OK... I'm good...

[royphil345]

Technics SL-1200MK2 arrived.

Got it level, DL-103R mounted in the official Technics headshell...

Set the tracking force to 2.5 grams and the anti-skate to match...

The sound is so "right" I wouldn't know where to start doing any fine-tuning by ear. Main difference seems to be much richer (more complete? or... stabile?) sound over the old Sony PS-X5 and the Rotel belt-drive I've also owned.

The stuff I said about the Rotel phono stage being thin sounding may be complete rubbish (the mids are slightly recessed compared to the NAD). I will eventually give it another try with the new table. It's sounding great with the NAD PP2. Maybe a little too thick in the mids to be considered true "audiophile". Not at all in any way that's the least bit unpleasant to listen to. That's for sure!!!

The music just "flows" from this table / cart combination. Think I'm finally done shopping and can get down to just enjoying the music. :) :) :)

Oh and... Is the difference worth getting up to take the needle off the record?... YES!!! :) :) :)

[JoeE SP9]

Glad you're happy. A new cartridge should slightly improve its sound during the first 10 to 20 hours as the suspension loosens. By then you should be thoroughly in vinyl heaven.:cornut:

[jrhymeammo]

You went thru a complete TT makeover in last 4 weeks......CONGRATULATION!!!!!!!
Sounds like you are content this time around, and I'm happy vicariously.

Too bad you will be buying new speakers, then amp, now your CDs sound absolutely dreadful you gotta get a new player.:biggrin5:

Are you going to get a slipmat I recommended?

Best wishes,

JRA

[royphil345]

Thanks JRA!!!

Yeah... I sure did buy alot more stuff than I was planning on didn't I???...LOL

It was worth it.

Although, I MUST control the "upgrade bug" now. Don't give me ideas!!!

You're sure right about the CD player. I don't plan on using it much for awhile anyway.

I will probably be getting da slipmat... wikki wikki wikki wikki... LOL

[royphil345]

...And it is nice to have the VTA adjustment. You are right again JRA!!! The guy who did the TNT review was worried that the zero setting might not be quite low enough without the spacer he had on his 103. Turns out it can be set quite a bit below the zero mark. Have it set just a smidge under and I can tell my old table would have benefitted from a VTA tweak. Very nice, balanced sound.

[jrhymeammo]

That's awesome man.

With its 0.7 second startup time, you should be catching up to your music for the time you lost between your Sony and your new "wikki wikki FRESH, wikki FRESH FRESH!!!"

I'm curious, how quiet is background noise with your Tek compared to your previous decks?

Is your SL Black or Silver?
JRA

[royphil345]

I haven't noticed rumble or motor noise on any of my tables. It's probably there somewhere under the music or surface noise, nothing serious though. I get the feeling the background is a little quieter with the Technics. Surface noise actually seems a little less with the Technics, while more music is dug out of the grooves. Most seem to agree the arm is the weakest link on this table, but it seems better than what I had. Maybe not as versatile as some...

Had to get the silver one. Old school... wikki wikki wikki... LOL

The torque is cool. Can dust my records with the velvet thing without "helping" the platter turn. The isolation seems very good. All the lights / LEDs look cool. The cuing light spotlights the Denon cart. The electronic braking is a nice touch. Instantly slows the platter down to where it will stop when you barely touch the record to take it off. It feels weird to buy something mass-market where all the parts seem just as well-made and beefy as those on my 1980 table. It is pricey for mass-market... but still...

I'm not sure how it would stack up against a budget audiophile belt-drive in the same price-range. I can't imagine it being completely embarrassed. Works well with the 103. Most people probably buy a cartridge to match their table instead of the other way around... LOL... Works for me. I'm sure I won't feel the need to upgrade anytime soon. I was pretty happy with the cartridge upgrade and phono stage change. Sounds even better now. Richer and a little smoother / more focused due to the adjustable VTA, better arm, possibly quieter background.

Still haven't tried the bigger power supply I bought for the PP-2. Will try the Rotel phono stage again too. With the richer sound of the Technics table... never know...

