. Dude may be using 32 gauge computer fan wire and the sound could be total Phlegm. lets see what the guy is running and find out if them there pipes are clogged......before spending on theory or speculation.......GIVE THIS A TRY it worked gloriously for this system I am running.
I use an old Kenwood 40wpc receiver with kick aRss interconnects then run about 9 gauge speaker cables to celestion monitors. And I sometimes hook up my 1977 vintage Pioneer HPM-60's if I need a more rock/disco if you will sound. My Celestions are not rock and roll speakers, but baby are they ever SO sweet. :ciappa:

[royphil345]

I still don't think his receiver is up to the task of giving him what he wants out of his Cerwin Vegas...

Still... You brought up a good point that nobody else did. At least decent interconnects and 12 gauge speaker wire are particularly important in getting the best out of floorstanders. Some of the interconnects I tried actually made my floorstanders sound more like bookshelves. I wouldn't go nuts spending money on wires for a system like that. But, I would make sure the wires are beefy enough.

As far as that Sansui goes... Are you ready to give up surround? Also, Electronics that old could really use a going over to make sure they're performing to specs. I wouldn't usually recommend going vintage unless you just love the gear and you're willing to spend money on it and time finding someone to work on it. Vintage gear can look like a way to save money, but it usually doesn't turn out that way in the end.

I'd be looking for a HT receiver with a better build or a higher power rating and preamp outputs to start. That should make a nice improvement. From there, you could eventually add an external power amp for the main two channels if you really want to play those CVs as loud as they can play.... Or you could look at other speakers if you become more interested in quality over quantity... I really do think a new receiver would be a must to get respectable performance out of any speaker at higher volumes, and the way to go for a first step.

Although... believe it or not... some may disagree... LOL

[superdougiefreshness]

I still don't think his receiver is up to the task of giving him what he wants out of his Cerwin Vegas...
Still... You brought up a good point. Decent interconnects and 12 gauge speaker wire are particularly important in getting the best out of floorstanders. Some of the interconnects I tried actually made my floorstanders sound more like bookshelves. I wouldn't go nuts spending money on wires for a system like that. But, I would make sure the wires were beefy enough.

I believe when someone gets a first great set of cables and/or interconnects they will continue to use them with multiple system upgrades. Many high end shops work this method to demo high end gear, especially speakers. For this application it would be a great idea to open the pathways a bit to hear what is being sent to the speakers first.
Then see if you need more power and/or need a new set of door knocker's to pound the room out. When I upgraded interconnects not only did the quality of sound improve but so did the sheer volume or loudness. I did not need to play my music as loud because the speakers became so sensitive to volume level changes. My music sounded faster "if thats possible"? And the midrange sound became wider in the rooms space. And the top end, well it became etherial.
I think this could help here because new wires would be so transferable. And relatively inexpensive comparable to the other options here, especially if your talking interconnects.
Later
SuperDougieFreshNess - San Diego - Heaven on Earth - Espechilly in March, :idea:

[PeruvianSkies]

The initial question was: is good sound possible from ONLY a receiver. I think that the answer is YES. Good sound. Great sound on the other hand can be accomplished by adding separate power amps into the equation.

Of course good sound from a receiver only happens when you have a good receiver...right? So maybe you are curious as to what receivers are worthy? I have found that Pioneer Elite, Denon, and Marantz are all quite decent and offer more affordable offers. Once you get above their tier or prices you may as well go with separates.

[kexodusc]

stevef22:
70-80 dB might require 0.04 watts..even for loud peaks requiring 15 dB of headroom, maybe 1 watt total... Power isn't the issue, clearly.

If you choose to upgrade the electronics, you may notice some performance improvements in the are of sound quality. I know first hand when I upgraded from stereo receivers (Sony, Technics) to better gear from Harmon Kardon, and eventually NAD integrated and power amps, my CV's didn't sound any better....definitely not worth the money I spent on upgrading electronics. As mentioned by several other people, the culprit wasn't the power, but, the ability of the speakers to resolve the minor details higher grade components can offer. My answer was to buy a pair of Wharfedale Emeralds...This is when I realized where I was going wrong. You want to talk night and day? (funny thing, those Wharfedales were expensive back then, today I've heard better speakers for much cheaper).

My CV's were model VS-120, they look the same as the pic you provided, you say yours are VS-12. I think, actually these are the same speakers I had. Anyway, I think I paid $400 for them back in the day. They certainly weren't the most revealing speakers, but man could they rock.

There's no question that speakers will account for the biggest change in sound, should you upgrade your system.
One nice thing about upgrading your amp now, if/when you decide to buy new speakers, you won't be wondering if your 60 wpc Yamaha is adequate. If you do get new speakers, don't sell the CV's, you'll regret it :D

Good luck.

[Resident Loser]

I can't predict earthquakes with a... um... sheep's bladder... ?

But, I can mop the floor with a mouthy dumba$$...

I know how the girls must swoon when you say "oh my" and start talking about sheep's bladders... LOL ... It's that new Dr. Smith chic thing... Oh my!!!... Tragic...

...I did once create wind using nothing but pork rinds...

...again, explain how AC line frequency affects a speakers low frequency response...we're still waiting...still eating those pork rinds I see...or rather otherwise sense...

jimHJJ(...perhaps you play with girls, I prefer women...)

[markw]

My level of volume is around 70 Db - 80 Db max for movies and music,That level puts virtually no demand on the power amp at all. If this is the level at which you're complaining about distortion, then lack of power most certainly isn't your problem.

Likewise, neither are cables or interconnects, assuming you're using at least 16 gauge for the speakers.

As I said before, old school, big box, big driver, full range speakers on the floor can almost guarantee a muddy, inarticulate sound, particularly at higher volume levels.

[GMichael]

So nice to see everyone getting along again. Well, almost everyone.

Hey LJ & Speedy,

I was going to move you up to the boxed seats with surround sound but, if you like it where you are, who am I to complain. I'll just drink all this beer by myself.

[Feanor]

.... My system improved ever so hugely when it was UNCLOGGED.
This dude is saying at low volumes his CV's get very mushy---thats a clogged signal. I did spent about $130 USD on a custom made pair of interconnects; named "Sonic Euphoria" made here in SanDiego for 1/2 a meter of length and the speaker cables are vintage high gauge,about 20 years old.
My system came to life and all the mushyness is completely GONE. I don't think anyone has addressed this issure to the posting party. Dude may be using 32 gauge computer fan wire and the sound could be total Phlegm. lets see what the guy is running and find out if them there pipes are clogged......before spending . :ciappa:

Did we find out what stevef22 is using for interconnects? There is a depth to which one should not sink, and that is usually the junk cable that comes with the typical mid-fi receiver, DVD player, etc.

