Speaker wire makes a huge difference!!!!!! [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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Bluforever
03-08-2007, 12:40 PM
I was the guy who upgraded from a HTIB to yamaha's ns-777, 555, 444(center) -

I figured when I swapped out the receiver I could just use the existing wire (which was 20g, maybe even smaller) which came with the system, and not have to rerun the cables.

I cam across a decent deal - $35 retail (per 50ft) marked down to 10$. So I jumped on it for a total of 150ft for $30.

I switched out to silver plated 16g studio wire, AND OMFG!!!! Complete night and day differnce.

If you havent splurged yet on good wire - check it out.

There may be differences between brands I dont know. I bought $30 (150 ft) stuff - so you may not need to spend 100's for the extra performance.

Again - the 100$ per 50ft may work better, I dont know. But I doubt it would improve it much further.

Feanor
03-08-2007, 01:08 PM
I was the guy who upgraded from a HTIB to yamaha's ns-777, 555, 444(center) -

I figured when I swapped out the receiver I could just use the existing wire (which was 20g, maybe even smaller) which came with the system, and not have to rerun the cables.

I cam across a decent deal - $35 retail (per 50ft) marked down to 10$. So I jumped on it for a total of 150ft for $30.

I switched out to silver plated 16g studio wire, AND OMFG!!!! Complete night and day differnce.

If you havent splurged yet on good wire - check it out.

There may be differences between brands I dont know. I bought $30 (150 ft) stuff - so you may not need to spend 100's for the extra performance.

Again - the 100$ per 50ft may work better, I dont know. But I doubt it would improve it much further.

The value of the high-priced $1000 (or $10,000) cable is debateable. But there is no debate around 20ga. wire -- it's useless and should never be used. I would suggest at least 16ga. regardless of length of run, preferably 14ga.

What about those medium price cables, i.e. $200 - 500 per 6' pair? Given 'em a try if you like: you might notice some improvement depending on the speaker + amplfier combination.

Resident Loser
03-08-2007, 01:16 PM
I was the guy who upgraded from a HTIB to yamaha's ns-777, 555, 444(center) -

I figured when I swapped out the receiver I could just use the existing wire (which was 20g, maybe even smaller) which came with the system, and not have to rerun the cables.

I cam across a decent deal - $35 retail (per 50ft) marked down to 10$. So I jumped on it for a total of 150ft for $30.

I switched out to silver plated 16g studio wire, AND OMFG!!!! Complete night and day differnce.

If you havent splurged yet on good wire - check it out.

There may be differences between brands I dont know. I bought $30 (150 ft) stuff - so you may not need to spend 100's for the extra performance.

Again - the 100$ per 50ft may work better, I dont know. But I doubt it would improve it much further.

...these is oranges....this is 20ga., this is 16ga. Difference? Probably...the true test is, wiring of similar length and gauge....BAMPPP!!! Note the last word...

Some folks in the wire crowd, claim that silver-plated wires deserve a big thumbs-down...BTW are they actually "silver" as in the element Ag or just "tinned" which allows for easier soldering compared to bare copper?

Pricing may be indicative...

jimHJJ(...caveat emptor...)

Bluforever
03-08-2007, 01:20 PM
Im not debating the silver is better or worse thing. I guess Im saying the gauge is what I believed to make a huge difference.

Excuse my ignorance, Im still learning!

basite
03-08-2007, 01:30 PM
I do have to say that using thicker wires makes a difference though...
I just doubled my cable (I used the same cable, but instead of using one per speaker, I now use one per pole. which makes it 8mm˛ of speaker cable, per pole, per side (4cables of 2m lenght)) and it definately made a difference, both in lows as in clarity...

Better wire of course, will be better than mine. I payed $40 for 6 meters of cable, I think that paying $100-$150 for speaker cable is reasonable, but I really don't see the point in buying $5k speaker cable.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

GMichael
03-08-2007, 01:56 PM
Huge difference between 20ga and 16ga in sound. The 20ga will make your music sound thin and lifeless.
I found a very small difference when going from 16ga to 12ga. But the price wasn't bad so I made the switch.

Carl Reid
03-08-2007, 02:12 PM
Pure Nonsense... Speaker wire makes no difference....

I saved 60 of those little bread bag ties and joined them together, 30 each... and use them as speaker wire and the sound is fantastic....




Ok seriously, different gauge makes a difference.... But the bigger debate with speaker wire is whether using more expensive wire of the same gauge makes a 'significant' difference...

