Upgrade time...maybe tube time?

[Feanor]

I'm thinking of swapping my Adcom GFP-750. This pre features passive as well as active operation, balanced inputs & outputs, and remote control. It is design from Nelson Pass, the famous designer, and got a rave reveiw in Stereophile, (Wes Phillips), back in 1999 ...
http://stereophile.com/solidpreamps/133/

So far so good, but undoubtedly the GFP-750 is a bit bright in active mode -- very detail, quite airy, but "silvery" too. Passive is extremely good but that mode cannot produce truly balanced output, (i.e. unless the input is also truly balanced). The problem is that my Monarchy SM-70 Pro amps work best only with truly balanced input. Since I really like the Monarchys, the Adcom could be on its way out.

Perhaps it's time to give tubes a shot. So my specs are these:

Tube preamp
Remote control
True balanced outputs, at least one pair
Four or more inputs, preferably one pair balanced
Second pair of outputs, balanced or not
Price used, less than US$1200.<US$1200, li <$900.< preferably <$900.<US$1200,>That's it, AR buds: any suggestions?

[jrhymeammo]

Here is one.
It retails for $2195 so you might get lucky on Agon if you can up your budget towards $1500.

http://www.powermodules.com/21a.html

[Feanor]

I'm thinking of swapping my Adcom GFP-750....

Perhaps it's time to give tubes a shot. So my specs are these:

Tube preamp
Remote control
True balanced outputs, at least one pair
Four or more inputs, preferably one pair balanced
Second pair of outputs, balanced or not
Price used, less than US$1200.<US$1200, <$900.<US$1200, preferably <$900.< li>That's it, AR buds: any suggestions?

Possibliities I've thought of or had mentioned are:

BAT VK-3i
Sonic Frontiers Line 1 or Line 2
Audio Research LS16 or LS16 MkII
Belles 21AAnd sure, I'll admit I covet the McIntosh C220 or C2200, but that ain't going to happen.

What's looking good at the moment are a couple of Sonic Frontier Line 1's, both under $1000. Of course, Sonic Frontiers has been out of business for a while, but I contacted Parts Connexion who say they can repair these units if need be. See Audiophilia reveiw ...
http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/line1.htm

[Mr Peabody]

If you want "true" balanced outputs I think BAT is your only choice. To my knowledge even the ARC XLR's are just circuit taps to make the unit more flexible. I had a SF power amp once to try out but it didn't work, I do not remember any balanced inputs on the unit. I haven't heard BAT but remmber BAT stands for Balanced Audio Technology.

[jrhymeammo]

http://www.worldtubeaudio.com/directory/categories/kategorie_2.htm

You have probably seen this site already, if not this should help you expand your option. AR may not be the place to be asking about non-HT related questions, I love it here though.

[Feanor]

If you want "true" balanced outputs I think BAT is your only choice. To my knowledge even the ARC XLR's are just circuit taps to make the unit more flexible. I had a SF power amp once to try out but it didn't work, I do not remember any balanced inputs on the unit. I haven't heard BAT but remmber BAT stands for Balanced Audio Technology.

And no doubt you're right that not all XLR outputs are putting out truly balanced. However I believe SF is actually balanced too. Full balanced circuitry is more costly to built since a duplicate, complete set of components is needed for both the + and - signal paths.

Ethically, if a maker advertises "balanced" output, that should be truly balanced, even if the entire circuitry isn't. That combination is most common I believe, e.g. my former Bel Canto. The Adcom is fully balanced throughout, but that only applies in active mode or with fully balanced inputs.

[jrhymeammo]

So VTL TL 5.5 isnt truly balanced?

I didnt know that entry level BAT can be had for about $2500....maybe I'll start looking for a used tube pre-pro

[Feanor]

So VTL TL 5.5 isnt truly balanced?

I didnt know that entry level BAT can be had for about $2500....maybe I'll start looking for a used tube pre-pro

You'll have to go to the 7.5 Series II Reference -- but that's what you really wanted anyway, right?1?

http://www.vtl.com/pages/preamplifiers/75/
...

[Feanor]

...

Perhaps it's time to give tubes a shot. So my specs are these:

Tube preamp
Remote control
True balanced outputs, at least one pair
Four or more inputs, preferably one pair balanced
Second pair of outputs, balanced or not
Price used, less than US$1200.<US$1200, <$900.<US$1200, preferably <$900.< li>That's it, AR buds: any suggestions?

Well almost anyway. I bought the Sonic Frontiers Line 1 preamp on Audiogon.
...
<IMG SRC="http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/SonicFrontiersLine1-front.jpg" ALT="?" BORDER=1>
...
<IMG SRC="http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/SonicFrontiersLine1-inside.jpg" ALT="?" BORDER=1>
...
(Six 6922 tubes.)

Sonic Frontiers is no longer in business; the company was bought some years ago by Paradigm, but the latter discontinued the Sonic Frontiers lineup while keeping the Anthem line. However expert service for Sonic Frontiers is available from Parts Connexion whose president, Chris Johnson, was president of Sonic Frontiers.

The Line 1 is a highly impressive piece of machinery; here's hoping it works upon arrival.
http://www.anthemav.com/OldSitev1/pages/line.html#line1

[jrhymeammo]

Damn Frizzy, that was fast. That's one cool looking remote. I can't wait to hear your experience with the new toy. Let the tube rollin' begin. Plenty of 6DJ8 for you out there if you ever choose to play.

Congrats,

-J

[Feanor]

Damn Frizzy, that was fast. That's one cool looking remote. I can't wait to hear your experience with the new toy. Let the tube rollin' begin. Plenty of 6DJ8 for you out there if you ever choose to play.

Congrats,

-J

It'll probably be 2-3 weeks before it arrives. But yes. You called it!! I'm already thinking about rolling tubes.

Hummm ... 6 x 6922/6DJ8 could be pricey for a matched and balanced set. I've heard though that you can get good improvement just changing the gain tubes, (which are, apparently, the middle set).
:cornut:

[JoeE SP9]

Very very nice!!!!!:)

[jrhymeammo]

relate:ihih:

I hope it'll work out for you th way you expect it to and more.

6922s are fairly cheap, but I guess you are right. Since it's for your preamp, the last thing you want is microphonic and noisy tubes. My JJ Telsa E88CCs are alright, but not great for my setup. Maybe it'll work our for you. I prefer the sound of stock chinese tubes. AA is filled with tube freaks so that'll be the best place to get some idea if you havent already.

I think it's about time AR starts a valve forum, but not sure how active it'll be.
I would love to hear your TRollin' experience once you get it crackin'
Most places are out of The CryoValve Mullard CV2492($329 a pair)....

-j

btw, are you going to keep your Adcom until you decide which you prefer?

[bobsticks]

Hey Feonor,

Sharp looking new gears, my man. Never laid ears on Sonic Frontiers myself but like everyone I've heard the tales. I hope it lives up to all expectations.

I understand the apprehension on any auction acquisition. Right now i got a little somethin-somethin in the works myself so we'll cross our fingers together...


Cheers to good karma

[Mr Peabody]

Let me jump in with another congrads. It's very interesting how many of us on AR now have tube gear.

[basite]

Let me jump in with another congrads. It's very interesting how many of us on AR now have tube gear.


hmmm, I seem to be getting behind...

maybe in a few years...
(I hope)

let's first see how the upcoming amp will improve my system... (this summer)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[poweredamp]

Look out for more options. There sure are lots of other great deals that will give you the power amp you need.

______________
McIntosh MA6900 Integrated Amplifier (http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/mcintosh-laboratory-inc-1500/ma6900-integrated-amplifier-5970.html) - Download the MA6900 Integrated Amplifier Catalog by McIntosh Laboratory, Inc.

[Mr Peabody]

I just saw an ad for the Cayin 100t which is a 100x2 unltralinear and 50x2 triode that uses KT-88's. The cost $2,995.00. The sound is said to be patterned after the renouned Marantz 9.

[jrhymeammo]

I just saw an ad for the Cayin 100t which is a 100x2 unltralinear and 50x2 triode that uses KT-88's. The cost $2,995.00. The sound is said to be patterned after the renouned Marantz 9.

Looks sweet, ay?

Cary SLI-80 or Cayin 100T. I would trust more on Cary amps, but Cayin shouldnt be too bad. They both look delicious to me.

[audio_dude]

damn, i feel so left out.... i'll have to buy some tube stuff next time 'round...

[nightflier]

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but could someone elaborate on "truly balanced output," especially as it related to the Adcom pre? I didn't know there were different levels of balanced inputs/outputs.

I'm more in the SS camp (using a Plinius CD-LAD with balanced outs right now), so I don't even know if this applies to non-tube gear. I'm also using a single balanced input, two unbalanced inputs, and a single balanced output to the amps. I presume that the unbalanced inputs do not benefit from the balanced output.

Apologies for all the questions, but this is new territory for me....

[Mr Peabody]

The bottomline is that few manufacturers use true balanced circuitry, they tap off the regular circuit to an XLR out for connectivity convenience, or quasi deception. I'm not able to fully explain what all the circuit is about with regard to what goes to what pin etc. Balanced circuits also have a mirror left & right channel circuits totally separate from each other. I know Krell and BAT for sure do true solid state balanced circuits. It's still debated as to if it offers a huge difference sonically over RCA. I am not sure if any tube manufacturers have true balance. Some one said ARC did on some gear but I've also heard it was not. I'm sure if some one cared enough they could find out from and email or phone call to them or any other manufacturer.

[Feanor]

The bottomline is that few manufacturers use true balanced circuitry, they tap off the regular circuit to an XLR out for connectivity convenience, or quasi deception. I'm not able to fully explain what all the circuit is about with regard to what goes to what pin etc. Balanced circuits also have a mirror left & right channel circuits totally separate from each other. I know Krell and BAT for sure do true solid state balanced circuits. It's still debated as to if it offers a huge difference sonically over RCA. I am not sure if any tube manufacturers have true balance. Some one said ARC did on some gear but I've also heard it was not. I'm sure if some one cared enough they could find out from and email or phone call to them or any other manufacturer.

Thanks for these comments and perhaps your right, although some BAT models provide only balanced inputs as well as outputs which might be indicative of something.

In the case of the Sonic Frontiers mode I bought, SL asserts, "all balanced design from input to output". See their specs ...
http://www.anthemav.com/OldSitev1/pages/line.html#line1

In my case what I wanted was full balanced outputs from my preamp to my Monarchy SM-70 Pros; the latter strongly favor fully balanced input for reasons I don't fully understand given my scant technical knowledge. Hence in actuality I don't give a rat's ass whether my pre is fully balanced front to back so long as the back provides balanced outputs.
...

