No PORN FOR YOU...Via Sony

[Groundbeef]

Heres a interesting note:

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=storage&articleId=9008579&taxonomyId=19&intsrc=kc_top

It appears that Sony has hitched itself to a high horse here. Does anyone think that this will affect the Blu-Ray VS HD-DVD war?

BTW quite a few porn titles are now available on HD-DVD, and several studios have gone on to say that HD-DVD is easier to mfg. I learned this in my ummmm "research".

Thoughts?

[icarus]

jeeze high def porn, that could be scary... could see some details that would just petrify the average man. Come on Porn is porn... it doesn't matter if its high def or not.

I can't really see this making the war swing either way. The market advantage gained by the high def porn market, will probably be the equivalent that sony would get from those "radicals" who find pornography offensive and unmoral.

[Woochifer]

That contention that VHS won that format war because of porn has taken on urban legend status. Personally, I think VHS had already sealed the deal by the time porn on home video came along (more manufacturers on board, less restrictive licensing, and longer recording time).

Even if it proved decisive with VHS, I'm not altogether sure it will matter as much this time around. For one thing, there are a lot more avenues now available to anyone who wants porn, whereas VHS was bringing adult movies into people's homes for the first time. And with the advent of dual format players, and the all of the major film studios (except NBC Universal, which is partly owned by Microsoft) supporting Blu-ray, I just don't see a scenario where HD-DVD wins the format war outright. I think either Blu-ray wins out in the long run, both formats coexist in the market (thru Warner's TrueHD dual format disc, universal players, etc.), or both formats go down as downloadable and on-demand content make disc media irrelevant.

And this is simply a decision by Sony's duplicating house not to accept porn jobs, not an outright ban by the entire Blu-ray coalition. If, for example, Panasonic's duplicating facility (or any other facility) takes porn titles, Sony's decision won't matter. I don't think Sony will pull Panasonic's license if they decide to manufacture porn discs.

And as icarus pointed out, I'm not sure if HD would enhance porn viewing or make for a big time buzz kill seeing those porn stars in greater detail. Articles have already been written about how some women on TV just flat out look scary in HD.

[kexodusc]

Seriously, when was the last time anyone paid for porn anyway?

[Carl Reid]

or both formats go down as downloadable and on-demand content make disc media irrelevant.

I agree with all your other comments, but this one I really wanted to highlight... since I think this is MOST likely what will happen in the long run for Blue Ray, HD, SACD, DVD Audio and Redbook CD... Times have changed substantially and I think that trying to introduce new disc formats is a waste of time (unless the manufacturer's aim is merely to create a niche market).... As the internet connections improve, hard disk sizes increase and the download sizes of these formats decrease, I expect that more people will choose to download Music and Movies (for less than the cost of buying Discs in the store) online.... Having used I-Tunes, I can see how much more convenient it is to download than to go to a store.... at 3am when I suddenly have a desire to listen to some song from the early 90s that I dont have in my CD collection... I can purchase it on I-Tunes and play it within a few seconds.... now that's convenience....

Further, since so many people now regard it as being perfectly acceptable to steal (pirate) digital material, then given the choice between buying Blue Ray Discs in the store or just downloading the same film in Blue Ray format from some torrent site, well I think you get where I'm going with that one....

[kexodusc]

I agree with all your other comments, but this one I really wanted to highlight... since I think this is MOST likely what will happen in the long run for Blue Ray, HD, SACD, DVD Audio and Redbook CD... Times have changed substantially and I think that trying to introduce new disc formats is a waste of time (unless the manufacturer's aim is merely to create a niche market).... As the internet connections improve, hard disk sizes increase and the download sizes of these formats decrease, I expect that more people will choose to download Music and Movies (for less than the cost of buying Discs in the store) online.... Having used I-Tunes, I can see how much more convenient it is to download than to go to a store.... at 3am when I suddenly have a desire to listen to some song from the early 90s that I dont have in my CD collection... I can purchase it on I-Tunes and play it within a few seconds.... now that's convenience....

Further, since so many people now regard it as being perfectly acceptable to steal (pirate) digital material, then given the choice between buying Blue Ray Discs in the store or just downloading the same film in Blue Ray format from some torrent site, well I think you get where I'm going with that one....

