Preamp/quality of audio

[JNorth1178]

My question: How much does the preamp in a system affect the qualiry of the sound in a stereo system? I have an Anthem MCA20 amp and a Rotel RC1070 preamp. Would I improve the quality of sound by upgrading my preamp? Thanks in advance for any help on this point. JNorth1178

[basite]

preamps determine alot of the sound, not that the rotel is bad though...

keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Carl Reid]

My question: How much does the preamp in a system affect the qualiry of the sound in a stereo system? I have an Anthem MCA20 amp and a Rotel RC1070 preamp. Would I improve the quality of sound by upgrading my preamp? Thanks in advance for any help on this point. JNorth1178

I agree with Basite's comments:

Preamps play a big role in sound quality.... but that does not mean that you will get the best improvement by changing your pre...

Obviously, I'm biased being a Rotel 1070 owner, but unless you are willing to spend substantially more money than what you spent on the 1070, I doubt you'll get a worthwhile improvement in sound quality.

What kind of speakers are you using? Since changing speakers and room accoustics have the greatest impact on sound quality...

[JNorth1178]

I have B&W 805s. speakers

[Carl Reid]

I have B&W 805s. speakers

That should be a great match.... I initially bought my Rotels with the initention of eventually purchasing either the 805s or 804.... Since I really liked the sound of those pairings in the store's listening room...

So what about the sound of your setup are you disatisfied with? since all of your components listed; amp, pre and speakers are all fine products in their own rights...

[JNorth1178]

Carl: No, I am very pleased with the sound. Just wondering if there was something more that I could strive for. I guess that is what makes this audio so interesting. Like golf you can never, hard as you try, reach perfection. Good listening. JNorth1178

[Mr Peabody]

Most high end shops will arrange some kind of home demo of their equipment. You should pick a preamp to try, to see what effect you will get. Although Rotel is a fine product, I don't think it's a secret that preamps aren't' their strong point. I personally feel Rotel has a distinct sound quality and it may be interesting to see how you view the change in your system's sound.

[Carl Reid]

Although Rotel is a fine product, I don't think it's a secret that preamps aren't' their strong point.


Sorry can't agree with that statement, neither professional reviews nor customer feedbacks would lead me to the conclusion that there is something wrong with their preamps.... Are U saying that they make a bad $700 pre-amp? Since the RC1070 is just $700....

Of course, I'll admit that there are better pre-amps out there for more money... Classe, Mark Levinson, Bryston, etc... etc... etc... but as I said... for more money... usually a lot more money....

[Carl Reid]

Carl: No, I am very pleased with the sound. Just wondering if there was something more that I could strive for. I guess that is what makes this audio so interesting. Like golf you can never, hard as you try, reach perfection. Good listening. JNorth1178

Oh no worries... I thought you had a specific problem with the sound.... if you're just looking for better sound, then of the components listed... I would agree with looking for a more expensive Pre-amp first... then the amp... I think your speakers are really good already...

Depending on your budget, you might want to check out new or used Classe or Bryston Pre-amps... Those should probably take you to the next level...

What's your budget? if you state that, then hopefully some of the guys with a bit more experience with higher end pre-amps will be able to make some other recommendations...

And there's nothing wrong with upgrading... if you have the money and the desire... go for it... heck... I think my setup sounds really good for mid-fi or basic entry level hi-fi but first chance I get I'll probably start upgrading anyway.... Good Luck with your search...

[JNorth1178]

Following thru with suggeestion that I listen to some other preamps, I was wondering if the Anthem TLPI would be a step up from the Rotel RC 1070? My budget is around $1000 JNorth1178

[Carl Reid]

Following thru with suggeestion that I listen to some other preamps, I was wondering if the Anthem TLPI would be a step up from the Rotel RC 1070? My budget is around $1000 JNorth1178

Based on my experiences with both the Rotel RC 1070 and the Anthem TLP1 I would definitely say NO.... I tried out both The TLP1 and the RC1070 when I was shopping around for a pre....

What you're considering doing is a lateral movement rather than an upgrade... Both Preamps are highly regarded in the same price class... I honestly think that if you want to step things up, you are better checking out used preamps for your budget....

But I think you should still check out the TLP1 and draw your own conclusion on it....I prefered the Rotel over it... but you may not come to that same conclusion... just don't expect to be overwhelmed by the difference between the two...

[JNorth1178]

Thanks for that input, Carl. JNorth1178

[JoeE SP9]

For around $1000 you should check out a used Conrad Johnson or Audio Research tube preamp. They will both sound better than what you have been listening to.:idea:

[Mr Peabody]

The comment made about preamps not being Rotel's strong point was made to me by our local Rotel dealer and echoed by a few other Rotel users. I didn't take that to mean the preamps were necessarily bad but maybe they weren't as good as other Rotel pieces as far as performance per dollar. On the other hand, as you point out, there really isn't much competition in it's price range.