On the other hand it's foolish to go nuts and spend thousands (at least on anything less than a quite high-end system). I heartily recommend interconnects from Blue Jeans Cable. As good or better than all but the most exotic and expensive stuff ...

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/
The same goes for the Belden 5000 series, 12 or 10 ga. speaker cable they recommend.

[royphil345]

...again, explain how AC line frequency affects a speakers low frequency response...we're still waiting...still eating those pork rinds I see...or rather otherwise sense...

You're very obviously an absolute moron when it comes to anything that requires actual thinking and knowledge in very basic electronics rather than cutting and pasting. You don't seem to even understand enough about what I said to ask a question about it that makes any sense... Quit lying about what I said, or read it until you at least understand what you're arguing about. Shouldn't you at least have to know what I said in order to to have a problem with it, a$$hole? Ask a question that makes sense and I'll be glad to answer. Act like an immature a$$hole and attack me when you don't even know what you're arguing about... I'll just tell it like it is...

Why don't you ask him how he knows the distortion starts at 80db? Stupid idiot.... I already know the answer... Can you guess??? You have to be some dumb kid judging by your dorky personality and complete lack of any knowledge that would come by experience or street smarts.

The 60 WPC Yamaha is JUNK. Their 100 watters will get the job done better, still won't drive CVs to their max potential. Most people who have real experience with audio equipment know this.



You say "jimHJJ(...perhaps you play with girls, I prefer women...)" ???

Dead giveaway there ace... You see... All boys want a woman... All men want a girl... Someday you'll understand... maybe (gotta' consider who I'm talking to).

[royphil345]

So nice to see everyone getting along again. Well, almost everyone.

Hey LJ & Speedy,

I was going to move you up to the boxed seats with surround sound but, if you like it where you are, who am I to complain. I'll just drink all this beer by myself.



A beer..... Oooooh ......you're cool................... punk...................

I'm tellin' your mom..... when I see her again...

[royphil345]

That level puts virtually no demand on the power amp at all. If this is the level at which you're complaining about distortion, then lack of power most certainly isn't your problem.

Likewise, neither are cables or interconnects, assuming you're using at least 16 gauge for the speakers.

As I said before, old school, big box, big driver speakers on the floor can almost guarantee a muddy, inarticulate sound, particularly at higher volume levels.


I have a pair of JBLs that just absolutely sealed your idiot coffin.... Do you really expect anyone to believe you know what you're talking about???... LOL What an idiot... Nicer than anything a goof like you will ever own...

[GMichael]

A beer..... Oooooh ......you're cool................... punk...................

I'm tellin' your mom..... when I see her again...

Now now...
Didn't your momy ever teach you to not call people names? You can have soda instead if you like. I won't tease you. Really.

Just having fun Roy. Please don't think I'm attacking you. I have read plenty of your posts in the past and have never seen you be mean to anyone before.

[Resident Loser]

not wanting to pull out the notes from circuits last semester, but line freq. does change how the caps are charged. the big power transformer and capacitors and inductors in your amp will store charge so that you can drive it above what you may calculate as the max power coming out of your wall. they will also act like a damper in the system to limit the speed with which the current is supplied to the amp. I have built devices that i did not feel like putting a battery in, just use a capacitor, it will supply a charge like a battery. ( if you use the right size and the circuit is designed for it) now, what this has to do with the OPs question i have no idea.
CV's are not great, but they work and do a decent job. Yamaha amps are not the top of the line either, but i would put them up against a comparable HK or Dennon any day of the week. I think a receiver with a bit more power would be a good upgrade for the OP. No matter what an upgraded receiver will provide him with more features to make it sound like he wants it to. It will also give him more options if the current one has no pre-outs or a LF-out. If he is looking for cleaner more refined sound an upgrade in speakers may be just the ticket.

...last time I looked, way more than last semester...probably in the neighborhood of 35 yrs. ago, AC's (you know, sine waves and all that) location-dependent line frequency of 50/60 hz had zero to do with the DC (+/- voltages) that amplifiers run on...Once the AC passes through a full-wave rectifier and the pulsating DC is filtered to remove any ripple-effect, line frequency is essentially a moot point...If this were not the case why would most modern electronic devices be rated for either 50 OR 60 Hz line frequency?

Now if you want to get into the "size" of the caps and the joules and coulombs and what a specific power supply is capable of producing and storing while subject to difficult and inefficient loads, that's one thing...from what I understand CVs have a high sensitivity but are rated @ 4 Ohms nominal impedance which could present a problem to some amplifiers...However, in saying that I would be more concerned with the current output than Watts of the driving unit.

In any event, line frequency is neither voltage nor current nor does it have any bearing on a loudspeakers frequency response as has been suggested.

jimHJJ(...which was, at the outset, what provided the impetus for my participation in this tread...)

[markw]

I guess your true class and (in)breeding is just coming out. Oh well, you asked for it.


I have a pair of JBLs that just absolutely sealed your idiot coffin.... Do you really expect anyone to believe you know what you're talking about???... LOL What an idiot... Nicer than anything a goof like you will ever own...Now, now, child. let's take a step back and analyze exactly what I said.


As I said before, old school, big box, big driver speakers on the floor can almost guarantee a muddy, inarticulate sound, particularly at higher volume levels.Exactly what part of "can almost guarantee" don't you understand? That means "not every single one". That's called a qualifier and when you take some reading courses you might understand this. But, I guess they don't teach this in junior high english anymore.

Now, if you are saying that his speakers are on the same level as yours then you might have a shot at looking intelligent. Otherwise, you've just (again) shown your proclivity to start calling names, spewing insults like you do your jizm on the bathroom floor, and jumping to absurd conclusions when people have the sheer audacity to disagree with you rather than discuss things like adults. All that really shows is your inability to come up with a reasoned response.

Likewise, from your other posts here you seem to guarantee the OP that by simply plugging those speakers into a more powerful power amp all his problems will magically disappear. Is that your final answer?

So, what JBL's are you so proud of? Are they as good as his Cerwin-Vega!'s?