Downloading music and movies has been out for over 5 years now - and nobody can demonstrate a conclusive trend that this alternative affects the sales of tangible disc formats.
Many people still want something they can touch when they buy things, and they definitely want the assurances of a given level of quality. They don't get assurances of either downloading a DVD or CD from the internet.
An even bigger obstacle - the industry is going to fight this to the point of suing 12 year old girls - they're not going down without years of fighting - too many big businesses, not just the record labels and movie studios, have too much money tied up in everything from production to distribution to electronics. The disc-less media revolution is still years away.
Someday I suspect this will happen, but not for quite some time.

[basite]

hi def porn or not, that's a stupid thing sony did,

who runs it anyways?
and is he/she family of SVI? :cornut:

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Carl Reid]

Downloading music and movies has been out for over 5 years now - and nobody can demonstrate a conclusive trend that this alternative affects the sales of tangible disc formats.
Many people still want something they can touch when they buy things, and they definitely want the assurances of a given level of quality. They don't get assurances of either downloading a DVD or CD from the internet.
An even bigger obstacle - the industry is going to fight this to the point of suing 12 year old girls - they're not going down without years of fighting - too many big businesses, not just the record labels and movie studios, have too much money tied up in everything from production to distribution to electronics. The disc-less media revolution is still years away.
Someday I suspect this will happen, but not for quite some time.

I think your very last sentence sums up my point as well... it will MOST likely happen... it's really just a matter of when.... I don't expect the disc-less revolution to be tomorrow... it takes years even decades to kill a format.... heck, Cassetes and Vinyl are still poduced albeit in very limited quantites compared to CDs.... but the point I'm trying make is that trying to launch a new universally accepted disk format is a bad choice at this stage, since technology is slowly progressing towards internet media downloads....

[jrhymeammo]

I like my porn in 2ch, but you sick F'ers gotta have it in MC setups. How do you folks like having sound coming from rear channels? Does it make you feel like you are actually there?

[Duds]

Nobody can demonstrate a conclusive trend that downloading music affects the sales of tangible disc formats? seriously? Its been killing the music industry.



Downloading music and movies has been out for over 5 years now - and nobody can demonstrate a conclusive trend that this alternative affects the sales of tangible disc formats.
Many people still want something they can touch when they buy things, and they definitely want the assurances of a given level of quality. They don't get assurances of either downloading a DVD or CD from the internet.
An even bigger obstacle - the industry is going to fight this to the point of suing 12 year old girls - they're not going down without years of fighting - too many big businesses, not just the record labels and movie studios, have too much money tied up in everything from production to distribution to electronics. The disc-less media revolution is still years away.
Someday I suspect this will happen, but not for quite some time.

[Dusty Chalk]

Nobody can demonstrate a conclusive trend that downloading music affects the sales of tangible disc formats? seriously? Its been killing the music industry.No it's not. Lack of quality material has been killing the music industry. The RIAA keeps repeating that it's downloading, but they have yet to prove a correlation.

[kexodusc]

Nobody can demonstrate a conclusive trend that downloading music affects the sales of tangible disc formats? seriously? Its been killing the music industry.
"Killing" is an exaggeration.
The general consensus I've read is that proving a correlation between file sharing and eroding cd sales has proven extremely difficult for the music industry. I'm not aware of any studies that have withstood any scrutiny and proved a cause and effect relationship that puts a directly proportional blame on file-sharing for declining sales. I'll admit to not reading every study, and would love to see one.
The industry's biggest and best argument remains intuition. It's intuitive to think some people are not buying when they can just download - nobody's going to deny that - I'm sure many do - but the challenge remains providing evidence suggesting a decrease in sales in the last several years is directly a result of file sharing, and solely or even mostly responsible for it.
The RIAA won't even deny that a economic downturn that reduced disposable income, competition from alternative entertainment/media from DVD's, XM radio, legit online music purchases and even crappy, re-hashed product has been killing he industry more than downloading has (not to mention there've been 3 years of sales increases since Napster hit mainstream working against them). All of these factors are certainly largely responsible for significant portions of the decline in sales. I don't see the RIAA producing studies attributing losses to these factors though.

I'm sure it's responsible for hurting some artists, and it's definitely responsible for preventing some sales, but it also helps others. Does it offset? I doubt it - but I don't think it's as bad as the industry would have you believe.
The best study I'm aware of came from Harvard in 2004 which basically demonstrated that most downloading was for music people weren't ever going to pay money for - whereas the industry studies make the assumption that all downloaded music was going to be purchased otherwise - countering the lost-sales argument, and that a significant amount of downloading actually led to sales (trying new artists,etc). It's easy to find in google a good 50 + page read.

