Subwoofer for Reciever without Sub connections

[EnterDaMatrix]

Hi, just bought a Onkyo TX-930 for my room. It's pretty low grade but I only need it for listening. Anyway it doesn't have a sub out and I was wondering what kind of sub I should buy and how I should connect it. My speakers are ADC L300Cs. Thanks.

[MikeyBC]

Just buy a powered sub with speaker level inputs, the subs amp and internal crossover will do the rest.

[spasticteapot]

Hi, just bought a Onkyo TX-930 for my room. It's pretty low grade but I only need it for listening. Anyway it doesn't have a sub out and I was wondering what kind of sub I should buy and how I should connect it. My speakers are ADC L300Cs. Thanks.

Do you mean ADS L300C's? If so, good stuff. People pay too much for them, but they're good stuff regardless.

Speaker-level subwoofer input is generally a bad thing. You're usually better using a line-level output from your reciever to the line-level inputs on the subwoofer. Often, subwoofer amps have seperate left and right channel inputs.

However, I'd just upgrade your speakers first. As a rule of thumb, subwoofers are ill-suited to music - they're really better for home theater use.

For inexpensive speakers with good bass, you'll likely want some great big old transmission lines, like these:

http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/db61tl/default.html

Although the listed price of $200/pair is a little nasty, the cost for the drivers is actually only about $70. Most of the cost is from the crossovers (over $70 for the pair!) and assorted frivolous bits, like speaker spikes. If you re-use inductors from old speakers (they last forever) and get good-quality, cheap capacitors from a place like apexjr.com, you can build the pair for about $100 plus the cost of wood.

These should also give bass better than most sub-$100 subwoofers, the design is all ready to use (crossover parts, if of the right values, should make no difference), and should last for many, many years.

An amplifier upgrade is also in order.


A good option with recievers is to go for old-school stuff - audiokarma.org is the place to go. While inferior to modern high-end recievers, a good vintage reciever like a Sansui 7900AU will kick the crap out of anything you'll find new for less than $500 - and you can get one for much, much less. With a little work and some Caig DeOxit, you can get some amazing quality out of a beat-up old reciever.

Alternately, DIYing is not as hard as you'd think. A chipamp.com gainclone kit will run you $65 plus the cost of transformer and other bits - however, it's not hard to build the whole thing for under $100 if you're as much of a cheap-arse as I am. An even better option is one of the 41hz kits - while even the through-hole kits are a bit tricky to solder, they can be used with surplus industrial power supplies, which are very cheap.

[markw]

You're usually better using a line-level output from your reciever to the line-level inputs on the subwoofer. Often, subwoofer amps have seperate left and right channel inputs.I prefer line level myself, but not all receivers offer this option.


As a rule of thumb, subwoofers are ill-suited to music - they're really better for home theater use.Not true at all. It all depends on how you integrate them unto the system. If one has a pair of good speakers that only lack in the low end, by properly integrating a sub into the system to take over wherethe mains drop off can do wonders.

And, that speaker you point to as an example sure is nifty and upon first glance looks great, but you assume one has the skills an and tools required to build an enclosure.

[JGD]

Ill suited to music? Line level usually better than high impedance inputs? Music benifits greatly from a good sub integrated properly. Essential is a GOOD sub. REL, maker of, IMO, the best subs, reccomends high level inputs so the sub carries on the tone, of the main power amp. Of course, if your amp is crappy, then your sub will sound the same. A sub will point out weaknesses in your other componets. A good sub requires a good system to begin with. Then a lot of adjustment to sound good. A good sub can't be adjusted in a matter of minutes. Also, music that has unnatural bass content, as a lot of todays music, will not sound right.

Jim

[AudioBack]

I'm not familiar with ADS speakers or even the size of the 300's. However the only correct way to hook up a sub, especialy for just music is through a sub output. I know that home sub amps have like three different ways to hookem up, but one is really the only way to hook up a sub. The high level inputs are the way you would hook your sub up to your current receiver. The huge problem with that is that your main speakers will be doing full bandwidth and doing the same frequencies as the sub. This will lead to hills and dips caused by frequency overlaping and cancelation. You have a few options that are sure to put a smile on your face when you listen. You can do what Spastic said above, and ge't speakers that don't require a sub. Or get a line level high pass filter and run it through your tape loop or better yet pre-main couplers if your receiver has them. Lastly get a Dolby Digital receiver that can high pass your main speakers. No matter the size of your mains (big or small) If you cannot high pass your mains, your bass will suck if you add a sub. Plus if you're planning on getting a cheap sub like less than 200 bucks, it won't add anything to what a good full range floor stander can already do.

[markw]

I'm not familiar with ADS speakers or even the size of the 300's. However the only correct way to hook up a sub, especialy for just music is through a sub output.Sorry, you're dead wrong. Experience has proven you wrong. There is more than one way to skin a cat, or so thay say at the Chinese restaurant up the sreet.

Believe it ot not, there are quite a few people here with more real world experience in this field than you can even begin to imagine. You might do well to sit back and learn a little. Most of us are here to help people grow in this hobby, not scare them off by saying something won't work when it will.

FWIW, most "real" music only systems don't even have a sub out. My guess is you've never even seen one. And, from your diatriabe here, it's quite obvious you have NO idea of what he's dealing with or what you're suggesting. Running a sub through a tape monitor is one of the miost asenine suggestions I've ever heard.

[AudioBack]

I'm not gonna argue with you. You abviously have nothing better to do but bash everyones ideas but your own. You're not worth the time. Running a sub through a tape monitor........is that what I wrote? You just proved to me that your unable to read. I'm an AR newbie, but far more experienced than just the 20 posts I have placed on this site. The sad part is that you've been spewing the garbage you just wrote since 2001. You seem to have alot of experience writing nothing that's usefull in forums rather than experience "IN THIS FIELD". You can't even explain why I'm wrong like you say. Ofcourse this is due to your inability to read. The only thing you had to say is that "EXPERIENCE HAS PROVED YOU WRONG!" Let me talk to Mr. Experience, I'm intrested on hear what he has to say. Can he tell me about REAL music systems? Can he tell me why sound travels differently when you have a music only system? Can I please hear about this REAL WORLD experience? Because obviously everything I've seen and heard exists only in fantasy land. I guess my system and others that I've set up don't exist. I had NO IDEA. Please shower me with your wisdom Mr. 2,288 posts. Lets hear some of that real world knowledge.