[royphil345]

...last time I looked, way more than last semester...probably in the neighborhood of 35 yrs. ago, AC's (you know, sine waves and all that) location-dependent line frequency of 50/60 hz had zero to do with the DC (+/- voltages) that amplifiers run on...Once the AC passes through a full-wave rectifier and the pulsating DC is filtered to remove any ripple-effect, line frequency is essentially a moot point...If this were not the case why would most modern electronic devices be rated for either 50 OR 60 Hz line frequency?

Now if you want to get into the "size" of the caps and the joules and coulombs and what a specific power supply is capable of producing and storing while subject to difficult and inefficient loads, that's one thing...from what I understand CVs have a high sensitivity but are rated @ 4 Ohms nominal impedance which could present a problem to some amplifiers...However, in saying that I would be more concerned with the current output than Watts of the driving unit.

In any event, line frequency is neither voltage nor current nor does it have any bearing on a loudspeakers frequency response as has been suggested.

jimHJJ(...which was, at the outset, what provided the impetus for my participation in this tread...)


Well... It looks like you possibly want to discuss this for real without misquoting me and just arguing for the sake of arguing so...


I'll do my best...

First, I never said anything about the line frequency effecting frequency response.

EDIT: OK... First draft not entirely correct... The transformer actually charges the filter capaciters pretty much continuously with up to the full wattage capicity of the wall outlet depending on the size of the power supply... minus efficiency losses... Basically, when one of the two AC leads stops charging the filter capacitor through the transformer, the other one starts. Yeah... I got a little lost there before... The power is DC as it leaves the transformer with just a touch of frequency (ripple) left in it because of a very short delay time between cycles in AC and lag caused by the transformer. This will be removed by using the power to charge the filter capicitors which will store it and deliver it as clean DC.

But the important part is that the wattage drained from the filter capacitors through the "valve" and loudspeaker INTERMITTENTLY (at a frequency, any frequency in fact) can indeed exceed the wattage available from the transformer / wall outlet to charge the capacitors CONTINUOUSLY, minus efficiency losses... This effect is actually greater than I thought (all frequencies can be reproduced at a higher wattage than what is available continuously) and this wasn't at all considered in the equation you believed to be complete, I believed to be incorrect, and I have proven to be in error. You simply cannot figure out the maximum wattage an amp can put out using a given input without taking the frequency of the output into consideration. That last sentence says it all and cannot be denied.


The impedance load presented by the speaker has mainly one effect. Less resistance will allow more wattage to flow through from the power supply through the speaker. That's why many amps have a higher power rating when used with lower resistance speakers. Although, if the amp has an insufficient power supply, or the "valves" (tubes or transistors) aren't capable of passing the increased power to the lower impedence speakers without overheating as is the case in many receivers... The amp will not be able to deliver increased power to the lower impedance speakers, or will be damaged in the process, or protection circuitry will be triggered.

Notice the load really has no impact on how much power an amp will produce with a given wattage available at the outlet though. A lower impedance speaker will get more wattage from the amp, but the amp will also require more power from the power supply / outlet on the wall. Load will have little effect on how much power you get out compared to what you put in. Just has an impact on how much flow is allowed between the power supply and the speaker.

[Resident Loser]

...there's that ground hum again...


You're very obviously an absolute moron when it comes to anything that requires actual thinking and knowledge in very basic electronics rather than cutting and pasting. You don't seem to even understand enough about what I said to ask a question about it that makes any sense... Quit lying about what I said, or read it until you at least understand what you're arguing about. Shouldn't you at least have to know what I said in order to to have a problem with it,a$$hole? Ask a question that makes sense and I'll be glad to answer. Act like an immature a$$hole and attack me when you don't even know what you're arguing about... I'll just tell it like it is...

Why don't you ask him how he knows the distortion starts at 80db? Stupid idiot.... I already know the answer... Can you guess??? You have to be some dumb kid judging by your dorky personality and complete lack of any knowledge that would come by experience or street smarts.

The 60 WPC Yamaha is JUNK. Their 100 watters will get the job done better, still won't drive CVs to their max potential. Most people who have real experience with audio equipment know this.

...now let's compare and contrast, shall we...Exhibit A, post #31


An amplifier stores the line current in capacitors.

Well, yes and no...Caps store energy, "charged" by the applied current, but since it's rectified and no longer AC it's not really "line" current per se...you make it sound like the AC current is somehow directly applied and stored in Mr. Faraday's device...these are DC caps, not AC caps which are more suited to low output motors and fluorescent lamps...so actually maybe it's more like no and no...


The line current comes in at 60HZ (here anyway). Much power draw from the capacitors can be for bass frequencies below 60HZ which take the most power to reproduce.

And here's where it gets good...Which means what exactly? Line frequency and current are mutually exclusive i.e. two different things...current is measured in amperes and line frequency in Hertz...as if that bush-league faux-pas weren't enough, additionally you seem to be making some sort of correlation between the 60Hz AC line frequency (as in sine-wave) and bass frequencies below 60Hz...So if there is any misunderstanding, it's the result of poor language skills on your part, but I realize high school can be a difficult time in adolescent life...


The line current can charge the capacitors faster than they are drained by low frequencies. More wattage is actually available at lower frequencies than the line current needs to produce.

Gobbledegook...Do you mean to say the power supply of a 100Wpc amp can automatically provide more reserve energy and probably more headroom than a 60 Wpc amp? Not really...If the lower powered amp can produce 120W into a 4 ohm load and the hunnert-watter only 140 into that same 4 Ohms which is the "better" of the two...Rated Watts (a product of voltage and current) really got nuffin' to do with it...Again it's the ability of the amp to provide the required current into a given load...Then we get back to speaker efficiency...a horn-loaded speaker is inherently more efficient (has a higher sensitivity) than an acoustic suspension one; it's simple physics.

BTW, when I attack you, you'll know it...

jimHJJ(...now go back to biting yourself...)

[royphil345]

Exactly what part of "can almost guarantee" don't you understand? That means "not every single one". That's called a qualifier and when you take some reading courses you might understand this. But, I guess they don't teach this in junior high english anymore.


Likewise, from your other posts here you seem to guarantee the OP that by simply plugging those speakers into a more powerful power amp all his problems will magically disappear. Is that your final answer?


Look butthead...

So what you're saying is that your "qualifier" made what you posted absolutely meaningless. I absolutely agree. Exactly like most of your other posts. But you keep spewing rubbish anyway, just for the sake of spewing rubbish, possibly believing that someone is actually buying it and thinks you're not a dumba$$. If not, there's a "qualifier".


Will a better amp make all his problems disappear?... Only the one he complained about in this post, dumba$$!!! What were you saying about them not teaching English anymore??? READ THE POST DUMBASS!!! Sorry if I offered helpful advice when you couldn't. Sorry you're so insecure that you feel it's worth starting a war over, you goofball.

