It's Another Titanic Sub Thread

[SlumpBuster]

So I got the 15" Titanic MKIII. My wife ultimately nixed me getting an HDTV, but said I could spend the money on a subwoofer. Truth be told, I'm more musicly inclined anyway, so a sub rather than an HDTV was okay by me. So with approx. $2500 budget in hand I sought out a new sub, and came in almost 80%under budget. :cornut:

A recent thread on diminishing returns got alot of action. For the record, I discovered that dimishing returns sets in for me on subs at about $580. :D or the cost of the Titanic. I went to all the shops in my area and looked at Paradigm, B&W, Dynaudio, Velodyne, ect. It didn't take me long to figure out that a really didn't want to pay retail mark up on a sub. Besides, only the Paradigm 12" Seismic and Velodyne SPL15 intrigued me, and both seemed to be trying too hard to get big sub permormance out of a small box.

So then I considered all the usual suspects for online shopping. SVS, HSU, Rocket, Axiom.

I got it narrowed down to the expensive option: Velodyne SPL15; the middle option: SVS 16-46 PC-Plus; the cheap option: the Titanic; and the wildcard: Dual Rockets. With sealed subs getting preference over ported.

Ultimately I decided on the Titanic because it is big honkin' driver; with a big honkin' amp, in a big honkin' sealed box. The Velodyne seemed gimicky and too reliant on extreme cone travel. The SVS while nice, apparently uses the same Dayton driver. Looking at the pictures on the websites the SVS driver used in the PC-Plus line looks suspiciously like the Titanic. Given that SVS and Dayton are both in Ohio, it was a coincidence that can't be ignored.

Needless to say, I'm very pleased with my choice. Since size and appearance wasn't really an issue to me, the Titanic was a great option.
Appearance wise: The Titanic looks much better in real life than it does in pictures. The website pics don't do it justice.
Size wise: It seems that with subs alot of manufacturers are trying to get around the fact that size can really be an important factor in good performance. Bigger is often better.

As for performance, I've got a reasonably smooth response from 20hz - 80hz +/- 4db with a nasty -9db dip at 40hz at listening position. But a dip is better than a hump, IMHO. I'm using the built-in single frequency parametric eq and a cheap old Teac graphic eq just for goofs. I'm gonna add either the BFD or a different analog Behringer GEQ. The BFD seems more targeted, reliable, and respected, but the GEQ may be fun too and allow me to mess around with EQing my mains too. Its like I'm a kid in a candy store knowing that I can get flat from 20-80hz +/- 2or 3db, the fun part is thinking/figuring how to get there.

My only complaint is the lack of a logo on the grill. This is a nice enough product that someone should be taking credit for it. :D

Thanks for letting me share.

[JoeE SP9]

What did you do with the rest of the money? Did you buy a stack of vinyl?:ihih:

[Florian]

Sorry but humps are better then dips. A hump is easily lowered while this is not possible with a dip

[L.J.]

Congrats! Yeah, that baby is a beast!!

I never gotta chance to do anything with mine except put it together, make sure it worked and then box it up for 2 months of storage. I only got one more week before it gets pulled out and moved to it's new home. I can't wait. :)

[bobsticks]

Congrats Slumpbuster. There are a few things better than getting new toys--but not many. Have fun and try not to knock pistures off the walls.

Hey LJ, I take it you are relocating?

[GMichael]

Congrats from me too. That thing is a monster!

[SlumpBuster]

Sorry but humps are better then dips. A hump is easily lowered while this is not possible with a dip

Why can't a dip be raised as easily? I got rid of the dip using the parametric EQ on the amp. But since it is only a single frequency EQ I moved it down to 20hz and boosted there. At least that is how I have it for know until I have a better fix. Am I missing something? You seem to know a thing or two about correction.

I was thinking of a dip being better than a hump in terms of listening experience. It's harder to hear something missing than something being exagerated.

I actually ordered it before Christmas but had to exchange the amp. Smooth exchange, but I only got up and running last weekend. I had to hunt down a nasty 60hz ground loop. Seems it was a combination of my older (1983) amp that does not have a polarized three prong power cord and my cable TV line. But, its quite as a K-Fed autograph signing now.

My old sub, 8" 130 watt Velodyne, is in line with the center channel which is set to "Large" now. That has made a surprising difference too.