[Feanor]

...
I'm not sure how it would stack up against a budget audiophile belt-drive in the same price-range. I can't imagine it being completely embarrassed. Works well with the 103. Most people probably buy a cartridge to match their table instead of the other way around... LOL... Works for me. I'm sure I won't feel the need to upgrade anytime soon. I was pretty happy with the cartridge upgrade and phono stage change. Sounds even better now. Richer and a little smoother / more focused due to the adjustable VTA, better arm, possibly quieter background.
...

Congrats on your new 1200 MkII. I'm envious -- believe it! :)

Having just bought a TT myself, I'm now looking for a matching cartridge. Buy a TT to suit the cartridge? Well ... I've always considered the cartridge the more critical of the two, (sort of like speakers vs. amp), so perhaps it should come first. On the other hand stylii wear out a lot quicker than TTs, so you get a chance to try something different.

[royphil345]

Thanks Feanor!!!

Good luck with your Technics.

Make a nice, permanent place for it... LOL Sounds like the vinyl bug might be biting you a bit... I know... I know... :)

[jrhymeammo]

Very nice. Sounds like you bought your last TT. Enjoy your music and all the wax that's waiting for you, my good man.

Peace,

JRA

[dean_martin]

Congrats! I'm considering the Technics myself. It appears to be one of those "buy it and be done with it" purchases that can get you off the audiophile merry-go-round.

QUESTIONS:
I've read that the Denon 103R is an updated version of the 103. Since both are available, what are the differences between the two? Would the newer 160 be a better choice than the older 103 (without the "R")? I also noticed in the TNT review that the reviewer used a plate on his 103 (without the "R") for extra weight and suggested that without the extra weight it might be a mismatch for the Technics's arm. Any comments or insight? I'm interested in the Denon carts as well, but would probably need to opt for the higher output 160 first due to my phono amp's limited gain.

[royphil345]

Thanks DM!!!

The only difference seems to be lower output on the 103R. A little more detail due to a lighter coil structure. I'm betting the regular 103 may be even better for rock, with more "slam" at the expense of a little frequency extension / detail. The 130R is sounding great to me though , for all types of music.

The reviewer put the extra weight on when he was using a table with a lighter arm to review the cartridge. I remember reading that one... He glued it and couldn't remove it. His concern seemed to be that without the spacer, the lowest setting of zero would be required for the VTA on the Technics table, leaving no "wiggle room" for adjustment. I've found that the VTA can be adjusted considerably below the zero mark. I've settled on a point slightly below zero for mine. The Technics comes with a weight / spacer you could use. I think it's steel though. I wouldn't probably ever use it.

I haven't heard a 110, 160, or the regular 103. I know JRA loves his 110. Think I've read that the 160 tracks slightly better, but many prefer the tonality of the 110. Sorry I can't be more help there... I think I'm sold on low-output now. There's a Denon MC step-up that's not too pricey if you decide to try that route... http://www.audiocubes2.com/product/Denon_AU-300LC_MC_Cartridge_Boosting_Trance.html

The "regular" 103 has been very well reviewed and is said by many to be unbeatable under $500.00 or more. Nothing to sneeze at...

[jrhymeammo]

Hey Dean, what's wrong with your Ortofon? Is it just that time again for a different sound? I think it's time I swapped all the tubes in my phono. MC section is pretty noisy..see I can do anything about it.

JRA

[dean_martin]

Thanks DM!!!

The only difference seems to be lower output on the 103R. A little more detail due to a lighter coil structure. I'm betting the regular 103 may be even better for rock, with more "slam" at the expense of a little frequency extension / detail. The 130R is sounding great to me though , for all types of music.

The reviewer put the extra weight on when he was using a table with a lighter arm to review the cartridge. I remember reading that one... He glued it and couldn't remove it. His concern seemed to be that without the spacer, the lowest setting of zero would be required for the VTA on the Technics table, leaving no "wiggle room" for adjustment. I've found that the VTA can be adjusted considerably below the zero mark. I've settled on a point slightly below zero for mine. The Technics comes with a weight / spacer you could use. I think it's steel though. I wouldn't probably ever use it.

