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Robert-The-Rambler
01-10-2007, 06:44 PM
I've been watching quite a bit of HD-DVD on my 65" Hitachi rear projection TV and the more I do I have come to the conclusion that the picture quality is way better than my Sanyo PLV-Z5 LCD projector. The black levels are not even close. Neither is the contrast. The CRTs simply destroy the LCDs in every way. I've seen the 1080p Plasmas at stores and I can't see the improvement much at all when it comes to HD-DVD. I can't find much wrong with the picture at all when viewed with a 1080p source. I do notice some flicker when viewing 1080i broadcasts but I really don't care that much about TV. I bought the TV for movies and it is delivering the goods. Are the only benefits of Plasmas and LCDs the weight and depth?

This the TV I picked up.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=151066&catOid=-12870&c=1&cm_re=main%20marquee-_-Save%20up%20to%20$600%20on%20select%20TVs-_-Hitachi%2065

Woochifer
01-10-2007, 06:56 PM
I think you answered your own question. There's so much confusion in the market right now because every TV technology has a glaring weakness of some kind.

And I would further add that direct view CRT HDTVs absolutely crush all of the other designs I've seen as far as picture quality goes. A friend of mine has a 34" direct view CRT and the picture quality there surpasses anything else I've seen, and it doesn't have the problems with SD programming that fixed pixel designs like LCD and plasma have. The issue with direct view CRT is the bulk and weight, and the limitations on the screen size.

Robert-The-Rambler
01-10-2007, 07:06 PM
I think you answered your own question. There's so much confusion in the market right now because every TV technology has a glaring weakness of some kind.

And I would further add that direct view CRT HDTVs absolutely crush all of the other designs I've seen as far as picture quality goes. A friend of mine has a 34" direct view CRT and the picture quality there surpasses anything else I've seen, and it doesn't have the problems with SD programming that fixed pixel designs like LCD and plasma have. The issue with direct view CRT is the bulk and weight, and the limitations on the screen size.

I have an Insignia 30" Widescreen Direct View HDTV in my room and for under 300 dollars that is simply an amazing marvel. Most people don't realize that the new Plasmas and LCDs can only display their native resolution so pixelation is caused by stretching a lower resolution image into a higher resolution. CRTs are 480p, 720p and 1080i so you see everything in its native format. The key question is CRT the best choice for your Home Theater?

Blue Meanie
01-10-2007, 10:28 PM
I have an Insignia 30" Widescreen Direct View HDTV in my room and for under 300 dollars that is simply an amazing marvel. Most people don't realize that the new Plasmas and LCDs can only display their native resolution so pixelation is caused by stretching a lower resolution image into a higher resolution. CRTs are 480p, 720p and 1080i so you see everything in its native format. The key question is CRT the best choice for your Home Theater?

Insignia, as in Best Buy? 30" HDTV for under $300 (sweet deal)?:skep: How'd you manage that? At gunpoint?:cornut: The only 30" Insignia HDTV on their website shows a price of $549. Can you get ME one???

Jeff

Palmz
01-10-2007, 10:45 PM
Just have to say that Insignia is the one no-name brand you should always consider. I'm no pro, but did my research on TV's before buying my Panasonic 42" Plasma (TH42PX60) and in so doing found out that all Insignia's are contracted by Best Buy & Future Shop (Best Buy's adopted Canadian child) to major manufacturers for production. Usually noone in the store can tell you who manufacturs what because it changes frequently and almost each model is produced by someone different. Think of it like Safeway Ice Cream. It's made by Breyers but costs way less.

PS - Forgive me if you all already knew that, I just learned that and found it so interesting.

edtyct
01-11-2007, 07:14 AM
I have an Insignia 30" Widescreen Direct View HDTV in my room and for under 300 dollars that is simply an amazing marvel. Most people don't realize that the new Plasmas and LCDs can only display their native resolution so pixelation is caused by stretching a lower resolution image into a higher resolution. CRTs are 480p, 720p and 1080i so you see everything in its native format. The key question is CRT the best choice for your Home Theater?

The native-resolution versatility is a point well taken. But part of what makes a lower-resolution signal look good, comparatively, is the size of the screen, regardless of the technology. A small display simply looks tighter because the gaps in the picture elements are less conspicuous. On the larger CRTs, however, native 480 can look pretty dreary; many of the RP varieties upconvert to a higher resolution (540p) in attempt to mitigate the effect. Also, one thing you'll never see on a CRT of any size or make is 1080p (let alone 720p). Even if this resolution distinguishes itself from 720p only within a certain viewing distance by screen size, it still represents HD without flicker, and with a fill factor that can cover for a multitude of processing sins.