Did you find out why he thinks he's losing steam at 80db yet???... LOL... You had all the answers though... .

Enough of this crap... I need to get some work done today...

Your last post is just a joke... shows you understand nothing. Of course frequency is frequency, voltage is voltage, current is current... no matter what it's being used to do... Electricity is electricity. It moves through conductors towards the ground, that's all it does. It does it at different strengths (voltage), it does it at different speeds (current), it can be made to come in spurts (frequency). And yet you actually call me names because you can't understand these most basic facts???

[Resident Loser]

Well... It looks like you possibly want to discuss this for real without misquoting me and just arguing for the sake of arguing so...You still have to factor in efficiency loss, like you said...

...I was responding to herm0016...so unless you are using sock puppets...

There's another post in which I'm responding to you directly...

jimHJJ(...BTW there ain't no misquotes...)

[Dusty Chalk]

So nice to see everyone getting along again. Well, almost everyone.

Hey LJ & Speedy,

I was going to move you up to the boxed seats with surround sound but, if you like it where you are, who am I to complain. I'll just drink all this beer by myself.I can hear fine from the back.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/popcorn.gif
Go get 'em you guys!

[topspeed]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh man, this thread just gets better and better! This is approaching Lex melt-down level. The CAPS are even starting to fly! Where's Wooch? He should see this!

Mike, throw me a cold one.

[markw]

Look butthead...

So what you're saying is that your "qualifier" made what you posted absolutely meaningless. I absolutely agree. Exactly like most of your other posts. But you keep spewing rubbish anyway, just for the sake of spewing rubbish, possibly believing that someone is actually buying it and thinks you're not a dumba$$. If not, there's a "qualifier".


Will a better amp make all his problems disappear?... Only the one he complained about in this post, dumba$$!!! What were you saying about them not teaching English anymore??? READ THE POST DUMBASS!!! Sorry if I offered helpful advice when you couldn't. Sorry you're so insecure that you feel it's worth starting a war over, you goofball.

Did you find out why he thinks he's losing steam at 80db yet???... LOL... You had all the answers though... .

Enough of this crap... I need to get some work done today...

Your last post is just a joke... shows you understand nothing. Of course frequency is frequency, voltage is voltage, current is current... no matter what it's being used to do... Electricity is electricity. It moves through conductors towards the ground, that's all it does. It does it at different strengths (voltage), it does it at different speeds (current), it can be made to come in spurts (frequency). And yet you actually call me names because you can't understand these most basic facts???So, Whose starting a war over this? Not I. It seems you're the only one about to pop a vein in your head. Since you started with the name calling 'm just having fun at your expense now. Actually, you stated this with just about everyone who disagreed with you but it's only when you turned your penis in my direction that I gave you what you were asking for.

So, are your speakers as good as his? I note you still haven't named 'em so I guess you still haven't decided which ones to claim you own. Take your time. It doesn't really matter. At this point I doubt anyone would believe you anyway. What's that sucking sound? Oh, that's just your credibility going down the drain.

[royphil345]

So, Whose starting a war over this? Not I. It seems you're the only one about to pop a vein in your head. Since you started with the name calling 'm just having fun at your expense now. Actually, you stated this with just about everyone who disagreed with you but it's only when you turned your penis in my direction that I gave you what you were asking for.

So, are your speakers as good as his? I note you still haven't named 'em so I guess you still haven't decided which ones to claim you own. Take your time. It doesn't really matter. At this point I doubt anyone would believe you anyway. You've pretty much shot off both your feet in this thread. What's that sucking sound? Oh, that's just your credibility going down the drain.

Yeah, your family has been swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool all right.


YES, YES, YES!!!

I WIN!!!

YOUR LAST POST HAD NO CONTENT AT ALL!!! COMPLETE MELTDOWN!!!

NO ARGUMENTS LEFT...

I WIN!!!!!

punk...

[markw]

YES, YES, YES!!!

I WIN!!!

YOUR LAST POST HAD NO CONTENT AT ALL!!! COMPLETE MELTDOWN!!!

NO ARGUMENTS LEFT...

I WIN!!!!!

punk...If it makes you happy to think this, then have fun.

You still haven't owed up to what speakers you're referring to. ...hee hee hee. ......liar .

What your feeble brain can't comprehend is that I've heard more than enough speakers of that class and calibre over the years to be confident in my general apprasial. Yes, there are a few that don't fit that generalization but that one certainlty does. Obviously, with your limited experience, you haven't had that opportunity and are basing your opinions on what you want to believe, not what is.

So, you see, by asking what your basis for your opinion was was a valid question for discussion. But, since you so conveniently sidestepped answering it when asked, I guess you lose by default.

[GMichael]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh man, this thread just gets better and better! This is approaching Lex melt-down level. The CAPS are even starting to fly! Where's Wooch? He should see this!

Mike, throw me a cold one.

I don't get it. He's always been very nice in the past. Got the gloves on today though.

Pfsssst.... Here ya go Speedy.

Haven't seen Wooch anywhere today. He may be saving his energy for Hamburger.
Wish Sir TT was still around.

[Resident Loser]

...we oughta' introduce him to SVI...

Seems like they might hit it off since they have so much in common...

I mean like JBLs and that certain inability to see the forest for the trees...

And that latent...oh, what's the word?...

jimHJJ(...naivete'...yeah, that's the ticket...)

[markw]

I don't get it. He's always been very nice in the past.http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=18134&highlight=Naim

He just doesn't like being wrong and doesn't accept correction (or facts he doesn't like) graciously. A common ailment among those with low self esteem who think they know more than they actually do.

[Resident Loser]

I don't get it. He's always been very nice in the past. Got the gloves on today though..

Wish Sir TT was still around.

...it's that time of the month...BTW shouldn't that metaphor be "gloves off"?

Dare I say it? I actually miss TtT...

jimHJJ(...I'll talk to ya' later, I'm eatin' a p'tater...)

[Feanor]

I'm sorry, can you repeat all that again? No seriously, thanks everyone for being so adamant about receivers, sound quality, listening experience, technical specifications etc etc.
...
PS. Locally I found this amp for sale, $140 Vintage Sansui 8900ZDB
http://c.im.craigslist.org/FW/kk/cHBCIVRYYNHs5kFPiUpTVebKv0Jv.jpghttp://d.im.craigslist.org/hl/91/S7xWBPojAv6USUed8RbYg8WPDmWV.jpg
I'm sure you guys are familiar with this receiver, Should I offer less money and try and score?

The Sansui is from the early '80's; it's really pass what aficianados consider "vintage", viz. pre-1980. $140 isn't too bad a price -- you could offer $125 and see what happens. HOWEVER this unit is not an AV/HT receiver and is not an alternative to your Yamaha or any possible AV pre-pro/amp replacement.

[GMichael]

...it's that time of the month...BTW shouldn't that metaphor be "gloves off"?

Dare I say it? I actually miss TtT...

jimHJJ(...I'll talk to ya' later, I'm eatin' a p'tater...)

Can't sneek noffin' past you huh? Ok, get'em off.

[GMichael]

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=18134&highlight=Naim

He just doesn't like being wrong and doesn't accept correction (or facts he doesn't like) graciously. A common ailment among those with low self esteem who think they know more than they actually do.

Where was I durring all this?

[Resident Loser]

The Sansui is from the early '80's; it's really pass what aficianados consider "vintage", viz. pre-1980. $140 isn't too bad a price -- you could offer $125 and see what happens. HOWEVER this unit is not an AV/HT receiver and is not an alternative to your Yamaha or any possible AV pre-pro/amp replacement.

...if it has pre-outs (and you know how much I love that feature) nearly everything is possible...

jimHJJ(...might make a nice pre/control center...)

[Resident Loser]

Can't sneek noffin' past you huh? Ok, get'em off.

...lure me in with a mixed metaphor and then try to have your way with me...SIR! I'm not that sort of girl...I'll keep them on you brute...

jimHJJ(...I have a joke here, but it might be of questionable content and the thread is going oh so well...)

[GMichael]

...lure me in with a mixed metaphor and then try to have your way with me...SIR! I'm not that sort of girl...I'll keep them on you brute...

jimHJJ(...I have a joke here, but it might be of questionable content and the thread is going oh so well...)

Stick it here: http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=22015

Oops, maybe that should have been your line?

[topspeed]

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=18134&highlight=Naim

He just doesn't like being wrong and doesn't accept correction (or facts he doesn't like) graciously. A common ailment among those with low self esteem who think they know more than they actually do.
Wow, I forgot all about that thread!

That read just made ringside seats go up another $100.

[Resident Loser]

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=18134&highlight=Naim

He just doesn't like being wrong and doesn't accept correction (or facts he doesn't like) graciously. A common ailment among those with low self esteem who think they know more than they actually do.

...I know you mentioned it before, but until I actually re-read the thread I'd forgotten how much of a dim-bulb we were dealing with...

jimHJJ(...gee, that was fun...whadaya wanna' do now?...)

[markw]

Wow, I forgot all about that thread!

That read just made ringside seats go up another $100....hoccum nobody's tossed me a cool brewski yet?

[GMichael]

...hoccum nobody's tossed me a cool brewski yet?

You want a dark or a lite? Nevermind. Here's a Guinness Stout.

[L.J.]

*LJ takes a sip of his Long Island*

What............you guys are still drinkin beer? I'm trying to get drunk tonight!

[GMichael]

*LJ takes a sip of his Long Island*

What............you guys are still drinkin beer? I'm trying to get drunk tonight!

Chug chug chug....
I'll take a .... glug glug glug......
LI iced tea.... slurp... BRUUUUURP!
now.

[stevef22]

Sorry to interrupt WW3 but I went out and scored some nice equipment. Skipped school today
and picked up a NAD T760 Receiver and a Marantz MA500 Mono-Amp .
The sound is much better, the vocals are clean and bass is tighter and noticeable. Total cost for new equipment: $130.

Just need another block for the other Cerwin Vega VS120 and I will be set.

Thanks.

http://enigmawebdesign.com/wow.png

[Wireworm5]

Thought you were broke?
Anyways for the record which advice did you follow and was it good advice?

[anamorphic96]

How does it sound with just the NAD driving the Cerwin Vegas. Thats a great receiver that has alot of good clean power. My buddy uses the T751 with his VS10's and it sounds great. Might wanna try and leave some space on top of the receiver so it can breathe better. They tend to get a bit warm.

[PeruvianSkies]

Sorry to interrupt WW3 but I went out and scored some nice equipment. Skipped school today
and picked up a NAD T760 Receiver and a Marantz MA500 Mono-Amp .
The sound is much better, the vocals are clean and bass is tighter and noticeable. Total cost for new equipment: $130.

Just need another block for the other Cerwin Vega VS120 and I will be set.

Thanks.

http://enigmawebdesign.com/wow.png

While I appreciate your desire for this hobby and enthusiasm, you should stay in school and really get a great education and a good job, then you can buy a huge house and fill it with Mark Levinson amps and other insanely expensive high-end gear.

[stevef22]

I hooked the CV directly to the output on the NAD and it just didnt have the punch the M500 Mono Block gives it. Thanks for the suggestion.

Wireworm: I don’t have a lot of dough, why do you think I only got one mono block? : )

Everyone really jumped in and tried to explain the nature of CV speakers and HT consumer receivers. A few people points stuck in my head.

Likeitloud and others: Thanks for the clipping issues when using consumer Yamaha receiver and suggestion for only amping the mains to save money.

Blackraven suggested some nice equipment but I don’t have 1,299 fer good sound.

Kexodusc brought to my attention not to give too much musical fidelity to my CVs, but to accept that they belong next to the pool.
royphil345 made a good point about trying a better amp with my CVs before I jump to buying new speakers and tossing my CVs. He also called out my Yahama receiver correctly as junk even though the CVs are labeled “Highly Efficient” and Kexodusc adamantly argued for better speakers.

Thanks everyone else for into intro into line voltage, capacitors, wattage and general electronics.

I am happy now with the sound using a “better quality” receiver and amplifier. Just need another block. I want to build 2 matching powered subs to create an envelope in the large room. Maybe it will feel like a movie theater?

Did I just use envelope correctly? Did I learn something?

[royphil345]

"The sound is much better, the vocals are clean and bass is tighter and noticeable..."

"I am happy now with the sound using a “better quality” receiver and amplifier."

Who would have ever thought otherwise???... :incazzato:

BWAAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHAAAAA AAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

BEST BURN EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BEST BURN EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though... Great Steve!!! Glad it's working out...

But, you do need to get that DVD player off the top of the NAD or it may fry. You can usually get away with stacking other components, but amps need all the air circulation you can give them.