[Feanor]

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but could someone elaborate on "truly balanced output," especially as it related to the Adcom pre? I didn't know there were different levels of balanced inputs/outputs.

I'm more in the SS camp (using a Plinius CD-LAD with balanced outs right now), so I don't even know if this applies to non-tube gear. I'm also using a single balanced input, two unbalanced inputs, and a single balanced output to the amps. I presume that the unbalanced inputs do not benefit from the balanced output.

Apologies for all the questions, but this is new territory for me....

It is likely that single-end inputs on your Plinius do benefit from the balanced output. That is, the balanced outputs are truly balanced though the inputs aren't.

In the case of the Adcom GFP-760, I got this info directly from an Adcom rep. As we know, the GFP-750 has two amplification modes: passive and active. In active mode, the "balanced" XLR outputs are truly balanced regardless of whether the input is balanced or not; however in passive mode, the XLR outputs are truly balanced only if the inputs are truly balanced. I wanted a preamp that has true balanced outputs, however I find the GFP-750 to be distinctly bright in active mode, so I was looking for another preamp.

[nightflier]

The bottomline is that few manufacturers use true balanced circuitry, they tap off the regular circuit to an XLR out for connectivity convenience, or quasi deception. I'm not able to fully explain what all the circuit is about with regard to what goes to what pin etc. Balanced circuits also have a mirror left & right channel circuits totally separate from each other. I know Krell and BAT for sure do true solid state balanced circuits. It's still debated as to if it offers a huge difference sonically over RCA. I am not sure if any tube manufacturers have true balance. Some one said ARC did on some gear but I've also heard it was not. I'm sure if some one cared enough they could find out from and email or phone call to them or any other manufacturer.

I can tell you that there is an audible difference when using the balanced outputs to the amp vs. using RCA. However, I can not hear any difference (believe me I've tried all the combinations) between using balanced and RCA inputs. From that I'm going to guess that my Plinius CD-LAD has truly balanced outputs but semi/fake(?) balanced inputs. I was not able to find the documentation for my pre (although I'm sure I'll find it after this discussion is over). Anyhow, am I correct in my assertion?

By the way, I still would like to hear the Adcom preamp in my own setup someday. I tend to prefer a warmer richer sound, but it's always helpful to have a component on the other end of the spectrum, just to make sure I'm not going deaf (which I suspect often enough).

[Mr Peabody]

Feanor, that looks like a very nice preamp. It is the real deal, fully balanced. Impressive specs. Did you notice the 6dB more gain from the balanced outs? It also has a low output impedance which makes it very compatible with solid state.

So how does she sound? I'd think that pre with Monarchy mono's would be a sweet set up.

Now all you need is my Krell 280cd fully balaced CD player :)

[Feanor]

Feanor, that looks like a very nice preamp. It is the real deal, fully balanced. Impressive specs. Did you notice the 6dB more gain from the balanced outs? It also has a low output impedance which makes it very compatible with solid state.

So how does she sound? I'd think that pre with Monarchy mono's would be a sweet set up.

Now all you need is my Krell 280cd fully balaced CD player :)

I'm not hearing any sound at the moment, unfortunately. I had a problem with, of all things, the Mute control which won't disengage, so the unit is at Parts ConneXion for repairs.

The sound of the LINE 1 & SM-70 Pro combination is very clean and dynamic -- I think the balanced operation between the two is a the big factor. Overall this is a very neutral sounding preamp; hardly the tube stereotype. In fact I'd like to hear it sounding a little warmer assuming no loss of resolution. The unit came with six Sovtech 6992's; for the heck of it I'm going to replace the gain stage tubes with a pair of Siemens E88CC's (from eBay), and perhaps the input pair with Reflektor 6H23B-EB's (from pcX). We'll see if that produces a bit more tube-like sound.

[Bernd]

I'm not hearing any sound at the moment, unfortunately. I had a problem with, of all things, the Mute control which won't disengage, so the unit is at Parts ConneXion for repairs.

The sound of the LINE 1 & SM-70 Pro combination is very clean and dynamic -- I think the balanced operation between the two is a the big factor. Overall this is a very neutral sounding preamp; hardly the tube stereotype. In fact I'd like to hear it sounding a little warmer assuming no loss of resolution. The unit came with six Sovtech 6992's; for the heck of it I'm going to replace the gain stage tubes with a pair of Siemens E88CC's (from eBay), and perhaps the input pair with Reflektor 6H23B-EB's (from pcX). We'll see if that produces a bit more tube-like sound.

Hi Bill,

Sorry to hear about your amp problem. Hope it gets back to you soon.
A little word of advice about the Siemens. The really good ones are old ones made by Siemens & Halske.The S and H are interwoven on the tubes screenprint. Many of the newer ones are manufactured in Yugoslavyia and usually come in orange and blue boxes.
If you want more tube sound try some Mullards CV2492, Ediswan CV2492, Tungsram 6922 or some Amperex 7308. Those will give you a lush midband with lots of detail.
The best ones to get, if you can find them(rare as hens teeth), are the Siemens & Halske CCa. With the grey shield in yellow and blue boxes and with a coloured seal.
Hope this helps and have a great weekend.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[Feanor]

Hi Bill,

Sorry to hear about your amp problem. Hope it gets back to you soon.
A little word of advice about the Siemens. The really good ones are old ones made by Siemens & Halske.The S and H are interwoven on the tubes screenprint. Many of the newer ones are manufactured in Yugoslavyia and usually come in orange and blue boxes.
If you want more tube sound try some Mullards CV2492, Ediswan CV2492, Tungsram 6922 or some Amperex 7308. Both will give you a lush midband with lots of detail.
The best ones to get, if you can find them(rare as hens teeth), are the Siemens & Halske CCa. With the grey shield in yellow and blue boxes and with a coloured seal.
Hope this helps and have a great weekend.

Peace

Bernd

Hi, Bernd,

The Siemens I bought on eBay are definitely not the the CCa variety (which seem to go for US$250+ a piece). Off hand I don't recall much printed on them except "Siemens" and "E88CC"; they have gold pins and are in gold boxes, (not orange/blue). They resemble these ones at Tube Depot ...
http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-6922-siemens.html
... except I paid US$73 for a pair. I'll need to confirm whether they have the small "SH" logo.

[Bernd]

Hi, Bernd,

The Siemens I bought on eBay are definitely not the the CCa variety (which seem to go for US$250+ a piece). Off hand I don't recall much printed on them except "Siemens" and "E88CC"; they have gold pins and are in gold boxes, (not orange/blue). They resemble these ones at Tube Depot ...
http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-6922-siemens.html
... except I paid US$73 for a pair. I'll need to confirm whether they have the small "SH" logo.

Hi Bill,

That sounds promising. I am not saying that the later ones are bad. They are cool tubes. It's just that the Siemens & Halske have that 60s magic tube sound with them.
All western 6922s have gold pins the eastern european ones have tin. Both sound fine it's just another confusing little factoid.
Good luck with the new bottles.

Peace

Bernd:16:

[Feanor]

Hi, Bernd,

The Siemens I bought on eBay are definitely not the the CCa variety (which seem to go for US$250+ a piece). Off hand I don't recall much printed on them except "Siemens" and "E88CC"; they have gold pins and are in gold boxes, (not orange/blue). They resemble these ones at Tube Depot ...
http://www.tubedepot.com/nos-6922-siemens.html
... except I paid US$73 for a pair. I'll need to confirm whether they have the small "SH" logo.

These tubes are boxes labeled, "Siemens-Röhre", and "Made in Germany (West)" The tubes themselves don't have the entwined "SH" logo, although this appears on the boxes. Besides "Siemens E88CC" the only other markings on the glass of the tubes are "380" on one and "580" on the other. "A691" is stamp on metal pieces inside in both cases.

[Feanor]

I'm not hearing any sound at the moment, unfortunately. I had a problem with, of all things, the Mute control which won't disengage, so the unit is at Parts ConneXion for repairs.

The sound of the LINE 1 & SM-70 Pro combination is very clean and dynamic -- I think the balanced operation between the two is a the big factor. Overall this is a very neutral sounding preamp; hardly the tube stereotype. In fact I'd like to hear it sounding a little warmer assuming no loss of resolution. The unit came with six Sovtech 6992's; for the heck of it I'm going to replace the gain stage tubes with a pair of Siemens E88CC's (from eBay), and perhaps the input pair with Reflektor 6H23B-EB's (from pcX). We'll see if that produces a bit more tube-like sound.

The Sonic Frontiers LINE 1 is back for the shop and working well. The pcX technicial, Glen, called me at one point and said he couldn't duplicate the frozen Mute problem, but subsequently but I see that they replaced the headphone jack. This might have had something to do with the Mute problem since inserting a headphone plug engages the mute function.

Upon receiving the LINE 1 installed the Reflektor 6H23B's from pcX in the gain sage and hooked everything up: only noise from the left channel. :( What could it be? I decided to try the original Sovtek tubes: that fixed the problem. So looks like one Reflektor was "DOA". I'll contact pcX.

I then decided to swap out the Sovteks for the Siemens E88CC I got on eBay. At first the sound was smooth but a bit murky, plus there as a slight channel imbalance. However now after 12 hours or so of playing these problems have largely corrected themselves. Presumably the Siemens really were new as the seller had stated, in which case they need a little burn in.

I'm beginning to thing the Siemens are a useful improvent over the Sovteks; assuming most of the burn-in is over. The sound is subtly but perceptably warmer and is making the austere LINE 1 sound more tube-like. As I type I'm listening to Ralph Krishbaum's recent rendition of Bach's Celle Suites and am really enjoying a very luxurious cello sounds whereas before with the LINE 1 and my old Adcom, the sound was a tad bright.

Over all the system sounds great; there is losts of controlled, very dynamic. A lot of this I ascribe to fully balanced output from the LINE 1 to the Monarchy monoblocks, although I haven't really tried single-ended connection to prove the point.

[jrhymeammo]

Glad to hear she made it back safely.Let us know if it'll live up to your expectation.

JRA

[Feanor]

Glad to hear she made it back safely.Let us know if it'll live up to your expectation.

JRA

Thanks, Hiro,

Yes, the Line 1 is sounding good now the Siemens tubes have had a little burn in -- they sounded a bit veiled at first and there was channel imbalance as I mentioned. But now I'm hearing excellent resolution, as good as ever, and a tad more warmth which is what I hoped for.

