Should I get floor standing fronts?

[Blacknd]

Hey guys,

Just to start off I'm pretty new to better end equiptment and setting up a good audio/video system. I'm building a system and what I have so far is.

Denon AVR-2807
X-box 360 w/HD-DVD Player (will upgrade to a dedicated dvd when the bluray hd-dvd war ends)
Sony DVP-CX995V 400 disc dvd player for the collection
SVS 20-39 PC-Plus sub
SVS SBS-01 5.0 surround speakers
Bluejeans cables
Logitech Harmony 880 Remote

I am soon going to 7.1 but I also listen to music as well, the system is more for home theater than music but I want to eat the cake too. My question is should I get tower speakers to replace the 2 fronts or get 2 more SBS-01 surround speakers? I want to get towers for my cd 2.0 listening but the sound that I have now is perfect for my ears for watching movies and I dont want to ruin the speaker relationship to each other by adding in fronts that wont balance well in relative sound to each other. Am I overthinking it? I have about 1200 to 2000 to spend on the fronts. Thanks for the help in advance. BTW I was looking at Axiom Millenia M80 v2 but they are 4 ohms vs my current 8 ohm setup, is it possible to add a 4 ohm speaker to the 8 ohm setup? And how good are the speakers?

Almost forgot I'm stationed in japan for another year so I wont be able to go listen first :(

[blackraven]

Are you happy with the way your front speakers sound? If so, stick with them. Most high quality amps can handle a 4 ohm load especially if the speakers are efficient. If you were talking about Magnepans, then thats a different story. Your receiver should be rated for 6ohms if I'm not mistaken. If you were to use 4ohm speakers as surround sound then you may run into problems with overheating at loud volumes.

[PeruvianSkies]

Well with that kinda money you certainly can get a decent set of floorstanders for sure....

[Blacknd]

I'm very happy with the way the speakers sound in surround for sure, but the thing is that I like listening to music from a 2.0 source as well and I'm sure a set of tower speakers would be better for the task. I guess what I'm saying is with my current setup its hard to pick out where the speakers are in 5.1, if that makes sense. And I dont want to lose that. I'm looking to put 2 towers in the front for when I just listen to audio but they will be the fronts for the 7.1 system and I am looking for a set that will match well to the SVS SBS-01's, without drowning them or being drowned by them in 7.1. I hope thats more clear to understand what I'm after.

[Dusty Chalk]

Short answer: yes, IMHO. The lower you can set your crossover point, the better, and you can usually go lower with a larger speaker, making a sweeping generalization.

[PeruvianSkies]

Any suggestions on tower speakers at 8 ohms up to $2000? And I did look at the specs for the Denon 2807 it is 8 ohms like I thought.

If I had 2K to spend on speakers right now I'd give a serious look at TOTEM ACOUSTIC, more specifically the STTAF, which goes for around $1500 and is 8ohms. However, their next model up THE HAWK lists closer to 2K, but is 6ohms. These are really great speakers and I have heard all of their current floorstanders with exception of their flagship SHAMAN. Check them out totemacoustic.com

[Blacknd]

Any suggestions on tower speakers at 8 ohms up to $2000? And I did look at the specs for the Denon 2807 it is 8 ohms like I thought.

[basite]

you could try these...

b&w dm 604's,
or Focal chorus 836 V

keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Actually Blacknd....The 2807 handles speakers from 6 to 16 ohms.

You only need 8 to 16ohm speakers if you have a second set of speakers hooked up to the 'B' terminals.

Hope this helps

[kexodusc]

You need to prioritize what you want to accomplish with your next purchase. If cost was no object, I'd like to have towers that matched my speakers, unfortunately for most of us, cost is a big concern. The question we all struggle with is how to best incorporate what you can afford into your existing system.

If you are going to use your new speakers in a 7.1 system more than for 2 channel listening, you definitely are better served getting the best possible match for your existing system. I'm not familiar with the speakers you already have, but generally, 2 more that match the current speakers is the best way to go. A good speaker is good for home theater and music.