Dusty Chalk
03-08-2007, 02:43 PM
Kind of eye-opening, innit? Welcome to the believers in the cables-make-a-difference club.

GMichael
03-08-2007, 02:57 PM
Kind of eye-opening, innit? Welcome to the believers in the cables-make-a-difference club.

Put me down for the maybe club. But I don't think my speakers can tell.

Florian
03-08-2007, 03:23 PM
Put me down for the maybe club. But I don't think my speakers can tell.

I'll join the maybe club too

Carl Reid
03-08-2007, 03:40 PM
This review from Soundstage for Atelier First Horn Speakers is why I absolutely refuse to become obsessed with speaker wire.... Fear of becoming like this reviewer:


Although the First Horns’ Cardas connectors work with virtually any speaker cable, it seemed goofy to use $2000 cables with $699 speakers, so I used some of the lower-priced cables in my collection. Thus, most of my listening was done with Blue Marble Audio’s $795 speaker cable, a neutral-sounding cable that has sounded good with a variety of speakers.

Goofy??? Just Goofy to use $2k cables on a $700 speaker? But $800 cables on a $700 speaker is perfectly reasonable???? WTF????

audio_dude
03-08-2007, 03:58 PM
some people are just crazy... I think its the gauge that makes the most difference.

Right now i'm using a heavy duty extension cable chopped up. I lopped of the ends, but it in half and stripped the ends, i think its about 14 gauge, maybe 12... but its solid copper and the wires are all individually wrapped so no crosstalk.

jrhymeammo
03-08-2007, 06:52 PM
Not sure what gauge my Clearview wires are, and I honestly dont care cuz they sound great in my setting.

PeruvianSkies
03-08-2007, 07:44 PM
Well, here are my thoughts....

I first used 14 and 16g Monster Cable for my 2nd pair of PSB speakers that I owned, then I upgraded to AudioQuest GR-8's and the difference was noticeable, but still lacking. Then I upgraded to the PS Audio Xstreams, which are the most rediculously thick cables on the market and I finally found what I was missing. The thicker cable seemed to bring more bass through. I am not saying that the cables are the cause for a difference in sound, they are responsible for bringing the signal accurately through and these were the first cables to actually bring through more low end presence, but also good performance all around.

Often people state that it's the cables that are the 'cause' of the difference, when in fact it's the equipment all along, but you do need good cables to get that connection made.

Bluforever
03-09-2007, 04:36 AM
For **** and giggles I decided to hook up the 20g on the left speaker and the 16g on the right. Then I played some test tones from a calibration CD I just picked up.

Peruvian skies hit the nail on the head. With 20g, the mids and lows were definitely flat and lacking. The higher gauge helped them fill out much more.

Since the yamahas were only $320 for rears and $400 for the mains, I cant see spending $100 per cable per speaker. I am a college kid on a budget, with 2 kids and a full time student wife as well.

If your like me, and have to stick to a certain budget - there is a huge difference between the standard crap they give you in a HTIB - and for $30 (hardly an expense given the improvement) more - you can get a huge improvement.

Ive always been a videophile, and up to this point, that has been the major parts of my investment. I kind of thought speaker wire was like component or hdmi cables - a certain grade of cable will give the best possible performance on short distances.

Speaker wire is much different, and I experienced it first hand. Just in case you get any other noobs like me popping up - or sitting on the fence about a speaker wire upgrade - I say go for it. Even budget buyers like myself can tell a huge difference. Even my non audio/video phile wife can tell.

markw
03-09-2007, 04:50 AM
Peruvian skies hit the nail on the head. With 20g, the mids and lows were definitely flat and lacking. The higher gauge helped them fill out much more.Wire gauge is non-intuitive. As the gauge number goes lower, the wire gets thicker. i.e. 12 gauge is thicker than 24 gauge. ...much thicker.

And, just to add to the confusion, if you double up wires of the same gauge, you effectively drop three gauges. i.e. if you double up a 16 gauge wires, you effectively have made a 13 gauge wire.

GMichael
03-09-2007, 06:23 AM
I'll join the maybe club too

OK, welcome to the club. But two things....

I would think that if anyone's speakers could tell the difference it would be yours.
Are you using jumper cables? That new amp of yours looks like it would melt my 12ga wire.

Florian
03-09-2007, 07:30 AM
OK, welcome to the club. But two things....

I would think that if anyone's speakers could tell the difference it would be yours.
Are you using jumper cables? That new amp of yours looks like it would melt my 12ga wire.