Still, the Line 1 doesn't seem to fit the tube stereotype I've heard about. I'm enclined to believe I"m hearing the high-end tube sound which is convergent with the high-end s/s sound -- I'd like to think so. :)

I might mention that I got a set of Pearl Tube Coolers. I'm using these and am not getting any microphonics that I can detect ...
http://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/01_Audio_Notes/PEARL_Tube_Coolers.pdf

[jrhymeammo]

Thank you for the link Bill.

[Feanor]

Well almost anyway. I bought the Sonic Frontiers Line 1 preamp on Audiogon.
...
http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/SonicFrontiersLine1-front.jpg
...
http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/SonicFrontiersLine1-inside.jpg
...
(Six 6922 tubes.)

Sonic Frontiers is no longer in business; the company was bought some years ago by Paradigm, but the latter discontinued the Sonic Frontiers lineup while keeping the Anthem line. However expert service for Sonic Frontiers is available from Parts Connexion whose president, Chris Johnson, was president of Sonic Frontiers.

The Line 1 is a highly impressive piece of machinery; here's hoping it works upon arrival.
http://www.anthemav.com/OldSitev1/pages/line.html#line1

At last I'm getting something more like I expected from a tube preamp. :) What it has taken is the replacement of four of the six Sovtek 6922 tubes in the LINE 1.

I first rolled the Sovteks in the gain stages, (middle pair in the photo above), for NOS Siemens E88CC's which did yield a somewhat silkier treble sound. But what really did more was replacing the Sovteks in the input section, (left-most pair in the photo), with NOS Reflektor 6H23P-EB's. Now I'm hearing a really sweet but still well resolved tube sound.

The Reflektors were the suggestion of Chris Johnson at Parts Connexion where I bought them. (Chris was one of the designers of the LINE1 so maybe he should know; he did suggest I replace all the Sovteks with Reflektors, but I had already bought the Siemens on eBay.) At $45 a match pair, perhaps the Reflektor 6H23P-EB's should be considered a bit of a bargain.

BTW, that puck shaped remote control is a really practical, handy design.

[bobsticks]

Hey Feanor,

I had never peeped out your system before...some great looking gears, and I'm sure with the new compliment of tubes it sounds heavenly. Pretty cool to have someone on the groundfloor of production/design giving you advice. May you have many blissful hours of enjoyment.

Cheers

[Bernd]

....Bill,

I am glad the SF is fixed and doing sterling service. It looks very impressive in and out.:)
I have heard only good reports about the 6H23P-EB tube. I think I will have to check 'em out.
Enjoy, and wishing you many glorious musical times.

Peace

:16:

[Feanor]

....Bill,

I am glad the SF is fixed and doing sterling service. It looks very impressive in and out.:)
I have heard only good reports about the 6H23P-EB tube. I think I will have to check 'em out.
Enjoy, and wishing you many glorious musical times.

Peace

:16:

Yes, I'm pretty pleased with the LINE 1 at this point. How are you making out with the Manley Steelhead and all those CCa tubes? I can only imaging that it sounds great. :)

By the way, I swapped the Reflektors to the gain stage and the Siemens to the input stage; my impression is that this gives slightly better resolution while retaining the warmer sound relative to the Sovteks. The inside picture I alluded to doesn't show the Pearl Tube Coolers I'm now using. Here's a picture of the unit en suite so to speak ...
...
http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/SonicFrontiersLINE1wRC.jpg

[Bernd]

Hi Bill,

That's great. I must say, I do like the look of the Sonic Frontier and so well laid out inside. Maybe I take a picture of the Steelheads inards.
I had a little hum issue with the Manley. Any input that wasn't connected was dead silent. The moment I made a connection I had some low level hum. Quite anoying. I tried all sorts of things to find the earth loop, but no luck. Very frustrating. The Manley customer support was great and answered all my e-mails with some more suggestions.
Anyway returning home from a gig sunday morning, ears ringing and mind tired, I looked at the beast and I had a thought -even though a tired one- to move the Steelheads power supply to the other rack on which the mains products reside. So as far as the Manleys umbilical cord could stretch. And low and behold, no more hum. Only silent dark background. A little lesson here, me thinks.
Have a great week and enjoy the warm glow of bottles.

Peace

:16:

[Mr Peabody]

I recently picked up a PS Audio Quintet and was amazed at how much darker the background was with my CJ gear. It also improved my bass response, tightened it up, and made subtle details easier to hear. Your hum is what makes me bring this up, I had a slight hum or buzz through my speakers when switched to phono which the addition of the Quintet, eliminated. When I find a product that really does what it says, I like to pass it on.

[Bernd]

......the PS Audio Quintet. Great that it worked for you. Any links for it?

I use Isotek Mains products and have a dedicated mains supply for the system and everything is dead silent and very very dark. But that hum was a pain in the lower rear. When I got the Steelhead I didn't notice it at first. Yes, it sounded better than my previous Phono amp but somehow not as much an improvement as I thought. I did put it down to breaking the unit in and for the Tubes to come on song.
After having it for about two weeks, when playing a very quiet piece of music, I started to notice the slight hum. And from then on in I kept listening for it, and it drove me almost crazy. When I did run the TT through the MM input it was quiet, but through the MC inputs I had the dreaded hum in all its glory. The MC transformers inside must be really sensitive. The Power supply stood below the main unit with a shelf and a Voodoo air support in between. It still picked it up.
Once I moved the power supply and started to listen, the difference was mind blowing.Total silence and inky black background. Masses and masses of micro detail that had been masked by the hum. A vast sound stage, and an increase in dynamics as if the Steelhead has been super-charged. It was like day and night. And yes, now the Steelhead sounds significantly better than it's predecessor.:)

Peace

:16:

P.S Sorry Bill for hijacking your thread.

[Feanor]

......

P.S Sorry Bill for hijacking your thread.

No prob, Bernd,

I was getting very annoying hum from my former Bel Canto eVo2i integrated a while back. So I bought myself a Tripp Lite IS1000 isolation transformer. The Tripp Lite did greatly reduce the hum in the Bel Canto -- unfortunately it hummed itself much louder than the Bel ever did. :lol: (Might have helped if I could have put the Tripp in another room, say, but I couldn't arrange that.)

My current Monarchy amps hum quite loudly if connected to the preamp by single-ended interconnects, but are pretty quite with balanced connections -- one reason I weny with the LINE 1.

[jrhymeammo]

My current analog gears are extremely sensitive to wire placement. Cross them, lift them,bundle them, they all act extremely different. I've never experienced this much of background/hum in my life. My case is pretty severe though...
All this talk about Humlimination is getting my juices flowing.


JRA

[Mr Peabody]

Here you go: http://www.psaudio.com/search.asp?search=quintet+

www.amusicdirect.com may still honor the $495.00 price and give a 30 day trial. What do you have to lose but hum:) I have nothing to gain by promoting the Quintet, I just had excellent results. I've tried other expensive power outlet gear and not kept them because I didn't like what they did. I think one of the main attributes, other than the space age filters, is the fact that it does not limit the current draw.

[Bernd]

....for the link Mr.P.

The unit looks sweet. I use products from here www.isoteksystems.com

Titan and Nova.
However the biggest improvement I got was having a dedicated mains spur. I also think that carefull cable management plays a part. Take note Hiro.

Bill, How do you find the Tube coolers? I have never tried any, maybe I should give them a go.

Peace

:23:

[Feanor]

....

Bill, How do you find the Tube coolers? I have never tried any, maybe I should give them a go.

Peace



Bernd,



The tauted advantage of the Pearl Tube Coolers is longer tube life -- up to 5 times, but they are also act as anti-microsonic dampers. Longer life might be a good thing if you've got rare, expensive tubes such as the CCa's. The Pearls for 9-pin mini-tubes like 6922's, are US$5.95 from Parts Connexion, which isn't a huge investment. Note that you do need a certain clearance around the tubes to mount them.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/NewTubes.html ... (see the right-most tab a the bottom of this screen)


The literature hints that there might be sound improvements but I can't say that I've heard any.

[jrhymeammo]

Here you go: http://www.psaudio.com/search.asp?search=quintet+

www.amusicdirect.com (http://www.amusicdirect.com) may still honor the $495.00 price and give a 30 day trial. What do you have to lose but hum:) I have nothing to gain by promoting the Quintet, I just had excellent results. I've tried other expensive power outlet gear and not kept them because I didn't like what they did. I think one of the main attributes, other than the space age filters, is the fact that it does not limit the current draw.

but all the for the good, I hope.

I just placed an order for PS Audio Duet Powerstrip. Just a little brother of your Quintet. I hope to experience something positive as you did. I hope it'll arrive by this weekend.

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

JRA, be sure to let me know how it worked for you. I took the Quintet because I needed all the outlets. All my stuff is in the same location.

[jrhymeammo]

.. Take note Hiro.


:23:
brother.

I'm not expecting PSA Duet to eliminate background noise, but if it can reduce the noise just enough for me to notice(not imagined), then I'm keeping it. But as you've experienced, power conditioners will not eliminate hum/BGnoise. Proper placement of gears help much more.

The next phono pre I'm going to purchase will definetely have a dedicated power supply. What's the point of listening with LOMC cartridge with a noise phono pre, right?


Gotta newbie question.
Why is it that $1000+ phono pres most likely have external Power Supply, but preamps do not. I understand that phonopres' output have much much higher gain (thus more susceptible to noise). Would we not hear the difference?

JRA

Mr. P. I will defintely post a reply on the thread you started.

[Mr Peabody]

I'm definitely not an expert on power supplies but I think it's like most things, you can find good and bad in each design. I'm not sure if having an external power supply is a guarantee of better results. The little Creek OBH-8 used an external power supply at under $200.00 and was an excellent phono stage, my Ph-1p retails around $1,600.00, it has an internal power supply and is regarded as an excellent phono stage in it's price range. I'd think an internal power supply with proper shielding would be less vonerable to interference than an external one would. Also anything I've used with power supplies have eventually shorted out at the plug or some where along the wire.

[Bernd]

Bernd,



The tauted advantage of the Pearl Tube Coolers is longer tube life -- up to 5 times, but they are also act as anti-microsonic dampers. Longer life might be a good thing if you've got rare, expensive tubes such as the CCa's. The Pearls for 9-pin mini-tubes like 6922's, are US$5.95 from Parts Connexion, which isn't a huge investment. Note that you do need a certain clearance around the tubes to mount them.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/NewTubes.html ... (see the right-most tab a the bottom of this screen)


The literature hints that there might be sound improvements but I can't say that I've heard any.