I haven't heard a 110, 160, or the regular 103. I know JRA loves his 110. Think I've read that the 160 tracks slightly better, but many prefer the tonality of the 110. Sorry I can't be more help there... I think I'm sold on low-output now. There's a Denon MC step-up that's not too pricey if you decide to try that route... http://www.audiocubes2.com/product/Denon_AU-300LC_MC_Cartridge_Boosting_Trance.html

The "regular" 103 has been very well reviewed and is said by many to be unbeatable under $500.00 or more. Nothing to sneeze at...

Hey, thanks for the link to the Denon sut and the clarification on the extra weight/spacer.

[dean_martin]

Hey Dean, what's wrong with your Ortofon? Is it just that time again for a different sound? I think it's time I swapped all the tubes in my phono. MC section is pretty noisy..see I can do anything about it.

JRA

Hey JRA, nothing wrong with the Ortofon at this point. But it could be time to try a little different sound. My curiousity is always ahead of my funds. My turntable has been around for awhile and I've been considering either moving up the Pro-Ject line to the RM-5 or going for the Technics SL1200MkII. (Lucky me, I already have a Musician's Friend credit account and they offer free shipping. I really need more debt.) But I've read so much about the Technics/Denon combo that I can't get a Technics w/out trying a Denon cart.

Good luck w/the tube swapping. I'm getting used to some new EL34s in my integrated and trying to find the right compliment of 12AX7s.

I need to stay focused on my biggest need right now which is new speaker stands. Now that I have speakers with the midrange/woofer on top and the tweeter on bottom, I may need to replace my stands which have a slight tilt. The tilt pushes the tweeter forward of the midrange and may be the reason why my system seems a little bass shy at the moment. I'll do a little more experimenting with a level surface and see.

[jrhymeammo]

getting off of the subject.... have you tried Groove Tubes? I think I'll try out spme 12AX7 and 'AU7 after this year is over.

JRA

[royphil345]

Bigger power supply for the PP-2 turned out good. The difference is subtle. My thoughts before changing power supplies were that I liked the warmth over the slightly recessed mids of the Rotel, but the "thickness" was kind of obvious at times, making me wish for something with similar tone, but slightly more refined. The bigger power supply does seem to help imaging and detail hold up better during more difficult passages and make the warmth less obvious. Bass seems a little tighter too. Would definitely recommend the NAD PP-2 to others as a fantastic value. I've tried a few of the budget phono stages. This one seems to come closest to flat frequency response to my ear. Power supply upgrade highly recommended for better clarity.

... No fair... I want some toobs... LOL

[dean_martin]

getting off of the subject.... have you tried Groove Tubes? I think I'll try out spme 12AX7 and 'AU7 after this year is over.

JRA

I've tried an older Grooves Tube 12AX7 that came out of my old Fender guitar amp when I had it completely re-tubed. It was still good, but it didn't do well in my stereo system. You're probably referring to the more recent GT 12AX7M which is supposed to be a Mullard clone. I've read some good things about them, but I think there have been some interruptions in production that have made them hard to find at times. I'm also looking at the Sovtek 12AX7LPS which seem to be easier to find. The other preamp tube in my integrated is the 12AT7 so I haven't really looked into the AU7.

When you try the GTs, I'd appreciate your opinions on them and I'd like to know where you found them. In the meantime, enjoy your holidays. I'm trying to round up all my Christmas music.

[squeegy200]

When you try the GTs, I'd appreciate your opinions on them and I'd like to know where you found them. In the meantime, enjoy your holidays. I'm trying to round up all my Christmas music.

Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio likely has one of the most comprehensive inventories of tubes I've ever seen. He literally travels the world buying up old inventory of old stock vacuum tubes.

Once the tubes arrive in his warehouse, he burns them in, tests for reliability, and then assembles matched pairs. He's got some custom made racks which can prepare 30-40 tubes at a time. Then he's got the instrumentation on his workbench to measure performance and tolerances of each tube. It's quite an elaborate operation.

I bring up this subject because, you can call him. His knowledge of the different tube characteristics can help you tune your gear to your tastes. Do you want brighter top end? Quieter background, or larger sound stage? He can tell you which tubes will accomplish what you want in your equipment. When I was there for a recent club meeting, I saw a large box full of 12AU7s and their clone variants.