Have any of you champions of CRT seen a well-appointed LCoS display? The good blacks and the smooth look are not to be easily dismissed. Even SD can look pretty good. I saw the Colbert Report via analog cable the other night on a calibrated 1080p SXRD, using its own internal processing. It was nothing short of stunning--not unduly soft, not unduly jagged, and not unduly noisy.

Robert-The-Rambler
01-11-2007, 08:41 PM
Insignia, as in Best Buy? 30" HDTV for under $300 (sweet deal)?:skep: How'd you manage that? At gunpoint?:cornut: The only 30" Insignia HDTV on their website shows a price of $549. Can you get ME one???

Jeff

They also gave me 10% off a discontinued product. Unfortunately it is now $550 for the newer model. The picture is absolutely amazing. It does 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Keep your eye out for clearance/open box and run in when you can to get them while the getting is good.

Robert-The-Rambler
01-11-2007, 08:44 PM
Just have to say that Insignia is the one no-name brand you should always consider. I'm no pro, but did my research on TV's before buying my Panasonic 42" Plasma (TH42PX60) and in so doing found out that all Insignia's are contracted by Best Buy & Future Shop (Best Buy's adopted Canadian child) to major manufacturers for production. Usually noone in the store can tell you who manufacturs what because it changes frequently and almost each model is produced by someone different. Think of it like Safeway Ice Cream. It's made by Breyers but costs way less.

PS - Forgive me if you all already knew that, I just learned that and found it so interesting.

I do know that the quality is amazing.

Blue Meanie
01-12-2007, 05:32 PM
They also gave me 10% off a discontinued product. Unfortunately it is now $550 for the newer model. The picture is absolutely amazing. It does 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Keep your eye out for clearance/open box and run in when you can to get them while the getting is good.

Well, congrats on getting such a good deal!:thumbsup: And thanks for the info!:cornut: I will keep my eyes peeled...

Jeff

BillyB
01-13-2007, 05:08 AM
I placed a similar thread in the video forum the other day.My existing non-HD Sony Wega 36" 4X3 flat screen CRT has an amazing picture that is going to be very hard to beat.That being said it's not an HD set(didn't think it was worth buying an HD set that wasn't able to properly view widescreen)so of course I'm counting on the HD resolution to make the difference when I buy the Panasonic 50" 720P plasma I'm shopping for.I'm basically prepared for the non-HD signals to look much worse on the plasma than they do on my Sony CRT but do hope to be pleasantly surprised.There is certainly something very sweet about a large wall mounted display that is only 4" thick and can be mounted almost anywhere.The big plasmas and LCD's just keep improving so if the budget isn't a major issue they are the nicest looking displays out there.Enjoy

spf
01-17-2007, 05:01 AM
Have any of you champions of CRT seen a well-appointed LCoS display? The good blacks and the smooth look are not to be easily dismissed. Even SD can look pretty good. I saw the Colbert Report via analog cable the other night on a calibrated 1080p SXRD, using its own internal processing. It was nothing short of stunning--not unduly soft, not unduly jagged, and not unduly noisy.


Wholeheartedly agree with edtyct on the LCoS sets. They look to be the true heir of the CRT displays for PQ. Once the manufacturing costs become more reasonable, I believe that these sets will overtake DLP and LCD projection. I purchased a 50" Sony SXRD about a month ago and I can't believe the quality of even SD programming let alone HD. My DVD movies look better than my friend's BluRay flicks on his Samsung 42" DLP. Mind you, neither of the 1080p formats have been impressing me so far.

Shane

kexodusc
01-17-2007, 06:15 AM
I'm in the CRT camp when it comes to over-all picture quality still, though as prices continue to come down for newer technologies, I'm slowly converting. The picture quality advantage CRT had for the money is shrinking, fast. Combined with the space and convenience afforded by slimmer designs (and this IS important), I'm glad these newer technologies are catching on and pushing each other.
I think I've bought my last CRT, and look forward to something new next time around.