I think you're right in saying downloading has adverse effects, but measuring it conclusively still remains a challenge.

(FWIW: I'd like to mention I'm not a hippy anti-capitalist, anti-industry nutbar either...more like a pro-artist, hypocrite that prefers buying most of the time).

[kcramer]

No it's not. Lack of quality material has been killing the music industry. The RIAA keeps repeating that it's downloading, but they have yet to prove a correlation.

Indeed. You need a quality product to have quality sales. Take it from someone who's in customer service. I won't sell "push" a product I don't believe in. 80% of the music being released may have been mastered properly, but it's far from QUALITY. The music industry is eating itself...

On a lighter note, wouldn't limiting the titles available on a specific format (Blu-ray for instance) limit your sales? Sony may think they're doing the right thing, but personally I think they're just going to eat themselves in the long run. If porn can't be released on Blu-ray, then Blu-ray is NOT a media for the masses. (the porn industy sells a lot of porn btw - limiting Blu-ray's "potential" makes Blu-ray unattractive)

I've been calling the new format: Beta-Blu-ray.

[Duds]

I agree that there is definitely a lack of quality material, but to say that downloading isnt having an adverse affect on the industry is wrong, in my opinion. I dont blame consumers for not wanting to pay $20 for a cd with 1 or 2 good songs on it, but now that there is another way for them to get those 1 or 2 good songs, they no longer have to go out and buy the entire cd.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, i just think its definitely hurting album sales. The industry was in denial for years that downloading was going to come to what it is now, and now they are kicking themselves in the arse and playing catch-up. There were releases this year from big time rap artists that didn't sell anywhere close to what it would have sold if it came out before the downloading phase.


No it's not. Lack of quality material has been killing the music industry. The RIAA keeps repeating that it's downloading, but they have yet to prove a correlation.

[Duds]

All good points, and I agree there are other factors that are hurting album sales. It seems to be the year of re-releasing titles that just came out 3 months ago with 3 bonus tracks or a bonus video. such a waste!

QUOTE=kexodusc]"Killing" is an exaggeration.
The general consensus I've read is that proving a correlation between file sharing and eroding cd sales has proven extremely difficult for the music industry. I'm not aware of any studies that have withstood any scrutiny and proved a cause and effect relationship that puts a directly proportional blame on file-sharing for declining sales. I'll admit to not reading every study, and would love to see one.
The industry's biggest and best argument remains intuition. It's intuitive to think some people are not buying when they can just download - nobody's going to deny that - I'm sure many do - but the challenge remains providing evidence suggesting a decrease in sales in the last several years is directly a result of file sharing, and solely or even mostly responsible for it.
The RIAA won't even deny that a economic downturn that reduced disposable income, competition from alternative entertainment/media from DVD's, XM radio, legit online music purchases and even crappy, re-hashed product has been killing he industry more than downloading has (not to mention there've been 3 years of sales increases since Napster hit mainstream working against them). All of these factors are certainly largely responsible for significant portions of the decline in sales. I don't see the RIAA producing studies attributing losses to these factors though.

I'm sure it's responsible for hurting some artists, and it's definitely responsible for preventing some sales, but it also helps others. Does it offset? I doubt it - but I don't think it's as bad as the industry would have you believe.
The best study I'm aware of came from Harvard in 2004 which basically demonstrated that most downloading was for music people weren't ever going to pay money for - whereas the industry studies make the assumption that all downloaded music was going to be purchased otherwise - countering the lost-sales argument, and that a significant amount of downloading actually led to sales (trying new artists,etc). It's easy to find in google a good 50 + page read.

I think you're right in saying downloading has adverse effects, but measuring it conclusively still remains a challenge.

(FWIW: I'd like to mention I'm not a hippy anti-capitalist, anti-industry nutbar either...more like a pro-artist, hypocrite that prefers buying most of the time).[/QUOTE]

[Dusty Chalk]

I agree that there is definitely a lack of quality material, but to say that downloading isnt having an adverse affect on the industry is wrong, in my opinion...I'm not trying to start a flame war here, i just think its definitely hurting album sales...Well, as long as you realize that it's your opinion and not fact, I think I can live with those statements. :)

[Woochifer]

Here's a NY Times article about the dilemma of porn in HD.