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/home.asp

[dean_martin]

Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio likely has one of the most comprehensive inventories of tubes I've ever seen. He literally travels the world buying up old inventory of old stock vacuum tubes.

Once the tubes arrive in his warehouse, he burns them in, tests for reliability, and then assembles matched pairs. He's got some custom made racks which can prepare 30-40 tubes at a time. Then he's got the instrumentation on his workbench to measure performance and tolerances of each tube. It's quite an elaborate operation.

I bring up this subject because, you can call him. His knowledge of the different tube characteristics can help you tune your gear to your tastes. Do you want brighter top end? Quieter background, or larger sound stage? He can tell you which tubes will accomplish what you want in your equipment. When I was there for a recent club meeting, I saw a large box full of 12AU7s and their clone variants.

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/home.asp

Yeah, I like that guy. I ordered my Pro-Ject turntable from him several years ago. He answered the phone himself. It must be cool to just drop by there (green w/envy). I used your link to check availability of the GT 12AX7M and upscale is out of stock right now as is most places. I'll definitely keep upscale in mind. Thanks.

[jrhymeammo]

Yes, I was referring to the Mullard copies.
Last time I checked, 12AX7M was on a back order, but they are taking orders. How about MusiciansFriends? They might have some.. only one way to find out.

JRA

Added:

Nope, they dont have them.. Found a place in Japan for 4179 yen per tube (~$35 @ 118/$). I hope I can pickup 3 of them and a DL-301Mk2($200).

[JoeE SP9]

Thanks DM!!!

The only difference seems to be lower output on the 103R. A little more detail due to a lighter coil structure. I'm betting the regular 103 may be even better for rock, with more "slam" at the expense of a little frequency extension / detail. The 130R is sounding great to me though , for all types of music.

The reviewer put the extra weight on when he was using a table with a lighter arm to review the cartridge. I remember reading that one... He glued it and couldn't remove it. His concern seemed to be that without the spacer, the lowest setting of zero would be required for the VTA on the Technics table, leaving no "wiggle room" for adjustment. I've found that the VTA can be adjusted considerably below the zero mark. I've settled on a point slightly below zero for mine. The Technics comes with a weight / spacer you could use. I think it's steel though. I wouldn't probably ever use it.

I haven't heard a 110, 160, or the regular 103. I know JRA loves his 110. Think I've read that the 160 tracks slightly better, but many prefer the tonality of the 110. Sorry I can't be more help there... I think I'm sold on low-output now. There's a Denon MC step-up that's not too pricey if you decide to try that route... http://www.audiocubes2.com/product/Denon_AU-300LC_MC_Cartridge_Boosting_Trance.html

The "regular" 103 has been very well reviewed and is said by many to be unbeatable under $500.00 or more. Nothing to sneeze at...

What you noticed about the 103R is the same with all low output MC cartridges. Less mass to move means more detail and extension.

[dean_martin]

Yes, I was referring to the Mullard copies.
Last time I checked, 12AX7M was on a back order, but they are taking orders. How about MusiciansFriends? They might have some.. only one way to find out.

JRA

Added:

Nope, they dont have them.. Found a place in Japan for 4179 yen per tube (~$35 @ 118/$). I hope I can pickup 3 of them and a DL-301Mk2($200).

JRA,

Please read this post by a tube seller at AA before going for the Groove Tubes. I bought some EL34s from this guy and he's well-respected. It's not good news.

http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=tubes&m=188228

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks DM,

havent bought any tubes here in Japan, but did manage to get a DL-301II last night for under $200 after staring at a Shelter 501mk2($500) for about 20 minutes. I think I can sell a 501 on Agon for $750. Anyone here want me to pick you up somem? LOL

Thanks again for the headsup,

JRa

[royphil345]

I see you made it to japan!!! Hope you enjoy your travels and have a safe trip home.