The only Anthem preamp I've heard was the AVM-20. To me it sounded better than anything previously listened to from Rotel. That doesn't mean the TL would be a big difference though. However, the two Anthem pieces may have a synergy being from the same manufactuerer, that your current set up don't have. Rotel dealer here uses B&W where the Anthem people use Paradigm. That will be some difference but I perceived a difference in the type of sound Rotel goes for verses Anthem. I've heard Rotel much more times and they give music a laid back or almost a slower tempo to me. But my perspective comes from brands like Krell and Arcam whose presentation is very fast.

[JNorth1178]

Mr. Peabody: Do you think the AVM 20 wouod be a step up from the Rotel RC 1070? Where does the Audio Research peamps fit in to the picture?

[Mr Peabody]

To me, it did, but the AVM-20 is a preamp/processor. If you are sticking with just 2 channel you are better buying a preamp where all the money goes to sound instead of processing and such you won't use.

Also, I respect Rotel, but their sound does not appeal to me. So keep that in mind while weighing my answers.

For $1k, you could get a pretty good step up on the used market. That's probably your best bet for an increase in sound quality. Another place an upgrade always helps is the source. You can find some very good used DAC's for much less then $1k and probably a killer for $1k. The EAD-7000 and some of the Conrad Johnson solid state can be found for under $500.00 and should give you a substantial gain. If you can find any of the Audio Note DAC's, the 1.1x should be under $1k used, that is an outstanding DAC.

[JNorth1178]

I am going to show just how much of an amateur I am. What is a DAC? You may want to boot me off of this forum, but I am just a novice. JNorth1178

[JoeE SP9]

A DAC is an Ananlog to Digital converter. It takes the didital output from your DVD/CD player and converts it to analog. All CD/DVD players and all MC receivers have one built in. Many think external DAC's are better than the internal ones in most devices. A lot of people think ARC and CJ preamps are better than most of what's available.:idea:

[JNorth1178]

How would you comare the Parasound Halo P3 preamp to the Rotel RC 1070?

[basite]

how about a primaluna tube pre?
like this one:
http://www.primaluna.nl/products_subpage1a3.htm

or maybe a cary pre? don't know their prices though...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Glen B]

Carl: No, I am very pleased with the sound. Just wondering if there was something more that I could strive for. I guess that is what makes this audio so interesting. Like golf you can never, hard as you try, reach perfection. Good listening. JNorth1178

While I agree with the preamp recommendations here, if you are "very pleased with the sound" at this time then why change anything ? As they say, if it ain't broke don't fix it. If I were in your shoes I would spend the money on CDs instead, until I got tired of my system. THEN I would consider an upgrade.

[Feanor]

How would you comare the Parasound Halo P3 preamp to the Rotel RC 1070?

Having heard neither, but knowing that they are in a similar price range and targeting the same market segment, I would not expect a hugh difference in sound quality. So my comparison would center around the specific functionality of each unit.

For example, the P3 has balanced, XLR inputs and outputs whereas the RC1070 has only single-ended, RCA connections. Since my power amp prefers balanced signals, the balanced outputs are a significant issue for me but they probably aren't for you.

If you are looking for a significantly "different" sound from your preamp, you will need to look at more expensive solid state preamps, or at tube preamps which are also likely to be more expensive.

I personally am not interested in tube preamps, but if I were I'd check out this one.

Mapletree Audio Design Ultra 4A SE Special Edition ...
http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/#preamps
$800, (new)

[Mr Peabody]

In my book, a DAC is a DAC whether it's in a single box or outboard. Any sound difference will depend on the individual unit and how good the analog circuits are. But, if one already has a player, sometimes you can get a larger gain by just adding the DAC and using your existing unit as transport. In my second system I added an old Conrad Johnson DAC to a Denon CD player, and the improvement was huge, for just $450.00 used. No single cdp would give me that improvement unless I spent at least double the money. This is probably a great example because the Denon/CJ combo is the source for an Adcom gfp-450 and gfa-5400. The gfp-450 only cost around $400.00. I really don't think going to a $1k preamp would give me as much of an improvement as adding the DAC.

[minye]

In my book, a DAC is a DAC whether it's in a single box or outboard. Any sound difference will depend on the individual unit and how good the analog circuits are. But, if one already has a player, sometimes you can get a larger gain by just adding the DAC and using your existing unit as transport. In my second system I added an old Conrad Johnson DAC to a Denon CD player, and the improvement was huge, for just $450.00 used. No single cdp would give me that improvement unless I spent at least double the money. This is probably a great example because the Denon/CJ combo is the source for an Adcom gfp-450 and gfa-5400. The gfp-450 only cost around $400.00. I really don't think going to a $1k preamp would give me as much of an improvement as adding the DAC.

Mr Peabody,

How do you rate these older single function DAC like Aragon D2A, D2A2 or the CJ you mentioned compared to the DACs inside the highend HT processor like Lexicon MC1 or Proceed AVP?