Worked the new sub out this weekend with the new Gwen Stefani record, and a bunch of DVDs including the movie Crank, Star Wars Episode III, Blue Man Group Complex Rock Tour, Shakira Live in Holland, and AC/DC Live in Donnington. We've got a bunch of contractors working on a bathroom remodeling and I think the music (noise?) was bumming them out.

[Woochifer]

Why can't a dip be raised as easily? I got rid of the dip using the parametric EQ on the amp. But since it is only a single frequency EQ I moved it down to 20hz and boosted there. At least that is how I have it for know until I have a better fix. Am I missing something? You seem to know a thing or two about correction.

Flo's right on this. Because an acoustical interaction that produces a dip is actually cancelling out the sound wave at that frequency relative to your seated position, you should not use an EQ to boost that frequency. Keep in mind that the cancellation only occurs at your seated position, and does not occur at other locations. If you use the EQ to boost a frequency cancellation, it will have minimal effect at your listening position, but can produce a gigantic boomy peak for others sitting elsewhere in the room if you have to use a big boost to raise the frequency dip. Plus, you open up the possibility of overexerting the driver and the amp, and using an EQ to boost a signal also introduces noise and possible distortion into the signal path.

Boomy peaks are much easier to tame because you're simply lowering the level.


I was thinking of a dip being better than a hump in terms of listening experience. It's harder to hear something missing than something being exagerated.

You're correct in the listening sense. But, in terms of correcting for room-induced bass problems with an EQ, the dips are far more difficult to remedy.

[SlumpBuster]

Flo's right on this. Because an acoustical interaction that produces a dip is actually cancelling out the sound wave at that frequency relative to your seated position, you should not use an EQ to boost that frequency. Keep in mind that the cancellation only occurs at your seated position, and does not occur at other locations. If you use the EQ to boost a frequency cancellation, it will have minimal effect at your listening position, but can produce a gigantic boomy peak for others sitting elsewhere in the room if you have to use a big boost to raise the frequency dip. Plus, you open up the possibility of overexerting the driver and the amp, and using an EQ to boost a signal also introduces noise and possible distortion into the signal path.


Thanks. That makes alot of sense. Looks like I have some rearranging to do.

[L.J.]

Hey LJ, I take it you are relocating?

Yep. Not going far, but moving still sucks. I grabbed the sub while it was on sale, knowing that I would have to just box it up for a few months. It will be one of the first items unpacked :)

My unpacking rules are simple

1. Speakers
2. BBQ grill
3. Bed

Ah, the essentials. Everything else slowly after.

[kexodusc]

That thing is still a damn attractive performer at that price. It's curious that the number of these Parts Express sells hasn't prompted some other models from competitors. Adire's Rava I think use to be in that ball park price wise and was a nice alternative to the 12" Titanic. Must not be enough money in the sub business?

I built the 12" for my parents 2+ years ago now - I still don't see commercial brand offerings coming close at that price point. Dayton's since introduced a few better woofers but haven't put them in an easy to build kit form yet. I think Titanic has a brand identity - maybe we'll see an MK IV in the future?


Sorry but humps are better then dips. A hump is easily lowered while this is not possible with a dip
When it comes to EQ'ing, this is correct. Do not try boosting that frequency.

But one man's dip is another man's hump....

You can usually reposition the sub to mitigate the dip's adverse effects - if not, a broader cut applied to the rest of the band could be needed. With only 1 filter on the Titanic you might have a tough decision to make. People usually apply a slight boost at the bottom end of the Titanic witht that filter. +3 to +6 max though - otherwise you're eating up gobs of power. In many small to medium size rooms the boost won't be necessary.

I've always found errors of omission to be more pleasing than errors of addition when it comes to speakers, subs included. The human ear will pickup on the added noise, but most ears won't tune into a slightly lower volume of some frequency, unless it's targeted by the source. If I was forced to choose between one or the other, I'd always take the dip. Without at least another 2 filters, you might be forced to take a hit somewhere.

[SlumpBuster]

Yeah, I was already eyeballin' the Behringer Feedback Destroyer to use as a parametric EQ. But, I think I may try a graphic eq first just for the fun factor. Or, I may end up using both. Unfortunately, I'm stuck using positioning and EQing for correction. I'm not really able to use any room treatments that aren't also furniture.

[Woochifer]

That thing is still a damn attractive performer at that price. It's curious that the number of these Parts Express sells hasn't prompted some other models from competitors. Adire's Rava I think use to be in that ball park price wise and was a nice alternative to the 12" Titanic. Must not be enough money in the sub business?