[markw]

I'm not gonna argue with you. Good. You ain't worth my time.

"However the only correct way to hook up a sub, especialy for just music is through a sub output."

Well now, just because that's the only way YOU know how to do it "correctly", that doesn't mean that's the only way it can be successfully accompolished. It's obvious you've never successfully connected one to a stereo. That's all rignt. We've (inclding me) have talked many through this. Stick around, lurk a little and learn. You'll be surprised at how much you don't know.

If you really, really want to try to show how smart you think you are, a good place to start is to see what the kid's running. Then see what you have to offer him as far as help and encouragement. All you have to say to him is "you can't get there from here". Nice guy...

As it now stands, you don't know enough to even be worthy of my time. You're just another snot nosed little newbiesnob who only parrots what they read in the audiorags. I was playing the audio game, both professionally and as a hobby, since before you were a wet spot on yer daddy's inseam.

[AudioBack]

I guess Mr. Experience couldn't make it in today. You said exactly what I thought you'd say. I shouldn't have left you an out by telling you I wasn't going to argue with you. I knew you would then be too GOOD to waist your advanced knowledge about why the laws of physics stop working when you build a system for music only. I was really looking forward to hearing why that is. I guess I just burned that bridge.

EnterDaMatrix, I must apologize. I didn't mean to leave you in this cruel dark world of sound without a life line to get out of the depths of being an AR newbie and into a sonic GAINT like Mr. Markw. Everyone knows that this audio stuff is life threatening and you'll shurely die if you do not study under Markw.

Does this make you Happy? I'm sure he was greatly offended by the way I just pulled the carpet out from underneath him and said that "HE CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE" You're a kind person for sticking up for him like that...and calling him a kid and all. When infact you don't stick up for anyone but yourself and your cause.

As for you doing this as a PROFESSION? I knew you would say that too. Even if that is true, there are alot of people who do jobs that totaly suck at them. Or perhaps you worked in the home audio section at Best Buy and sold people extended warranties on speakers that have 5 year warranties. You have still proved nothing. Just because I don't jump all over people in a FORUM of all places to make others think that my knowledge is vastly superior to theirs doesn't mean I don't know what's going on. It just means I'm a better person than you are thats all. You and morons like you WANT to be famous and have respect of others. Its just that you can't get it face to face, so you get on an audio forum and bark alot about how much you know and accumulate tons of post and then call yourself elite. You're not quite Dr. House, you can't get away with being a jerk yet. You have to actually know something first and then you can be a jerk.

[markw]

I guess Mr. Experience couldn't make it in today. You said exactly what I thought you'd say. I shouldn't have left you an out by telling you I wasn't going to argue with you. I knew you would then be too GOOD to waist your advanced knowledge about why the laws of physics stop working when you build a system for music only. I was really looking forward to hearing why that is. I guess I just burned that bridge.

EnterDaMatrix, I must apologize. I didn't mean to leave you in this cruel dark world of sound without a life line to get out of the depths of being an AR newbie and into a sonic GAINT like Mr. Markw. Everyone knows that this audio stuff is life threatening and you'll shurely die if you do not study under Markw.

Does this make you Happy? I'm sure he was greatly offended by the way I just pulled the carpet out from underneath him and said that "HE CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE" You're a kind person for sticking up for him like that...and calling him a kid and all. When infact you don't stick up for anyone but yourself and your cause.

As for you doing this as a PROFESSION? I knew you would say that too. Even if that is true, there are alot of people who do jobs that totaly suck at them. Or perhaps you worked in the home audio section at Best Buy and sold people extended warranties on speakers that have 5 year warranties. You have still proved nothing. Just because I don't jump all over people in a FORUM of all places to make others think that my knowledge is vastly superior to theirs doesn't mean I don't know what's going on. It just means I'm a better person than you are thats all. You and morons like you WANT to be famous and have respect of others. Its just that you can't get it face to face, so you get on an audio forum and bark alot about how much you know and accumulate tons of post and then call yourself elite. You're not quite Dr. House, you can't get away with being a jerk yet. You have to actually know something first and then you can be a jerk.Go ahead, Let it all out. You'll feel better once you get them all out for all to see.

Hey. we're all wrong once and a while, but most of us are man enough to admit it. By your flopping around like a hooked fish on a dock you just draw more attention to yourself.

BTW, I neither want or need your respect. So, I guess we're even, eh? ;)

[AudioBack]

"Hey. we're all wrong once and a while, but most of us are man enough to admit it. By your flopping around like a hooked fish on a dock you just draw more attention to yourself."

The fact that you're still watching this post and responding to mine so quickly shows that you're full of sh*t..

[markw]

I guess Mr. Experience couldn't make it in today. You said exactly what I thought you'd say. I shouldn't have left you an out by telling you I wasn't going to argue with you.Yeah, I can see you're good for your word.


I knew you would then be too GOOD to waist your advanced knowledge about why the laws of physics stop working when you build a system for music only.Hey, why should I "waist" my time trying to tell you anything. You're comfortable with your fairy tales. Just don't come here and try foisting them off as gospel.


I was really looking forward to hearing why that is. I guess I just burned that bridge. You can check the other posts or, better yet, why not argue wit h the manufacturers of subwoofers. I'm sure you know more than Velodyne, Dr Hsu, SVS and the whole world for that matter.


EnterDaMatrix, I must apologize. I didn't mean to leave you in this cruel dark world of sound without a life line to get out of the depths of being an AR newbie and into a sonic GAINT like Mr. Markw. Everyone knows that this audio stuff is life threatening and you'll shurely die if you do not study under Markw.I'm sure he doesn't see you as a patronizing little snob now, does he?


Does this make you Happy? I'm sure he was greatly offended by the way I just pulled the carpet out from underneath him and said that "HE CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE" You're a kind person for sticking up for him like that...and calling him a kid and all. When infact you don't stick up for anyone but yourself and your cause.Well, we'll let him be the judge of that.


