HDDVD or BluRay [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

kexodusc

12-09-2006, 10:25 AM

Since storage is the only real advantage BluRay has, I don't see them winning a war. It's way too cheap and easy just to add another HD-DVD disc to a movie case make capacity a non-issue, how many 2 disc DVD's do you all own? HD-DVD is cheaper to manufacture, significantly lower in price at the consumer level, and isn't being run by Sony.
Sony doesn't have a great track record pushing formats to market, (Beta, MiniDisc, SACD, codecs, etc).
So I could see BluRay failing first, if I had to pick.

Stranger things have happened though, and copyright crap could influence this in the end. I'm going to wait until they're very inexpensive or until i finally fork up some cash for an XBox 360 or PS3 to dive in.

Carl Reid

12-09-2006, 11:13 AM

If I had to guess... I'd say Blue Ray is more likely to flop... As others have said HD DVD is not a huge jump from regular DVD... and there is some amount of backwards compatibility (or did I just dream that up?).... also Sony has a bad track record for pushing new formats.... and there is a lot of resentment towards Sony now, as a result of how they've pushed the PS3 (forcing Blue Ray and a ridiculously high price on Consumers who just want to play games)....

kelsci

12-09-2006, 11:54 AM

Well, let's see, I have walked into a few stores in the past few weeks. All I saw were Blue-Ray players hooked up from Pana., Samsung, and Pioneer. I understand Sony has about to or has their players in stores. That is 4 manufacturers of their own players. I have not seen one HD-DVD player hooked up at all. There is only one manufacturer of HD-DVD out there, Toshiba, who is making a machine for RCA. I would like to see other manufacturers making HD-DVD units.

I do not like the onslaught of all manufacturers machines not being to output through the analog outputs the HD audio codecs that are now appearing on some discs. That should have been in all machines from day one. The same goes for the 1080P video thingy as well.

Toshiba's 2nd generation player that "does it all" is going to be a grand making it as expensive as Blue-Ray.

Some recent Blue-Ray discs are being released with the avc video codec. It will be interesting to see what the result will be if certain companies release discs in both formats using the same codec and reviewers and testers check results in comparison to both formats.

I think that either format could win at this time. The fact that Blue-Ray has multi-manufacturers and BD discs are starting to come out with the better video codecs could tilt the odds in their favor.

Jack in Wilmington

12-09-2006, 12:12 PM

Aren't the second generation Toshiba's equiped with the HDMI 1.3 cable capability? And if the uncompressed Dolby and DTS is as good as I've heard it is, that should be a huge selling point.

drseid

12-09-2006, 01:04 PM

I own both an feel it is likely both will ultimately survive... That said, if one does die, I would wager it is Blu-ray at this point. Toshiba may be alone on the manufacturer side, but that will change in time. I would say that HD DVD is here to stay... Blu-ray may also if it gets better and less expensive.

---Dave

N. Abstentia

12-09-2006, 01:09 PM

I say Blu-Ray has flop written all over it, just look at the PS3 disaster.

drseid

12-09-2006, 01:13 PM

Blue Ray is not better than HD DVD right now. Blue Ray is 25G disk not 50G yet. Their is now way they will be at 50G disks any time soon. HD DVD on the other hand is a workable 30G and its clarity is unreal, i have seen both and i am more immpressed with HD DVD.

Actually there are a couple BD50 discs out there now (Kingdom of Heaven for example). That said, BD50 discs most likely will never be commonly used. I agree that the storage advantage is pretty much a myth, as HD DVDs almost all use HD DVD30 dual layer discs and most BDs are BD25s. I also prefer the look of HD DVD.

---Dave

spf

12-13-2006, 07:42 AM

I think the true test will be when the early adopters have made their choice and then the choice moves down to the everyday Joe consumer (which just happens to make up 90+% of the population.) The real important points that made DVDs work so well was 1) No more rewinding , 2) Players could also play CDs, and 3) Menus, menus, glorious menus!

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD have only High Definition in their corner to try and convince the masses to adopt a very similar format that offers very few advantages over DVDs. If they had worked together and introduced one format, the chances would have been better but I worry that both will go the way of the LaserDisc.