It looks like Adire has pared down their product lineup to just the drivers, which was their primary market anyway. They got out of the prefinished speaker business when they started building their production facility down in Chile, and never got back into that market once their facility ramped up. Nowadays they also do a lot of OEM production and contract R&D for other companies, so they don't really need the consumer market anymore, which tends to be highly price competitive, demanding on customer service resources, and low margin compared to the wholesale OEM and DIY markets. Too bad, because the Rava and their other subs were great values.

I know that Acoustic Visions sells DIY kits and prefinished subs built around Adire's drivers, but they cost more than the $400 that the Rava cost. I can easily see how Adire did not make a lot of money off the $400 Rava. The list prices on the amp and the Shiva driver alone totaled $300, which left $100 for the enclosure and assembly. Considering that Acoustic Visions sells their sealed Shiva enclosure for $150, the Rava actually cost less than the retail value of the parts and that did not even include assembly.

They had the specs for a Rava II subwoofer on their website until about a year ago. Looked amazing, and it was slated to sell with a list price of $800 through Adire's dealers. But, when the amp that the Rava II was supposed to use got discontinued, they deleted it from their website. And now they're out of the sub amp market altogether (though it made sense for them since they were just a reseller and not a manufacturer with amps).


Yeah, I was already eyeballin' the Behringer Feedback Destroyer to use as a parametric EQ. But, I think I may try a graphic eq first just for the fun factor. Or, I may end up using both. Unfortunately, I'm stuck using positioning and EQing for correction. I'm not really able to use any room treatments that aren't also furniture.

The graphic EQ probably won't do much unless the center point for the frequency band just happens to coincide with the problem frequencies you have with your sub at its current location. Otherwise, you really need the precision of a parametric EQ, which allows for pinpoint frequency selection and fine tuning on the bandwidth, to make the room corrections accurately.

The BFD is a great buy because it does the job and it doesn't cost much. Positioning and EQ'ing can provide great sounding bass even without room treatments.

[SlumpBuster]

Yeah, that's why I suggest the GEQ only for "fun." When I was looking at the BFD, I saw that Behringer also had a 31 band GEQ for like a $130. Now I'm not expecting studio reference for $130, but for $130 it might be fun to play around with. I'm still a child of 70's so the GEQ looks cool to me. :D What can I say?

I'm also toying with the idea of two BFD's, one for the sub and one for the mains. Honestly, I haven't graphed my mains. Probably a project for this weekend. It the journey and not the arrival that is the most fun, IMHO.

BTW, Wooch, your subwoofer links have been very helpful.

[Woochifer]

Yeah, that's why I suggest the GEQ only for "fun." When I was looking at the BFD, I saw that Behringer also had a 31 band GEQ for like a $130. Now I'm not expecting studio reference for $130, but for $130 it might be fun to play around with. I'm still a child of 70's so the GEQ looks cool to me. :D What can I say?

I'm also toying with the idea of two BFD's, one for the sub and one for the mains. Honestly, I haven't graphed my mains. Probably a project for this weekend. It the journey and not the arrival that is the most fun, IMHO.

BTW, Wooch, your subwoofer links have been very helpful.

31 bands?! Alright, so it might not be quite as effective at taking care of bass issues, but it will definitely give a cool light show! :cool: Just make sure that you don't dig too far into the 70s and set up the EQ with that "smiley face" look on the controls!

With the BFD, I've heard that while it works great as a subwoofer EQ, it's less than optimal for the mains. People on other boards who've tried it with their mains have noted that it adds noise and coloration to the signal. These are not issues with the low frequencies, but are supposedly more noticeable in the midrange and highs. But, no harm in buying one BFD and trying it out with your mains first to see if the results are acceptable. If so, you can buy the second unit, if not, just keep the first one plugged into the subwoofer and be happy.

The BFD Guide site that I linked to on my website has spawned its own discussion group, which you should check out if you want to learn more about the BFD. The guys who post there are very advanced in the home audio applications for the BFD.

Cruising around that site you'll also see a lot of references to the Room-EQ Wizard (REW). It's an open source (i.e., freeware) Java-based application that a lot of them use for benchmarking their systems, and it has an auto calibration feature that will suggest settings for your BFD (the application also includes a MIDI connection that you can use to connect your computer to the BFD). I started using the REW a couple of months ago, and has a lot of very useful features like the frequency response graphing, and time domain waterfall plotting.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-rew-forum/