CRT had what? 40 years to refine its technology? I bet in a few years we'll figure out how to make LCD/Plasma/DLP make everyone forget it.

edtyct
01-17-2007, 06:48 AM
Kex, the digital curve is a lot steeper than the analog from scratch curve. The advances in CRT design were relatively few over the years; they didn't move substantially forward until the digital revolution that carried with it the prospect of completely new HD designs. There may well be a ceiling on LCD, plasma, and DLP that will prevent them from reaching heights unrecognizable from where we stand now. But if they are able to sustain serious evolution, one question is, At what point would the changes turn them into new technologies? In certain respects, LCoS builds on the foundations laid by LCD and DLP, but it is certainly something new in its own right. On picture quality alone, many of CRT's strengths can be duplicated on a cross-section of the newer digital technologies, and a few popular models can nearly do it all, and then some. When it comes to professional monitors, for which price is no object, CRT is no longer king. For now, what will make most consumers forget CRT is a concatenation of features, novelties, and benefits (driven by the engine of marketing and production strategy). For those enthusiasts who refuse to budge in the face of insurmountable odds, the reason will probably be a mixture of subjective preference and that old high-end nostalgia--bolstered, no doubt, with all sorts of arcane, intransigent, and self-validating arguments--that often emerges when a great technology faces extinction. I should know. I've heard the siren call myself.

kexodusc
01-17-2007, 08:02 AM
There's something of a proverb in my line of work - "never fall in love with your bets".
I think the same can be applied to a/v gear - humanity is obsessed with stories of failure more so than stories of success - for every person that roots for something to succeed, there's 2 hoping for it to fail.
When a technology faces extinction, it's almost always because it's being replaced by something better.
To me, if I could have the same picture quality, in a slimmer profile, at the same price, that's better - anything after that is just gravy!

musicman1999
01-17-2007, 12:32 PM
Has anyone checked out the SED display format?If the reports are correct they offer the picture quality of CRT with a flat profile.First sets are supposed to appear in late 2007 or early 2008.This could be the future of flat panels.

bill

edtyct
01-17-2007, 12:49 PM
With all of its promise, SED presents two problems at this point--production capacity and price. We don't know much about feasibity yet, but speculation about high cost is rampant. Of course, Canon/Toshiba won't have much of a rollout without buyers lined up, and buyers won't line up unless the price is right and sets are available. Sound familiar?

musicman1999
01-17-2007, 12:58 PM
You are right but it appears to be promising technology.As demand goes up so will production and price will come down.It may find life as a higher end display for those willing to pay for quality.Wait that sounds familiar as well does it not.

bill

edtyct
01-17-2007, 01:38 PM
I hope that Canon and Toshiba can make it work. With the way they've been shuffling their feet, they don't seem too sure either. Who knows?

thekid
01-17-2007, 07:51 PM
PQ issues aside I went with my 34" inch Sony CRT TV because even though prices are coming down for the various other technology TV they are (IMO) still relatively speaking high for what TV's used to cost and if I was going to pay that kind of money I wanted a TV that would last. IMO all the other relatively new technologies have not been around long enough for anyone to determine their longevity. I have had CRT based TV's last 20 years and feel comfortable that my new CRT based TV will probably give me close to the same. If you consider people are paying 2k-4k+ for a lot of these flat panels that may last only 10yrs that averages to $200-$400 a year for the TV which is what traditional CRT TV's used to cost. Maybe I am just getting old but when you take in the PQ and the over all value relative to the flat panels CRT seems to me the better deal. But then again I walk into a store and see a new 50" flat panel and I start to drool.... :)

edtyct
01-18-2007, 07:48 AM
If you're planning to wait another ten to twenty years to find out whether plasma, LCD, DLP, LCoS, etc. are reliable enough to earn your coin, you'd better re-think. They won't be around that long. Analog CRT was the only show in town for longer than half a century. It had a monopoly on the market, largely free from the need for either competitive re-tooling or severe technological upgrading. Life cycles for digital products are much shorter, and, in many ways, the displays themselves require less maintenance than CRTs do. Furthermore, though you may have kept your CRT for twenty years, you probably didn't notice that the phosphers were dimming and the spot beam was spreading. The demands on CRT since the HD age began are much heavier than they used to be, while build quality, attention to detail, and R&D have seriously declined or evaporated. Deterioration of a CRT over time is much more likely to be noticeable now that resolution is so fine and the pressure to perform so unrelenting.