My speakers sure do that, but they are really not "High End". There is no Voodoo or magic in my speaker. Its all technology. It even contains a programm that lets you adjust the cables impedance for best matching. I believe its not down to the cable, but the impedance matching of the input and outputs and drive matching incase of active use.

-Flo

JohnMichael
03-09-2007, 07:46 AM
Speaker cables do make a difference. I prefer solid core, single strand and minimal dielectric for cables and interconnects. Some of what people hear as more fullness I hear as distortion. Strand interaction to me makes things fuzzy sounding.

GMichael
03-09-2007, 07:54 AM
My speakers sure do that, but they are really not "High End". There is no Voodoo or magic in my speaker. Its all technology. It even contains a programm that lets you adjust the cables impedance for best matching. I believe its not down to the cable, but the impedance matching of the input and outputs and drive matching incase of active use.

-Flo

Thanks Flo,

This really tells me why some people hear a difference more than others. It has more to do with matching them to the speakers. Or in your case, having speakers that can be adjusted to match the cables being used.

Oh, and if your speakers are not "high end". Then what are?

Florian
03-09-2007, 12:39 PM
Thanks Flo,

This really tells me why some people hear a difference more than others. It has more to do with matching them to the speakers. Or in your case, having speakers that can be adjusted to match the cables being used.

Oh, and if your speakers are not "high end". Then what are?

I think they are just "speakers" but none of this voodoo crap. They dont believe in a wooden construction, so they used cast iron. They found too many flaws in a passive design, so they used an active one etc.... I like products that have a real technical advantage and dont come with voodoo packages or "magic sound" when you use a rare african tree.

:-)

Woochifer
03-09-2007, 01:09 PM
FWIW, the only published speaker wire test I'm aware of that reliably demonstrated differences under blind conditions was a test that Stereo Review conducted decades ago where subjects clearly differentiated between a 24-gauge speaker wire and a group of other thicker cables. But, that same test found that subjects could not reliably differentiate between a generic 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster Cable.

But, when conducting any speaker wire comparison, you need to make at least some effort to control the sight biases, because it's been proven time and again that observations made when people can see the changes made to the equipment and cabling do not always correspond to the observations made when they don't know what changes were made. At audio shows, John Dunlavy and McIntosh reps used to demonstrate the effect of sight bias by pretending to switch out the speaker cables or interconnects, and let listeners gush on about how huge a difference they heard when in fact nothing had been switched out. I've done similar bits of foolery where I would pretend to switch out cabling or components, and friends of mine would observe "night and day" differences when nothing had actually changed between listenings. I've observed subtle differences between speaker wires in blind listenings, but they are nowhere near the magnitude of difference that a lot of people attribute to the cabling. IMO, the investment in megabuck cabling is better spent in more relevant areas like improving room acoustics.

royphil345
03-09-2007, 07:57 PM
I believe that. I heard a distinct difference moving up from 16 to 12 gauge. I would probably tend to buy 12 gauge high-purity copper before springing for 16 gauge silver-plated though.

I've experimented with quite a bit of wire over the years, although nothing too pricey. I find solid wires not to my liking. Possibly more accurate and just too revealing of weaknesses in my system / room acoustics. I've found the Monster Cable style braiding in most 12 gauge cables being sold clouds things up a bit to my ear. I found some finely stranded 12 gauge cables without the braiding and I've been satisfied with them for awhile now...

superdougiefreshness
03-09-2007, 09:20 PM
Wire gauge is non-intuitive. As the gauge number goes lower, the wire gets thicker. i.e. 12 gauge is thicker than 24 gauge. ...much thicker.

And, just to add to the confusion, if you double up wires of the same gauge, you effectively drop three gauges. i.e. if you double up a 16 gauge wires, you effectively have made a 13 gauge wire.

What happens if I double up on my 12 gauge does it make them 4g or what ? Also, what happens if I were to run two cables from each of the possitive outs A-B on my receiver and also two from the negative outs A-B to only one pos and neg on a speaker would this drop my Ohms......or would I blow a speaker or what ? Does impedence suffer or change with using both outputs from the receiver to one input on a speaker.........do we get twice the power to the drivers and is this safe.......????
I know thats strange; and I would never do some of this with my good stuff but maybe it would be interesting to try this with throw out equipment to see what might happen......
Later
Doug :cornut:

royphil345
03-09-2007, 09:47 PM
No... You wouldn't get any more power using the A and B speaker outputs. Resistance is added when they're both selected at the same time, in order to prevent damage to the receiver. A and B speakers share the same power though.