As for you doing this as a PROFESSION?No, now it's only semi-pro and even then only on occasion. I've passed my knowledge on to others who can carry on in my place.


I knew you would say that too....but that didn't stop you from running head first into the wall, did it? Not too bright, are ya?


Even if that is true, there are alot of people who do jobs that totaly suck at them.Yep, it's true, and I wouldn't have been able to do it for so long if I was one of those that sucked at it. Ya see, I know what I'm doing, I don't just think I do.


Or perhaps you worked in the home audio section at Best Buy and sold people extended warranties on speakers that have 5 year warranties.Oh, the pain, the pain. ;)


You have still proved nothing.Why would I bother to try to prover anything to you? You already know it all.


Just because I don't jump all over people in a FORUM of all places to make others think that my knowledge is vastly superior to theirs doesn't mean I don't know what's going on.Your posts here simply prove that you DON'T know what's going on. You just jump in and spew audiomyths and half truths, with no puncuation, trying to bafffle us with bull****e instead of dazzling us with brilliance.


It just means I'm a better person than you are thats all.Now that's a laugh. Excuse me while I wipe the coffee off my monirtor and keyboard. See previous answer.


You and morons like you WANT to be famous and have respect of others.Famous? Morons like me? Careful, there's a lot of us morons here. Hey, I'm just a simple guy trying to give people a leg up in this hobby. You're the one that's trying to scare them away with your rapid-fire myths.


Its just that you can't get it face to face, so you get on an audio forum and bark alot about how much you know and accumulate tons of post and then call yourself elite. What's with this "face to face" stuff? Get what face to face? Is that supposed to be a veiled threat?

And,I don't call myself "elite". If you had as much sense as a doorknob, you would be able to see that I chose that ironic tag line in order to lampoon snobs like [i]you]/i]. I guess you didn't get teh memo.

It seems you're the one hung up on trying to impress people with their knowledge and are hung up on terms like that.


You're not quite Dr. House, you can't get away with being a jerk yet.So far I'm doing quite well, thank youi. But, I must say, you're catching up quickly.


You have to actually know something first and then you can be a jerk.From your short time here, you've shown that one can merely THINK they know something to be a jerk. And, you're very good at that.

[markw]

"Hey. we're all wrong once and a while, but most of us are man enough to admit it. By your flopping around like a hooked fish on a dock you just draw more attention to yourself."

The fact that you're still watching this post and responding to mine so quickly shows that you're full of sh*t..Got a class to teach now. Back later.

[AudioBack]

For more added fun, I checked out your "other" posts. You shouldn't tell people to do that. It doesn't make you look any better. I explored the first three pages of posts. Sounds like the same guy using rude replys to look like the guy who knows what's going on. You always turn your ugly nose up to newbies that have questions. AHHH!!! ALL THOSE STUPID NEWBIES!!!! What happened to encourging the kids that are trapped on the outside with crappy sound?

By the way, I love the way you break my posts down. It makes your posts look so much bigger and meaner and more detailed than mine.

[audio_dude]

AudioBack, go away...

if all you're going to do is bash a veteran member like markw all day, then you really need to get a life. When I first came here, I was a newbie, just like you. But I sat, read, and learned, now I get respect, i've earned it, I can post something and people don't bash it. I don't mind people making suggestions, but when someone comes and tells you its wrong, epecially when they know more than you, you should listen. Thats how you learn.

I really don't care if you take what i just wrote, quote it, and make up some stupid @ss comments about it. Just try to make some FRIENDS here, and have a good time.


edit: oh, and another thing, could we please get back on topic here? we're trying to solve EnterDaMatrix's problem...

[AudioBack]

I am not a newbie when it comes to audio. I'm a newbie to this pathetic forum. Say all you want that you guys are trying to help people. Read the all of the posts that your sorry loser of a friend left. He starts stuff and then has all of his butt boys finish it for him. But you don't mind, because I've seen you do it too. Veteran my ass. I don't recall ever asking any of you guys a question. I replied to Matrix's post. Your boy didn't like spastic's response either. Responding with "Not true at all". Then to my first post "Sorry, your're dead wrong." Then proceeded to tell me that I know nothing. Who can't make friends here? I had no problems with this forum until I ran into you two dumbasses. Every forum has demons like you. People will be chattin' nice and friendly until you idiots step in and give your worthless rude advice that nobody asked for. You start fights in forums and people get fed up and leave because they are there to get help or to help people, and you idiots are just here to try to show how smart you guys think you are.

No audio_dude, you get a life. Respect? On a stupid computer forum? This forum stuff means nothing, and will not be remembered. Nobody cares about blogs. If both you guys died tommorow, your little click friends would be the only ones who miss you. Actually, if that happened, people could share opinions and tips freely without you guys butting in. Wouldn't that be nice?

Keep your worthless computer domains. Why don't you guys make a myspace page and show off all your crap so everyone can see how wondefully nerdy you guys are. Why don't you guys just close the internet browser and go work on your audio systems and learn something, instead of asking eachother how to do it. It's the blind leading the blind in here. I learned the fundimentals at the school of hard knocks, before message boards like this one were even available to me.

So, I am going to make it easy for myself and for you guys. I am going to get removed from this sh*tty forum with just making one click. You guys are going to get to remove me because you have such AWSOME POWER AND RESPECT. I have no time to even play around with you morons any longer. I do have a life to get back to, and mud slinging on the computer just isn't as fun as it was when I was 13 in the AOL chatrooms. You guys need to grow the hell up. Have a nice life in cyberspace. Ok, now you can report this post because I just told you guys to GO F*CK EACH OTHER IN YOUR STUPID ASSES!!!! That'll get me kicked off for sure.

[markw]

Now for the technical breakdown


I'm not familiar with ADS speakers or even the size of the 300's.Not a problem. The basics are the same all over,


However the only correct way to hook up a sub, especially for just music is through a sub output.Really? How did they "hookem up" if there is no sub output?


I know that home sub amps have like three different ways to hookem up, but one is really the only way to hook up a sub.You do realize you've just contradicted yourself, don't. you? But, I guess all the sub designers and working audio technicians don't have a clue, right?