Tower speakers have their advantages. If your sub is outmatched by the speakers (up to you) then you may be better off with towers and shutting the sub off altogether for music. In a system with no subwoofer (or a poor sounding sub), the added bass is a real bonus.

In a system with a capable subwoofer, I'd always recommend going with the smaller models at a given price point. By design, smaller speakers with fewer drivers offer many sound advantages. Introducing more woofers and larger cabinets is extremely hard to do without incorporating compromises to the sound. Simple is usually better. For a given price, say, $2000, you'll find a bookshelf model will have higher quality drivers, crossover components, and cabinetry. Higher quality drivers are often easier to work with and should sound better, which can lead to superior design topology over all. You'll generally find that a smaller speaker offer a higher level of sound quality (unless they're unfairly priced) at the expense of some bass extension to a tower speaker.

This is where the subwoofer comes in. A proper sub setup will pick up where the speakers trail off. If the sub can perform at the same level as the speakers in terms of sound quality, you've got the best of both worlds. If you really want the best sound for music without detracting from your home theater experience and your existing sub is up to task, this is the way I'd go. It's a bit more work to setup the sub, and a lot of subs aren't up to the task, but when everything lines up, it's just a better overall integration in my experience. There's a subjective component here, if you're a real bass head, you might prefer to sacrifice some midrange and high frequency refinement for the added bass.

How to use the sub is an entirely different thread. After years of doing what everyone told me and setting my crossover as low as possible, I've finally realized that a slightly higher crossover is preferable for a number of reasons I won't get into right now. Actually, I think it is setting the XO as low as possible, but most people overestimate how low they should be setting their XO's optimally. Room treatment and eq-ing can come into play. It can be quite a task to set the sub up properly. Once you get it though, there's no comparison, IMO. Sometimes it's just easier to go with the towers, which is certainly a valid reason. In my 2 channel rig, I have tower speakers and a sub. The XO is a bit lower than my 7.1 system (all bookshelf speakers), but still higher than the -3dB ability of the tower speakers.

As you can see, there's plenty to consider and I doubt you'll find a universal answer to your question, but hopefully you carefully consider all of your options and pick the solution best for your situation.

[Blacknd]

Actually Blacknd....The 2807 handles speakers from 6 to 16 ohms.

You only need 8 to 16ohm speakers if you have a second set of speakers hooked up to the 'B' terminals.

Hope this helps


hey thanks for that bit of info, opens up a few more options for me.

[kexodusc]

I was thinking that I would get a more full range of sound for audio by using a set of towers than just using the bookshelves and the sub, but thats why I put the post here. In all reality I'm not sure that I'm missing anything soundwise at all, I just thought that maybe I was because most systems have tower fronts that I have seen.
How large is your room? Most decent bookshelves in the price your looking at will have excellent quality bass below 40 Hz. The bass they do have will have good sound quality, might not thump as much as a tower. The other octaves should be much better though. It's never as easy as I'm making it seem, these are generalizations, but they reflect a trend. If your sub is capable, I'd suggest you'd be further ahead getting high quality bookshelf speakers to take care of the mids and highs (better than a tower could) and use your sub for that last ocatave. Most people tend to do this with their towers anyway.

This is what I do. My towers have higher quality Vifa/Scan-speak drivers and much better crossover parts. They cost me more to build than 3 pairs of my bookshelf speakers in my home theater, yet with the sub, the difference overall isn't as big as you'd think.

Of course, there's definitely the cool factor in having towers, and you know better than I how your sub sounds. Go out and listen to yourself, especially vocals and strings, to hear the difference between a $2000 bookshelf and tower. Then make your decision.

[Blacknd]

You need to prioritize what you want to accomplish with your next purchase. If cost was no object, I'd like to have towers that matched my speakers, unfortunately for most of us, cost is a big concern. The question we all struggle with is how to best incorporate what you can afford into your existing system.

If you are going to use your new speakers in a 7.1 system more than for 2 channel listening, you definitely are better served getting the best possible match for your existing system. I'm not familiar with the speakers you already have, but generally, 2 more that match the current speakers is the best way to go. A good speaker is good for home theater and music.