...for the link and info, Bill.
Just placed an order. See how it goes.

Interesting points about power supply (external or internal). My ART Audio Vinyl One had an internal power supply and was dead quiet. But in direct comparision to the Manley, with it's external power supply, it was also much less dynamic and missed some low level detail. Without comparing the two I would have never known.
I think that the Manleys power supply is very very good and over specified. Combine that with the very sensitive main unit of the steelhead and I can see now how hum was created in my set up. I agree that placemnet can make a huge difference. I never encountered or seriously considered that before this time. But moving the Power supply as far away as it will go cured all of the hum.
As for Mains products, if nothing else I like the peace of mind that my investment is protected should a power surge happen. The protection circuit in my Isoteks will trip before any damage is done.
Good luck Hiro with the new unit. Let us know, how you get on.

Peace

:16:

[basite]

actually, all the power centers & stuff...

would this make a difference too?
http://www.isoteksystems.com/multiway.asp

I only have a cheapo thing here (not even from a real brand or so, just some cheap stuff, no protection, no good contacts, nothing at all, just a box with powerplugs)

And Bernd,
I'm glad to hear you solved the hum problem,
Hum can be a real pain in the @ss sometimes...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Bernd]

actually, all the power centers & stuff...

would this make a difference too?
http://www.isoteksystems.com/multiway.asp

I only have a cheapo thing here (not even from a real brand or so, just some cheap stuff, no protection, no good contacts, nothing at all, just a box with powerplugs)

And Bernd,
I'm glad to hear you solved the hum problem,
Hum can be a real pain in the @ss sometimes...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

.....hums no more. Thanks Bert.

I think the Isotek would be a fine choice for you. If nothing else it would provide surge protection for your system and isolation between the different plugs. And later on, if you want to upgrade, you can implement the multiway or even have it upgraded.
I like Isotek products as it is the only thing that they do.
Hope this helps.

Peace

:16:

[Feanor]

Best, most tuby sound yet. A pair of used Amperex USA white letter 'PQ' 6922 tube: the smoothest, richest, most "musical" sound yet with no loss of detail.

The "new" tubes are in the gain stage. The inputs remain Siemens E88CC and the cathode followers, Sovtek 6922.

The Amperex came from eBay ...

http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/AmperexPQ-PQ.jpghttp://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/AmperexPQ-info.jpg

[basite]

congrats :)

happy listening...

btw, does anybody know where Bernd is? haven't seen him for quite a while on AR...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Bernd]

Best, most tuby sound yet. A pair of used Amperex USA white letter 'PQ' 6922 tube: the smoothest, richest, most "musical" sound yet with no loss of detail.

The "new" tubes are in the gain stage. The inputs remain Siemens E88CC and the cathode followers, Sovtek 6922.

The Amperex came from eBay ...

http://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/AmperexPQ-PQ.jpghttp://ca.geocities.com/w_d_bailey/AmperexPQ-info.jpg

.....that it's not only the tubes, but the circuit they are going into are as important as one another. Well done on scoring the BBs Bill.
When I had my Pathos Logos.I tried a pair and the sound became very dull and un-dynamic. Whereas several other people reported exactely what you found. If they work in your amp you found the right tube for you.

Enjoy.

Peace

:16:

[Feanor]

.....that it's not only the tubes, but the circuit they are going into are as important as one another. Well done on scoring the BBs Bill.
When I had my Pathos Logos.I tried a pair and the sound became very dull and un-dynamic. Whereas several other people reported exactely what you found. If they work in your amp you found the right tube for you.

Enjoy.

Peace



That is, that the circuit is important. I certainly haven't notice any lost of dynamics with the Amperex PQ's, but then the fully balanced design of the LINE 1 might be a big factor, especially in combo with the fully balanced, dynamic Monarchy amps. Also, with the PQ's I feel I'm hearing the greater sense of depth often attributed to tubes, but which I hadn't noted with the tubes I've tried heretofore.

Anyway, the LINE 1 has had mixed review over the years, which I'd suggest are the fault ot the standard Sovtek tubes. With the Sovteks the LINE1 sounded drier, brighter, and generally pretty solid state.

.

[Bernd]

That is, that the circuit is important. I certainly haven't notice any lost of dynamics with the Amperex PQ's, but then the fully balanced design of the LINE 1 might be a big factor, especially in combo with the fully balanced, dynamic Monarchy amps. Also, with the PQ's I feel I'm hearing the greater sense of depth often attributed to tubes, but which I hadn't noted with the tubes I've tried heretofore.

Anyway, the LINE 1 has had mixed review over the years, which I'd suggest are the fault ot the standard Sovtek tubes. With the Sovteks the LINE1 sounded drier, brighter, and generally pretty solid state.

.

.....but swapping from the stock Sovteks to Telefunkens E188CC was very obvious. When I then tried the Amperex I percieved a small loss of clarity and dynamics, but the BBs were way better than the Sovteks.
Your Buggle Boys are superb tubes and I wished I kept mine to try them out now in a different circuit.
Are you going to stick with some tubes in your replay chain now ? Tubes add some magic, don't you think?
Enjoy the warm glow and the music.
I have just scored a NOS matched pair of Tungsram E88CC. Looking forward to trying them out. I really liked there 12AX7s.

Peace

:16:

[Feanor]

.....but swapping from the stock Sovteks to Telefunkens E188CC was very obvious. When I then tried the Amperex I percieved a small loss of clarity and dynamics, but the BBs were way better than the Sovteks.
Your Buggle Boys are superb tubes and I wished I kept mine to try them out now in a different circuit.
Are you going to stick with some tubes in your replay chain now ? Tubes add some magic, don't you think?
Enjoy the warm glow and the music.
I have just scored a NOS matched pair of Tungsram E88CC. Looking forward to trying them out. I really liked there 12AX7s.

Peace



Just for clarification the 'PQ' Amperex are not Buggle Boys, but a different series. I'm a long, long way from being a tube conneseur but I believe the PQs are more highly regarded than the BBs, anyway the 'white label' ones seem to go for about twice the price. I found a reference at Audio Asylum from a guy who'd tried dozens of 6922 type tubes, and PQs were among his to top choices, (even above the CCa's :) !!). I'll try to locate that for you.

I like the sound from the LINE at the moment so I'll probably stick with the current configuration for now. Of course I'd heard about tube rolling before I got the preamp, but what really got me going was the LINE's sound which as scarcely any different from my former S/S preamp and really presented none of the signature tube sound people talk about. The Amperex PQs are now delivering a lot of that, especially the sense of depth, (not they're not microphonic!). The Siemens E88CC and Reflektors I tried where an improvement over the Sovteks but in the LINE 1 really didn't deliver all the goods.

Let us know what you think of the Tungsram when you've had a chance to hear them.

[Bernd]

...it. For some reason I thought you had BBs. Think I had a senior moment here. Those Amperex PQ white label are indeed very well regarded. I never had any of them. I also have a pair of Telefunkens E188CC, but to me, in the Manleys circuit, the Siemens CCa's sound a touch better. Again somebody else might hear that different.
I really rate Tungsrams, but they have to be originals with the small metal numbered tag.Will let you know how I get on. They are on their way to me as I type this.
It's great to hear that you enjoy the SF and that it all worked out.
Have a good one.

Peace

:16:

[Bernd]

....E88CC.

Hi Bill,

The tubes were waiting for me yesterday as I got home. Will install them today and see what they will do.
I hope you can see the little metal numbered tag inside the tube. It's just behind the "T".There are quiet a few Tungsram copies about, who were made in eastern germany. These will not have the metal tag. Just a point of info for those who are interested. Also these come with the original Hungarian instructions (no good to me, as I can't read hungarian) and numbered run. All very promising.

Have a great weekend

Peace

:16:

[Feanor]

....E88CC.

Hi Bill,

The tubes were waiting for me yesterday as I got home. Will install them today and see what they will do.
I hope you can see the little metal numbered tag inside the tube. It's just behind the "T".There are quiet a few Tungsram copies about, who were made in eastern germany. These will not have the metal tag. Just a point of info for those who are interested. Also these come with the original Hungarian instructions and numbered run. All very promising.

Have a great weekend

Peace



Good luck with the Tungsrams, Bernd, and let us know how they work out.

By the way here's the reference from AA I mentioned a few days ago. This chap covers of his experiences with 12AU7, 12AX7, and 6922-type tubes. Seems he never tried any Tungsram examples, though ...
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/joes-tubes.html#6DJ8

Sorry, can't actually find the inside number tag you refer to. The retail price for Tungsrams is out of my range (e.g. at Upscale Audio); same for CCa, and for that matter Siemens E88CCs. I got mine Siemens on eBay for a good deal less than half retail. Of course, one runs a much greater risk of counterfeit there than from a reputable dealer.

[jrhymeammo]

One question for you Bill,

Have you tried going to back to you stock tubes, and see what you think them now?

SF sounds to be a great bargain, but not so much after spending alot of money retubing.


JRA

[Feanor]

One question for you Bill,

Have you tried going to back to you stock tubes, and see what you think them now?

SF sounds to be a great bargain, but not so much after spending alot of money retubing.


JRA

And no, I haven't yet swapped back the Sovteks: yes, there is a risk I might find the upgrades weren't really worth it. I doubt it though -- after these 35 years of listening to hi-fi.

No doubt I didn't take the optimal course for the result I now like best. Knowing what I know now, I would buy the Amperex white label PQ's and try them put them in the gain position, leaving the Sovteks in the other two positions. This is the configuration I ought to try next.

Anyway, you have the BAT VK-3i now which you will doubtless love, so it's no issue for you.

[Mr Peabody]

Feanor, you and Bernd are slowly becoming my heroes with all this tube rolling discussion:) I haven't yet become confident enough to try such a thing. CJ discourages it and I'm happy with my sound but you never know.

JRA, I didn't realize you had a BAT, how do you like it and what else is in your 2 channel set up? I saw BAT was one of the first to use the, 6H30?, something like that, the super tube, once the tube became available to other manufacturers ARC started using it. This may be a coincidence but around the same time ARC's sound became colder and what I can only call an industrial or gray feel to the music. ARC's earlier gear's sound stuck in my mind and what eventually led me to seek out some tube gear but by that time the ARC sound turned me off. I am just curious how you would describe the BAT sound, if neutral or if it gives the presence like tube gear can sometimes do.

