Forcing Religion?

[JSE]

Why is it that some people feel the need to force their religious beliefs on you. I consider myself religous but I am not a regular church attendee. I believe in God but I don't feel that it is necessary to attend church every Sunday. I have become more and more turned off to the whole "church thing". A lot of churches have become to political and socially driven in recent years and have lost sight of what they are there for. Why can't I simply worship in my own way?

It seems like some people use the whole institution of religion as a crutch to compensate for negative things in their lives like unhappy mariages or just being a bad person in general. It's funny, some of the most religous people have some of the worst things to hide. I have really become skeptical of "overly" religous people in general. I hate that I have become this way, but I seem to be right more often than wrong.

Again, I am not saying I am not religous. I am and I do believe in God. I just don't see the need to be force to practice your religion a certain way. I pray, but I don't necessarily need a church to pray in all the time. I guess this all stems from getting feedback from a few longtime friends that seem to think we are not "good christians" if my wife and I don't attend church every Sunday. We probably go 10 or so times a year. I can say this, my wife and I live much more "sin free" lives than they. Sure, they go confess their sins all the time. Does that make them better than us?

Sorry for the rant and I don't want and don't intend to start a whole believe or don't believe debate. Just been kindof frustrated with the whole religous institution lately.

Any thoughts? Am I going to hell?

JSE

[trollgirl]

JSE, I feel/think much the same as you on the subject of what I call "Churchianity". I think it was in a novel I read some years ago that I saw a statement by a character which so impressed me that I wrote it down. It's at home, and I'm not, so a paraphrase will have to do. The author said, thru the character, that any institution will reach a state where it will give precedence/priority to its own organizational needs, over and above the reasons for which it was created in the first place. That's (maybe) why God shakes things up from time to time...

Laz

[piece-it pete]

Hi JSE.

Keep in mind that many people, when telling you things like "go to church", are trying to help.

That said, God didn't say go to church or go to hell, he said "Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy". So it would seem that if you honor God on Sundays you are fulfilling the law. Of course God also said "If you live by the law, you will die by the law." Hmmm......

I think that the thing here is to be part of the body of Christ, the church. I doubt a loving, forgiving God would send you to a burning Hell for eternity for missing church occasionally, if you're forgiven.

Tough call. I would think regular attendance is a good thing. It also sets a very good example for the kids.

BTW, I'm hardly a paragon of attendance virtue.

Pete

PS Laz, that's an interesting point, one shown time after time thoughout all institutions in history, religous or not. I've heard said that when an idea or organisation becomes an "ism", that thing is no longer a "living" thing. Our current gov't is an excellent example, it's very domineering, extremely large, certainly not what our forefathers expected. It's also the largest landowner in the US, with a union bureaucratic stranglehold on both money & power. When we fall, it won't be from the outside.

[JSE]

Laz,

Wow, we actually agree on something for the most part? Good points.

Pete,

"I think that the thing here is to be part of the body of Christ, the church."

I think this may be towards to root of my problem. I guess I kindof intepret the body of Christ as christians, not necessarily the "physical" Church in it's modern existence. I understand the need for a church, but is it "required" for everyone? Can't you believe in God and be a good person but not "have" to go to chruch all the time or even at all? I do agree it sets a good example for kids and I will more than likely attend much more when I have them but it will be at a church that is not so political. My wife grew up in the Catholic Church so we will probably go that route with our kids.

JSE

[piece-it pete]

Laz,

Wow, we actually agree on something for the most part? Good points.

Pete,

"I think that the thing here is to be part of the body of Christ, the church."

I think this may be towards to root of my problem. I guess I kindof intepret the body of Christ as christians, not necessarily the "physical" Church in it's modern existence. I understand the need for a church, but is it "required" for everyone? Can't you believe in God and be a good person but not "have" to go to chruch all the time or even at all? I do agree it sets a good example for kids and I will more than likely attend much more when I have them but it will be at a church that is not so political. My wife grew up in the Catholic Church so we will probably go that route with our kids.