Tower speakers have their advantages. If your sub is outmatched by the speakers (up to you) then you may be better off with towers and shutting the sub off altogether for music. In a system with no subwoofer (or a poor sounding sub), the added bass is a real bonus.

In a system with a capable subwoofer, I'd always recommend going with the smaller models at a given price point. By design, smaller speakers with fewer drivers offer many sound advantages. Introducing more woofers and larger cabinets is extremely hard to do without incorporating compromises to the sound. Simple is usually better. For a given price, say, $2000, you'll find a bookshelf model will have higher quality drivers, crossover components, and cabinetry. Higher quality drivers are often easier to work with and should sound better, which can lead to superior design topology over all. You'll generally find that a smaller speaker offer a higher level of sound quality (unless they're unfairly priced) at the expense of some bass extension to a tower speaker.

This is where the subwoofer comes in. A proper sub setup will pick up where the speakers trail off. If the sub can perform at the same level as the speakers in terms of sound quality, you've got the best of both worlds. If you really want the best sound for music without detracting from your home theater experience and your existing sub is up to task, this is the way I'd go. It's a bit more work to setup the sub, and a lot of subs aren't up to the task, but when everything lines up, it's just a better overall integration in my experience. There's a subjective component here, if you're a real bass head, you might prefer to sacrifice some midrange and high frequency refinement for the added bass.

How to use the sub is an entirely different thread. After years of doing what everyone told me and setting my crossover as low as possible, I've finally realized that a slightly higher crossover is preferable for a number of reasons I won't get into right now. Actually, I think it is setting the XO as low as possible, but most people overestimate how low they should be setting their XO's optimally. Room treatment and eq-ing can come into play. It can be quite a task to set the sub up properly. Once you get it though, there's no comparison, IMO. Sometimes it's just easier to go with the towers, which is certainly a valid reason. In my 2 channel rig, I have tower speakers and a sub. The XO is a bit lower than my 7.1 system (all bookshelf speakers), but still higher than the -3dB ability of the tower speakers.

As you can see, there's plenty to consider and I doubt you'll find a universal answer to your question, but hopefully you carefully consider all of your options and pick the solution best for your situation.


Thats kind of the way I'm looking at things actually, I dont know much about how to setup the crossovers for optimal sound so I just went with suggestions that I read in multiple threads. The sound I have now is great and the sub is more than I will ever need probably,(my wife yells daily at stuff knocked off shelves, I blame the cat :) I was thinking that I would get a more full range of sound for audio by using a set of towers than just using the bookshelves and the sub, but thats why I put the post here. In all reality I'm not sure that I'm missing anything soundwise at all, I just thought that maybe I was because most systems have tower fronts that I have seen.

[Blacknd]

How large is your room? Most decent bookshelves in the price your looking at will have excellent quality bass below 40 Hz. The bass they do have will have good sound quality, might not thump as much as a tower. The other octaves should be much better though. It's never as easy as I'm making it seem, these are generalizations, but they reflect a trend. If your sub is capable, I'd suggest you'd be further ahead getting high quality bookshelf speakers to take care of the mids and highs (better than a tower could) and use your sub for that last ocatave. Most people tend to do this with their towers anyway.

This is what I do. My towers have higher quality Vifa/Scan-speak drivers and much better crossover parts. They cost me more to build than 3 pairs of my bookshelf speakers in my home theater, yet with the sub, the difference overall isn't as big as you'd think.

Of course, there's definitely the cool factor in having towers, and you know better than I how your sub sounds. Go out and listen to yourself, especially vocals and strings, to hear the difference between a $2000 bookshelf and tower. Then make your decision.