[Bernd]

[QUOTE=Mr Peabody]Feanor, you and Bernd are slowly becoming my heroes with all this tube rolling discussion:) I haven't yet become confident enough to try such a thing. CJ discourages it and I'm happy with my sound but you never know.

QUOTE]

Good Morning Mr P.,

Just try it, it's good fun and in the long run you might find a tube that works much better in your amps circuit than stock tubes. Especially the small signal tubes can make a big difference. I must track down some of those US Amperex PQ Bill is using.

Peace

:16:

[Bernd]

....to hijack Feanor's thread.:)
At last I have a free weekend, so I thought I post a little update.
Bill, I have not tried the Tungsrams yet. Will hopefully have some time to do so over the weekend.

Well, the Sphinx amps got here and they are as good as new. Sounding superb. Very Hifi like, fast and clean. I am not sure if the sound is for me, as I love my Tubes.
So along came another great offer I couldn't pass.:ihih:
Took delivery yesterday of Unison Research Unico DM.
Valves (ECC82s) in the input stage and class A Mosfets in the output. Bridged these put out 500W.
So now I have an integrated all tube amp, hybrid power amp and all solid state power amp.
I do prefer the sound of tubes in my replay chain. So I think I will sell the Sphinx to someone who likes their solid state presentation.
The Manley Steelhead and the Unico DM sound almost more Tube like than my Unison Research Performance. Ultimately the Performance is a better amp with just that little bit more of everything. But it's nice to have a choice, and the family sound of Unison Research, which I like, is present in both.
Hope everyone is well and enjoying their tunes.

Have a great weekend.

Peace

:16:

[basite]

well congrats, Bernd,

I can only imagine how music sounds there.
and I'm sure the 500 watts of power certainly made a big impact :)


You too,
Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[jrhymeammo]

C Bernd,

Very cool my man.

I received my new toy as well, and am still looking to power it with something.
I've been looking for a pair of used PS AUdio A-100 and others, but I just can't help myself from look at tube amps such as Rogue M-150 and others with blalanced inputs.

I'm just not sure if I can get away from comfort of tubes as you have found out.

Keep'em Glowing my man.

JRA

[Feanor]

....to hijack Feanor's thread.:)
At last I have a free weekend, so I thought I post a little update.
Bill, I have not tried the Tungsrams yet. Will hopefully have some time to do so over the weekend.

Well, the Sphinx amps got here and they are as good as new. Sounding superb. Very Hifi like, fast and clean. I am not sure if the sound is for me, as I love my Tubes.
So along came another great offer I couldn't pass.:ihih:
Took delivery yesterday of Unison Research Unico DM.
Valves (ECC82s) in the input stage and class A Mosfets in the output. Bridged these put out 500W.
So now I have an integrated all tube amp, hybrid power amp and all solid state power amp.
I do prefer the sound of tubes in my replay chain. So I think I will sell the Sphinx to someone who likes their solid state presentation.
The Manley Steelhead and the Unico DM sound almost more Tube like than my Unison Research Performance. Ultimately the Performance is a better amp with just that little bit more of everything. But it's nice to have a choice, and the family sound of Unison Research, which I like, is present in both.
Hope everyone is well and enjoying their tunes.

Have a great weekend.

Peace


Bernd,

Thanks for the updates. I hadn't heard of the Sphinx. They look very compact: are they "digital"?

I still suspect that tube amps work by adding pleasant distortion to mask less pleasant forms, but regardless, as I've learned, the one can prefer the end result.

[Bernd]

Bernd,

Thanks for the updates. I hadn't heard of the Sphinx. They look very compact: are they "digital"?

I still suspect that tube amps work by adding pleasant distortion to mask less pleasant forms, but regardless, as I've learned, the one can prefer the end result.

Hi Bill,

No, they are not digital. Pure ss. The dutch cable manufacturer "Siltech" used to have a little side line run by a small team of really dedicated guys that handbuild the "Sphinx" electronics.
The sound is very clean, detailed and fast with a nice soundstage, but I think the most important thing is that they are very stable and easy drive tough loudspeaker loads. Ideal for planars I reckon.
I think I am just hooked for good on Tubes. Just wanted to try a pair of Sphinx amps, and the offer was really good. Damn fine amps they are, just lacking a bit of soul for me.They also made a hybrid power amp. The Project 14 I think, rare as hens teeth.

Peace

:7:

[Bernd]

C Bernd,

Very cool my man.

I received my new toy as well, and am still looking to power it with something.
I've been looking for a pair of used PS AUdio A-100 and others, but I just can't help myself from look at tube amps such as Rogue M-150 and others with blalanced inputs.

I'm just not sure if I can get away from comfort of tubes as you have found out.

Keep'em Glowing my man.

JRA

Congrats. on the new toy J. I am glad it went well. You could try and locate a Unison Research Unico DM. It has true balanced and single ended inputs. You can run it either as a straight forward stereo amp or as bridged mono. I reckon it would work well with your BAT.
Good luck with the hunt. It's good to have some spare time and catch up with you all.

Peace

:7:

[Mr Peabody]

Bernd, how much power are the Spinx and what price range are they in? It would be interesting to hear their sound, Siltech makes some impressive cables. I wonder how they would compare to other solid state such as Krell or Pass.

It's not the distortion I like about tubes, I do prefer more defined images of solid state, the addicting thing about tubes to me is the presence. It's hard to describe, it's the thing that fools you more into believing the performance is in your room. One guy once said it's "putting the flesh on the bone".

It sounds like everyone is enjoying the hobby though, carry on.

[Bernd]

Bernd, how much power are the Spinx and what price range are they in? It would be interesting to hear their sound, Siltech makes some impressive cables. I wonder how they would compare to other solid state such as Krell or Pass.

It's not the distortion I like about tubes, I do prefer more defined images of solid state, the addicting thing about tubes to me is the presence. It's hard to describe, it's the thing that fools you more into believing the performance is in your room. One guy once said it's "putting the flesh on the bone".

It sounds like everyone is enjoying the hobby though, carry on.

Hi Mr.P.

I don't like distortion either. Putting flesh on the bones is a great way to describe the tube sound. But then again, not all tube gear sounds the same. Some real stinkers about.

No question about the quality of Sphinx amps. As I said, just a bit too clinical for my liking.
Here are some figures for the Project 12:

Powerrating: 150Watt / 8 Ohm

250Watt / 4 Ohm

300Watt / 2 Ohm

Bandwidth: dc - 5 MHz; dc - 300 KHz after inputfiltering

Powerbandwidth: dc - 1,5 MHz; dc - 300 KHz after inputfiltering

Propagationdel.: 103 nSec.

Slewrate: 100 V/uSec.

Dampening: >2000 dc - 300 KHz

THD: < 0.002% 1 Watt 8 Ohm

<0.1% 150 Watt 8 Ohm

Sensitivity: 0,9 Volt = 150 Watt 8 Ohm

And it does sounds that there are some happy audio people about. Carry on indeed.

Peace

Bernd

[bobsticks]

Your cup runneth over with toys...

Cool stuff. I'm not surprised to hear that the Sphinxes weren't your cup of tea, if only because I've come to know yer preferences. Overly analytical aint it. I know you've been a fan of the Unicos, so maybe that'll be the amp de jour.

I'm glad you are treating yourself. All work and no tunes makes Jack a dull boy. Peace bro.

[Bernd]

Your cup runneth over with toys...

Cool stuff. I'm not surprised to hear that the Sphinxes weren't your cup of tea, if only because I've come to know yer preferences. Overly analytical aint it. I know you've been a fan of the Unicos, so maybe that'll be the amp de jour.

I'm glad you are treating yourself. All work and no tunes makes Jack a dull boy. Peace bro.

....., the Sphinx's lay it all open for you with clinical precision. It's great for detail fans, but just not for me.
As an analogy I like a sound somewhere in the middle of a Linn Klimax and CJ Premier 8s. I believe the Unison Research (as most Italien amps I heard do) family sound provides me with just that.I just like to be enveloped in the sound and in the middle of the music. Not so much being transported there, but the musician brought to my room with all the warmth that is needed to give me the illusion, if that makes any sense. Another amp I really like is the Dartzeel. Even though is all solid state. A great amp. Maybe one day.:ihih:
The Sphinx's are not as cold or clinical as the Linn, much more musical though.

Peace your way too

:16:

[Feanor]

....., the Sphinx's lay it all open for you with clinical precision. It's great for detail fans, but just not for me.
...
Peace your way too


You can't have too much real detail, IMO. Real detail reveals itself not as a sharp-edged or etched sound, but as realistic spatial information plus separation of the different instruments & voices, i.e. transparency or "air".

The nice thing about my Monarchy amps is that they deliver the latter without any sharp edge. Nevertheless I think my former, Tripath-based, Bel Canto eVo2 amp had a slight advantage in transparency, however that was only evident on the very best recordings, since the amp did nothing to mitigate poorly recorded sound, or harsh or bright up-stream components.

Now that my music is being effectively filtered though my SF tube preamp, I'd be curious to hear the result though a good digital down-stream, (though I have no thought of replacing the Monarchys).

[jrhymeammo]

From what kinda understand, it is best to mate tube pre with power amps with higher input impedence. 40k or higher? But I'm not really sure why.
Has anyone mated tube pre with amps with say...20k or lower?
I believe my pre would prefer to drive amps with 10K ohm or higher, but I imagine higher the impedence, less strain on overall music..

I'm posting this because I was curious about Bel Canto amps for my VK-3i, but impedence input rating seems a bit lower than CIA D-200 or a pair of PSA A-100 I've been looking at.



also, does anybody know the specs of A-100 when used as mono? I've been searching it for about a week and still no luck.

Sorry about all the questions.

JRA

[Bernd]

[QUOTE=Feanor]You can't have too much real detail, IMO. Real detail reveals itself not as a sharp-edged or etched sound, but as realistic spatial information plus separation of the different instruments & voices, i.e. transparency or "air".

QUOTE]

100%. Bill, I meant to say that I just don't care much for that hard sharp etched detail. I love detail as anybody, in fact I look for it and expect it. I just prefer the musical presentation on the warmer, darker side rather than brightly etched. A balancing act for sure, because if all your system would be voiced that way it would sound pretty dull. It's the balance (or synergy to use an audiophile word) that I find so exciting and important to get right.

