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icarus
02-14-2007, 09:21 PM
With it being nearly a month since my last rant (politcs in music), it's time I put one down for this month. Todays rant is all about high end audio. With an increasing amount of people having large amounts of disposable income, they are willing to spend money on the finer things in life, the Porsche's, the penthouse suite, hundreds of dollars on wine, the 60" TV. They cover all of there senses with the finest they can get, they truly apreciate quality and are willing to spend money on it. But quite often they over look the audio side of it. As they enjoy their expensive furniture, booze, ect, they turn on their $1000 home theatre in a box, that they beleive is a decent, if not good sounding system. Now its not their fault that they beleive that what you can get at the future shops, and circuit city is high end audio, it's just that they are uneducated in the world of audio.

When they enter into these home theatre stores, all they see are the cheap "cookie Cutter" electronics such as the Yamaha's the Sony's and the Bose. On paper they look great but after a short audition it quickly reveals what they are cheap. With high frequencies fighting it out with booming one note bass, and the mids are vague and un recognisable.

High end audio comes at a dear price, because, like a great bottle of wine, it takes a lot of time research and developement to produce products of such great caliber. They are perfectly crafted and transcend the everyday audio to the orgasmic experience like no other.

Now high end audio is still doing pretty well thanks to the numerous amount of support from people like us on this forum. But the high end brands from Rotel, to Mark Levinson, to Halcro, are unmistakably great products but they lack the retail representation that other brands like Harmon Kardon, Polk, Bose, and Paradigm(don't get me wrong Paradigm are pretty darn good im just trying to make a point).

now the industry is taking steps to move into the right direction having some of these box stores starting to carry decent products like the the new Magnolia section in Best Buy. But they still lack the knowledge that these mom and pop shops will have about their products. Odds are that even though these stores now carry decent electronics its still a long ways off (if ever) that these stores will start to have small high end boutiques within their stores that would carry such brands as Focal, Sonus Faber, B&W, Hovland, Electrompaniet and many other amazing brands.

Is there a way to educate the general public about the advantages and the shear amazement of the high end audio world. It may be a dream to bring the publics attention to the Elacs, Martin Logans, and classe's, but hey thats what dreams are for.

Florian
02-15-2007, 04:27 AM
Is there a way to educate the general public about the advantages and the shear amazement of the high end audio world

Does the general public want to be educated, or would they rather rant on those who have High End Systems and defend themselves by calling the others arrogant snobs because they either dont understand the obsession, quality or experience or dont have/want the disposable income to go to the next level.

Interesting topic, i will lay low on this one tough.

GMichael
02-15-2007, 05:47 AM
Does the general public want to be educated, or would they rather rant on those who have High End Systems and defend themselves by calling the others arrogant snobs because they either dont understand the obsession, quality or experience or dont have/want the disposable income to go to the next level.

Interesting topic, i will lay low on this one tough.

Bose rules! Anything else is just a crappy substitute.

For those of you who do not know, this was a joke. No flames please. :ciappa:

Resident Loser
02-15-2007, 05:48 AM
Does the general public want to be educated, or would they rather rant on those who have High End Systems and defend themselves by calling the others arrogant snobs because they either dont understand the obsession, quality or experience or dont have/want the disposable income to go to the next level...

...are you sure you don't have an analog source...it sure sounds like your record's stuck...record's stuck...record's stuck...record's stuck...

Way back when you were still Lord Magnepan and waxing poetic about that brand of loudspeaker in your oh so charming manner, there was a member whose moniker was Eyespy...probably predates you actually...

By all accounts he had a really tweaked-out system, soup-to-nuts, including ridiculously priced cables and interconnects...never came across as a blowhard, in fact he would oftimes repeat the mantra of diminishing returns, saying the difference between his gear and the average system wasn't all that great...it was incremental and way out of whack from a cost vs. performance POV...No one, other than his nemesis JR, ever ever took him to task...Why might that have been? He never wore his system on his sleeve, never put anyone or their gear down and in fact pretty much questioned the validty of the whole high-end myth...

And for the last time, no one says word one to you because of what you own, or due to envy or jealousy, or due to lack of understanding any "obsession"...

The only "education" you are providing (since you seem to think you are performing some sort of public service) is the reinforcement of the notion that the high-end is for self-absorbed, arrogant snobs...It ain't what you say, it's how you say it...

jimHJJ(...and until you get the concept, you will remain clueless...)