Shane

GMichael

12-13-2006, 08:08 AM

Although, I like the sound of the name "Blue-Ray", I think it will crash and burn. As others have said, HD-DVD has DVD it the name. People will catch on to this faster. Don't underestimate how simple the general public is. Most do not look below the surface. Blue-Ray sounds like you need a whole new ststem to make it work (with their Bose). HD-DVD sounds like, "plug me in and I work."
Just my take on it.

musicman1999

12-13-2006, 08:15 AM

I think that SPF has it right,if things continue as they are,i fear that neither product will ever be more than a speciality product.If either is to survive,one has to go.People find it too confusing having more than one format to pick from.The average guy has no reason to upgrade,he may have a smaller television,no surround system to take advantage of the new audio formats,or no place to rent movies from.All reasons to stay with a format that works just fine for them.

bill

edtyct

12-13-2006, 09:31 AM

spf

12-14-2006, 05:07 AM

Yeah, but the laserdisc lasted ten years, and the relatively small public who bought into it were avid for it. I agree with the average-guy argument to a point, but if dire predictions were this easy to make, both formats would be gone by now. I'm really enjoying my hi def player for now; nothing lasts forever. By the way, Netflix is a good source for HD DVD and Blu-ray films if the local Blockbuster is a local block bust. (My longer "dissenting" argument appears at the end of a long post after a question about DVD formats.)

I think your last comment is a good point, edtyct . If the over-the-mail renting retailers get a good customer base then one or even both of the formats could pull through and become mainsteam. The laserdisc argument is especially sad because it had a very rabid group of followers (I was a late adopter but still there), it used a full AC-3 surround sound codec and had great resolution for its time. Its main drawbacks were size, flipping the disc halfway through a movie (I did have one of those neat players that read both sides) and very poor studio support.

My personal prediction for the mainstream future format will be a digital HD file available on numerous servers in a sort of torrent type setup where you could download a 30GB movie in around 8 hours. (Of course, bandwidth will have to increase to make that kind of jump but technology is always moving :o)) Cheers!

Shane

L.J.

12-14-2006, 08:23 AM

I like the fact that some HD-DVD sets also includes a DVD version of the film as well (Superman Returns HD-DVD/DVD combo for example). I'm not sure if BR is doing the same. Anybody know?

Anyways, it is becoming very tempting to pick up a few titles since I know both formats will find their way into my home eventually. A BR player would be out of the question unless prices dropped, but a PS3 is doable simply because I will be using it for games as well. Same with an Xbox 360. Hey, if I'm gonna dive in, why not do it through gaming systems?

I've owned an HDTV (2 now) for a few years now and would like to make more use of it. My TV veiwing is almost strictly HD but sometimes flipping through those same 20 channels can get old. I'm not too concerned about who wins what anymore I just want to enjoy some HD. It's getting boring and cold out here on this fence. GM, pass me another beer please.

drseid

12-14-2006, 09:13 AM

I like the fact that some HD-DVD sets also includes a DVD version of the film as well (Superman Returns HD-DVD/DVD combo for example). I'm not sure if BR is doing the same. Anybody know?

Nope... Only HD DVD is doing combo discs. I actually don't like those much, as they cost more as a general rule... but it looks like maybe there is a market for them after all.

---Dave

GMichael

12-14-2006, 09:20 AM

It's getting boring and cold out here on this fence. GM, pass me another beer please.

Trade you a 6-pack for one of those pillows. I think I got a splinter.

L.J.

12-14-2006, 09:39 AM

Nope... Only HD DVD is doing combo discs. I actually don't like those much, as they cost more as a general rule... but it looks like maybe there is a market for them after all.

---Dave

I didn't know they were more $$. I really haven't been tracking any prices. I do like the idea of enjoying the DVD version, since I don't own a HD player yet, while having the HD version for later. Although I can get DVD's for dirt cheap, I don't like the idea of buying DVD titles that I may want on HD one day.

edtyct

12-14-2006, 10:50 AM

I think your last comment is a good point, edtyct . If the over-the-mail renting retailers get a good customer base then one or even both of the formats could pull through and become mainsteam. The laserdisc argument is especially sad because it had a very rabid group of followers (I was a late adopter but still there), it used a full AC-3 surround sound codec and had great resolution for its time. Its main drawbacks were size, flipping the disc halfway through a movie (I did have one of those neat players that read both sides) and very poor studio support.