Now if you ever do want to try different speakers someday, you'll be able to drive them properly and get much more out of that upgrade...

... And I didn't really mean "junk" about the Yamaha. Was just trying to get my point accross. They make some of the most reliable electronics out there... nice features... That particular model would do a nice job of driving smaller, lower quality home theater speakers to decent but not loud levels when used with a powered sub. That's the market it's intended for. It is simply not intended for driving floorstanders to concert-hall levels or getting the most weight and resolution out of high-end speakers... Yamaha makes products that will do a better job of that, but they cost more...

[stevef22]

I will get that player off the NAD ASAP. I just wanted to hook everything up and listen! So now are my amps way ahead of my quality of the CVs?

Will these amps properly drive a nicer pair of Paradigm or Dynaudio floor speakers? Or will I need to find better expensive low Ohm amps?

[Carl Reid]

I will get that player off the NAD ASAP. I just wanted to hook everything up and listen! So now are my amps way ahead of my quality of the CVs?

Will these amps properly drive a nicer pair of Paradigm or Dynaudio floor speakers? Or will I need to find better expensive low Ohm amps?


Yes and Yes. NAD is well respected for their budget gear. However, something to keep in mind when you eventually choose to upgrade the CVs...

SYSTEM MATCHING is extremely important. Though it may seem as if the fact that you have more power is responsible for the improvement in sound, you should also realize that NAD has a totally different sound from Yamaha...

Though, this might be a bit of an exageration... I regard the two sounds as opposite... Yamaha tends to be on the bright side while NAD tends to be a bit rolled off on the highs... So Yamaha is a bad choice for 'bright' speakers... (I've heard that CVs are bright, but I have no first hand experience with them)...

I have heard Yamaha/PSB and Yamaha/Mission combinations that sounded much better than NAD/PSB & NAD/Mission combos. I've also heard some horrible combos like Yamaha/Klipsch and Yamaha/B&W....

So back to your question: I haven't heard NAD/Paradigm or NAD/Dynaudio... but you will want to keep system matching in mind and try and listen to those combos before you drop cash on either of them...

[royphil345]

If you pick up the other monoblock, you should be in business. I believe the Marantz monoblocks are capable of putting out even more power if you should use them with speakers having a lower impedance rating (ohms).

The difference between messing with one and having 2 hooked up to your system will probably blow your mind. Those amps are probably not quite powerful enough to play the CVs as loud as they will play without clipping, but you're very close now. NOW I would agree a further amp upgrade would only make a small difference in sound quality or dB output.

What you have now would do a decent job of driving most loudspeakers. There's absolutely better gear available, but the differences would be more subtle from here. Ditto on the system matching... Great place to start... Congrats!!!

As far as your new gear being overkill for the CVs... No... not really. They absolutely require good amplification to sound their best, even if the sound they produce isn't everybody's cup of tea. Maybe some people don't realize this because of their efficiency rating and don't give them a fair shake. You gave them what they needed. Pricier hi-end electronics capable of the utmost in clarity and detail would be wasted on the CVs. Sufficient quality amplification is a must to get the best out of any loudspeaker though.

From here, I'd add a big CV sub or perhaps something of higher quality (more musical sounding, SVS is nice...) if you plan to upgrade speakers eventually. You would have an absolutely killer party / loud rock / pop system that kicks like a mule. Nothing wrong with any type of system that's well put together and working to it's potential. I'm sure any audiophile would get a kick out of your system... literally... LOL...

It's all about attempting to get the sound YOU want on your budget. Whether it's being able to hear the most subtle details in music delicately and smoothly presented... or a thunderous sound capable of physically hurting people... For enough money you can go a long way towards accomplishing both at the same time...

The only potential problem I see is that your amps will start to clip at almost the full power handling capacity of your speakers. That's why I recommended the overkill of a 200 WPC amp. Overdriving speakers will not damage them nearly as quickly as clipping at high power levels. You can usually hear when you're overpowering a speaker and turn the volume down a little before damage occurs. Clipping can melt voice coils much more quickly. Just be a little careful during those "how loud can it go?" demos and you should be fine. Turn the volume down if you hear any sign of distortion or the sound "mushing up". Include a little safety margin from that point if playing that loud for longer periods of time (say hi to the cops for me... LOL) Most CVs have a fuse which would probably prevent any damage and they are especially good about selling replacement drivers at reasonable prices, so no big worries...

Are those 12 gauge speaker wires? Is that a cheap "in the box" video cable to your monoblock? I used to recommend Monster Cable Standard 100 interconnects as something that at least won't restrict flow and make floorstanders sound smaller for only $10 a 1 meter (with monoblocks it's better to use longer interconnects and shorter speaker cables if possible). They seem to be dropping that line and introducing the THX line. Not sure if the cheapest THX is the equivalent of the 100s or not. You can still find 100s for sale online. http://www.shopallmonster.com/productPage_SI.asp?pin=147 If you want to spend more on cables, I'd probably stay away from Monster Cable's pricier lines and look elsewhere. The 100s are about the only cables they make that don't color the sound IMO. Maybe not the most revealing cable... probably suitable for use with your CVs though. If those speaker cables are 16 gauge, using just a couple feet might be fine. Longer runs require better cables. 5 or 6 feet of 12 gauge wouldn't cost you much to try either...

EDIT: The Monster Standard 100 cables come in joined pairs, but they do easily "unzip" for use as two separate cables with monoblocks.

[stevef22]

The speaker wires say "Oxygen Free 18 Gauge". I guess these are way too thin. Thanks for the heads up on my cheap o RCA cables. They are really thin and bad looking. I will look into those monster cables. Im thinking I might find cheaper on ebay. Thanks for the link.

Steve

[PeruvianSkies]

The speaker wires say "Oxygen Free 18 Gauge". I guess these are way too thin. Thanks for the heads up on my cheap o RCA cables. They are really thin and bad looking. I will look into those monster cables. Im thinking I might find cheaper on ebay. Thanks for the link.

Steve

Steve,

There are millions of different cables out there to choose from and they range from terrible all the way up to great. Part of the question is what you are willing to spend, but sometimes you can be suckered into stuff that just isn't that great and it's hard to tell. I've had fairly good success with certain brands like AudioQuest, PS Audio, Tara Labs, and the ones I am using now WhiteZombieAudio. I've also found a website called ramelectronics.net that offer a variety of cables at a very good price! I'd recommend them if you are wanting something comparable to Monster, but without the Monster pricetag. I was never a fan of the Monster cables when I used them.