Peace

:16:

[Feanor]

From what kinda understand, it is best to mate tube pre with power amps with higher input impedence. 40k or higher? But I'm not really sure why.
Has anyone mated tube pre with amps with say...20k or lower?
I believe my pre would prefer to drive amps with 10K ohm or higher, but I imagine higher the impedence, less strain on overall music..

I'm posting this because I was curious about Bel Canto amps for my VK-3i, but impedence input rating seems a bit lower than CIA D-200 or a pair of PSA A-100 I've been looking at.

also, does anybody know the specs of A-100 when used as mono? I've been searching it for about a week and still no luck.

Sorry about all the questions.

JRA


The old rule of thumb is that input impedance should be 10x output impedance, but some people say that 100x is better. So if the power amp in question is 20K ohms, 200 ohms on the preamp should be no issue, but even 2000 might be satisfactory.

The nice thing about my Monarchys is that they're 100K, so no problem even with my old Adcom in passive mode which was <1200 on the balanced outputs. And no issue for sure with my SF which is 300, balanced.

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks Bill.

I believe I misread specs for my preamp. It has outputs of 1K Ohm instead of 10K. But, what I dont understand is that it's listed for 1K without specifying SE or balanced. I should try to find a manual somewhere for it didnt come with one.

I keep going back to MA website to check out their amps, especially SE160. There is a guy in Cinicy trying to sell his for $1600 a pair, which sounds like a good deal but brand new pair goes for $2K so I'm not quite sure. Also, trying to keep my electricity bill under $70 a month feeling cool.

This has been a great thread.

Peace,

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

Detail is a whole topic in itself. Krell is very good at pulling the info off the disc and letting you hear each detail but it plays each one in almost equal magnitude. Where with my CJ gear some of the detail is more difficult to hear because it's more subtle. Some may prefer what Krell does to be sure nothing is missed. My guess is that what CJ does is probably more like the actual performance because a tap of a Triangle or some other background detail may not have been intended to be heard as loud as the main instrument. Is CJ's presentation of detail due to the depth of the sound stage or does it, give the impression of depth?

Then you have the micro and macro dynamics which to me is almost more important because it provides more textual type information. This is detail as well.

So when people speak of detail are they talking about one system will allow me to hear that background Triangle where another will not or are they talking about this system will allow you to tell you are hearing a violin but the other will allow you to discern the brand, if you had that type of educated ear?

I remember after swapping the CJ into my system I played a Scott Hamilton disc that put some doubt in my mind. On my Krell there was a track where in the beginning of this slow song you could hear Scott's breath through the reed, very prominent. When playing the same track, same CD playback rig, that breath detail was very subtle. I try not to dwell on it or worry about what I'm missing. The CJ also isn't the last word in those bottom octaves. However, with all the trade offs I just find myself enjoying the CJ more when I listen.

Also I'm always amazed at those who say they want detail yet will not spend the money for a high quality CD playback. The detail has to be retrieved before it can be heard through expensive amps and speakers.

Have you noticed any differences in the presentation or type of detail from one system to another or tubes verses your solid state?

[Mr Peabody]

Jrhymeammo, 1k output impedance from a tube pre is a bit high for optimum mating with solid state. I don't know how much actual difference it will make, I just read that 500 or less is preferred.

[jrhymeammo]

Hey P,

Do you own NIN Year Zero?

On track #10, Trend whispers:

" I would never tell you anything that wasnt absolutely true........" In my current system, I cannot understand what he's saying unless I'm reading the booklet. I'm not sure if my speakers dips down on that certain frequency or what, but I'm going to change them to find out. But over all, everyone needs to have a balanced system. I can't imagine Flo play music thru Go-Video as a source player and claiming to hear micro/macro.

[jrhymeammo]

Jrhymeammo, 1k output impedance from a tube pre is a bit high for optimum mating with solid state. I don't know how much actual difference it will make, I just read that 500 or less is preferred.

Maybe for Bel Canto amps, but I think I'll be okay playing amps with 100K inputs. I hope to find out soon and report back.

Thank you,

JRA

[jrhymeammo]

This is what I've been reading from BAT website.



Is the requirement for minimum input resistance dictated by the output resistance of your preamps?

No. However, this is a popular misconception. It is common to apply some old rules-of -thumb to things like preamplifier to power amplifier interfaces and state that there should be some magic ratio between the output resistance of the preamp and the input resistance of its load. People commonly mention numbers in the 10:1 or 20:1 area, some as high as 100:1. Unfortunately, there is no truth to such claims. As many of us know, one can perfectly transmit a signal in a system where the load impedance is equal or even lower than the source impedance (witness any cable TV system). The unusual design of Balanced Audio Technology's preamplifiers allows their gain stages to drive loads with resistance much below what their specified output resistance ratings would imply. For example, the VK-50SE preamplifier can supply a load with 65mA peak current - an amount well beyond that of the great majority of preamplifiers on the market today. However, it is also important to understand the role of the output coupling capacitor, present at the output of BAT preamplifiers. It is the size of this capacitor that will dictate the minimum power amplifier input impedance, not the output resistance of the preamp.

[Mr Peabody]

Interesting. I wonder if it's a myth entirely or just with BAT preamps. I wish I can remember where I read the recommended impedance. But when I was looking into tube gear I was doing what you are, a lot of research. If I run across it I'll post a link.

[Feanor]

Detail is a whole topic in itself. Krell is very good at pulling the info off the disc and letting you hear each detail but it plays each one in almost equal magnitude. Where with my CJ gear some of the detail is more difficult to hear because it's more subtle.
...
Then you have the micro and macro dynamics which to me is almost more important because it provides more textual type information. This is detail as well.

So when people speak of detail are they talking about one system will allow me to hear that background Triangle where another will not or are they talking about this system will allow you to tell you are hearing a violin but the other will allow you to discern the brand, if you had that type of educated ear?
....

Have you noticed any differences in the presentation or type of detail from one system to another or tubes verses your solid state?

Mr.P, interesting comment about the subtlety of detail. Describing it that way rings true in my case. My Monarchys aren't tube, rather high class A-biased with zero global and power stage feedback. But they are definitely "subtler" than my Bel Canto and maybe I'm confusing this with slightly less transparency (... though I doubt it). The former are certainly smoother, less "edgy" than the latter, at least on bright recordings -- but Bel never sounded grainy or rough and was just about perfect on good recordings.

With the latest, Amperex tubes in my SF preamp I'm noticing a greater sense of depth than ever before. I have often hear people say that tubes do this, but is it greater accuracy or an artifact, I wonder? Does sound nice in any case.

[jrhymeammo]

I ended up commiting to PS Audio HCA-2 amp on Agon.

It has input impedence of 100K, so I dont think it would be terribly mismatched.
Now I gotta decide whether to go with MG12 or 1.6QR. Let the journey begin..

Thanks again for all the info.

[basite]

1.6 QR's are a big step up from 12's (I've heard them both)

they need their room but then again, so do my advents, and it works in my small room too...

[Feanor]

I ended up commiting to PS Audio HCA-2 amp on Agon.

It has input impedence of 100K, so I dont think it would be terribly mismatched.
Now I gotta decide whether to go with MG12 or 1.6QR. Let the journey begin..

Thanks again for all the info.

I haven't heard the HCA-2's but by all reports they are very decent digital amp and a bargain at the new or used price. Like I said, now that I have the tube preamp, I wish I could once again hear the my former digital amp.

I had to decide whether to go MG12 or 1.6QR when I decide to upgrade from the MMG. Basically I figured the MG12 was an uninspired compromise between MMG and the 1.6. Stretch for the 1.6 if you can, and you'll never look back: they are one of the truely great bargains in hifi.

[jrhymeammo]

Yeah, I've also heard them side by side in a room that is much smaller than mine. I thought the difference are very noticablle, but 12s are great without a doubt.
I'm gonna head up to the store again this weekend with some music that they would never play at the store and think about it more.

Only down side is that the system is driven with ARCAM, and they are not on the warmer side.
I should save around $100 cuz I'm gonna have my friend from out of state buy'em for me. F' da state 'ssales tax is what I say.

How big is your room Feanor?

-J

[bobsticks]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, waitaminnut...Jayra's going with digital amps and panel speakers? What's the world coming to?

Congrats on making the decision to change up the system. This is pretty well polar opposites as far as sound goes I would think, but that's what it's all about-- celebrating and enjoying the diversity in playback styles.

Quite obviously I've lost track of your meanderings. Are you going with tubes in the preamp section?

[jrhymeammo]

Sure did, but I thoughtchu knew.

four 6DJ8/6922/ECC88 and a pair of 6V6 is in my BAT pre.

but that's what it's all about-- celebrating and enjoying the diversity in playback styles

Exactly!! I'll probably go with a pair of 300B monoblocks and some truly ugly speakers after Maggies.

I got PSA, cuz well.... I have to try it out for myself.

[jrhymeammo]

I went ahead with 1.6QR in black with dark cherry trims. Everythin should come in by next friday or so. Will see how they sound, but I'm not expecting much outta 1.6QR$ straight outta box.

Now, let's get back to discussing rolling tubes!!

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

JRA - I'm happy for you. I hope the new additions brings you satisfaction.

[basite]

indeed, I hope they bring you a big upgrade over the triangles you have now (I'm pretty sure they will).

congrats man,

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Feanor]

I went ahead with 1.6QR in black with dark cherry trims. Everythin should come in by next friday or so. Will see how they sound, but I'm not expecting much outta 1.6QR$ straight outta box.

Now, let's get back to discussing rolling tubes!!

JRA

:thumbsup: I think you'll love 'em, though they aren't hard rockers. I won't take a long time to burn them in. The PS Audio should give sufficient power, and I love to hear the combo with the BAT.

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks Gents,

I can't wait for gears to come in next week.

I auditioned them with 130 wattish Arcam in SE hookup and thought it was going to blow me out of the room, but never sounded harsh. I'm pretty sure 1.6QR will rock more than what my neighbors will allow. I just hope my REL can somewhat keep up with them.

JRA

[bobsticks]

That's gonna be a nice combo, Jayra and hopefully will have good synergy between the components and the room. I look forward to a review. I suspect that the inability to be "hard rockers" will be a non-issue when your beloved jazz starts to cascade forth from them new beauties.

[O'Shag]

The paradox of tube/valve gear for the average earner with other financial responsibilities;

Expensive because you have to think about tube life, and if you have amps/preamps like myself the cost and hassle will prohibit your using the tubed electronics as freely as you would solid-state.

Innefficient in terms of energy converted to heat. My monoblocks idle at high wattage and throw off considerble heat. This means they have to be allowed to breathe, and not shoved in a cabinet with inadequate ventilation.

Many tube amps do not have the power to drive less efficient speakers (especially in bass due to lower damping factor) as well as more solid-state amplifiers.
They have to be handled with care, or tubes can be blown.

The addiction to tube rolliing starts, and that gets very expensive.


Yes, tube/valve amps can be a pain in the neck. Problem is that the better tube preamps or amps posess a magic in the midrange that can leave you in tears listening to music you love. My Audio Research Classic 150s and Classic 120s driven by the MFA MC Reference preamp with either digital or analogue souce (especially analogue) do that, but the cost is that I'll be looking at minimum $600 to do a re-tube , and thats doing it myself..

[Feanor]

The paradox of tube/valve gear for the average earner with other financial responsibilities;

Expensive because you have to think about tube life, and if you have amps/preamps like myself the cost and hassle will prohibit your using the tubed electronics as freely as you would solid-state.

Innefficient in terms of energy converted to heat. My monoblocks idle at high wattage and throw off considerble heat. This means they have to be allowed to breathe, and not shoved in a cabinet with inadequate ventilation.

Many tube amps do not have the power to drive less efficient speakers (especially in bass due to lower damping factor) as well as more solid-state amplifiers.
They have to be handled with care, or tubes can be blown.

...

Valid points, O',

You could say that tubes aren't "family friendly" devices -- keep the wife and kids away; (sorry, lady audiophiles out there: I realize it's a stereotype).

You really need standard, s/s fare for the family HT, etc.

[Mr Peabody]

O'Shag have you heard any recent ARC models? If so, have you noticed a difference in the newer gear's sound compared to the older ARC?

I usually won't fire my tubes up unless I have a minimum of an hour or so to listen. Considering warm up and a minimum of time to make it worth running them.....

[O'Shag]

Feanor and Mr. Peabody, Top of the evening.. (or should that be bottom of the eveining??)
Bill, nice system. I like the diagram drawing also. I'll post pics of my system soon along with a diagram. BTW, Technics are coming out with a reel to reel thats supposed to be state of the art, even better than vinyl.

Mr. Peabody, I have heard some of the newer ARC gear; Ref2MK1, Ref3, 210amps and they're great. Honestly though, I love the sound of my Classic 150s and 120s. They are a hybrid monaural design, starting with an all-fet input stage with eight 6550 power output tubes operating in triode config. They have awesome power and dynamics, a huge soundstage, infinitesimal detail, and never sound hard on the ears - and thats important to me. You could say they are more akin to your CJ MV60s than the newer ARC stuff would be, which lacks a little of the glow in the midrange. I do love CJ as well. Best of both worlds to me. I've owned amps with lots of everything but they grate on the old nerves after 10 minutes. Very nice system by the way. Isn't EAD now out of business. Awful shame if its true.

[Mr Peabody]

EAD is out of business and their digital products are a steal on the used market. I love this transport. I thought about finding another just to hang on to.

The reason I asked about ARC is years ago I heard one of their preamps with a VT100 and it was incredible driving a pair of Martin Logan Requests. The presence was haunting. About a year or so ago I started getting interested in tubes and went back to listen to some ARC. It did not sound like I remembered. I even brought home, I think it was a LS16, and their 150 digital power amp. I didn't care for the sound. I did hear their $10k pre into some Classe monoblocks driving the flagship B&W D series. The system was naturally pretty good but it didn't wow me to the point I would have bought it if I had the money. But I also am not a big fan of the newer Classe sound either. The sales manager liked to use tube pre and SS power. When I was putting my tube gear together, everything didn't click until it was all tube. There's trade offs and maybe the mix works better with the right match of SS an tube.

[jrhymeammo]

but I'm curious, what would it take to make it a 5/5 on overall rating? More tube like sound with standard Sovtek?

My pre came with Sovtek 6922 as well, and that's what I'm using at this moment. I think they sound warm with a hint of "tube" like sound. Of course I'm thinking about rolling with some tubes, but I think I'm just sit back on this one for a bit.

JRA

[nightflier]

JRA,

Sorry, I've been lurking, since Tubes are not really on the menu at our house (kids, cats, and not enough $). I am, however, a big PS Audio fan and am really curious to hear how the Maggies will sound with the HCA-2. I tried the little MMG's with this amp and honestly, I was not impressed and sold them. I've heard varying estimates for burn-in time on these, so I may not have given them enough, but I also didn't hear them improve in the time that I had them, so I decided to cut my losses.

On the preamp side, I'm still using my old Plinius CD-LAD which is rather analytical, although I really do like the transparency. Besides, in my budget range (max $1500) it is still the best sounding preamp I have yet had in my system. It beat the PCA-2 hands down, and even sounded better than the newer GCP-200, to my ears. I've also tried a few others, but haven't found anything.

If I had to go tubes, I would probably go with a used VTL. They seem to have the sound that most matches my preference and I like their motto of making tubes likeable. Ideally I would like tube sound w/o going tubes, but so far all the companies that have promised that (Pass, Marsh, Classe, etc.) have not really delivered, and I've had to sell a lot of gear to stay in the game...

Of course, almost everything I've tried has been used, so maybe there may have been some defective gear in there. Anyhow, let us know how you like the HCA-2 & Maggies.

[jrhymeammo]

My Maggs are sounding great right now. They do not sound like sound is being forced out, and it is very dynamic with my HCA-2. I'm positive that my speakers would sound better with other amps, but for around $700 I'm truly satisifed, but I do need to get a pair of different XLR.

I think I've had about 20-30 hours on 1.6s, and bass has improved quite well, and highs are alot smoother now. Not sure how they'll sound by the time September comes around.

[basite]

nightflier, a very good tube pre is a primaluna prologue 3, it falls right in your budget (it costs $1395) and is considered to outclass alot of preamps costing more than that...

just FYI...

[Mr Peabody]

Musicdirect is also carrying Cary's lower line, Audio Electric, which is supposed to be good quality tube gear built to compete with the flood of Chinese imports.

I have truly been impressed with my CJ pv14ls2. I wish I had the chance to compare it with BAT or other gear. I didn't hear it with the same power amp but I preferred my pv14 much more so than the ARC ls16. I'm not sure what a pv14ls2 goes for used. There is a pv14 but the pv14ls2 is an improved version.

[jrhymeammo]

I'm happy with my BAT, but I'm curious to how AES preamp would've sounded. There's AE-3 on Agon right now for $425. That could be fun, but I would be more curious for AE-3 DJH signature. I think AES came out with newer versions of equipments, so I imagine AES preamps would be roaming aroud quite a bit.

Sixpacs could be fun, but that's another topic.

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

My guess is overall the AES pre would not sound as good as your BAT. I'd love to hear the 6-Paks because they are 60 watts of triode power. This is the first triode amp I've seen that powerful.

[jrhymeammo]

My guess is overall the AES pre would not sound as good as your BAT. I hope so, but that may not be the case. But having two sets of pre-outs is nice compared to just a pair on AES.


I'd love to hear the 6-Paks because they are 60 watts of triode power. This is the first triode amp I've seen that powerful.
I would be more interested in how it sounds in UL setting. Tell us how they compare to your CJ monoblocks:D
Speaking of 6-Pacs, I'm already interested in how BAT Six-Pak upgrade could impact my system. It's either that or phono stage.

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

I said I'd love to hear the 6-Paks, I didn't say I was going to hear them:)

[nightflier]

My Maggs are sounding great right now....

Wow, I'll have to get a pair of those 1.6's and check this out for myself. Of course, when you change out multiple components, it's hard to know which one made the most difference, but it does seem like you've got quite an upgrade going in the whole system.


nightflier, a very good tube pre is a primaluna prologue 3, it falls right in your budget (it costs $1395) and is considered to outclass alot of preamps costing more than that...

Yes, I've heard some good stuff about it. But who makes PrimaLuna? Do they have a website? Agon says it lists for about $1300 used, but all the times I've seen it, the price was a bit higher, which does imply that it's a good value. I've also had my eye on that new Prologue 8 CD player, but I doubt it will be out on the used market any time soon.


Musicdirect is also carrying Cary's lower line, Audio Electric, which is supposed to be good quality tube gear built to compete with the flood of Chinese imports.

Yes, I've seen a number of Chinese "imports" on eBay - they sell for as low as a few dollars, but shipping is a whopping $300! I can't say I haven't been tempted, but you never know how legit the business is. With regards to MusicDirect, I presume you're referring to Audio Electronics, right? I didn't know they were part of Cary - that certainly sounds a little more trustworthy. Although if they want to compete, they should probably lower their prices somewhat, for a relatively new brand they are a bit on the pricey side of the equation.


I have truly been impressed with my CJ pv14ls2. I wish I had the chance to compare it with BAT or other gear. I didn't hear it with the same power amp but I preferred my pv14 much more so than the ARC ls16. I'm not sure what a pv14ls2 goes for used.

The PV-14LS2 lists at $1300-ish used, which is definitely within my budget. I suspect that the better Conrad gear is probably on par with VTL, which still garners lots of drool-points in my book. Regarding ARC, and I'll probably get blasted for saying this, I've read on multiple occasions (in Hi-Fi+ most recently) that they are not as above-the-pale as they used to be - and the pricing is more reflective of past performance than present standouts.

Getting back to amps, I'm still a fan of monoblocks, something that PS Audio relinquishes to "dual mono" capabilities (while the HCA-2 only has shared stereo capabilities). I really don't consider that to be comparable to true monoblock sound. Moreover, with lower-output tube gear, I think it's almost a necessity to have dual-mono, especially when driving Maggies. My guess is that true monoblocks, even if they can only put out 100-200W each, will offer a better sound every time.

The other factor I've noticed is the drive to reduce the size of components. With the incessant iPod craze and the desire for unobtrusive in-wall speakers, it seems the industry is bending in that direction, however objectionable that may be to most of us here. Fact is, the most efficient way to do this is with digital amps. There are just too many advantages there (power, heat, control, speed, etc.), especially now that the technology is mature enough. I've had my eye on a small company called NuForce for some time now and their Ref. 9 amp not only satisfies the cuteness-factor of the iPod crowd, but does this at a svelte 7 pounds in a half-width 1U fire-red painted little box that cranks out 300W! Other companies like PS Audio, Ayre, and others are following this trend as well, and, dare I say it, the age of the heavy break-your-back-to-move-it room-heater amp may be ending.

Now I don't know how well that NuForce amp will drive a pair of Maggies (maybe someone can chime in?), but if someone invents a tube-sounding chip add-on to these amps, it may well become a revolution. And in this hobby, isn't it time for a water-shed type change?

OK, I got my slickers on, let the crap hit the fan...

[Mr Peabody]

I am glad to hear that my personal assessment of recent ARC is on par with others.

I have only heard a few of the digital switching amps and the Linn is good, the T+A is very good. However, in my limited experience there seems to be an edginess to the highs that appears to be common. The T+A does the best job of smoothing but in a side by side with Krell, the Krell highs were more natural. But the cost difference would have made most people tolerate the crisp highs. At least in the 2 systems I compared. T+A is not what I would call affordable by any means.

I thought for an American made tube gear, quality withstanding, the Audio Electronics was priced pretty good. I haven't done direct comparison but I thought it was in there with Cayin, PrimaLuna, ASL and the like.

[basite]

Yes, I've heard some good stuff about it. But who makes PrimaLuna? Do they have a website? Agon says it lists for about $1300 used, but all the times I've seen it, the price was a bit higher, which does imply that it's a good value. I've also had my eye on that new Prologue 8 CD player, but I doubt it will be out on the used market any time soon.

they retail at about $1395 in the USA, and I too have only read good things about it.
Their site is http://www.primaluna.nl (it's a dutch brand), all the products are point to point wiring, using good audiograde caps & stuff like that. Definately worth the money :)


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Feanor]

they retail at about $1395 in the USA, and I too have only read good things about it.
Their site is http://www.primaluna.nl (it's a dutch brand), all the products are point to point wiring, using good audiograde caps & stuff like that. Definately worth the money :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Esthetically, I hate those shallow boxes with a forest of tubes and transformers on top. Prima Luna, Cary, Manley, AES, Boo!! BAT, ARC, Sonic Frontiers, Yea!!

Conrad Johnson are a category of their own, and to my feeble eye, amongst the ugliest product out there. (Sorry, Mr. P.)

[nightflier]

Their site is http://www.primaluna.nl (it's a dutch brand)...

So they cost as much new as used? Well that's a good thing, I presume. Ironically I was just in The Netherlands this past x-mas. If only I would have known. By the way, the Dutch pedigree is probably not a bad thing. Engineering-wise there's a lot of good stuff that comes from there, and the audiophile community is critical and has deep pockets. Wonder what it would cost to buy there, second hand. Does anyone know if the PlimaLuna 3 has a user-adjustable 115-220v switch or easily modifiable jumper? By the way, that website is really crappy, maybe I spoke too quickly about their engineering acumen.


Esthetically, I hate those shallow boxes with a forest of tubes and transformers on top. Prima Luna, Cary, Manley, AES, Boo!! BAT, ARC, Sonic Frontiers, Yea!!

Well, I think that the tubes-on-top look is for those who really want everyone to know they have tubes. And it's probably more economical to design since there's no heat sinks, fans, or heat-dissipating materials to worry about. But I do agree that I prefer the tubes on the inside as well. I don't really care for the light show and maybe I'm exaggerating this, but the thought of exposed hot glass doesn't really make me feel safe, either. The last thing I would want is my 2-year old to put his fingers on that glowing bright tube when I'm not paying attention. Of course it does make rolling tubes easier....

[Mr Peabody]

Ouch! what a shot. No, I really am not a good judge of what looks good and that never enters my mind when buying audio equipment. I do have to say I dislike how the front panel jets up on the left side of my power amps, it doesn't add to the look and it is in the way when I want to remove the top cover. I have to pull the amp mostly out of the shelf to take it off. Thankfully that doesn't have to happen much.
Have you all seen Shanling? I understand some of their pieces look great. I hope they sound great as well because they are more expensive, closer to American made gear prices. Well.... second thought, that Blue Circle stuff would have to knock my socks off in order to have something that looks like that.

[Feanor]

Ouch! what a shot. No, I really am not a good judge of what looks good and that never enters my mind when buying audio equipment. ....
Have you all seen Shanling? I understand some of their pieces look great. I hope they sound great as well because they are more expensive, closer to American made gear prices. Well.... second thought, that Blue Circle stuff would have to knock my socks off in order to have something that looks like that.

No offence, Mr. P. I do kind of like the gold/champagne color of CJ, and the some of classic models and the current PV15 preamp, for example, are pretty nice.

Blue Circle stuff looks very DIY -- inside as well as outside -- but people who own them seem to love them.

As for Shangling, gorgeous sort of, but some models are 'way over the top to my eye
...

[basite]

So they cost as much new as used? Well that's a good thing, I presume. Ironically I was just in The Netherlands this past x-mas. If only I would have known. By the way, the Dutch pedigree is probably not a bad thing. Engineering-wise there's a lot of good stuff that comes from there, and the audiophile community is critical and has deep pockets. Wonder what it would cost to buy there, second hand. Does anyone know if the PlimaLuna 3 has a user-adjustable 115-220v switch or easily modifiable jumper? By the way, that website is really crappy, maybe I spoke too quickly about their engineering acumen.


their gear costs more here than it does in the USA, dunno why though, everything here is more expensive here than it is in the USA for some reason :)

btw, don't worry about the exposure to hot glass, it comes with a good cover for the tubes :)

[Bernd]

their gear costs more here than it does in the USA, dunno why though, everything here is more expensive here than it is in the USA for some reason :)

btw, don't worry about the exposure to hot glass, it comes with a good cover for the tubes :)

Hi Bert,

The reason is that the US is a much bigger market then rip-off europe with the U.K. at the top of that league. It's not too bad at the moment with the decent exchange rate, but will the dealer pass the savings on. Will they hell like.:mad5: I just received a package of some 20 records from a US dealer and even with the p&p and tax it's cheaper than buying here at the moment. Go figure.:skep:
Anyway rant over. I feel better now.
By the way I have listened to a couple of Prima Lunas and found them very good if a little polite. But paired with a lively front end and speakers it will make a great musical system.

Peace

:7:

[basite]

yeah, good rant...

I should start to experiment with ordering my records online...


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[RGA]

Well feaner you can just look who it is and you know what I am going to mention. Hold the suspense.....drum roll after months away form this site.....yes an Audio Note preamp. hahaha.

I am looking into the M3 KIt preamp when I come back to Canada - it's balanced and it is truly balanced. I think it runs slightly over your budget and it does not have a remote -- but I was like that too because I always had a remote but really you only use it for volume - I simply adjust the volume when I am putting the new LP or CD on anyway so in about a week you'll never miss it.

Kits generally provide you better parts comparable pre made gear -- and for a small fee they will build it for you anyway I believe. It does not look anything special - no exciting tubes showing. This is apparently a very new kit so by the time I get back to Canada there will be more info on it. Could suck with SS power amps for all I know though. http://www.audionotekits.com/line.html

[Feanor]

Well feaner you can just look who it is and you know what I am going to mention. Hold the suspense.....drum roll after months away form this site.....yes an Audio Note preamp. hahaha.
...
Kits generally provide you better parts comparable pre made gear -- and for a small fee they will build it for you anyway I believe. It does not look anything special - no exciting tubes showing. This is apparently a very new kit so by the time I get back to Canada there will be more info on it. Could suck with SS power amps for all I know though. http://www.audionotekits.com/line.html

Nice to hear from you -- we've missed you around here since you've been in Japan. I gather you're not back yet, but I hope you've had a great sojourn over there.

It's a pity that there are not more kits available. In my many years of hifi involvement I've built at least five kits, not without some aggravations along the way, but I got them all working despite my lack of any electrical knowledge. The AN's look like pretty slick units, and no doubt good value relative to the factory products, (assuming DIY assembly). With my restricted budget these days, (two kids in college), I rely on used equipment to keep the cost down. But of the AN kits I'd be most likely to consider the DAC 1.1.

Personally I'd miss a remote control: there's too much variation in recording levels to rely in pre-adjustment for so many recordings. Nowadays too, I queue up quite a few selections in iTunes and there will be quite a lot of recording level variation, so I'd be up off my duff 'way too often.

Anyway, I've no doubt folks around here are looking forward to your greater participation upon your return from the far side.

[jrhymeammo]

since i do not know anything about it. But why not AN? Where are the specs though...?

Welcome back!!!

Be sure to pick up Onzow Zerodust for $15, if you havent already. I got mine at Disk Union along with bags of LP.

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

Hi RGA, good to hear from you and looking forward to your return.

AN, not long ago put out a couple single box CD players. They have one at $2,500.00 that is supposed to have the 1.1x DAC in it. If this is truely the 1.1x DAC, this is an exceptional value because AN's transports are pretty expensive. I feel at full retail the 1.1x is a good value. It sounds incredible.

[RGA]

since i do not know anything about it. But why not AN? Where are the specs though...?

Welcome back!!!

Be sure to pick up Onzow Zerodust for $15, if you havent already. I got mine at Disk Union along with bags of LP.

JRA

AN almost never posts specs on anything. Being a SET maker what would be the point?

[RGA]

Hi RGA, good to hear from you and looking forward to your return.

AN, not long ago put out a couple single box CD players. They have one at $2,500.00 that is supposed to have the 1.1x DAC in it. If this is truely the 1.1x DAC, this is an exceptional value because AN's transports are pretty expensive. I feel at full retail the 1.1x is a good value. It sounds incredible.


Thanks - I had heard about it -- I went to the site and looked it up more closely. The 4.1x / II looks interesting. Something tells me it will be more than double the $2500.00 but one can dream. http://www.audionote.co.uk/news/article_dig_07-03_cd_players.shtml

[Bernd]

.....I will resurect this interesting thread with the promised findings on the Tungsram 6922.
I have been a Tungsram fan for a while in using ECC83s and 82s alongside my trusted Telefunkens and Siemens and Halske.
The 6922s went into the Steelhead to replace the S&H CCa. I left the Tungsol 5687s unchanged.
The first thing that struck me was a touch more warmth. Which was very pleasant and made some modern recordings almost listenible. The Tungsrams are also completly silent and detailed as are the S$H (also the S&H wins on detail retrievel). The Tungsram has slightly less HF extension, but again that can be a good thing with modern recrodings as it removes some of the glare the S&H can add through it's superb clarity and detail retrievel.
So a tough call really. In an ideal world I would like a hybrid between these two, They are very close to one another, yet display differences.
Both are however highly recommended.
I am still trying to find some Amperex 7308s white label to try out. Missed a great pair on the bay recently due to a hectic few weeks.

Peace

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