Resident Loser
02-15-2007, 06:23 AM
...flyin' way too close to the sun again...


...but they lack the retail representation that other brands like...

Are you really that naive? The high-end manufacturers purposely limit distributorship...The high prices and commensurate mystique associated with them would disolve like melted wax in price-cutting competition otherwise...

Am I saying there is no value in high-end stuff? No, however, while some of the stuff may be hand built and with mil-spec or better components (early Levinson comes to mind) a great deal of it is nearly as mass produced as the names you've mentioned...Using off the shelf components, particularly in the case of CD transports where there are I believe two, maybe three hardware suppliers and offshore sourced miscellany, many mfrs. have simply jumped on the bandwagon...In some cases, as in the case of Tara, resorting to what seems to have been out and out fraudulent label removal...

When you get into the whole HE or HT stuff, the average Joe Six-pack couldn't give a r@t$ A$$...They want the sonic equivalent of a toaster, a turn-key system...Those who actually do embrace it have been sold a bill-of-goods and are convinced they can have what Spielberg and other moguls have...trickle-down effect, just like Arnold and his Hummvee spawning the SUV craze...

The mystique fostered by: rarity, pricing (cuz everyone knows if it costs more it must be better, right?), the jargon, and other assorted knee-deep BS is really what keeps the market alive...

jimHJJ(...not to mention that oft dismissed snob appeal factor...)

Bernd
02-15-2007, 06:37 AM
I don't think that it has anything to do with "educating the public". It is a hobby that can sometimes turn into a passionate interest. I happen to like music and good quality audio equipment on which to listen to it. I could have easy ended up liking music and nice cars. Many of my friends or customers have absolutly no interest in high quality music reproduction, own a budget system, but drive a sinfully expensive car that gets attended to regurlarly. I know these cars are out there, but do not interest me. And the same will hold true with a great system to them.

Nobody can be educated to what they will like. Most consumers just want a standard system to listen to their tunes as background noise. I am well aware of the diminishing returns, but to me chassing that elusive perfect reproduction is what is exciting, but never at the expense of the music. That always comes first.

Peace

Bernd:16:

Feanor
02-15-2007, 07:45 AM
... Todays rant is all about high end audio. With an increasing amount of people having large amounts of disposable income, they are willing to spend money on the finer things in life, the Porsche's, the penthouse suite, hundreds of dollars on wine, the 60" TV. They cover all of there senses with the finest they can get, they truly apreciate quality and are willing to spend money on it. But quite often they over look the audio side of it. As they enjoy their expensive furniture, booze, ect, they turn on their $1000 home theatre in a box, that they beleive is a decent, if not good sounding system. Now its not their fault that they beleive that what you can get at the future shops, and circuit city is high end audio, it's just that they are uneducated in the world of audio.

When they enter into these home theatre stores, all they see are the cheap "cookie Cutter" electronics such as the Yamaha's the Sony's and the Bose. On paper they look great but after a short audition it quickly reveals what they are cheap. With high frequencies fighting it out with booming one note bass, and the mids are vague and un recognisable.
...
Is there a way to educate the general public about the advantages and the shear amazement of the high end audio world. It may be a dream to bring the publics attention to the Elacs, Martin Logans, and classe's, but hey thats what dreams are for.

My interest has wax and waned over a 35 year period. Personal high points were '71 - '85 and '02 - present. And I've seen popular trends: the high point of public interest in "Hi-Fi" was the '70s and early '80s (approximately). A lot of it had to do with marketing, (especially of Japaneses solid state electronics and "east coast" speakers). But notice this: not much was happening in TV and video in that interval. Beta and VHS only took off in the '80s, and when that happend the marketers turned their attention to flogging that stuff instead of hifi to the general public; even the advent CD didn't sustain hifI's mass popularity. Today of course, it "home theatre" that has the most appeal to the masses, even so the emphasis is on HD TV. Before and since the '70-'85 interval, true hifi has been the realm of hobbiests primarily.

The ultra-high prices of high-end equipment is, in itself, a reaction to narrowing of the true hifi market, as well as to the difficulty building of high-grade / low-medium cost equipment North America and Europe. Basically if you want to make a lot of profit making and/or selling hobbiest hifi stuff, you have to charge a lot of money for it. Granted, there are vendors who have bucked this trend with some success.