[Dusty Chalk]

For entry level upgrades, Monster XP speaker wire is fine, but for interconnects, I like Radio Shack gold series.

[stevef22]

P.S. Thanks for dropping those names, gives me another direction other than Monster Cable. I am looking around on ebay and such to find a nice pair.

[Dusty Chalk]

If you want to avoid Monster, try Acoustic Research. I prefer Monster's XP, but not by much.

EDIT: Oh, never mind, I thought you said, "...give me another direction other than Monster..." Well, it's still a good selection, opens up your options just one notch more.

[jrhymeammo]

How the f**k did I miss this thread?

Just thinking about trippin' on acid with Kex(:10:) in the same room makes me feel like I got Aaron Nevelle singing up and down on my spines.

I dont know~~ much... but I know I~~~

:yikes:

JRAaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

P.S. GET'EM ROY!!!!

[kexodusc]

Sorry to interrupt WW3 but I went out and scored some nice equipment. Skipped school today
and picked up a NAD T760 Receiver and a Marantz MA500 Mono-Amp .
The sound is much better, the vocals are clean and bass is tighter and noticeable. Total cost for new equipment: $130.

Just need another block for the other Cerwin Vega VS120 and I will be set.

Thanks.


Hey Steve-
Glad things worked out for you. I don't even mind taking the parting shots - That's some jump in equipment for only $130. Nice score! So...what's next? :P (- we'll put you in the poor house.)

Cheers!

[Resident Loser]

...who woulda' thunk it...Change out your front end and add an amp with twice the output and here's a noticeable sonic difference...imagine...let's review now and see what we've actually learned...

The Yammie isn't rated into a 4 Ohm load...Do we all know the CVs are a 4 Ohm Speaker? 60 FTC Watts @ 8 Ohms is the best it can muster...and you can ignore all the measured at 1kHz EIA/IHF/Dynamic power ratings (145 Watts @ 2 ohms) as the are all overblown and are, at best, applicable to momentary (at least less than 5 minutes) power pulses before protection devices are triggered...

And the NAD isn't much better...as the OP has so stated...Also not rated into a 4 ohm load and 70 FTC watts (a meaningless diff between it and the Yammie), but it claims to be capable of 40 amps of output current. This number could be significant as it can be momentarily (again <5 min.) driven into a 2 Ohm load and produce 225 Watts...Still not continuous power, still not into an 8 Ohm load, still not 20Hz-20kHz, but more than the Yammies 145...

Now the Marantz...Rated 125W @8 Ohms AND 180W @4 Ohms...WOW, it's actually rated into a four-Ohm load and produces one-third more power into that load, twice would be nice, (that's the proverbial "gold standard") but that the 4 Ohm rating exists at all is a step in the right direction...Was it ever mentioned that the CVs have a nominal 4 Ohm rating?...and it's FTC(RMS) power...and it's continuous...and it's full spectrum... and even though it's roughly twice the Wattage of the Yammie measured at 8 Ohms, that only accounts for all of a 3dB increase, which as I recall is JND territory...sure sounds like high output current is way more significant than the idiotically simplistic suggestion of an increase in Watts will ever be...particularly when driving borderline impedance loads. BTW, just for a comparative reference point, the M500 is EIA rated @ 320 W into 2 Ohms...But it's just numbers and blah, blah, blah...

jimHJJ(...yeah, right...go get 'em roy...)

[GMichael]

Hey stevef22,

Glad you've found what you were looking for.
What's next on the upgrade list?

[royphil345]

:incazzato:

BEST BURN EVER!!!

Thanks JRA...

...Turns out that dood needed a better amp to drive those CVs...

[topspeed]

Congrats on your purchase. Alas, I guess this signifies the impending death of one of my favorite threads this year. Oh, well...

Just for giggles, why not do this: Get a SPL meter from Rat Shack ($35) and do a little amp comparo. Get a friend to help you and without knowing which amp you are listening to, listen at a measured 75dB's (this is your normal listening volume, IIRC). After a bit, have your friend switch the wires to the other amp, set to 75dB's again, and then note the differences. This is actually a lot of fun and it will help you focus. The differences, or lack thereof, may be surprising.

BTW, skipping school is muy malo. The more you study, the better chance you'll have of understanding what Jim and Kex were trying to tell you in the first place. You don't have to be an EE, but it does allow you to make educated decisions.

Enjoy your new toys :).

[royphil345]

:incazzato:



unbelievable...

________________________________

"If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner till the time you crash and burn... better luck next time."

[Resident Loser]

...Turns out that dood (sic) needed a better amp to drive those CVs...

...according to some simply meant more Watts...That's what most noobs would come away with and it's simply not the case...that's the point markw, Kex, myself and certain others were trying to make...and there is more than one way to skin a cat...

The diff between 60Watts and 200Watts will allow for a few dB difference in output however, it's still not the solution if the more powerful amp is not rated to deliver it into a 4 Ohm load...The sound can still sound like cr@p as that nominal 4 ohm impedance (which will vary widely dependent on multiple factors) plays havoc with the amp...even at 200Wpc; may even trigger the protection circuits.

And again, despite all the protestations to the contrary, it's not gonna' take a whole lot of Watts to drive those CVs or any other loudspeaker with similar efficiency...strictly the "boom and tizz" type of audio reproduction, very little in the line of subtlety...Some drivers just tend to sound compressed when driven hard, but it's a trade-off the designers make when they are considering their target market and ultimate use of the product.

And for the record, more nuanced loudspeakers will behave quite well with those 60 Yammie Watts, particularly if their impedance is rated appropriately...Put powered subs with correct Xover parameters into the pic and that's a further strain relief to the recs' amps as you are providing a division of labor...essentially bi-amping...

jimHJJ(...and of course, I have to ask the question "men want girls"?...sort of smacks of pedophilia don't it?...)

[stevef22]

Add to my collection? Im broke as a bum right now. However I did pick up some cheap books at half price book store for $15 bucks. I wanted to get some better books from amazon but they are about 30 bucks each.

Been slumming around Craigs List looking for more local deals. I found a pair of PSB Stratus Goldi for sale. Just dont have 1400 to spend on them. If anyone wants them I will pick up for you. : ) Link to PSBs' (http://austin.craigslist.org/ele/300339660.html)

Thanks for the tips on skool.

