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KaiWinters
01-10-2007, 11:40 AM
Hi all,
I need several dvd movie recommendations that have above average 5.1.
I am in the process of trying to please my wife by moving my surrounds from behind the couch to the back wall.
I have Paradigm Atoms and Titans, both version 4, to sample as the surrounds.
The surrounds will be wall mounted approx 10 inches from the ceiling and 15 feet from my sofa.
The room config does not support mounting the surrounds on L/R walls as there is no L wall lol.
See the room diagram below for a more detailed look.
I have moved the speakers to the basic location but stand mounted at the top height of the stands, 48 inches. I have also switched the Atoms/Titans back and forth, reset the YPAO of the receiver and used my SPL meter to match the db. When I match the db there is a noticeable reduction of the surround setting compared to using the Star Wars, Return of the Jedi dvd. When I use my ears and the movie I push the settings of the surrounds to 90% of max.
Beyond the movie recommendations any other advice, comments and/or suggestions are most welcome.
Thanks,
Kai

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/Kai_Winters/Living_Diningroomfloorplan.jpg

Woochifer
01-10-2007, 01:39 PM
Am I viewing this correctly in your diagram? You have the surrounds in an adjacent room ~25 feet from the mains? In that kind of a configuration, you won't get consistent readings from a SPL meter nor will you get optimal surround performance.

In actuality, you should keep the surrounds no further than about 9' from the listening position, if your mains sit about 9' from the couch. If you have no place to wall mount them, you could try using a bracket and suspend them from the ceiling (just make sure that the speakers do not point straight down). Or look into options for tall stands right around the couch. The reference alignment used in mixing studios is diagramed below. As you can see, a big amount of space behind the couch is not necessary (nor desired, unless you're using a 7.1 speaker alignment).

http://www.soundstage.com/surrounded/pics/200307_itu.gif

As a rule of thumb, you NEVER use movies to set your surround levels. Way too much variability in how different sound engineers choose to balance the sound effects between the channels. One engineer might aggressively steer ambient sounds into the main and surround channels at roughly equal levels, while another one might use the surrrounds sparingly. One soundtrack might sound louder in the surrounds than another, but that's a deliberate choice by the sound engineer. Only with a SPL meter can you establish a consistent reference point, and then fine tune it from there.

As far as DVD recommendations go, the soundtrack I use for evaluation purposes is Master and Commander. The surround channels are used to create deliberate imaging and spatial cues, and with a properly aligned speaker setup you will really get a strong sense of not only direction but space as well.

recoveryone
01-10-2007, 03:32 PM
Woo is 100% correct, but I too have the same room config problem and my rears are about 7' behind the couch. What I did to help, was to tilt the rears apprx 15-20 deg down toward the listening area. Then re-use your YPAO and let it config your system. If its like the MCACC on the Pioneer's you should be ok. and like Woo said never use an DVD THX optimizer to setup your system. The YPAO or RS analog SP meter. The only real difference is that the surround sound will have a more direct feel to it (which I like more than the disfused sound) IMHO in the real world we hear directional. From the front to our sides and rear. So if someone yells from behind me on the left I don't think it was from either the right or left.

KaiWinters
01-10-2007, 06:15 PM
Thanks for the responses.
I am trying to please my wife by moving the speakers from stands behind the couch to the back wall. She says if it does not work no problem but she gave me the go ahead to buy the plasma I wanted last month so it seems only fair to try to make her request work.
My receiver does allow for "surround back". Would that work in lieu of surround with the speakers mounted on the back wall? The back wall speakers, in this case Paradigm Titan v.4, are currently in the approximate location sitting on the stands at their highest about 55 inches.
I am using the dvd's merely as sound listening not for setting levels. I used the YPAO and then tweaked the volume settings with my SPL meter.
I am used to the R surround speaker sitting 30 inches high and 30 inches from my seat. This is very different from 15 feet away.
Here are a couple of pics that show what I have to work with.
I really appreciate your help and realize that my listening area is far from perfect but I am trying to make the best out of it.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/Kai_Winters/Livingareaview.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/Kai_Winters/Diningareaview.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/Kai_Winters/Rightside.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/Kai_Winters/Leftsidewithdoorclosed.jpg

Woochifer
01-10-2007, 07:08 PM
Thanks for the responses.
I am trying to please my wife by moving the speakers from stands behind the couch to the back wall. She says if it does not work no problem but she gave me the go ahead to buy the plasma I wanted last month so it seems only fair to try to make her request work.
My receiver does allow for "surround back". Would that work in lieu of surround with the speakers mounted on the back wall? The back wall speakers, in this case Paradigm Titan v.4, are currently in the approximate location sitting on the stands at their highest about 55 inches.
I am using the dvd's merely as sound listening not for setting levels. I used the YPAO and then tweaked the volume settings with my SPL meter.
I am used to the R surround speaker sitting 30 inches high and 30 inches from my seat. This is very different from 15 feet away.
Here are a couple of pics that show what I have to work with.
I really appreciate your help and realize that my listening area is far from perfect but I am trying to make the best out of it.

Unfortunately, the back surround output is not a substitute for the regular surround outputs. The back surrounds are in addition to the regular surrounds when the EX/ES decoding is activated. Even if you mount the speakers on the back wall, you still need to use the regular surround output.

I understand the WAF compromises needed to get your toys in place, but going all the way back to the dining area won't work very well. At a practical level, I'm not sure if some one sitting at the dining room table will want to be bombarded with extra loud surround effects if they're not watching the movie.

Your current alignment is not too far off from the reference setting, so you might want to try to preserve that alignment as much as possible. Ceiling mounting might be a good way to go.

KaiWinters
01-11-2007, 04:25 AM
Unfortunately that is my thinking too Woochifer.
I spent roughly 30 minutes listening to Master and Commander...the last 30 to 45 minutes of the movie...and felt the surrounds were totally lacking.
I am probably going to leave the speakers up against the back wall throughout the weekend to show my wife I am trying to make it work but she understands.
I really, really, really do not want to touch the ceiling and hanging Atoms from the ceiling would not look good at all from an aesthetics point of view.
I am not too upset about this whole deal anyway. I was not looking forward to crawling through my "attic" in near total dark over 12" of insulation so I can run wiring. I do not have an "attic" as it were. Just an area above my ceiling and below the roof lol. Because of heavy snow up here our roofing joists are designed as heavy load bearing and leave little room for storage.
I do thank you and recoveryone for you help.
Kai