I disagree that the new technologies haven't been around long enough to be assessed properly. LCD is as old as the hills, having originated as a computer monitor. Plasma has the better part of a decade under its belt as a consumer format. Computer chips, circuit boards, and other electronic elements are no longer new, even if specific chips are. Early adopters still face the abyss even with digital products, but the learning curve need not be so steep thereafter. Prices, I'm afraid, will never return to what they once were. Time, inflation, and glamour have removed cost as a basis for comparison between CRT in its heyday and the state of the art today.

thekid
01-19-2007, 07:09 PM
Ed

Some of the technoligies you mention have been around but not neccessarily in this capacity. I have not had the most positive experience with my LCD screen laptops. One of the reasons plasmas were so expensive were that a large % of them were junked off the production line so you were paying for all the failures at the beginning.

Don't get me wrong I will go flat panel at some point it is just that like a lot of new electronics the prices will eventually come down. By the time their prices are closer to my liking the repair histories will be more known.

recoveryone
01-20-2007, 04:36 PM
I just had some work done on my CRT and the first thing the repair guy said to me, was to stick with this hardware and not jump into the others LCD, DLP..... and it was not over PQ. It was that way the others are wired. He was telling me how if one of the color chips goes out you have to replace the whole board, unlike with CRT, you only change out that tube/Lens. Now I haven't seen a LCoSs yet, but on the others I own a LCD for the bedroom and it works great (for the space) but its not match against the CRT in the main viewing room. And I have DLP projector I use with my Laptop and it shows an awesome PQ. And that is where I would head if I dumped my CRT is a DLP projector.

And by the way the guy that came out to do some work on my CRT was great. He saw the blurring problem I was having and spent the next 2.5 hours checking solder's and swapped out color modules to narrow the problem down to a weak green tube. He only charged me $40.00 cause he couldn't completely fix it all. The blurring is gone :) but he wanted to fix it to the point of it being back to factory spec's. Now thats CUSTOMER SERVICE. and I won't really mind paying the $200 for the new tube when he gets it from Mits.

edtyct
01-31-2007, 01:14 PM
Toshiba has officially divested itself of all involvement with SED. Canon is all alone. Now what?

bobsticks
01-31-2007, 01:41 PM
I disagree that the new technologies haven't been around long enough to be assessed properly. LCD is as old as the hills, having originated as a computer monitor. Plasma has the better part of a decade under its belt as a consumer format..

Yup. I've had a plasma for three and a half years without so much as a flicker. The LCDs in the bedroom and the office function, to these eyes, exactly as when new.These technologies are tried and true and IMNHO delaying gratification for "the next big thing" is silly. Besides, the NBT will have a NBT price tag.

On the other hand, how about them Hitachi 1080p's getting ready to be released. Might be time for an upgrade, hehe. Happy Columbus Day to me.

Cheers

Robert-The-Rambler
01-31-2007, 01:49 PM
Yup. I've had a plasma for three and a half years without so much as a flicker. The LCDs in the bedroom and the office function, to these eyes, exactly as when new.These technologies are tried and true and IMNHO delaying gratification for "the next big thing" is silly. Besides, the NBT will have a NBT price tag.

On the other hand, how about them Hitachi 1080p's getting ready to be released. Might be time for an upgrade, hehe. Happy Columbus Day to me.

Cheers

I didn't say it. They did.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/retailing_HD-DVD_Blu-ray.htm

Here is a paragraph from the article.

Both HD-DVD and Blu-ray have all of the progressively scanned 1080-lines per frame of information on the disc, and this information is not lost or compromised in 1080i transmission. The transmission interface is simply a matter of the order in which the scanlines are read and transmitted to the video display. If they are transmitted in 1080p, they are sent sequentially. If they are transmitted in 1080i, they are sent in two fields, with one containing the odd numbered lines and another the even numbered lines. These two fields are then reassembled into sequential frames by the video processor in the TV or projector. Either way you end up with the full 1080p frame being used to create the picture, so there is no difference in the end result.

edtyct
01-31-2007, 02:25 PM
The quotation is right, but the effective transformation of 1080i to 1080p requires, first, a 1080p display and, second, a 1080p display with adequate reverse 2:3 pulldown. If the second condition isn't met, the display will be subject to judder, twitter, and jaggies, which presumably wouldn't occur if the DVD player were responsible for delivering 1080p. The best scenario occurs when the source outputs 1080p/24fps, and the display is able to accept it w/o conversion to 30 or 60 fps. But it's not a deal breaker w/o it.