Congrats on the DL-301II. Nice deal!!! How can you go wrong with a Denon?... LOL I'm liking the 103R (and all my new stuff) more each day. Think I'm about done tweaking the settings on the Technics. It is sounding REALLY good. Almost CD-like accuracy with a little added warmth and the sweetness of vinyl. Think the bigger power supply for the PP-2 made quite a difference. I'm getting imaging and transparency I didn't think my system was capable of. I'm spinning so much vinyl, I better start worrying about saving up for my next 103R. I couldn't imagine replacing it with anything else (that I could afford anyway).

Have a good trip!!! Coming home won't be so bad with a new 301 II to try out!!!

[Mike Anderson]

Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio likely has one of the most comprehensive inventories of tubes I've ever seen. He literally travels the world buying up old inventory of old stock vacuum tubes.

Kevin is a great guy, I highly recommend dealing with him. I've made a couple big-money purchases from him now, and he did me right both times.

[jt1stcav]

I'm just glad to see Technics 'tables are still highly regarded by some golden-eared audiophiles and not poo-pooed as being just DJ 'tables that aren't worthy of using MCs and playing 180 gram pressings.

I know that ain't so 'cause I'm using my dad's mint '79 SL-1700MK2 and it's still a flawless performer! I did use my old Sumiko Blue Point (1st gen) high-output MC for a short time with it and was I ever impressed with my vinyl's sonics! It's worn and needs to be replaced, so I've gone back to my trusty TOTL '84 Stanton 981HZS pro calibrated MM with its D98S Stereohedron "longhair" stylus...still a great tracking MM after all these years!

My budget's extremely tight right now, so I'm still using a Music Hall mmf-phono pack MM/MC phono pre...hopefully someday I'll be able to replace it (I'd like to go all tube to keep in tune with my amp and preamp), but for now it'll do. My LPs still sound great with what I'm using right now, so I can live with that!:cornut:

Keep on enjoying your Technics/Denon combo.

[royphil345]

Me??? A golden-eared audiophile??? Naw... I simply can't afford anything in that class.

I've always had a love for the music and the gear though... I think after spending some time with the Technics / Denon combo, I can safely say you could not get better sound from vinyl for the same amount of money... or it would be real close...

I'm more than a little envious!!! The 1700 is automatic right? A used 1700 would have been my first choice, but it seems the auto mechinisms often need work and there are a few parts that tend to fail (after 25 years of service or so... LOL). Have also had most of the used turntables I've tried to buy damaged in shipping by idiots. Trying to get refunds is a pain...

Only upgrade I'm considering is changing the interconnects or purchasing the mod from KAB that lets you plug in different interconnects. I'm sure I won't get it done in any great hurry. The sound of the Technics / Denon combo is just not screaming for an upgrade of any kind.

Thanks for the kind words. Hope your Technics continues to bring you much enjoyment!!! Nice pic!!!

[jt1stcav]

Thanks for the compliment. Me and my SL-1700MK2 really appreciate it!

The SL-1700MK2 is semi-automatic (auto return only); the SL-1600MK2 of the same year was fully automatic, and the SL-1800MK2 was totally manual (with the mechanical cueing lever instead of the electrical cueing button). Other than that, all 3 'tables were exactly the same.

I too, have heard about auto mechanisms failing after time; even the auto return belts have been known to wear and break...before my dad retired the 'table in the mid '90s, the original return belt did break, and all he did was replace it with a rugged rubber band of equal size. Once I aquired his 'table a couple of years ago, the return mechanism's been working just fine with the rubber band still in place! Works for me.

I'd like to replace the '1700MK2s original patchcords as well with RCA jacks, but I refuse to take the chance and ship it to KAB just because I'm so paranoid about my own equipment being destroyed enroute, no matter how well I pack it. I'll eventually contact a local repair facility that might be able to do this work and I'll drive there and drop it off...I feel much safer delivering it in person than having a shipper drop it repeatedly inside his delivery truck before the repair shop gets ahold of it!

[royphil345]

Yeah... I wouldn't ship the table unless it was a last resort to get someting fixed. I was talking about installing the KAB jacks myself. That's a pretty easy mod... Since I'm using a low-output MC, it might be better to just replace the interconnects with something a little nicer. Less chance of picking up hum from additional unshielded connections and such... Less to go wrong...

As long as your rubber band keeps lifting the needle at the end of the record, I'm going to be a little jealous...LOL.