Picture of 2 new books:
http://www.enigmawebdesign.com/boo.png

[kexodusc]

Hey, I have both those books, well, the 4th edition of Weems, bu the same White/Louie edition.
The dictionary isn't a bad base, though I wonder if you won't know most of it. The Weems book touches on some speaker basics, has a decent crossover primer, and has a few really classic budget projects if you get motivated...And it's either this, or his other book that touches on the dual-chamber reflex design - my favorite cabinet design - sealed sound, ported extension...don't be discouraged by the terrible pictures though, whoever built those cabinets is a hack...

Soak it up.

[jrhymeammo]

SInce you've already purchased the book, I'm not gonna suggest you to throw'em away. Just get on the Wikipedia/Google and do a simple search. That way, you'll get variety of ideas.
Audio is a hobby for me as well, but seriously..... just enjoy what's present in your enviornment. This whole thirst for knowledge is kinda cool, but you just gotta say f*ck it and enjoy your music.. Do you really wanna endup like some members on this thread feeling they gotta spit everything they know? (allow me to do the same)

Just remember that anyone can regurgitate what they "experienced" based on what they've read or heard. All of that means absolutely nothing when you dim the lights and can't even enjoy your music.

Allow me to pass on the best advise I've ever received from our good buddy Bernd. When the voices of all the audio mumbo jumbo start creeping inside of your head, you just gotta say

"Go away you Arsehole"

works for me about 95% of the time. Other times, I'm on this site looking for threads under names like "Kex" and "RL" screaming

"I need to read their holy posts, and figure out what I can do to my system AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!............ cuz that one is righteous ......Ahhhhhhhhhhhh............(breathing).....and that other one is a jerk so he must know best AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

and after all that screaming, you will enjoy your tunes alot more.

That's just me though.


Puppy Love,

Jra................aaaaAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GMichael]

Thanks for the tips on skool.



Now that's kool.

[GMichael]

SInce you've already purchased the book, I'm not gonna suggest you to throw'em away. Just get on the Wikipedia/Google and do a simple search. That way, you'll get variety of ideas.
Audio is a hobby for me as well, but seriously..... just enjoy what's present in your enviornment. This whole thirst for knowledge is kinda cool, but you just gotta say f*ck it and enjoy your music.. Do you really wanna endup like some members on this thread feeling they gotta spit everything they know? (allow me to do the same)

Just remember that anyone can regurgitate what they "experienced" based on what they've read or heard. All of that means absolutely nothing when you dim the lights and can't even enjoy your music.

Allow me to pass on the best advise I've ever received from our good buddy Bernd. When the voices of all the audio mumbo jumbo start creeping inside of your head, you just gotta say

"Go away you Arsehole"

works for me about 95% of the time. Other times, I'm on this site looking for threads under names like "Kex" and "RL" screaming

"I need to read their holy posts, and figure out what I can do to my system AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!............ cuz that one is righteous ......Ahhhhhhhhhhhh............(breathing).....and that other one is a jerk so he must know best AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

and after all that screaming, you will enjoy your tunes alot more.

That's just me though.


Puppy Love,

Jra................aaaaAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone who doesn't like to learn is welcome to burry their heads in the sand instead of arguing that they already know all they need to know.

[Resident Loser]

...yes...wikipedia and the interweb...two sources of unimpeachable knowledge...

jimHJJ(...Hey GM did that peg your meter?...)

[kexodusc]

...yes...wikipedia and the interweb...two sources of unimpeachable knowledge...

jimHJJ(...Hey GM did that peg your meter?...)

Aww, c'mon, if it's on the internet, it's gotta be true....


kexodusc (...as RL might say, you can lead a horse to water...)

[GMichael]

...yes...wikipedia and the interweb...two sources of unimpeachable knowledge...

jimHJJ(...Hey GM did that peg your meter?...)

Thanks a lot RL! The needle twiched a little and then a puff of smoke rose out. Now I'll need a new meter.:incazzato:

Kex, it's too late. My meter is dead. It didn't even blink at your sarcasm.

[jrhymeammo]

Those replies from GM, Kex and RL shows that they didn't even read what I wrote, or didnt even try to figure out the message.

man o man

[GMichael]

Those replies from GM, Kex and RL shows that they didn't even read what I wrote, or didnt even try to figure out the message.

man o man

We get it.
Do you?

[kexodusc]

Those replies from GM, Kex and RL shows that they didn't even read what I wrote, or didnt even try to figure out the message.

man o man
Your confused my friend, my reply wasn't directed at you or your message, just taking a shot at Wikipedia...I never miss an opportunity to take a shot at Wikipedia.

AAAAAAAAAHHHHH!

[jrhymeammo]

AAAAAAAAAHHHHH!

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! LOL

and dear GM......forget it.

[stevef22]

you guys are crackheads.

[GMichael]

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! LOL

and dear GM......forget it.

Forget what? I don't remember.

[Resident Loser]

you guys are crackheads.

...you're asking us for advice?

jimHJJ(...hey GM, don't get that meter fixed just yet, this may be a long, bumpy ride...)

[GMichael]

..

jimHJJ(...hey GM, don't get that meter fixed just yet, this may be a long, bumpy ride...)

It's sleeping now. Maybe that's why I couldn't remember what I was supposed to forget.

[dave0352]

I was just floating through the forum and wanted to post a quick response to powerlord and the amp upgrage. I noticed that you put a lot of emphasis on the wattage and didn't mention anything about the current or amprage on your AMP. While watts are an idea of how much power you're getting, they're no true gauge as to the actuall power of the amp. Amplifiers are amplifiers because they push amprage. If watts were the ticket, they'd be called wattifiers. Now bare with me, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence! Watts are nothing without current. It's kind of like horse power being nothing without torque. I didn't really look deep into the specs on your Marantz, but I can garuntee you that it has a much higher current output than any of the Pionneers...even if they were the Elites. Not to mention that the Marantz may actually match your speakers better. The best thing for you to do is call the manufacture of your speakers and found out what Amp they had in mind when they designed that line. Buying a top end speaker and a top end amp doesn't garuntee the best sound. I found this out the hard way after I purchased a pair of totem acoustic forests and a primare I30 amp. Now I read reviews in stereophile that recomended them as a good match and they certainly are! But when I talked to Totem, I was told that a Pelinius 9200 would give me the imaging, sound stage, and transparancy they were designed to put forth. He basically told me the Primare (a $2500 two channel amp) was good to break them in!!! Another example, Boston acoustic pairs with Denon because those are the amps they have in mind for their speakers. NAD and Def Tech...the list goes on. If you want your system to truely sing, call the manufacture. That's the great thing about purchasing the 'good stuff'. Manufactures are happy to lend support!