The high level inputs are the way you would hook your sub up to your current receiver.Well, if he doesn't have a sub out or line outs, then that's all that's left right? I do believe MikeyBC said this in post # 2, but he only neded one line to get that point across.


The huge problem with that is that your main speakers will be doing full bandwidth and doing the same frequencies as the sub.Well now, don't be too sure of that, partner. This is where I stated to doubt the depth of your knowledge on this subject. Most subs, when being fed a speaker level signal parse out the lows and send them to the subwoofer, leaving only the highs to be fed to the mains. Problem solved!


This will lead to hills and dips caused by frequency overlaping and cancelation.Technobabble. See above paragraphs. As you know, enhanced bass can excite room nodes and cause strange effects no matter which type of crossover is used but, in any case, as pointed out above, the sub itself has already taken steps to minimize any interactions.


You have a few options that are sure to put a smile on your face when you listen.I'm sure you've found a few, but we're talking audio here.


You can do what Spastic said above, and ge't speakers that don't require a sub.But this requires money, which he might not be able to spare at the moment. Let's keep it real, shall we? And, very few speakers cannot benefit from a well integrated subwoofer.


Or get a line level high pass filter and run it through your tape loop or better yet pre-main couplers if your receiver has them.This is the part where you showed me, without a doubt, you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about and were just throwing out technical sounding terms with no regard to what they mean.

You DO know where, in the signal path, the tape loop is, don't you?

Well, for those that don't and wish to learn, it's immediately after the input selector and right before the volume control. Essentially, it's right before any preamp stages and, by association, long before the power amplifier.

Assuming he has a tape loop and followed your advice, wouldn't this a strip out ALL lows from the signal chain from that point on? If he did that, all bass would be removed from the signal path before the volume control in the preamp. By the time the sound gets to the speakers, the subwoofer wouldn't have anything to do!

Did you ever check out his amp? Obviously not. If he had pre-outs/main ins he would have been directed to insert the sub there and we wouldn't be having this discussion, now would we? Even if he had pre-outs/main ins and inserted this hi-pass filter there, no lows would have made it to the speaker outputs. But, that's an illogical assumption since the sub wouldn't have been hooked up there. ...more of your technobabble to muddy the waters.


Lastly get a Dolby Digital receiver that can high pass your main speakers.Again, so ready to have someone else spend money to accommodate your limited skill level. It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools for his mistakes.


No matter the size of your mains (big or small) If you cannot high pass your mains, your bass will suck if you add a sub.I believe we've already shown this is a non-issue above. But, some speakers are "polite" enough to simply ignore any sounds below what they can cleanly reproduce.


Plus if you're planning on getting a cheap sub like less than 200 bucks, it won't add anything to what a good full range floor stander can already do.Now this I can almost go along with. Always buy the best sub you can afford. Even if it "outclasses" the current system it can blend well when one upgrades to different gear.

For cost efficient subs, Parts Express offers a line of Dayton subs that are unbeatable for the money that start below $100, less if they go on sale. Go to www.partsexpress,com and search on "dayton powered subwoofers"

Sorry you take these things so personal but, as you can see, your post was so full of misinfoirmation that I was hoping to avoid this. But, upon further reflection, I figured "what the heck, he did ask for an education." It's one thing to be wrong. It's yet another thing to be arrogant about refusing to see it or admit it.

Oh, when I was 13 they didn't have the internet. JFK was president, color TV was still the big thing on the block, FM stereo had just been approved the year before, I was repairing tube radios, and was just buiding my first amp from a circuit in the RCA Receiving Tube Manual (1959 edition).

[Resident Loser]

...they'll let anybody post here won't they?

Pontificating snob suggests a high-pass filter in the tape loop?

Well, lessee now...the OP doesn't have a "sub out", why would anyone guess he actually has a true (note that word true) "tape mon" loop? AND BTW, when you cut to the chase, you do infer that this will somehow enable adding a sub...

And just what would that do Braniac? Filter the signal beyond it...and that means through the pre-amp and the main amp, that's what...just where does he pick up the low-freqs? And what will feeding the sub from the "pre-outs" (if he indeed has them, which is looking more and more like a not-gonna-happen) do? It would be great if he had an separate amp but he don't, do he? How does he then feed back into his "amp-in" jacks...the ever popular Y connector? Did you take into account the potential for impedance mismatches...Those connectors are good for some things and may even work, but why futz with things or come up with some Rube Goldberg DIY kinda' stuff (if that's your next suggestion).

The OP needs a self-powered sub that has all the conventional and time-tested wiring options...He needs to use the speaker terms on his rec/amp to feed the appropriate inputs on the sub which will: (a) drop the output via relatively simple voltage dividers to line level (b) divide the signal to lo and high freq components (c) send those lows to the subs' internal amp via an adjustable crossover circuit (d) pass the remaining hi-freq info to the stereo speakers which will now use the subs' "speaker out" tems in lieu of his amp/rec. Bada-bing...bada-boom! A little futzing with some program material or a test disc and perhaps an SPL meter(if one wants to get really techie about it) and you're good to go...

So to the OP there's no need to get rid of anything and there are many folks here who take great pleasure in being of real assistance; markw is certainly one of them, might I add...and unfortunately, once in a while we get the know-it-all audiophools who think (note the word think) the got it down...after screwin' with this hobby since the mid 60s the one thing I've found is you never know-it-all...

Cheez'n'crackers have you never heard a real (read: sub-less) loudspeaker system capable of doing justice to Bach's "Toccata And Fugue"? IMO loudspeakers that require subs are second rate...an outgrowth of the satellite/sub "craze" that began in the 70s...A little shrewd marketing and it became "required"...the public wanted it, but only after the industry told them they did...like so many other facets of this biz; black face-plates come to mind...HT another...I still don't get a single, summed (mono} bass signal...yeah, yeah bass is non-directional...sure it is...

jimHJJ(...I used to be an audiophile, now I know better...and with any sort of luck, dingus is actually gone...)

[AudioBack]

I can't believe I haven't been reported for use of foul language. You guys could have kicked me off way before now. This must be because you really don't want me to go. Ehhh... I was going to leave you guys alone on your useless little forum domain, but I see now that you guys just need something to do with your worthless lives sitting on the computer all day and night. So, I'll be around. I'm sure you'll be looking for my posts so you can run them into the ground. Just remember to to a break from typing once and a while. I bet your parents miss you spending all that time in your rooms and all. But seriously Markw, what did you do in the AUDIO profession that gave you so much experience? How long did you do it? How old are you? You must be pretty old if you were doing this since before I was just a stain.

[Resident Loser]

I can't believe I haven't been reported for use of foul language. You guys could have kicked me off way before now. This must be because you really don't want me to go. Ehhh... I was going to leave you guys alone on your useless little forum domain, but I see now that you guys just need something to do with your worthless lives sitting on the computer all day and night. So, I'll be around. I'm sure you'll be looking for my posts so you can run them into the ground. Just remember to to a break from typing once and a while. I bet your parents miss you spending all that time in your rooms and all. But seriously Markw, what did you do in the AUDIO profession that gave you so much experience? How long did you do it? How old are you? You must be pretty old if you were doing this since before I was just a stain.

...you were gone...or at least going...I have the feeling you don't know when to come in out of the rain either...

And yeah you're right, judging by some of your past posts, flogging the techno-babble jargon of 'high-pass filter' you sorta' remind me of the guy who owns one tool...a hammer...all of a sudden everything around starts to look like a nail...

jimHJJ(...P.S. junior, I have ties that are probably older...and a bit smarter...than you are...I'd suggest you show some respect for your elders...)

[markw]

I can't believe I haven't been reported for use of foul language. You guys could have kicked me off way before now. This must be because you really don't want me to go. Ehhh... I was going to leave you guys alone on your useless little forum domain, but I see now that you guys just need something to do with your worthless lives sitting on the computer all day and night. So, I'll be around. I'm sure you'll be looking for my posts so you can run them into the ground. Just remember to to a break from typing once and a while. I bet your parents miss you spending all that time in your rooms and all. But seriously Markw, what did you do in the AUDIO profession that gave you so much experience? How long did you do it? How old are you? You must be pretty old if you were doing this since before I was just a stain.Yeah, yoiu're a man of your word, all right.

It's hard to get thrown off this site. But, at least everyone got to see what we're made of, both personally and technically, didn't they? After your dismal showing on this thread I'm surprised you can still show your face here, metaphorically speaking. Obviously, self pride isn't one of your strong points.

As for "running your post to the ground", well, had you not posted such bogus information as fact, it would never had happened. Try to write less but stick to facts instead of what you want to believe. As I said somewhere above, try to dazzle 'em with brilliance, not baffle 'em with BS. That should cut your word count tremendously.

And, as for more info on me, well, you'll just have to wait. That's not an issue here. My posts and their content speak for themselves. I don't owe you a resume, nor do you deserve one. Some here are familiar with my past from reading my posts here, which started in '98.

But, in the spirit of fairness, where do you derive your experience? After all, you posted such blatantly incorrect information and swore up and down they were all proven facts, I'm sure many here questioning your credentials right about now.

One ray of hope for you though. I dropped more than enough hints that you should be able to figure my age within a year or two.

And, if you havent noticed, I don't really care if you're here or not. This forum got along fine before you got here and I'm sure it will after you're gone.

[SlumpBuster]

Man... I just got a load of this thread. The topic can be deceiving. If I knew it was gonna be this kinda party, I'da stuck my dick in the mashed potatoes along time ago. :thumbsup: :devil:

[royphil345]

Yeah... What's with this Audio Back guy???

There have been excellent systems with subs long before any HT receivers with sub outputs came out.

Filtering frequencies in a tape loop certainly wouldn't help add a sub. Somebody needs to rethink that one...

Many subs have speaker-level inputs and outputs for your main speakers that will provide an excellent crossover. This is what the original poster should probably look for in a sub. Even if the sub has no speaker-level crossover that filters lows from the main speakers, good results can be obtained simply by adjusting the crossover control on the sub. It is called a "crossover" control by the way, and wouldn't even be necessary if a sub was only designed to be used with HT receivers having built-in bass management.


My first experience with a powered sub was using the speaker-level connections / crossover built into a Mirage sub along with a Harman Kardon Dolby Pro-Logic receiver that had no sub output and some PSB Century 800 speakers. System sounded GREAT. Sub blended well and greatly improved sound for HT and music.

[AudioBack]

Ok ok. I get where you guys are going with this. I looked at my initial post and saw what you guys are all barking about. The tape loop idea is incorrect. I momentarily got pre-main and tape loop confused. I know what they both are and obviously didn't think it through all the way before I wrote it. I made a mistake. I didn't read even half the posts that came my way because I didn't feel like reading through all the venom being spewed. Thats why I didn't catch on to my post quicker. The only one I actually read was post #19, and by accident. Perhaps if the first post by markw didn't start out by personaly attacking me, then this could have all been avoided. There is a huge reason why fights always break out on forums, because everyone wants to be the man, and the people who have the most posts feel that they have earned the "THE MAN" title. Yeah, I got on the defensive alright. Because even when somebody is right, or even if there is no right or wrong answer, the regulars jump on the newbies in the forum. I've been doing this thing for a long time, and way before I joined any message board. I'm almost 29 years old, and have been in this thing since 17. I learned by reading manuals and trial and error. I don't own a single magazine. I try the things I want myself, I don't ask anybody how something sounds, or if it's good. I don't care if people who come over to my place and tell me my stuff sounds incredible, or if they say nothing. This is all for me. I've had about 3 systems so far and with each I have learned what I want to do and need to get in order to get the sound I want to achieve. I have done just that. I made a mistake....so sue me. For Resident loser, deal with it. Your're right, they will let anyone post here because its a free forum. You don't pay dues, this is not a club, it is a forum. No matter how many posts you have, you don't own this forum anymore than I don't. For Markw, you may have alot of knowledge about his field, but you'll have to learn to deal with the fact that no matter how many posts you have, doesn't meen you know the most in this forum. There IS more than one way to skin a cat, not just Markw's way. Yeah, I know I goofed and posted something that was incorrect. I bet Mr. Over 2000 posts would never admit that he was mistaken. You would drive your accuser away, and they would just quit becuase you're not worth their time. So, how can I show my face again around here? This forum meens nothing to me. It has no effect on my daily life. The people I help or piss off still don't really no me, and I really don't know them. If nobody on this site respects me, it would make no difference. I wouldn't even know who you are if I saw any of you out in the street and you wouldn't know me. I have the respect of the people who know me. This whole respect thing is a joke guys. Swallow your pride and accept it. The sooner you do, the sooner forums can go back the way they were intended to be.

And by the way, all of you spend way too much time on your stupid computer. Man some of you are online almost 24/7. Go play with all your great stereo stuff and eat jeez.

[Dusty Chalk]

Go ... eat ...!!! Thanks for reminding me, I forgot to have lunch...

[markw]

The tape loop idea is incorrect. I momentarily got pre-main and tape loop confused. I know what they both are and obviously didn't think it through all the way before I wrote it. I made a mistake.Are you saying that the high pass filter should be inserted between the pre out and the main in, not the tape loop?

[AudioBack]

Are you saying that the high pass filter should be inserted between the pre out and the main in, not the tape loop?

Yes Markw, that is exactly what I'm saying. :thumbsup:

[markw]

Yes Markw, that is exactly what I'm saying. :thumbsup:Problem is, in the context of the origihal post, it still has the same effect. It still strips out all the lows from the signal path.

[AudioBack]

Are we still talking pre to main?

[markw]

Are we still talking pre to main?Remember, our boy is running a speaker level sub.

And, in the case of inserting a subwoofer (with line level in/out jacks) between the pre out andthe main in, virtually all subs return the signal sans lows. That makes a separate hi-pass filter redundant.

Ya see, there's more than one way to skin the subwoofer cat. This is number two. The speaker level option was number one. You don't "need" a sub out on the receiver.

Yet another method, and this was touched upon both here and in the "stereo subs" thread, is that some speakers naturally roll off any lows they can't produce. This allows simply inserting a "Y" connector with two males and one female between the pre/main. The two males replace the link and another interconnect is run from the female to the sub. This requires R/L inputs on the sub. No return from the sub is needed. This is my preferred method. And, hear me now and believe me later, this CAN sound excellent if implemented correctly unless some putz cranks up the bass control to the max. That's number three and we haven't even counted in the sub output on the receiver yet...

Capice? That's a lot of skinned cats, eh?

[AudioBack]

I totally agree with you. There are many ways to hook up a sub. All the ways you described I know and agree with. I perhaps jumped the gun becuase I have had nothing but problems when I hook a sub up speaker level or even line level using a pre amp and an amp. Ofcourse the in the pre to main configuration, the cables would run from the preamp, to the sub, out the sub into the amplifier. The sub would get what it needs and pass the signal on to the amp. Or if his receiver had pre/main couplers it would work the same. He said he has a Onkyo TX-930. I couldn't find any info, not even a picture of it. It sounded like an older stereo Onkyo model. I used to have a TX-8511 which is a newer model with no pre/mains on it. I have seen pre/main couplers on older model Onkyos, that is why it was mensioned. Back to hooking the sub up. I owned a Paradigm PS-1000 that through the line in/out ports, there was a built in 3rd order high pass at 80Hz. Most cheaper subs either don't have, or have a 1st order or 2nd if you're lucky. Maybe now days they are comming with more on them now. Line level is out for Matrix anyway due to no pre/mains. Speaker level is the only alternative without buying extra stuff.

On that note, I know that by using the crossover, you can try to blend the mains and the sub together, which in a perfect world would work just fine. Depending on how picky you are, you can get them match up for the most part but one thing. Phase Cancellation. Lets say you have a small speaker that is completely rolled off audible range at like 40Hz. Just because you can't hear it, doesn't mean waves are not being produced by the speaker anymore. It is still pushing air. That can and usually does interfere with the subwoofer and cause bass cancelations. LuvinDaBlues said he had a -9db slope at the subwoofer crossover point. Which can be fixed by perhaps switching the phase or turning of the phase knob if he has one. However he could fix only one problem area with doing this. In my experience, when you switch the phase, you fix the one and cause another. At 0 degrees you could get your high bass, but lose low bass and 180 degrees gain low and lose high. Chances are if you never do a bass test with a real bass tone tester, you wouldn't notice your missing anything. You would never hear the dips as much as you would in say a 200Hz to 20Hz sine sweep. Most people don't seem to care if these dips exist because they don't know most of the time. Furthermore, I seem to find people that have less than favorable conditions for sound travel due to room size, shape or lack of placement options due to room cosmetics,or in laymans terms, the wife don't like it there. Perhaps in rooms more suited for sound travel, the cancelation is not bad enough to worry about or is not a problem at all. I have not been that lucky. I've always been stuck in small or funny shaped rooms. The only way to get any sanity merging a sub with the sats is to high pass the sats to do no lower than 80 Hz. It's more efficient power wise, louder, more protects a small speaker from being overdriven, and makes sure that you can merge the sound comming from the sub and the satalite almost flawlessly with little cancelation. I've never had an ideal room for sound, so I don't really know if these factors still apply to more ideal rooms.

I have more to type, but I'm tired of typing for now. I know I left some things out.

[Dusty Chalk]

I think what he was trying to say was, "didn't you mean lowpass, not highpass filter?"

[AudioBack]

Ok, I just need to clear this up. Do you guys no what a high pass filter is?

[royphil345]

"Ok, I just need to clear this up. Do you guys no what a high pass filter is?"


Yeah... we "no"...

I can see how it would work if you split the pre-out from a receiver and sent a high-passed signal that perfectly matched the rolloff of a sub's crossover control to the amp and a raw signal to a sub... Where do you buy one of those high pass filters that perfectly matches the rolloff on a sub's crossover control??? Link please???... Or were you just talking nonsense because you didn't know the simple solution to the original poster's problem... and felt the need to post something anyway???... and defend to the death your bad advice???

You could use a crossover from the receiver's pre-out, sending the lows to the sub and the highs to the mains, with the crossover rolloff matching up perfectly. That would make alot more sense. That is exactly why a crossover is built into many (but not all) subs to do just that. There are subs that can do it at line level. There are subs that can do it at speaker level if pre-outs / main-ins are not available. There will be no cancellation or doubling of frequencies because a crossover is being employed. Buying one of these subs is the original poster's simplest and best real-world solution to his problem. NOT finding this magical high-pass filter that will perfectly match the rolloff of a sub (would also require splitting the signal which I'm not personally into...). Bet you don't post a link to it!!!

[markw]

The first thing I did in order to help him was to try to find some info on this unit and tailor my response to it. This took about a minute.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ONKYO-TX-930-QUARTZ-SYNTHESIZED-TUNER-AMP-RECEIVER_W0QQitemZ250077229061QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3 279QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It seems that Mikey BC nailed his only option in the first post.

As you can see from the view of the the back panel, it's I/O is pretty spartan but, for someone just setting started in the hobby, it's not a bad start. Actually, it has a phono ouput which is hard to find anymore.

And, those are nifty little speakers he's got there! A bit overpriced on hte used market, but still a good speaker. They don't go that low to begin with and, between their natural rolloff below 100hz or so and a powered sub's internal crossover, they should blend quite naturally.

He's simply taking his first baby steps into this hobby and needs a little guidance, not intimidation. He needs clarification on things he's heard can help improve the sound of the system but, like most of us here, finding like minded audiophiles down the block is not always do-able. That's why these forums exist. To help each other in a friendly, non-intimidating way.

Answers to posters here should be taken in the proper context. Not everyone is a wine connoisseur and, like me, can be satisfied with a bottle of Beringers* white zinfandel so telling they NEED to buy certain vineyards, vintages, nose, etc. to be satisfied is totally lost on them and simply intimidates them.

The same goes for electronic advice. When you went off pontificating like Moses from the mount, particularly with wrong and totally irrelevant information, I simply took upon myself the mother hen role. I tend to do that.

I'm sorry that you seem to have had such difficulty blending subwoofers into your environment, but it seems you are somewhat unique in that respect. Most people I've had contact with don't have that many issues and, believe me, I can be very picky.

I've found that proper placement of the sub in the first place, and perhaps some minor room treatment, can take care of a majority of the issues you seem to have. Then, if one really wants to go all out, a slight touch of eq (usually subtractive) can usually bring the rest into line.

As for phase cancellation, I've only found this to be a problem when two or more subs are being used. Interactions from the mains is minimal, to say the least.

And yes. I do know what a high pass filter is.

* The wine, not the electronics manufacturer.

[Resident Loser]

...let's see if we got this straight, shall we?

You consider this:


Sorry, you're dead wrong. Experience has proven you wrong. There is more than one way to skin a cat, or so thay say at the Chinese restaurant up the sreet.

...an attack? Seems so...


Perhaps if the first post by markw didn't start out by personaly attacking me, then this could have all been avoided.

"This" could have been avoided if you didn't speak in absolutes and tell the OP he needed to trash all his stuff and then go on in an attempt to have us slake our thirsts in your vast puddle of knowledge...Forgot the diff between a Tape Mon and pre-out?

FYI, yes the OPs gear is old, so old in fact you can't download a .pdf Owners manual @Onkyo...but, you can go deeper (as I chose to do) and found front and rear photos of the unit at an auction site...No pre-outs, but it does have facilities for two tape decks, although the point is most definitely moot as we all have seen...Only one way to go then, high level outs...That's the level some of us go to in order to actually help noobs...

And even if it had pre-outs, what sort of filter would be optimum? Butterworth? Quasi-Butterworth? Linkwitz-Riley? What order? At which frequency? Could the OP DIY it, does he have the skills or tools to do so? Is he familiar with the math to arrive at the required component values for those parameters? Even though such filters are available from manufacturers like Hsu, the customer must provide the required Xover freqs and they will custom craft it to those specs...I doubt a noob an a tight budget would know.

The OP said listening, and I assume he means to music...Now your run-of-the-mill HT set up is mostly interested in the footfalls of those laser-totin' mechanical lizards, earthquakes, canonades and ph@rts from mythical creatures, so sub placement and the resultant time delays aren't all that critical...music is a whole' nother thing...that's when you get involved with frequency cancellations as a result of wavelength differences that come about as a result of listener distances to mains to sub...so as long as he keeps his sub as close to his mains as practicable, any frequency cancellations should be minimized...of course that's one of the reasons single, summing subs placed way over yonder (or being subject to WAF) $uck...you're better off with two, properly bi-amped and equalized subs placed close to each main...or better yet getting a full-range loudspeaker system and avoiding them completely.

So in a nutshell, try to help and you will be welcome...try to dazzle us with snappy footwork, audiophool sensibilities and jargon and you will be taken to task...

jimHJJ(...have a nice day...)

[AudioBack]

"Ok, I just need to clear this up. Do you guys no what a high pass filter is?"


Yeah... we "no"...

I can see how it would work if you split the pre-out from a receiver and sent a high-passed signal that perfectly matched the rolloff of a sub's crossover control to the amp and a raw signal to a sub... Where do you buy one of those high pass filters that perfectly matches the rolloff on a sub's crossover control??? Link please???... Or were you just talking nonsense because you didn't know the simple solution to the original poster's problem... and felt the need to post something anyway???... and defend to the death your bad advice???

You could use a crossover from the receiver's pre-out, sending the lows to the sub and the highs to the mains, with the crossover rolloff matching up perfectly. That would make alot more sense. That is exactly why a crossover is built into many (but not all) subs to do just that. There are subs that can do it at line level. There are subs that can do it at speaker level if pre-outs / main-ins are not available. There will be no cancellation or doubling of frequencies because a crossover is being employed. Buying one of these subs is the original poster's simplest and best real-world solution to his problem. NOT finding this magical high-pass filter that will perfectly match the rolloff of a sub (would also require splitting the signal which I'm not personally into...). Bet you don't post a link to it!!!

You know what, I don't have time to explain or prove this sh*t to you. I have a life and a job. So you can see this magical device, google the Paradigm X-30 subwoofer controller. Read what it can do. This sh*t is really getting old. Read in one of my previous posts that I don't care about this forum or any of you, so this really is goodbye. I've wasted enough time explaining myself to people who call themselves audiophiles. Grow up and get a damn life. I will not be viewing this site any longer, so don't even bother to respond to this post, I promise it will be a waste of your time. My stuff sounds fantastic, thats all I need to know. :dita: :dita: :dita:

[markw]

It's more than a simple high pass filter. To call it that is a bit of a misnomer.

It also provides a lo pass output for the sub as well. So, I'd classify it more as a crossover, wouldn't you?

And, since OP is dealing with a speaker level signal, wouldn't their X-10 be more suited to his needs?

[royphil345]

LOL... The Paradigm X-30 subwoofer controller is simply a CROSSOVER. EXACTLY the same as the ones built into many subs. They offer a line-level or speaker-level model, EXACTLY the same as what's built into many subs. EXACTLY what others were recommending instead of discouraging the use of a sub. Buying a sub without a built-in crossover and adding this device would certainly be more costly and complicated than simply buying the right sub for the job to begin with. It could be an option to consider... but it's a subwoofer CROSSOVER... not a high-pass filter... You didn't suggest it...

If this is what you were recommending for the original poster.... Why the heck didn't you just recommend it??? Were you just trying to confuse and discourage the poster? Great... thanks for helping him out...

Looks MUCH more like you just keep trying to come up with more crap to support your bad advice and attitude...

Screw you, you rude idiot... Don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out...

[Resident Loser]

I've wasted enough time explaining myself to people who call themselves audiophiles. Grow up and get a damn life. I will not be viewing this site any longer, so don't even bother to respond to this post, I promise it will be a waste of your time. My stuff sounds fantastic, thats all I need to know. :dita: :dita: :dita:

...Who called themselves audiophiles?...I used to be an audiophile but now I know better...In case you hadn't noticed the term bandied about has been audiophool...a group of which you would seem to be a prime exponent...

Apparently,when you tried to do some backpedaling you forgot your bike had coaster brakes...

As an addendum to royphil's last remark, do let the door hit you in the @$$ on your way out, it's got hydraulic assist and will push you along that much faster...

jimHJJ(...what's that saying about a little knowledge being dangerous?...)

[kexodusc]

Awww, man, why didn't I see this thread earlier....

[markw]

...Who called themselves audiophiles?...I made quick reference to that in post 36. I apoppologize profusely. There was no offense intended.


He's simply taking his first baby steps into this hobby and needs a little guidance, not intimidation. He needs clarification on things he's heard can help improve the sound of the system but, like most of us here, finding like minded audiophiles down the block is not always do-able.

So, what's the penalty for that? Forcing me top get rid of all my speakers and replace them all with JBL HLS410's? :eek:

[Resident Loser]

Awww, man, why didn't I see this thread earlier....

...jump on in, the more the merrier...and besides I have a funny feeling that despite all the rhetoric to the contrary, dingus is out there lurkin'...

jimHJJ(...perhaps he'll pick up on a thing or a dozen...)

[SlumpBuster]

So, I got a problem that maybe you guys can help me with.

I just moved into a new subdivision. Everyone has been nice, so to show my appreciation I've been going to everyone's front lawn, squatting, and dropping a big Cleveland Steamer. Now since my sh!t doesn't have any foul odor, I thought I would be helping by fertilizing their lawns.

Do you guys know why they are all mad at me?

Also, can you recommend a sub for under $100 and tell me which of my speakers sounds better?

[SlumpBuster]

Oh, and I'm serious about this, so no making fun of me or being rude. I just don't know whether to get my sub back from my mother, I will decide based on what you guys think.

[GMichael]

OH man! When I first saw this topic, I thought to myself, "Self, this one is easy. Even you could answer it." But then I noticed that there was a good response right from post number 2. So I left it alone. Today I see that it's up to page 3. What the heck could they be talking about for this long?
Thanks AudioBack. It's been awhile sense we had anyone here so arrogant. It's good to see that there are still people around who would rather throw insults around instead of having a normal conversation. Carry on. It makes for great reading. Maybe you could insult me for a bit. I like it.

[Resident Loser]

I made quick reference to that in post 36. I apoppologize profusely. There was no offense intended...

The shame! The ignominy! The humanity!...The horror!...Lamentations...Woe is me, what shall we do to erase this Macbethian-like spot on the collective fabric of our very being? Perhaps just one thing...the right and honorable thing...

Ah, well...OK...it was sorta' used in a impersonal, generic, community sense...no harm, no foul...

jimHJJ(...just watch that sorta' stuff in the future...it's a slippery slope...)

[Resident Loser]

Maybe you could insult me for a bit. I like it.

...always what they seem you insipid, elitist, jerk...look I've told you before, this is about hookin' up a friggin' sub-woofer to a friggin' old receiver, so drag your sorry@$$ out here before I burst my pimples at you or ph@rt in your general direction... you...you son-of-a-silly person...I blow my nose at you...your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries...

jimHJJ(...now go or I will taunt you a second time...)

[kexodusc]

And what is it with weenies on web forums and writing their words out with CAPS????

[GMichael]

...always what they seem you insipid, elitist, jerk...look I've told you before, this is about hookin' up a friggin' sub-woofer to a friggin' old receiver, so drag your sorry@$$ out here before I burst my pimples at you or ph@rt in your general direction... you...you son-of-a-silly person...I blow my nose at you...your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries...

jimHJJ(...now go or I will taunt you a second time...)

Dude, I almost shot coffee out of my nose.

[Resident Loser]

Dude, I almost shot coffee out of my nose.

...as long as you enjoyed it...

jimHJJ(...BTW, SVI needs some help with JBL headphones...or is it SONY...perhaps you can help him out...)

[GMichael]

...as long as you enjoyed it...

jimHJJ(...BTW, SVI needs some help with JBL headphones...or is it SONY...perhaps you can help him out...)

I heard that JBL's are the best. Even studios use that brand man. They're almost as good as Bose.