JSE

Boy, JSE, if you're going to attend Catholic church, you'd better get used to people mentioning your lack of attendance 'cause those folks take it (attendance) VERY seriously. Confession is also mandatory for communion.

The Bible makes it clear He's talking about the church. Jesus as the head, members as the body. But He doesn't specify which church. I've been to many, there are a million types.

But remember, you are forgiven through grace, not actions, faith, not the Law.

Pete

[Widowmaker]

I am a born-again Christian and while I strongly believe in witnessing, I do not believe in forcing people. The LORD did, after all, give us all freedom will and we will all live or die by it. Besides, for every charge of forced religion, I can come up with examples of people being insulted because of their Christian beliefs (just imagine the outrage if we were Jewish instead).

I have a problem with some non-believers that say they have religion "forced" on them. Many think that just sharing or speaking about one's beliefs is having religion forced on them. Some even think that hearing the National Anthem or God Bless America is a forcing of religion which is ridiculous.

BTW, this may be a bit off topic, but here I go. This is what I tell the non-believers when pressed to the issue: if they're right and the LORD is wrong, if there is no God or Heaven or Hell and nothing happens after death, I'll just keep believing what I believe and go into the ground like everyone else. But, if they're wrong and the LORD is right, that there is life after death which He promised in a covenant to His people... some may be in for a shock...

[JSE]

Hey Widowmaker,

I don't think people sharing their beliefs and speaking about them is forcing religion on people and I do feel religion is a big part of life and has a place in just about everything. I don't agree with these left wingers trying to weed out every shred of religion out of every
federal establishment such as courts, money, schools, national anthem, etc. That's crazy.

But, I do have a problem with a person telling someone they are not a good person or not a good christian because they do not regularly attend church. That's also crazy. I guess that's when I feel their trying to force their religion on us. The same friends that tell this to my wife and I have many skeletons in the closet. My buddies wife lied about being on birth control when they already had three kids and were struggling financially. She got pregnant with twins and told my buudy that it must have been God's will. At the time they had three boys and the wife did not want a girl no matter what. She had a miscarriage after #2 and she told us it must have been a girl and God took it from her because she did not want it. #3 was a boy. The twins, #4 and #5 are boy and girl. How are her actions consistent with being a good christian? The wife is extremely religous and will judge others in a heartbeat. Is this being a good christian? My take? Their new little daughter is going to give that Mother a run for her money as she grows up. She will be a female Dennis The Menace. That's why I believe in God and I think he has a bit of a sense of humor. Anyway, I got off topic.

JSE

[nobody]

I don't remember who it was, but my favorite quote I heard once about Christianity was that "Christianity hasn't survived thousands of years because of, but in spite of Christians."

Oh, and I'm a big seperation of church and state guy. Sorry, but it does get old having to hear about Christian tradition everywhere you go. Whether people admit it or not, it does permeate this country.

I don't have any problem whatsoever with what an individual wants to say, expressed as personal belief. I'm a free speech advocate, and would never say an individual doesn't have the right to express their opinions, Christian or otherwise. I just don't see any need for governmental agencies to have to support religious ideals.

I've yet to see where removal of gonernment-sponsored religious endorsements, even down to the "in god we trust" on money, and "one nation under god" of the pledge, would do even the slightest thing to prevent Christians from freely practicing their religion.

[zapr]

........The church is a man made institution and therefore has nothing to do with God. Most people go to church for the wrong reasons. God did not invent the church or religion. Man did for his own selfish reasons. God simply gave us guide lines to live by.......Zapr.

[JSE]

........The church is a man made institution and therefore has nothing to do with God. Most people go to church for the wrong reasons. God did not invent the church or religion. Man did for his own selfish reasons. God simply gave us guide lines to live by.......Zapr.

That really sums it up for me. While I do think the physical church is part of religion as we know it, I don't think it is a required to be a good christian. Your also right in that many people go to church for the wrong reasons. I actually think the fact that I go to church for the right reasons is what ironically turns me off to a lot of modern churches filled with people just trying to make themselves feel better about themselves. They don't truly go to worship but to lessen the "guilt" from their own lives. I see a lot of hypocritical people who go to church every Sunday but lead very sinful lives. They cheat on their wifes/husbands, lie, cheat, etc. I am not judging them and I am glad they are their but at the same time I get a little turned off by it. I admit, I am not the best person in the world and could do much better in certain parts of my life, but I don't lie to myself by thinking just going to church every Sunday will make me a better person. I am the only person that can do that.