In Raw World of Sex Movies, High Definition Could Be a View Too Real (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/22/business/media/22porn.html?em&ex=1169614800&en=a02bc9090d122b96&ei=5087%0A)

A lot of interesting quotes in the article ...


“The biggest problem is razor burn,” said Stormy Daniels, an actress, writer and director.

Ms. Daniels is also a skeptic. “I’m not 100 percent sure why anyone would want to see their porn in HD,” she said.

“You can see things you cannot see with the naked eye. You see skin blemishes; you see cottage cheese,” said Robbie D. “But some cellulite is not necessarily a bad thing. It’s kind of sexy.”

During a scene in which she played a desperate housewife, she ran into a problem: the high-definition camera revealed she had a tiny ill-placed pimple.

“We kept stopping and trying to hide it. We put on makeup and powder, but there was no way,” Ms. Samson said. Finally, they tried another approach: “We just changed positions,” she said.

[Woochifer]

Nobody can demonstrate a conclusive trend that downloading music affects the sales of tangible disc formats? seriously? Its been killing the music industry.

As others have pointed out, the decline of the music industry is a lot more complicated than just downloading. The industry's been trying to scapegoat consumer copying for their sales woes for more than three decades. This time around, a lot of things hit the music industry all at the same time. I think the PBS/Frontline documentary The Way The Music Died (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/music/view/) lays out a very well reasoned and factual case for how the music industry wound up where it is. Basically, they said that a "perfect storm" hit the industry consisting of market factors such as:

- music industry consolidation (more conglomerates, more cross-marketing, less focus just on music)
- radio industry consolidation
- the false market expectations created by the advent of the CD (fewer people repopulating their music collections with CDs nowadays than when buyers were dumping their LPs and cassettes)
- retail industry consolidation (rise of Wal-Mart and Best Buy as the primary places to buy CDs, fall of dedicated music stores)
- the movement towards marketing hit singles, rather than quality albums
- general artistic drought (the next big thing in music still hasn't emerged yet)
- internet downloading (definitely a factor, but certainly not the only one)

I would also add competition from other forms of home entertainment such as the DVD and video games. Consumers only have so much to spend on home entertainment, and when a new format sweeps the market like the DVD, it shifts spending away from CDs. The DVD has led people to repopulate their video libraries from VHS to DVD, whereas hardly anyone is still transitioning from LP or cassette over to CD. Same thing goes for video games, which has been riding a wave of popularity spurred on by the Playstation series (and to a lesser degree, the Xbox and Gamecube).

And there's also simple greed. The music industry introduced the CD at a premium price (roughly 60-80% higher than LPs and cassettes) because of higher production costs. But, once production costs went down, the new release CD prices never went down. And once the LP and cassette formats disappeared from the major labels, the CD prices stayed high. Consumers can see the folly in this if the stodgy old CD format still charges upwards of $16-$18 for a new release, while the newer multimedia DVDs go for only a few dollars more and can do multichannel audio and include all kinds of new features.

The music industry is basically in the same state as they were in the early-80s when the industry went into a tailspin, and had to compete with the then-new mediums of home video and video console gaming. Coupled with music that was void of new ideas and energy, and the industry was in the doldrums. Yet, just as they are right now, the music industry decided to put the blame squarely on cassette copying by trying to get Congress to impose a royalty on all blank tape sales.

Basically, the music industry pulled out of its hole because of new and interesting music getting into the market, the emergence of MTV as a new marketing tool, and the introduction of the CD which led to a mass movement of music fans repurchasing their entire music collections.

I think it will take a similar shot in the arm to get things back on track this time around. First and foremost, some new massive movement in music has to register with the buying public. Also, the industry needs to ride of the internet as a marketing tool in much the same way that cable TV and music videos stirred up interest in all sorts of new artists.

And then, you have to give people reason to repurchase their music collections, and this is really the trickiest part of all because most people are fine with the sound quality of two-channel CDs and want downloadable convenience and portability more than anything. I thought that multichannel had a chance to provide that incentive, or perhaps hitching the CD to the DVD bandwagon. But, the music industry has so thoroughly botched the marketing and pricing on any type of value added music album purchase, that their window of opportunity is closing rapidly as consumers rapidly go online and on the go.

[Duds]

HA!!! i think there's some truth to it as well, along with some other reasons stated by others as well.


Well, as long as you realize that it's your opinion and not fact, I think I can live with those statements. :)

[Duds]

You make a lot of good points.

The point about marketing hit singles has definitely changed in recent years. Remember when they actually used to release cd singles, and way back in the day, the $.49 and $.99 cent cassette single? well, they rarely do that these days. Why? well, the record companies felt that the single was "canibalizing" album sales. People were only buying the hit single, and passing up on the album when it was released.

I also think an ardument could be made that places like Wal-Mart and BEst buy have helped reduce the decline of cd sales by offering new releases at a price point that consumers are willing to pay, whereas the dedicated music store cant afford to sel at the same price. Cds to Best Buy and Wal-Mart are simply "loss leaders," they are willing to sell them below their cost with hopes that the customer will buy something else at the same time. Sales of TVs, appliances, etc also off-set the losses on musc sales.

There's definitely more to it than just downloading, I think I came across in my original post that it was the onyl thing hurting the industry, which isnt the case at all. Maybe "killing" was too strong of a word. hehe


As others have pointed out, the decline of the music industry is a lot more complicated than just downloading. The industry's been trying to scapegoat consumer copying for their sales woes for more than three decades. This time around, a lot of things hit the music industry all at the same time. I think the PBS/Frontline documentary The Way The Music Died (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/music/view/) lays out a very well reasoned and factual case for how the music industry wound up where it is. Basically, they said that a "perfect storm" hit the industry consisting of market factors such as:

- music industry consolidation (more conglomerates, more cross-marketing, less focus just on music)
- radio industry consolidation
- the false market expectations created by the advent of the CD (fewer people repopulating their music collections with CDs nowadays than when buyers were dumping their LPs and cassettes)
- retail industry consolidation (rise of Wal-Mart and Best Buy as the primary places to buy CDs, fall of dedicated music stores)
- the movement towards marketing hit singles, rather than quality albums
- general artistic drought (the next big thing in music still hasn't emerged yet)
- internet downloading (definitely a factor, but certainly not the only one)

I would also add competition from other forms of home entertainment such as the DVD and video games. Consumers only have so much to spend on home entertainment, and when a new format sweeps the market like the DVD, it shifts spending away from CDs. The DVD has led people to repopulate their video libraries from VHS to DVD, whereas hardly anyone is still transitioning from LP or cassette over to CD. Same thing goes for video games, which has been riding a wave of popularity spurred on by the Playstation series (and to a lesser degree, the Xbox and Gamecube).

And there's also simple greed. The music industry introduced the CD at a premium price (roughly 60-80% higher than LPs and cassettes) because of higher production costs. But, once production costs went down, the new release CD prices never went down. And once the LP and cassette formats disappeared from the major labels, the CD prices stayed high. Consumers can see the folly in this if the stodgy old CD format still charges upwards of $16-$18 for a new release, while the newer multimedia DVDs go for only a few dollars more and can do multichannel audio and include all kinds of new features.

The music industry is basically in the same state as they were in the early-80s when the industry went into a tailspin, and had to compete with the then-new mediums of home video and video console gaming. Coupled with music that was void of new ideas and energy, and the industry was in the doldrums. Yet, just as they are right now, the music industry decided to put the blame squarely on cassette copying by trying to get Congress to impose a royalty on all blank tape sales.

Basically, the music industry pulled out of its hole because of new and interesting music getting into the market, the emergence of MTV as a new marketing tool, and the introduction of the CD which led to a mass movement of music fans repurchasing their entire music collections.

I think it will take a similar shot in the arm to get things back on track this time around. First and foremost, some new massive movement in music has to register with the buying public. Also, the industry needs to ride of the internet as a marketing tool in much the same way that cable TV and music videos stirred up interest in all sorts of new artists.

And then, you have to give people reason to repurchase their music collections, and this is really the trickiest part of all because most people are fine with the sound quality of two-channel CDs and want downloadable convenience and portability more than anything. I thought that multichannel had a chance to provide that incentive, or perhaps hitching the CD to the DVD bandwagon. But, the music industry has so thoroughly botched the marketing and pricing on any type of value added music album purchase, that their window of opportunity is closing rapidly as consumers rapidly go online and on the go.