My personal prediction for the mainstream future format will be a digital HD file available on numerous servers in a sort of torrent type setup where you could download a 30GB movie in around 8 hours. (Of course, bandwidth will have to increase to make that kind of jump but technology is always moving :o)) Cheers!

Shane

Shane,

The wonderful thing about LD was that it turned out to be a medium almost exclusively for enthusiasts and professionals. Criterion singlehandedly invented the extra content that everyone now takes for granted. The 2001 and Bladerunner LDs set the standard. I don't ever remember not being able to get a film that I wanted (avoiding those that I didn't want was more of a problem). The CAV disks were the ones that needed to be flipped every half hour, but the tradeoff was that they looked marginally bettter than the typical longer-playing CLV disks. I wouldn't have traded my CAVs for the convenience of longer playing. If you recall, some of the earlier DVDs had to be flipped or changed as well--"Michael Collins" being one that springs immediately to mind.

An interesting question is whether the new hi def formats could exist solely as an enthusiasts' medium. They undoubtedly will for a while because of the nature of the business. But in the long run, I'm not so sure, since what made LD so valuable to film buffs was not just video quality (though that was considerable) but also the extra features (as well as--I have to admit--the cachet). But bonus material is no longer an exceptional selling point. Can superior video/audio alone sustain hi def disks while the large majority of people remain with standard DVD? Sooner or later, all viewing will be in what we now call hi def, and it, in turn, will be supplanted by something else. Delivery of all content via fiberoptic cable or otherwise is certainly in the cards, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Studio, broadcast, and theater lobbies will have something to say about it, not to mention the issue of foolproof copy protection. Meanwhile, in a complex economy with its own inertia and a restless digital age that refuses to sit still, you find your satisfaction wherever and however you can. It should be a wild ride. I'm going to take advantage of what's available now.

Ed

Rock789

01-05-2007, 09:42 AM

check this out guys...

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/hddvdblurayononedisc/4248

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/lgwillintroducedualhdformatplayer/4250

perhaps both will still survive?

Woochifer

01-05-2007, 02:44 PM

I think this question is premature right now, and by this time next year, will probably be irrelevant.

At CES next week, Warner (which supports both formats and is one of the patent holders for the DVD format) is supposed to announce a dual-format disc that will incorporate BOTH formats onto one disc. Meanwhile, both Samsung and LG have been developing dual format transports that will work both types of disc media. The transport's the only missing piece of the puzzle before universal players that play both HD-DVD and Blu-ray discs can start coming out. The chipsets used in the HD-DVD and Blu-ray players can already decode for BOTH formats, and are interchangeable for both types of players.

With all of the behind-the-scenes development momentum right now aimed towards dual-format players and discs, the question of which format will flop then goes by the wayside. In the long run, I think Blu-ray will eventually win out because they have more studio support (Universal's the only studio that supports HD-DVD exclusively), and the disc media has larger capacity (in theory) which allows for more flexibility and higher datarates on the authoring side.

Frankly, I'm surprised at how many people on this board think that Blu-ray will flop first considering that most of the first generation Blu-ray players have barely hit the market, and the studios supporting Blu-ray have only begun ramping up their releases. Add the prospect of dual-format disc players on the horizon, and I don't see how anyone can pick Blu-ray to flop without also saying the same thing about HD-DVD.

GMichael

01-05-2007, 02:49 PM

Will any of the HD players also play std DVD's as well? Or will we all need to have both to play our collections?

kelsci

01-05-2007, 03:00 PM

right now they handle standard dvds and upconvert the std dvds as well. why should not a combi player not do the same?

ericl

01-05-2007, 03:14 PM

Coin flip, really.
agree

musicman1999

01-05-2007, 03:47 PM

I don't think dual format players are a good idea at all.This war will be decided by the studios and movie rental companies,it is in all of their best interests for their to be only one high def dvd format.Even with multi players,studios will only want to produce one format,and the fewer formats a rental store needs to stock the better for them.Universal players did not save the high rez audio formats and there is no reason to think they would be any more successful with video.

bill

Woochifer

01-05-2007, 07:08 PM

I didn't know they were more $$. I really haven't been tracking any prices. I do like the idea of enjoying the DVD version, since I don't own a HD player yet, while having the HD version for later. Although I can get DVD's for dirt cheap, I don't like the idea of buying DVD titles that I may want on HD one day.