The room is in 2 sections in a straight line, living room and dining area, kinda sucks but Im renting a house because I'm stationed in Japan for another year still. The room is 23' front to back 14' side to side where I have it set up and the full area is 35' X 14'. As for the bass I'm using a SVS 20-29 PC-Plus sub which is the best that I have heard besides the SVS PB-12 Ultra/2 that my friend has which is nuts, he put a 6 foot crack in the wall watching Incredibles lol. Like I said I'm new and by no means an expert in any area of HT. I just know what sounds good to me. Have you heard any SVS subs? And if you have do you consider them a good sub? Astetics are important to me, but not at the cost of quality. I would like to see towers but if the sound will be better with bookshelves thats the direction I'm heading. As of right now I can't go listen to them personally because I'm stuck overseas. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to put links in here but here is a link to the sub and speakers, and I'm not advertising for SVS just trying to get some help with my setup. By the way Thank you to all of you guys for helping me try to learn about speakers and setup's maybe in a year or so I can help someone else lol.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-plpow2.cfm
http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-sbs01.cfm

[kexodusc]

The room is in 2 sections in a straight line, living room and dining area, kinda sucks but Im renting a house because I'm stationed in Japan for another year still. The room is 23' front to back 14' side to side where I have it set up and the full area is 35' X 14'. As for the bass I'm using a SVS 20-29 PC-Plus sub which is the best that I have heard besides the SVS PB-12 Ultra/2 that my friend has which is nuts, he put a 6 foot crack in the wall watching Incredibles lol. Like I said I'm new and by no means an expert in any area of HT. I just know what sounds good to me. Have you heard any SVS subs? And if you have do you consider them a good sub? Astetics are important to me, but not at the cost of quality. I would like to see towers but if the sound will be better with bookshelves thats the direction I'm heading. As of right now I can't go listen to them personally because I'm stuck overseas. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to put links in here but here is a link to the sub and speakers, and I'm not advertising for SVS just trying to get some help with my setup. By the way Thank you to all of you guys for helping me try to learn about speakers and setup's maybe in a year or so I can help someone else lol.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-plpow2.cfm
http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-sbs01.cfm

You have a very popular sub, I don't recall the exact model SVS subs I have heard, but one was a 12" box sub, the other a cylinder. They seemed up to the task to me. Loud and low, fun to watch Jurassic Park with. Your room is rather large - what you should do is start listening to music with low, deep bass to see how your sub sounds - does it sound too "exaggerated" and "boomy" on low bass notes, or are they very tight and defined? Maybe do a search on this site for test-tones to see what kind of in room response you're really getting and certain frequencies. A lot of subs are excellent for home theater - low, deep bass sounds at high volumes that shake the house - for music, we look for something a bit more refined.

I think your sub is one of the more versatile units at its price point, if I read correctly, the port can be blocked - this configuration improves musicality. Play around with it, and see if it's good enough for your music listening purposes. If it is, I would suggest using it, and going with the speaker that best handles mids and highs. The reason I say bookshelf speakers is simply so you aren't paying for bass capabilities that are going to be (best) handled by your sub anyway - invest in the rest of spectrum. You might find that the answer is still towers, or you might not like the way your sub blends with smaller speakers. Won't know until you try.
If you did a search on threads here with the keywords bookshelf, tower, floorstander, etc, I'm sure you'd find dozens of discussions rehashing this concept.

Your speakers I'm not familiar with. However, it's safe to say a $2000 speaker is a going to smoke them. That's quite a jump for you. Your sub is the highest quality component in your system by far. I wouldn't rush into towers. What you should do is demo as many as you can in person, side by side in the same room (ideally your room) to get a feel. Since you're overseas that might be difficult.
I'm sure you could buy anything and be very happy with what the company sent you - the question is if it's the best sounding speaker to your ears. Only way to know that is to demo them yourself.

Just curious as to how you arrived at your budget for this purchase? I own the Axiom M3Ti's, not a bad speaker for the money - the larger Axiom's are better at louder volumes and they're a competitive brand for sure. But you're talking about a really competitive price range with lots of excellent speakers (some already mentioned). If I was in your position, I'd be shopping for weeks, sampling as much as I can and taking notes (it's half the fun). Maybe what you could do is buy another pair of matching SVS speakers to round off your 7.1 system and then buy your stereo speakers?