JSE

[zapr]

.......Well said JSE. I'm not a religious person but I do believe in God. Live and let live......Zapr

[bturk667]

The Sabbath is actually Saturday.
God is a jealous God, vengance is his name. Read the Old Testiment, God is all about fire and brimstone! The Old Testiment is "cut and dry," not much grey area there. It's God's way or HELL!!!
What your talking about are the teachings of Jesus Christ. Which Testiment is right I wonder, New or Old?
As to what keeps a person from going to Hell? Hell, I don't know, remember I am not a believer. I'll just become worm food when I die, the way I want it.

[bturk667]

The Church is not a man made institution. It was put into motion by Jesus. Remember who Christ said he will build his Church on? Wasn't something like "Peter the Rock?"

[zapr]

..........The church IS a man made institution. How can you have so many different religions,churches. There is only one truth for all of us........Zapr

[Bryan]

It is good for people of the same religious faith to meet and learn more about their faith. It is also good for people of different religions to meet and discuss the pros and cons of their faiths.

Often it is difficult finding a church that teaches about the Word of God in proper context. Pastors interject their opinions in it and it comes accross as being what the Bible says rather than what they think it means.

If you choose to go, excellent. If not, that's fine too. What matters is your faith and what you believe. Your morals and where they came from.

In general, people know it is wrong to lie but why is it wrong? An easy explaination is because it was said thousands of years ago, "Thou shalt not lie." If you remove the word "not" from the ten commandments you end up with a lawless society where morals do not matter.

Looking around in the US it is amazing the number of available parking spaces that churches have. If 25% of the nation attended church on a weekly basis they would be contracting out to expand the lots. Yet this isn't the case.

We are now a society that despises morals. Look no further than California, Hollywood, or even your local tv stations for proof. Multiple sex partners and using profanity are okay. There is little need to marry anymore. Rarely are there ever consequenses for the things you do. Rarely is it ever your fault for someone or something else is to blame. Anything from ADD to my coffee is too hot.

People blame the devil for everything bad yet blame God too. They think they deserve a life of luxery and everything handed to them rather than going out and earning it for themselves. I have news for those people. The devil didn't make you do it. You wanted to do it. God isn't to blame for you put yourself in the situation. No one made you hang out with your so-called friends and get drunk or do drugs. It was your own idiocy that lead to the death of anothers loved one.

Christ was right when He spoke in Mark 12:30 - 31: You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. ... You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no greater commandment than these. Those two commandments are the foundation of our relationship with both God and man.

I would encourage you to visit the various churches in your area and find out their beliefs. If they conflict with the Bible then they are not the right one for you. If what the pastor teaches conflicts with the Word then search elsewhere. Not all churches believe the same thing but it is amazing how similar our core beliefs are. Differences in our core beliefs are negligable at best.

My God is a meciful one, full of love and grace. He is a compassionate one as He can relate to what I am going through. He is a righteous one, unable to stand the sight of sin in His presense. He is a just one, disciplining me when I need it. He is faithful, always either beside me or behind me ready to catch me when I fall. He is one who loves the adoration and praise of His children. He hears my prayers and answers them in His perfect timing and way, even if the answer is disappointing to me. He is personal and never unapproachable. He has a sense of humor. More than anything else, He is my God, providing for all my needs, watching over and protecting me. Because I love Him I want to do those things that please Him even though I often fail. He knows my heart and loves me for who I am. For His grace, mercy, and forgiveness I am forever indebted to Him though serve Him because I want to please Him.

[zapr]

........How many times has the bible been copied, translated?........Zapr.

[Bryan]

Many times though we have, I believe, close to 99.5% (may be 98.5% though I am fairly sure it is closer to 99.5%) of the original source text to go back to. Not bad for 2,000 years.