If I use a good processor like Proceed AVP that also offer very good 2 channel performance, what kind of seperate DAC is the entry one to beat the AVP? How much I need to spend?

Thanks

[Mr Peabody]

Minye, I hesitate to comment as I've not heard Lexicon, and very little Proceed. I'd think it would be pretty close, if not better, at least with the Proceed. Proceed is Mark Levinson product and I'm sure it's high quality. If you got your hands on something like that and had a good transport, like in a well built DVD player, music ought to soun very good. It would be difficult to say what would be better without a reference point.

[nightflier]

I have an older Aragon D2A that is pretty amazing. I paid $80 for it, and were it not for My MSB DAC (with upgrades), I'd still be using it. It certainly was an upgrade for my $80 DVD player at the time: more depth, more range, larger soundstage - it was as if I had purchased a new player.

The only issue I had with it had nothing to do with sound: it is wider (I think 20") than standard components and I had to set it on top of my rack, under the record player.

[minye]

Nightflier,

I also got a good deal of Aragon D2A. It is quite impressive for both performance and looking. The large and pretty heavy box (external power section) just does a 2 channel D/A converting job. Though it uses older chips, power section and circuits are also important to the final performance. It certainly sounds better than my Pioneer Elite DVD player. But I am not sure if it can beat my HT processor and I am gonna do more test.

[Mr Peabody]

Minye, your ARC preamp with the Bryston amp should be a great 2 channel system. With a good source it should sound better than the Lexicon in stereo.

[minye]

Minye, your ARC preamp with the Bryston amp should be a great 2 channel system. With a good source it should sound better than the Lexicon in stereo.

I agree with you. I got better image and smoother sound from the one tubed LS2B.

My question here is which one is a "better source". I connect to old Aragon D2A to ARC LS2 for music. But recently I replaced my HT processor from Lexicon to a Proceed AVP. This Levinson stuff is really awasome. Twice heavy and better 2 channel sound than Lexicon. It may have better DAC performance than the Aragon D2A. Can I connect the AVP to the tube ARC preamp? And how?

[Mr Peabody]

You'll have to use the Proceed as both preamp and DAC to the Bryston to see how it sounds. There's no way.that I'm aware of to use the Proceed's DAC by itself. You really wouldn't want to try using both preamps at the same time. It would be interesting to hear which preamp sounds the best in stereo. If you think the LS2 still sounds best, your only move would be to find a better source.

[minye]

I just hooked the AVP up last night. I will do more compare later. But my first impression for the AVP 2 channel is really not bad. The background is so quiet and my Studio40s seem to dispear. The sound is neutral. Anyway I feel its 2-channel is pretty close to the D2A and LS2B combination. It seems my D2A is not good enough here...

[Dusty Chalk]

...my Studio40s seem to dispear. The sound is neutral...Excellent, well done! You do realize this is the ultimate goal you may have just achieved?

[minye]

Excellent, well done! You do realize this is the ultimate goal you may have just achieved?

Well, thanks. I know that is a good thing to happen. But sometimes, due to my limit 2-channel experience, I am just not that sure about the result I got. I say to myself: Is it what I am supposed to get? Is that little difference what I should get after putting in a big $$$ (compared to my HT stuff) 2 channel preamp? Is that so called "sweet" or "warmer"?

It is quite interesting to step further in stereo side. There seems to be lots more things to explore and lot more money I need to prepare...and I wish I have more time to listen...

[Mr Peabody]

Minye, the ARC is a good preamp and it will be difficult to find a pre/pro to equal it. The Proceed may. Just trust your ears and don't worry about "supposed to" as much as "does this please me?"

I spent a lot of time and money in pursuit of the most accurate system I could afford. I listened to a lot of components and instead of really listening for pleasure, I tried to pick what I thought was the most accurate. After finally putting together what I felt was accurate, I did have a great sounding system but when I listened I still wasn't satisfied. After listening and eventually switching out every component except my speakers I have a very satisfying system to my ears when I sit down to listen and I am no longer on that component merry-go-round. I still have very good components, they just have different presentation. Totally different than what I originally thought I wanted. But maybe it's that trial and error, or ride on the Merry-go-round, that helps us realize what we want.

I think what I'm trying to say is don't have preconceived ideas and listen to your feelings, and ears, as you audition.

[minye]

Thanks for the advice, Mr. Peabody. I begin to understand what you said. " I wasn't quite sure what I was looking for but I knew when I found it."

[recchi]

Pre amps are a critical component in the reproduction process. But good speakers also play a major role. The one thing most people overlook are interconnects. This being said you don't have to drop 500 bucks on good interconnects. Check out Monster Cable, AudioQuest, Cardas, Transparent, and MIT Terminators. They all provide mid-level cost alternatives when it comes to interconnects (40 to 100 dollar range).

Also, speaker placement can be critical too. Experiement and have some fun with it. The great thing about all of this is the beauty of learning what works and what doesn't. As time goes by you become more familiar with what does sound good and what doesn't. In other words you get those, "Golden Ears."