Box speakers with ribbon tweeters

[jrhymeammo]

Not that I'm interested in a new pair(would never be ideal with my tube integrated), but I'm kinda curious about how it works.

From my understanding(very, very little), ribbon-like speakers need much more space behind them. If that's is the case, then how do they manage to use them in box speakers? Do those speakers just have complexed internal cabinetry?

JRA

[Feanor]

Not that I'm interested in a new pair(would never be ideal with my tube integrated), but I'm kinda curious about how it works.

From my understanding(very, very little), ribbon-like speakers need much more space behind them. If that's is the case, then how do they manage to use them in box speakers? Do those speakers just have complexed internal cabinetry?

JRA

Inherently planars and ribbons are dipoler, that is, they radiate equally from front and back. Of course, the back and front are out of phase, one pushing while the other is pulling.

But in fact most small ribbons and planars are baffled so the rear wave is completely stiffled making them effectively monopolar. Consequently its easy to put them on the fromt of a box speaker. See a couple of such drivers (sold by Parts Express) ...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=264-735

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=276-402

[jrhymeammo]

sounds like a waste.... Without knowing anything, I would imaging placing ribbon tweeters on the top of cabinets would make more sense.

[emorphien]

sounds like a waste.... Without knowing anything, I would imaging placing ribbon tweeters on the top of cabinets would make more sense.
ie Martin Logan, etc.

[jrhymeammo]

but that's exactly not box speakers I have thinking of.
More like Elac VMPS and others without ...


But in fact most small ribbons and planars are baffled so the rear wave is completely stiffled making them effectively monopolar.

JRA

[Feanor]

but that's exactly not box speakers I have thinking of.
More like Elac VMPS and others without ...

JRA

But the VMPS and most of the ELAC line are baffled-behind in boxes.

Maybe you're thinking of something like the Bohlender-Graebener, below, which is diapole. Apogees use dipole ribbons I believe, although Florian might comment on that.
...

[Florian]

Well all Apogee speakers are dipole ;-) I own a VMPS 626 which uses a monopole ribbon as a tweeter. Its ok, but ribbons can sound very differentelty and are not the same. The best ribbons i know, are Apogee ribbons. Esp. when you use them Fullrange :)

[jrhymeammo]

I was thinking more like a bookshelf speakers with 3-4" dipole tweeter on the top. Instead of having buffled tweets in the front. I was just thinking with designs like that, speakers MAY benefit more of what ribbons can do.....

JRA

[Daedilus]

I dont know about bookshelf.. but what you are talking about sounds similar to Heil ESS AMT 1's....

These are excellent speakers, left a bit to be desired aestheticly but they sound great!

[JoeE SP9]

I was thinking more like a bookshelf speakers with 3-4" dipole tweeter on the top. Instead of having buffled tweets in the front. I was just thinking with designs like that, speakers MAY benefit more of what ribbons can do.....

JRA
Check out http://www.newformresearch.com They're not really bookshelfs but they are close to what you're describing. The Line Source Referrence looks interesting.:idea:

[JoeE SP9]

I dont know about bookshelf.. but what you are talking about sounds similar to Heil ESS AMT 1's....

These are excellent speakers, left a bit to be desired aestheticly but they sound great!

Those are nice. Heil tweeters always sound very good. Maybe someone will make them again. I'm sure the original patent has expired.

[E-Stat]

Heil tweeters always sound very good. Maybe someone will make them again. I'm sure the original patent has expired.
Dieter Burmester has, although he calls them something slightly different.

B100 (http://burmester.de/english/productlines/loudspeaker_b100_infos.html)

rw

[Feanor]

I was thinking more like a bookshelf speakers with 3-4" dipole tweeter on the top. Instead of having buffled tweets in the front. I was just thinking with designs like that, speakers MAY benefit more of what ribbons can do.....

JRA

Well aren't you the fussy one, eh?

The "baby" Martin Logan, see below, uses a Behringer-Graebener planar tweeter that is used dipole. Of course it isn't a book shelf speaker.

This ML users is the same BG driver for which I supplied the link earlier; it is possible to remove the rear baffle and user the tweeter dipole, which is what ML has done.

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/display_speaker/montage.html
...

[jrhymeammo]

How do you guys feel about monopole ribbon tweeters? Does it restrict what ribbons are capable of? Or wouldnt matter too much since they are just for high frequency?

Thanks for the link Joe. I've always thought they were interesting and no one ever talks about them here.

edit: Feanor, yes I am. Sorry about that, and thanks for the link. I've never seen that ML before. Of course I've never been curious about ML.