You generally don't want to mismatch the front mains with the center and surround speakers - this can be extremely annoying. It points out the weakest link, makes voices sound "different" as they pan across the room - drives me nuts. I can appreciate the desire to keep the speaker count low though - I have a dozen or so pairs now in my house - wife's getting fed up.

[Blacknd]

well thanks for all the help guys, I guess my decision is to wait it out until I get back to the states so I can hear speakers for myself. The svs is rockin anyways. Guess I'll get a new tv lol.

thanks for all the help it was much appreciated and believe it or not I learned a few things along the way

[westcott]

well thanks for all the help guys, I guess my decision is to wait it out until I get back to the states so I can hear speakers for myself. The svs is rockin anyways. Guess I'll get a new tv lol.

thanks for all the help it was much appreciated and believe it or not I learned a few things along the way

I would get Sonys MegaChanger for CDs and get a better DVD player. Panasonic S97 or S77 comes to mind for HDMI.

Everything else looks good although I tend to wait out fomat wars. You pay a premium for it.

Floorstanding speaker, properly placed, will give superior audio when compared to bookshelf or in wall speakers.

[Blacknd]

I would get Sonys MegaChanger for CDs and get a better DVD player. Panasonic S97 or S77 comes to mind for HDMI.

Everything else looks good although I tend to wait out fomat wars. You pay a premium for it.

Floorstanding speaker, properly placed, will give superior audio when compared to bookshelf or in wall speakers.


I'm currently using the Sony DVP-CX995V for CD's it seems to do the job pretty well and its hooked up by hdmi although I havent hooked up the analog 6 channel sacd cables from it to the reciever yet to try out super audio, any thought's on that model or should I get a stand alone cd player? And I'm gonna get towers but I'm gonna wait until I get back to the state's to hear some for myself because I'll probably end up replacing the front 3 for matching the imaging, that seems to be the way most people get the best results from what I've read. As for the dvd player I'm gonna wait. I just cant get the thought out of my head that which ever one I pick (blu-ray or hd-dvd) the market will go the opposite way. And thanks for the advice as always

[westcott]

I'm currently using the Sony DVP-CX995V for CD's it seems to do the job pretty well and its hooked up by hdmi although I havent hooked up the analog 6 channel sacd cables from it to the reciever yet to try out super audio, any thought's on that model or should I get a stand alone cd player? And I'm gonna get towers but I'm gonna wait until I get back to the state's to hear some for myself because I'll probably end up replacing the front 3 for matching the imaging, that seems to be the way most people get the best results from what I've read. As for the dvd player I'm gonna wait. I just cant get the thought out of my head that which ever one I pick (blu-ray or hd-dvd) the market will go the opposite way. And thanks for the advice as always

Most of us are using digital connections for audio now a days. With this in mind, a CD player is a CD player is a CD player, as long as it is fairly relaible. Sound quality wil be indistinguishable othewise. Now, if you are an analog freak, that is a different can of worms and I do not care to get into a discussion on analog. It seems you always get someone looking for a subjective arguement. Your current Sony is just fine for CD's. Now, for standard DVD's, it is not very good compared to other models in its price range or less. The Panasonics I suggested are some of the best bang for buck DVD players on the market for HDMI connections. Oppo has released a new model but I have not seen a credible review of it so I am hesitant to recommend it just yet. That may change but for now, their older model is great if you have a DVI display. And before someone tells you they are the same, it is not true. HDMI is capable of handling 10 and 12 bit RGB color depth signals and DVI is limited to 8 bit. It is quite noticeable as contouring artifacts on some digital displays.

I think you have a good game plan and waiting on HD DVD and BlueRay is a wise move. They will only get cheaper and on a display around 50 inches, 1080p just does not have a good price\performance ratio at this time.

Good Luck and keep us posted. We want to hear how your speaker auditions go. That is the funniest part in the whole process, IMO.

[PeruvianSkies]

It seems you always get someone looking for a subjective arguement. IMO.

This is when people like Woochifer chime in with their "opinions".

[westcott]

This is when people like Woochifer chime in with their "opinions".

Now, if you really want me to stir the pot, I will tell you that even though you have a separate amp, if it only has one plug for the wall, it is only putting out a max of around 800 watts. No matter what the mfg says or how many "300 watt channels" you bought.

Why? Because most people have a 15 or maybe a 20 amp circuit that it is plugged into. VERY few exceptions unless your amp acutally has two heavy duty plugs and they are connected to two DEDICATED circuits. NOT just two plugs.

The following is an exerpt from Audioholics. I will provide a link to the whole article for those who want more details. But, as you will see, a good receiver is already hitting the limits of what you can pull from the wall under present UL and CSA approval.

References:

Household Line: 120V, 15A can deliver max continuous power of (120 x 15) = 1800 watts (assuming no derating as per UL)


Amplifier Efficiency:

Typical Linear (A/B) Amplifier is between 40-50%.

Rail switching amps such as Class G/H can be as high as 65%

Switching amps (Class D) can see up to 90% real world efficiency assuming a properly designed power supply is utilized.


Note: These estimates assume the amp is under full load and that the power supply transformer doesn't overload, operates in the linear VA curve, and maintains regulation.


Let's focus on linear amps for the moment, since these are currently the most popular type tested and purchased by home theater consumer folks.


Now take our 1800 watt max power from the wall and multiply it by our amp efficiency (let's choose 45%) and we get: 1800 x .45 = 810 watts . This is the max power a typical linear A/B amp can deliver on a continuous basis from a 120V, 15A household line - assuming, of course, the amplifier's power supply can consume the entire 1800 watts of power from the line without causing the power transformer to overheat or go into thermal meltdown and likely trip the breaker.


By now folks from the ACD camp are saying, - well let's use a 20A line instead! That only gets the designer 4 more amps - or 2.6A with a normal power amp! What they fail to realize is most UL compliant consumer electrical devices utilizing the IEC320 receptacle, limit the max current consumption to less than 15A to prevent arcing which can cause a fire, death or serious injury (not to mention voiding your liability insurance). Unless the amp has a specialized connector on the back, or two independent power cords, it is likely it will be limited to 15A continuous consumption for safety's sake. We shall consider those type of devices as an outlier (not typical) and continue on with the more typical consumer devices reviewed and purchased for our home theater systems.


As a side note, other limitations include the AC wall outlet and breaker in the fuse box as well as the potential for 14GA wire run to the AC socket - 12GA wire has to be used for a legitimate 20A breaker.


As we already established, our linear amp best case continuous power delivery is limited to around 810 watts.


What does this give us under the ACD test?


5 Channels Driven: 810 / 5 = 162 watts per channel

7 Channels Driven: 810 / 7 = 116 watts per channel


Note: This doesn't factor in any additional losses due to processing, and other active devices in a receiver.





Here is the link that reduces the power capabilities even further but I thought this would get everyone mad enough at me!!!! Now, I will say that separate amps can produce a cleaner sound and provide more available power to respond to large dynamic swings, but it usually robs Paul to pay Peter, to do so since rarely is the demand on all the channels being asked to drive being used at the same time.

All Channels Driven Falacy (http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-all-channels-driven-acd-amplifier-test)

[kexodusc]

Most of us are using digital connections for audio now a days. With this in mind, a CD player is a CD player is a CD player, as long as it is fairly relaible. Sound quality wil be indistinguishable othewise..

This is consistent with my listenings. My Arcam sounds better via the analog route which I attribute to the better DAC, but when I use the digital line on my cheap Yamaha changer and let the newer DAC in my receiver handle a digital signal, it's damn hard to hear much of a difference. It think it still sounds a bit better, but it's much harder to tell.

If nothing else, it suggests the gains from a better CD player can be extremely expensive compared to other upgrade options for many.

[Blacknd]

Wow, you guys blow my mind. Just when I think I'm starting to learn to ride the bull you guys throw in stuff that I never even fathomed. The funny part is in Japan its not 110 for a wall socket its 100 which got me thinking that what if that minor power difference can affect my audio and video. Guess I'll find out in a year or so when I can get my equiptment hooked up to some American electricity.