I remember those combo packs costing about $5-$10 more. Not a bad premium if you're pretty sure that you intend to get a HD-DVD player in the next few months.

I don't think dual format players are a good idea at all.This war will be decided by the studios and movie rental companies,it is in all of their best interests for their to be only one high def dvd format.Even with multi players,studios will only want to produce one format,and the fewer formats a rental store needs to stock the better for them.Universal players did not save the high rez audio formats and there is no reason to think they would be any more successful with video.

Unfortunately, I think we're long past the time for compromises. The hardware's already on the market, titles have been announced, and both camps have further entrenched their positions. Either one format will win out in the market, or these technical band-aids like dual-format players and discs will render the format war moot.

The situation with the high res audio formats was very different. The movie studios are a lot more committed to concurrent releases than the record companies ever were, and the emergence of HDMI bypasses a lot of the inane copy protection restrictions that hampered SACD and DVD-A.

Rock789

01-05-2007, 10:42 PM

Will any of the HD players also play std DVD's as well? Or will we all need to have both to play our collections?
both format players are susposed to be able to play old dvd's

Rock789

01-05-2007, 10:45 PM

The situation with the high res audio formats was very different. The movie studios are a lot more committed to concurrent releases than the record companies ever were, and the emergence of HDMI bypasses a lot of the inane copy protection restrictions that hampered SACD and DVD-A.
I was under the impression a lot of new albums are being released in SACD with the normal CD layer...

drseid

01-06-2007, 04:03 AM

Will any of the HD players also play std DVD's as well? Or will we all need to have both to play our collections?

*All* of them do. :-)

That said, both my Toshiba HD A1 HD DVD player and my new Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray player both have had many problems playing regular DVD discs without any glitches. Quite frankly I may place my Denon 1600 back in my main system for DVD playing use as I am disatisfied with both for DVD use.

Oh yeah, the Sony and Pioneer Blu-ray units don't play CDs or VCDs.

---Dave

edtyct

01-06-2007, 05:43 AM

Dave,

What's your Toshiba doing wrong with standard disks?

Ed

GMichael

01-06-2007, 06:45 AM

Both? You have both Blueray and HD-DVD?

HMPFTH....

L.J.

01-06-2007, 08:51 AM

Both? You have both Blueray and HD-DVD?

HMPFTH....

Sometimes you gotta just dive in head first :ihih:

GMichael

01-06-2007, 01:49 PM

Sometimes you gotta just dive in head first :ihih:

True, but into both pools?

Woochifer

01-06-2007, 02:40 PM

I was under the impression a lot of new albums are being released in SACD with the normal CD layer...

Nope. The lack of concurrent releases and the major labels failing to embrace the SACD/CD hybrid format for new releases have pretty much relegated the high res audio formats to niche status. DVD-A for a while did have some concurrent new releases, but nowadays the major labels are marketing them strictly as "bonus DVD" packs (e.g., the new Beatles Love remix was concurrently released in two versions).

Rock789

01-06-2007, 07:28 PM

Nope. The lack of concurrent releases and the major labels failing to embrace the SACD/CD hybrid format for new releases have pretty much relegated the high res audio formats to niche status. DVD-A for a while did have some concurrent new releases, but nowadays the major labels are marketing them strictly as "bonus DVD" packs (e.g., the new Beatles Love remix was concurrently released in two versions).
well that does suck

drseid

01-07-2007, 03:49 AM

Dave,

What's your Toshiba doing wrong with standard disks?

Ed

Same as my Sony... it has glitches that cause many standard DVDs (most often with older discs from minor manufacturers) to freeze briefly once or twice during playback (and not due to layer change). This has gotten better with firmware 2.0, but it is far from eliminated -- my Sony is equally bad, but adds a freeze due to layer change as well to the mix.

---Dave

drseid

01-07-2007, 03:53 AM

True, but into both pools?