No, don't expect that audiophilia will ever have a broad appeal to the masses; in fact it never really did even during its popular heyday. And it's not entirely lamentable either. Quality is rarely enhanced when product is sold to the masses, ('70s solid state!?!). The most one can hope for is that prices are lowered a bit. But speaking of decent quality and reasonable price, keep an eye on Chinese makers for this combo; as prosperity spreads in China, their domestic market has the potential to drive a whole different value paradigm than we see now for current, western-manufactured high-end products.

To mention software briefly, a lot of people declare SACD failure because it didn't take over the mass market. But while I hope for its survival, I really don't want or need it to go mainstream because I believe that relatively high quality is more likely to be maintained if SACD stays a niche product.

noddin0ff
02-15-2007, 07:56 AM
With an increasing amount of people having large amounts of disposable income, they are willing to spend money on the finer things in life, the Porsche's, the penthouse suite, hundreds of dollars on wine, the 60" TV. They cover all of there senses with the finest they can get, they truly apreciate quality and are willing to spend money on it. But quite often they over look the audio side of it. As they enjoy their expensive furniture, booze, ect, they turn on their $1000 home theatre in a box, that they beleive is a decent, if not good sounding system. Now its not their fault that they beleive that what you can get at the future shops, and circuit city is high end audio, it's just that they are uneducated in the world of audio.

Well, obviously this is an aimless generalization. Who's to say what any person enjoys or how they weigh their investment vs enjoyment. The rich are just like the rest of us except they have more money. And, many of the wealthy or well off got that way through frugal habits.

Some things are easy to appreciate some things take time. If I had the dough, a 60" TV would be a no brainer. It obviously provides a grander experience than a 32". I think it takes longer to figure out what you want in audio. There's the simple visual aesthetics. I for one could never live with Flo's system (not that I wouldn't enjoy it tremendously) just because of it's size (and I'm bigger than Flo). I suppose if I could afford another house for it, my mind would change. Anyway, first you need to develop an appreciation for music, then you need to develop and understanding of the reproduction thereof. Then you need to figure out what your preferences are. Then you need to spend time and shop and shop around. It's less a money investment than a time investment. For HT, if you want to hear bullets whizzing you can do well with a HTiB with out investing the time. If time is more valuable than money, HTiB is a great value.

royphil345
02-15-2007, 08:24 AM
The fact is... The wealthier you are... the less time you tend to spend in one place, sitting in front of a screen or between two speakers. Setting up a first-class high-end system simply takes more effort than some are willing to devote. High-end is a wonderful hobby, though there are others... Different people will spend their spare time learning about and doing different things. Different people have different priorities.

markw
02-15-2007, 08:40 AM
Different people have different priorities.Some people, even well to do ones, just don't care about "high end" and see this stuff simply as an appliance, and money spent on appliances has limits.

If they want to impress their friends, they go into some expensive botique store (where they play poofy music ;)) and get some sinfully expensive stuff with names they can't pronounce and controls they can't figure out but, if they REALLY want to impress the country club set, they get a Bose system.

And, you know what? That's fine. they are happy with it and feel good about it.

Me? I'm perfectly content with Beringer's wine. Anythng more expensive would be a waste of money in my book.

JohnMichael
02-15-2007, 09:06 AM
Also as I have discovered lately audio shops can be very off putting. I was shopping for speakers and I made the mistake of saying I am not interested in home theater. They were no longer interested in me unless of course I would like a pair of Wilson Watt/Puppy's. If I was a busy exec who had the money to own the best from working hard and I received poor service I can understand why they might stick with their HT from a box. I ended up buying from a web based company.

Dusty Chalk
02-15-2007, 12:51 PM
I have found that trying to lead laypeople into high-end audio is akin to teaching a pig to sing -- dirty and painful for both parties. The really mean ones bite.

topspeed
02-15-2007, 05:23 PM
There is no correlation between personal wealth and audio equipment. Sorry, doesn't work like that.

As roy said, it's simply a matter of priorities. I have friends that are considered well off by any standard and most could care less about audio, cars or any of the other stereotypical "bling" possessions the media would lead you to believe. One of my best friends makes mid-six figures a month and drives a used '01 E class he bought at auction for $24,000. This guy can tool around in a Continental GT...or in audio terms pay cash for a pair of Von Schweikert VR11's...and guess what, he has a Phillips HTiB :thumbsup:. Could he afford better? Well, duh! He simply doesn't care. He'd rather go fishing at his place in Mexico or jump in the RV and take the family skiing in Utah.

It's all about what you want, not what other people think you should have.

Feanor
02-15-2007, 07:19 PM
There is no correlation between personal wealth and audio equipment. Sorry, doesn't work like that.

As roy said, it's simply a matter of priorities. I have friends that are considered well off by any standard and most could care less about audio, cars or any of the other stereotypical "bling" possessions the media would lead you to believe. ....

It's all about what you want, not what other people think you should have.

Your example of a the rich guy who cares about neither (a) audiophilia, nor (2) bling, is all well and fine. If your don't care for these things being rich isn't going to make you indulge.

But what about the poor guy for whom great sound, (or bling, for that matter), is high priority? Regardless of the high priority he isn't going to end up with the MBL 9011 amps and the Kharma Grande Exquisites. Gee, I think I know somebody just like that. :)
...

topspeed
02-16-2007, 09:30 AM
But what about the poor guy for whom great sound, (or bling, for that matter), is high priority? Regardless of the high priority he isn't going to end up with the MBL 9011 amps and the Kharma Grande Exquisites. Gee, I think I know somebody just like that. :)
...Well, I s'pose now that guy has a reason to get out of bed in the morning :).

Anything is possible, it all depends on your level of commitment (or whether your friends should have you committed :p). There is a guy I know that is a retired sound engineer. He lives a modest life, not an ounce of bling to be found. His rig is ridiculous! It is custom made, from the speakers to the wire to the tube amps. The sound is transcendent and it cost an arm and a leg. My buddy's Legacy Whispers have got nothing on this thing. However, the guy is a die-hard audiophile and that is what he decided to spend all his money on. He is not rich, he just poured most of his cash into his hobby. Why not? You only live once.

recoveryone
02-16-2007, 10:11 AM
Great points from all above and from all different angles. And it all comes down to what is important/priority. Now to back up a bit, about why the ones that do try to go highend and head down the wrong street is another issue in my book. We can really only blame ourselves, with 100x the information out there (thank you INTERNET) good and bad. many fall for the the ones that scream the loudest. How often do you see on Saturday mornings or late night an info commercial by Bose. And with the establishment of BB and CC its hard to see through the fluff. In the old days, magazines like Stereo Review and others were the bible of relyed upon information and aided many of us (that are older) in our decision and beliefs in what is true in the audio world. As I mention above today with the net anyone can post anything they want and call it highend and payoff some people (reviewers) to agree.

When I was a kid the Bose 901 was in a class of its own and righlty so, and Bose still is living off that one speaker design and preformance. Many people ask me about older compaines (Marantz/Rotel/Carver) to name a few to see if they are still in biz, cause all they see in the stores are the cookie cutter stuff and there is no marketing to the masses by these compaines. I remember the days when Sony was a johnny come lately company from Japan that no real audophil would have in their system. and now its considered as one of the top products (their highend line).

In closing, many do want to have highend gear, but do to budget limits, lack of knowledge or just not important to them they go with what they see in print ads, TV and bad advice.

Mike Anderson
02-16-2007, 09:07 PM
I have found that trying to lead laypeople into high-end audio is akin to teaching a pig to sing -- dirty and painful for both parties. The really mean ones bite.

How true! And amusing.

I find there's basically only one way to turn laypersons onto high-end audio. When they come into your home, turn on your rig. Don't mention that you're doing it, or otherwise draw attention to it, just do it casually, like you're taking their coat and fixing them a drink.

In about 30 seconds, they're saying, "Holy cow - that sounds amazing!"

Then they start looking around at your gear, followed by the inevitable next question: "How much did you pay for that?"

And some people will NOT let you dodge that question. I'll even say outright, "A lot, but I don't really care to discuss it in detail." And then they'll start throwing out numbers to gauge your reaction and decide how much they think you spent... So obnoxious.

Now, if I'd dropped five times that amount on a new car, they wouldn't ever ask such a thing, or even consider the question.

Of course I spend about 3-4 hours a day in front of my rig, and about 20 mins a day in my car, on average. And I get about a thousand times more pleasure out of my rig. Seems like money well-spent, to me, but a lot of people just don't get it.