Daedilus: That looks pretty sweet. Maybe someone on this site should bid on that. pickup in SF only?
JRA

[Florian]

Mmmh, planar magnetics on a Martin Logan? now i lost all faith in ML :confused5:

[Feanor]

Check out http://www.newformresearch.com They're not really bookshelfs but they are close to what you're describing. The Line Source Referrence looks interesting.:idea:

The NewForm's are monopole.
:hand:

[topspeed]

Mebbe you're looking for something more like the Legacy Victoria's?

http://img.hi-fi.ru/news/2004-12/legacy_victoria.jpg

There are others that utilize small ribbon tweeters, not the least of which was Infinity with their "Emit" ribbon tweeters. It's not all that uncommon, although results certainly vary. Von Schweikert utilizes ribbon supertweeters on their custom line.

[jrhymeammo]

Thanks guys.
Yeah, there are alot of companies who make boxes with ribbon tweeters. Like Aurum Cantus and Coincident to add to the list.

So, basically like Legacy speakers with same sized ribbon tweeters but dipole on the very top of cabinets.

http://www.studio-fh.com/library/images/leisure3.jpg

[jrhymeammo]

My curiousity towards ribbons is growin, but most of them have 3ohm impedance and I can't go back to SS amps..

[emorphien]

My curiousity towards ribbons is growin, but most of them have 3ohm impedance and I can't go back to SS amps..
sissy

[jrhymeammo]

If I could get a pair of ASL Hurricane, and some sweet tube pre I would... But proably not even enough to drive Maggie 1.6. I think I would rather get a VPI Scout though. Sissy? You betcha!!!

[Florian]

There are plenty of tube amps even for below 1ohm Apogee (Scintilla and Active FR) speakers :-) All depends on the output transformers and the price :)

[jrhymeammo]

Flo, I got your price right here..(gripping my ballz):cornut:
What tube amps stay steady at lower than 2ohm?

Man, there is EAR 834 on A'gon right now for $1850. It's expensive, but not too bad. Dont think it'll do 2 steady ohms, but still....... A great Nottingham deck just got posted too... I need to somehow block that website permanently.

[emorphien]

finish school, then spend money.

[jrhymeammo]

finish school, then spend money.

I guess I can start looking after wednesday night then. I'm graduating Mo-fo!!! I decided not to get MBA.....I'll get a company to pay for that. J might be relocating to Chicago.... so probably shouldnt acquire anything yet.

JRA

[Florian]

Well lets see,

the Jadis Defy can be modded for 1ohm, the BAT VK60, Tube Research's, MalValve, VCEE and others :-)

Budget? ;-)

PS: Dont listen to Bull**** like "finish school before spending"...when i was in school i had my first Maggie 3.6 setup :)

[jrhymeammo]

PS: Dont listen to Bull**** like "finish school before spending"...when i was in school i had my first Maggie 3.6 setup :)

LOL. I think he just meant that once I get a better job, I would be able to acquire something better than I can afford at this moment.

Budget? Hmmmm... Less than 2K, but I'm happy with my current setup.

JRA

[Florian]

LOL. I think he just meant that once I get a better job, I would be able to acquire something better than I can afford at this moment.

Budget? Hmmmm... Less than 2K, but I'm happy with my current setup.

JRA

I never think in budgets, i have such a steel head that i wont take no for an answere and always find a way. LOL Even if it means taking advantage of morrons. LOL

I thought you where interested in an upgrade, but if not thats cool!

-Flo

[jrhymeammo]

I thought you where interested in an upgrade, but if not thats cool!

-Flo

My mind says NO!!! But my heart says yes yes.
I have this no name chinese tube integrated. I think it sounds excellent, but I'm sure I would benefit more from quality parts used. Of course I would never find out until I do A/B comparison. I'm totally pleased with it, but upgrading that would be the most logical step I can take.

JRA

[Dusty Chalk]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but just because they're in a frame like a dome tweeter, doesn't mean that the backs aren't open. I've seen some, and in some cases, the backs are open (come to think of it, I can't find one that isn't.

So it's just a matter of loading. You should probably load them with a (proportionately small) transmission line.

I mean, dome tweeters have the same problem. The diaphragm goes in and out, and from the other side, that still looks like in and out (or rather, out and in), so the air and sound still need someplace to go.

[jrhymeammo]

I mean, dome tweeters have the same problem. The diaphragm goes in and out, and from the other side, that still looks like in and out (or rather, out and in), so the air and sound still need someplace to go.

Yes, but I was under the impression that ribbons dispersed more sound to back than cones. That;s why I started this thread.

JRA

[E-Stat]

I've seen some, and in some cases, the backs are open (come to think of it, I can't find one that isn't.
The EMITs used in the Infinity IRS were sealed. They were bipolar only by virtue of mounting a dozen of them in the rear. The ribbons in the Nola Grand Reference are likewise sealed and only radiate forwards.

rw