According to markw's rule, doubling a 12 gauge wire would give you the equivalent of a 9 gauge wire. Sounds right to me...

Dusty Chalk
03-09-2007, 09:51 PM
No, it doesn't double the power, but it plays with the impedance -- but only of the cables, which are relatively small compared to the speakers.

I think what he's saying if you double up on 12 gauge, you get 9 gauge. And using runs from different terminals is the same as doubling up on them, although they may be out of different transformers from the perspective of the amp. In which case, it won't be the same as doubling up on them, but I would still pay attention to what the manufacturer recommends. For example, in the old days, the highest end receivers usually had A B & C speaker outs, but no position for A+B+C, because it couldn't drive all three at once.

superdougiefreshness
03-09-2007, 10:27 PM
No, it doesn't double the power, but it plays with the impedance -- but only of the cables, which are relatively small compared to the speakers.

I think what he's saying if you double up on 12 gauge, you get 9 gauge. And using runs from different terminals is the same as doubling up on them, although they may be out of different transformers from the perspective of the amp. In which case, it won't be the same as doubling up on them, but I would still pay attention to what the manufacturer recommends. For example, in the old days, the highest end receivers usually had A B & C speaker outs, but no position for A+B+C, because it couldn't drive all three at once.

Will I damage my speakers playing both right receiver channels into the right speaker if it is not Bi amplified, and what effect can I expect from such an endeavor ?

None related question:
If I am doubling up on speaker cables what may I experience?
Thanks
Very interesting topic indeed.
Later
Doug :out:

royphil345
03-09-2007, 11:15 PM
I think... Connecting that way would just null out the added resistance on each output and wouldn't sound much different or damage anything. I stress... I think... Don't blame me... LOL

If you used the A and B outputs to biwire the highs and lows of a biwirable speaker, you'd probably get reduced volume at a given setting of the volume control. The impedance would be increased because the A or B speakers wouldn't have another speaker in the circuit operating in the same frequency range. Might this be a way to safely hook up bi-wirable 4 ohm speakers to a receiver recommended for 8 ohm speakers only?


Doubling the speaker wires could maybe open up the sound a little more... I believe I've also noticed a tonal effect when cables use 2 separate larger conductors. Might be for the better or worse on your system... Try it and let us know... Not sure if I'd do the A and B thing...

Feanor
03-10-2007, 04:06 AM
FWIW, the only published speaker wire test I'm aware of that reliably demonstrated differences under blind conditions was a test that Stereo Review conducted decades ago where subjects clearly differentiated between a 24-gauge speaker wire and a group of other thicker cables. But, that same test found that subjects could not reliably differentiate between a generic 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster Cable.

... I've observed subtle differences between speaker wires in blind listenings, but they are nowhere near the magnitude of difference that a lot of people attribute to the cabling. IMO, the investment in megabuck cabling is better spent in more relevant areas like improving room acoustics.

I though I heard a subtle difference when I went from 8' of 12 ga. Rat Shack to 9' of Nortdost Flatline Gold. But later I went from the Nordost to 7' of Monster bi-wire 14 ga. and heard no difference. After that I went to 3' of the Monster, (driven by monoblocks with longer, XLR interconnects), and once again heard nadda bit of difference.

I totally agree: if you've got a grand or two to play with, you typically away smarter spending it on other components or room treatments.

audio_dude
03-10-2007, 11:07 AM
Yeah, i was wondering about that last question too, my next pair of speakers will probably be bi wireable, but they would be 4 ohm i think (apogee centaurs or Von Schweikert VR-2)

can i wire up A and B?

E-Stat
03-10-2007, 11:23 AM
I switched out to silver plated 16g studio wire, AND OMFG!!!! Complete night and day differnce.
As others have indicated, the lower resistance of 12 or 14 gauge cable is advantageous over toy wire. Tight connections are important as well. Untinned wire tends to oxidize over time and takes on a greenish-blackish hue. Whenever the wire loses its bright luster, throw it away and get some more stuff. I use generic Philips branded 14 gauge speaker wire in the vintage Double Advent system.

My electrostats, however, are a different beast. Because of their extremely low impedance at low frequencies, they require more than low resistance. The higher inductance of zip cord rolls off the top in the audible range. It is for that reason I use ultra low inductance JPS Labs cables with them.

rw

superdougiefreshness
03-10-2007, 03:21 PM
I am going with my jumper cables and Sears Die hard in line after the preamp to see if I can improve resolution .....LOL

:cornut: