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jwilliams
01-13-2007, 04:04 PM
Hi all,
First time I've posted, and am hoping maybe some of you might care to offer some suggestions...

I am a dance teacher using my laptop and Bose Companion speakers for class which is fine when there is ~20 people in a small hall. I'm looking to buy a system to use for gym size rooms with 80-100 people. Mostly I'll still be using my laptop, but occasionally will have live musicians (fiddle & piano). I've been to all the pro audio places in my area and told such a variety of things I don't know what to believe.

Any suggestions/comments about the Bose 802 system, Yorkville (Elite or pulse series) or Yamaha stagepas 300? I'm only able to spend in the $1000 - $2000 range for the everything. The music is mostly fiddle/piano and sometimes accordian/drum/keyboard.
Thanks for any help!
Totally confused in Ottawa.

spasticteapot
01-13-2007, 05:26 PM
Hi all,
First time I've posted, and am hoping maybe some of you might care to offer some suggestions...

I am a dance teacher using my laptop and Bose Companion speakers for class which is fine when there is ~20 people in a small hall. I'm looking to buy a system to use for gym size rooms with 80-100 people. Mostly I'll still be using my laptop, but occasionally will have live musicians (fiddle & piano). I've been to all the pro audio places in my area and told such a variety of things I don't know what to believe.

Any suggestions/comments about the Bose 802 system, Yorkville (Elite or pulse series) or Yamaha stagepas 300? I'm only able to spend in the $1000 - $2000 range for the everything. The music is mostly fiddle/piano and sometimes accordian/drum/keyboard.
Thanks for any help!
Totally confused in Ottawa.
Line arrays. You want some line arrays.

http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/array/array.htm

There's a lot of ways to do these, but generally the formula is simple.

1. Get lots and lots of mid-woofers. Put them one on top of another either in a box or open baffle.
2. Get either one really good tweeter, or mutliple tweeters. One tweeter makes more sense for home listening; multiple tweeters for PA use. You want multiple tweeters.
3.Put the tweeter either in the dead center of the array, or multiple tweeters right next to the woofers, as close as possible. Generally, the closer are the tweeters are to each other and the mid-woofers, the better.
4. Build a crossover at the point that the assorted formulas dictate. You're better off bi-amping with an active crossover. This means you have one stereo power amplifier for the tweeters, and one for the woofers, and one for the sub-woofers, with a small electronic filter (essentially a few $5 op-amps and some capacitors and resistors - they're cheap!) between the pre-amplifier and the power amplifiers. This results in much greater efficiency, and a lower cost.
5. Add subwoofers, preferably one per speaker. If you're on a budget and need lots of power, four 8" Silver Flute woofers per side would be great - you'd have a massive amount of bass with a cost of under $40 per driver.

There's a couple of approaches to designing these - I'm hardly an expert. However, aside from the terriffic efficiency (sixteen drivers per side means +28db of efficiency and 16x the power handling!) the biggest advantage lies in that the more drivers you have, the lower the distortion will (usually) be.

The boxes are also pretty simple - some drivers don't need boxes at all.

While directionality can be a problem, these can often be surprisingly economical. For example, the NS4-193-8e is a very nice speaker driver for only $8.50 in quantity - 32 of them, for 16 per side, would only be $272 plus shipping. While the treble won't work past 5khz due to comb filtering, you'll get very nice results from about 100hz on up.

An example of these in a much smaller array:
(it's near the bottom)
http://www.diyparadise.com/fetish/fetish.html

For the tweeters, you'll want them spaced as close together as possible in one up-down line. A nice bet is the ND20FB, which is only $5 each - sixteen of these per side will be more than adequate, and result in a two-foot-high line that should give plenty of treble up to a very high frequency before comb filtering is a problem - and the active crossover can help fix that.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-035

This adds $160 to the cost of drivers.

Alternately, you can go with some Bohlender-Graebner Neo3-PDRs. These are planar tweeters, which eliminate many of the issues with combing, and they're also of much better quality. However, this is reflected in the pricetag - $40 each in quanities of four or more.

You'll want at least four per side, for a cost of $320 - however, eight may not be a bad idea. Thankfully, you can always buy more later, and because planar tweeters are immune to most problems with comb filtering (which happens when you have lots of individual sources of sound), I might consider these instead.

Add either two or four of these per side in ported boxes - you may as well just stick the arrays on top of them. These are essentially mini-arrays of four drivers - but they're big drivers!

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=9624137.6456&pid=1638

Two woofers per side is likely more than adequate, and will run you an additional $160.

The total cost would then be $270 for the mid-woofers, $160 for the sub-woofers, and either $160 or $320 depending on which type of tweeter you get. This results in a total cost for the drivers of $590 for the dome-tweeter version and $750 for the planar tweeter version.

For the amplifer modules, I would go with the Hypex UCD180's, at about $100 each, or the UCD400's, at about $150 each. These are "amplifier modules" - connect wires to the inputs, outputs, and power leads, and you're done. You'll need six, so you'll be paying $600 or $900.

These are highly efficient amplifier modules, and you'll need the power - 540 watts per channel for the 180's, or 1200 watts per channel for the 400's. I'm not sure you'll need that much power, though - the max power of the tweeters would be 160 watts, so the 180's will be more than adequate if you give them sufficient ventilation, even if used for hours.

For the active crossover, you'll want some OPA627's or similarly high-quality op-amps. You'll need quite a lot - most active filters use tw or three op-amps, and you'll need six active filters. The exact design depends on how, exactly, you build you speakers, but I doubt that the total cost would be more than $100 or so.

Alternately, you can get a pair of Behringer DEQ2496 active EQ modules. These would allow you ease of use and excellent performance, but at a price - $350 each. However, if you want reliable, pro-level gear, this is the way to go. (I'd go with a pair of simple active filters for the subwoofers - all you really need is a "low-pass", which is very simple indeed.)

So, here's the layout for a pair of very nice line arrays:

Midwoofers - $270
Tweeters - $320
Sub-woofers - $160
Hypex UCD180's - $600
Behringer DEQ2496s(2x) - $700
High density fiberboard (HDF) for cabinets - $100

Total: $2200.

EDIT:

By eliminating the Behringers, you can save $600 or so, for a total cost of only $1500.

blackraven
01-13-2007, 05:28 PM
Are you looking to buy a receiver as well as speakers? And will you be moving the speakers around? For $1000-2000 you can buy audiophile speakers instead of the way over priced bose.

spasticteapot
01-13-2007, 06:07 PM
Are you looking to buy a receiver as well as speakers? And will you be moving the speakers around? For $1000-2000 you can buy audiophile speakers instead of the way over priced bose.

I should mention that the setup above only needs an iPod, CD player, or other source to be attached - it's got the amplification built-in.

540 watts per channel should be more than adequate, especially with super-efficient speakers.

jwilliams
01-13-2007, 06:12 PM
I'll be moving these from my house to the event locations (gyms) and home again about twice a month, so something that can be moved around in a Honda Element is what I need. I've been told by sales guys that I need a small powered mixer, in addition to the speakers.

FLZapped
01-13-2007, 06:19 PM
Hi all,
First time I've posted, and am hoping maybe some of you might care to offer some suggestions...

I am a dance teacher using my laptop and Bose Companion speakers for class which is fine when there is ~20 people in a small hall. I'm looking to buy a system to use for gym size rooms with 80-100 people. Mostly I'll still be using my laptop, but occasionally will have live musicians (fiddle & piano). I've been to all the pro audio places in my area and told such a variety of things I don't know what to believe.

Any suggestions/comments about the Bose 802 system, Yorkville (Elite or pulse series) or Yamaha stagepas 300? I'm only able to spend in the $1000 - $2000 range for the everything. The music is mostly fiddle/piano and sometimes accordian/drum/keyboard.
Thanks for any help!
Totally confused in Ottawa.


A better place to go would be here:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/

-Bruce

spasticteapot
01-13-2007, 06:34 PM
I'll be moving these from my house to the event locations (gyms) and home again about twice a month, so something that can be moved around in a Honda Element is what I need. I've been told by sales guys that I need a small powered mixer, in addition to the speakers.

A pair of the above line arrays using 16 drivers could be less than six feet tall. If you folded down the passenger seat, it would fit, and because they're pretty narrow, you could fit them on a roof rack if nothing else.

As a side benifit, you can put the amplifiers inside the speakers, and put the EQ's in a 2U rack. In other words, you'd have a control unit the size of a briefcase, and two speakers that you could move around on a dolley, as opposed to having a gargantuan power amplifier weighing a ton and two speakers. (While they woul be very tall, they'd only be about a foot wide.)

emorphien
01-13-2007, 08:32 PM
Line arrays. You want some line arrays.

http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/array/array.htm

There's a lot of ways to do these, but generally the formula is simple.

1. Get lots and lots of mid-woofers. Put them one on top of another either in a box or open baffle.
2. Get either one really good tweeter, or mutliple tweeters. One tweeter makes more sense for home listening; multiple tweeters for PA use. You want multiple tweeters.
3.Put the tweeter either in the dead center of the array, or multiple tweeters right next to the woofers, as close as possible. Generally, the closer are the tweeters are to each other and the mid-woofers, the better.
4. Build a crossover at the point that the assorted formulas dictate. You're better off bi-amping with an active crossover. This means you have one stereo power amplifier for the tweeters, and one for the woofers, and one for the sub-woofers, with a small electronic filter (essentially a few $5 op-amps and some capacitors and resistors - they're cheap!) between the pre-amplifier and the power amplifiers. This results in much greater efficiency, and a lower cost.
5. Add subwoofers, preferably one per speaker. If you're on a budget and need lots of power, four 8" Silver Flute woofers per side would be great - you'd have a massive amount of bass with a cost of under $40 per driver.

There's a couple of approaches to designing these - I'm hardly an expert. However, aside from the terriffic efficiency (sixteen drivers per side means +28db of efficiency and 16x the power handling!) the biggest advantage lies in that the more drivers you have, the lower the distortion will (usually) be.

The boxes are also pretty simple - some drivers don't need boxes at all.

While directionality can be a problem, these can often be surprisingly economical. For example, the NS4-193-8e is a very nice speaker driver for only $8.50 in quantity - 32 of them, for 16 per side, would only be $272 plus shipping. While the treble won't work past 5khz due to comb filtering, you'll get very nice results from about 100hz on up.

An example of these in a much smaller array:
(it's near the bottom)
http://www.diyparadise.com/fetish/fetish.html

For the tweeters, you'll want them spaced as close together as possible in one up-down line. A nice bet is the ND20FB, which is only $5 each - sixteen of these per side will be more than adequate, and result in a two-foot-high line that should give plenty of treble up to a very high frequency before comb filtering is a problem - and the active crossover can help fix that.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=275-035

This adds $160 to the cost of drivers.

Alternately, you can go with some Bohlender-Graebner Neo3-PDRs. These are planar tweeters, which eliminate many of the issues with combing, and they're also of much better quality. However, this is reflected in the pricetag - $40 each in quanities of four or more.

You'll want at least four per side, for a cost of $320 - however, eight may not be a bad idea. Thankfully, you can always buy more later, and because planar tweeters are immune to most problems with comb filtering (which happens when you have lots of individual sources of sound), I might consider these instead.

Add either two or four of these per side in ported boxes - you may as well just stick the arrays on top of them. These are essentially mini-arrays of four drivers - but they're big drivers!

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=9624137.6456&pid=1638

Two woofers per side is likely more than adequate, and will run you an additional $160.

The total cost would then be $270 for the mid-woofers, $160 for the sub-woofers, and either $160 or $320 depending on which type of tweeter you get. This results in a total cost for the drivers of $590 for the dome-tweeter version and $750 for the planar tweeter version.

For the amplifer modules, I would go with the Hypex UCD180's, at about $100 each, or the UCD400's, at about $150 each. These are "amplifier modules" - connect wires to the inputs, outputs, and power leads, and you're done. You'll need six, so you'll be paying $600 or $900.

These are highly efficient amplifier modules, and you'll need the power - 540 watts per channel for the 180's, or 1200 watts per channel for the 400's. I'm not sure you'll need that much power, though - the max power of the tweeters would be 160 watts, so the 180's will be more than adequate if you give them sufficient ventilation, even if used for hours.

For the active crossover, you'll want some OPA627's or similarly high-quality op-amps. You'll need quite a lot - most active filters use tw or three op-amps, and you'll need six active filters. The exact design depends on how, exactly, you build you speakers, but I doubt that the total cost would be more than $100 or so.

Alternately, you can get a pair of Behringer DEQ2496 active EQ modules. These would allow you ease of use and excellent performance, but at a price - $350 each. However, if you want reliable, pro-level gear, this is the way to go. (I'd go with a pair of simple active filters for the subwoofers - all you really need is a "low-pass", which is very simple indeed.)

So, here's the layout for a pair of very nice line arrays:

Midwoofers - $270
Tweeters - $320
Sub-woofers - $160
Hypex UCD180's - $600
Behringer DEQ2496s(2x) - $700
High density fiberboard (HDF) for cabinets - $100

Total: $2200.

EDIT:

By eliminating the Behringers, you can save $600 or so, for a total cost of only $1500.
I'm sorry, did you just tell this person to build two line arrays on their own? And was the cost of materials scraping the top of their budget? Somehow I doubt this person puts no value to his or her time, and if he/she has no experience in making speakers this is a really BAD idea if one wants to keep on budget.

I swear, DIY people seem to have screws loose sometimes.

spasticteapot
01-13-2007, 10:07 PM
I'm sorry, did you just tell this person to build two line arrays on their own? And was the cost of materials scraping the top of their budget? Somehow I doubt this person puts no value to his or her time, and if he/she has no experience in making speakers this is a really BAD idea if one wants to keep on budget.

I swear, DIY people seem to have screws loose sometimes.

Well, yes. The above option is more difficult, will require assembly, and will require a bit of work to set up. On the other hand, it's far superior to, well....almost anything. This is "audophiles brag about owning them" equipment with professional-grade DSP and amplifiers.

Active speakers with DSP equalizers like the Behringer are also very easy. Plug in the drivers, and put the output through a microphone to find how much treble it puts out with a signal of a given power. Then, compensate for peaks and dips by changing the EQ settings, which takes a few minutes. You can adjust for various rooms and whatnot, too - there's a reason these things cost $350 each.

Also, the design I mentioned above could be divided into a 2' tall woofer section and a 4 1/2' tall mid/tweeter section - just stack one on top of the other.

The boxes themselves would also be simple - you could get them made by any competent high-schooler in woodshop class. The woofer box would be just that - a box with two holes in one end, a bit of internal reinforcement, and a bit of PVC pipe sticking through a hole in the back. The top would be the same, except with more holes. This is not rocket science.

Line arrays have their problems, though. If you want to try a different approach, go for old-school - big, horn-loaded speakers like the Klipsch Heresys or Altec Valencias. These are often surprisingly inexpensive, built like tanks, and seeing how they're usually thirty or more years old, with a bit of maintenace it's no surprise that they should last that long again.

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/heresy-ii.aspx
http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/la-scala.aspx

Big ol' horns have another advantage, too - unusually high efficiency. These speakers were meant to use a freakishly tiny amount of power, and can do a lot with it. The Valencias, for example, are rated 105db efficient - most normal speakers are 88db or less efficient. When you consider that every three decibels requires double the power, and every ten decibels is equal to doubling the volume, the advantage becomes apparent - these speakers on ten watts will do what many others will do on three hundred.

This means that your amplifier suddently drops in size from massive to tiny.

If you're getting a pair of 100+ db/w speakers like the LaScalas , you can use the Sonic Impact Super T-amp. It's $130, puts out seven watts per power, is the size of a sandwich, has been critically acclaimed, and can also be run off of a car battery, if, for some reason, you ever need to.

Add the mixer of your choice (I'm a fan of used gear - Caig Fader Lube is the best thing ever!) and you have a set-up that, once again, audiophiles would approve of.

For old-school horn experts, check out audiokarma.org.

As to the "screw loose" comment....

I'm building a pair of speakers based loosely on the Bohlender-Graebner Z1's.

Except I'm using better woofers, bi-amping with an active crossover, and paying 1/3 as much for them.

emorphien
01-13-2007, 10:12 PM
You do realize I have nothing against DIY, however there's a time and a place and a purpose for it. It doesn't work for everyone at all times. For many people it works out to be more cost effective to just buy something off the shelf.

In fact for me, I lack the tools, time, materials and facilities to do the kind of DIY I really want to do but if I have a chance I will probably start playing around with some DIY built on existing boxes in the next few years. I can't do any of the fun things I want to do unfortunately, but I will consider myself lucky if I just get a chance to dabble in it considering I'll be leashed to a thesis for the next 3-4 years.

SlumpBuster
01-13-2007, 10:16 PM
I swear, DIY people seem to have screws loose sometimes.

No doubt. These are some really bizzare answers for a newbie dancer that want portability and ease of use in a PA system.

For the price and your use, the Yamaha would be tough to beat.http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-STAGEPAS-300-Portable-PA-System?sku=480818

spasticteapot
01-13-2007, 10:30 PM
No doubt. These are some really bizzare answers for a newbie dancer that want portability and ease of use in a PA system.

For the price and your use, the Yamaha would be tough to beat.http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-STAGEPAS-300-Portable-PA-System?sku=480818

Ooh...that is nice.

See my comments above on old-school horns, though. A pair of Klipsch LaScalas