True very expensive, but it allows me to play all available movies (as HD DVD and Blu-ray each have some studios that only support their respective formats).

---Dave

Feanor

01-07-2007, 04:29 AM

Which one do you think is going to flop?

Opps! I think I got your question reversed and voted 'Neither'.

Doesn't really matter from my perspective. I'm not a big video guy and I don't even own a TV that will take full advantage of DVD, (what's that? 480p?), let alone one of these hi-rez formats. My wife who love a big screen HDTV, but I ain't going to happen -- not a least 'till she gets her's out and gets job or my son starts paying back his college loans.

I think both will survive for a while, then perhaps be superceded by something(s) newer and better -- can't imagine what, admittedly. For me it's like Laserdisc: it came and went without any relevance to me. :Yawn:

I'm a bit more interested, on the audio side, with the survival of SACD. Oh, yes, I know the majority of people here at AR consider this a flop. But I say not (yet, anyway). Problem here is the musical taste of most participants -- I don't mean good or bad, just not classical music. :nonod: SACD is alive and well in that genre though it is likely to remain a niche product and I'm fine with that.

Palmz

01-10-2007, 05:04 PM

bobsticks

01-10-2007, 05:24 PM

I'm a bit more interested, on the audio side, with the survival of SACD. Oh, yes, I know the majority of people here at AR consider this a flop. But I say not (yet, anyway). Problem here is the musical taste of most participants -- I don't mean good or bad, just not classical music. :nonod: SACD is alive and well in that genre though it is likely to remain a niche product and I'm fine with that.

Cheers to that!

edtyct

01-10-2007, 05:46 PM

I just bought a High-def (1080i) Sony Camcorder to find out that it only encodes in Blu-ray format. That is so Sony to force it's customers to buy their other products. I personally hope that Blu-Ray dies out and HD DVD takes over. Sony uses too many vices for today's educated consumer in my opinion, they tried to do this with BETA and good-will won over.

Die Blu-Ray.

For one thing, you didn't do your homework. You can't blame Sony for that. You also can't blame Sony for trying to build a consumer base. Do you think that Toshiba is going to manufacture products compatible with Blu-ray? Not on your life. Both sides want loyal customers. They may co-exist for the foreseeable future, but why would each side want to give the other one a leg up? Meanwhile, they are both at risk for low sales. But if they're willing to take that risk, how can you complain? If you hate Sony for being in the business of pushing Blu-ray, do your homework and don't buy products that depend on it.

Woochifer

01-10-2007, 05:54 PM

I just bought a High-def (1080i) Sony Camcorder to find out that it only encodes in Blu-ray format. That is so Sony to force it's customers to buy their other products. I personally hope that Blu-Ray dies out and HD DVD takes over. Sony uses too many vices for today's educated consumer in my opinion, they tried to do this with BETA and good-will won over.

Die Blu-Ray.

What model would that be? I checked online and couldn't find any Sony camcorder that encodes for Blu-ray. The only model I found that records to a removable disc in HD resolution uses DVD media, and can record in SD resolution if backwards compatibility with other players is an issue. And you don't need to buy any additional devices to play back on your HDTV. If you're looking for HD resolution and removable disc media, what other options are out there right now that you would rather see consumers purchase?

If you found out about limitations in the output capability only after you purchased the unit, whose fault is that?

Don't like how Sony designed the device, and want to support HD-DVD? Just return your camcorder and buy a HD-DVD player.

Palmz

01-10-2007, 09:23 PM

For one thing, you didn't do your homework. You can't blame Sony for that. You also can't blame Sony for trying to build a consumer base. Do you think that Toshiba is going to manufacture products compatible with Blu-ray? Not on your life. Both sides want loyal customers. They may co-exist for the foreseeable future, but why would each side want to give the other one a leg up? Meanwhile, they are both at risk for low sales. But if they're willing to take that risk, how can you complain? If you hate Sony for being in the business of pushing Blu-ray, do your homework and don't buy products that depend on it.

Agreed, and I am taking the camera back for a Canon HD camcorder that looks to be nearly as good. I just don't like the idea of having to upgrade not only my Home theater hardware, but my computer and software codecs as well. I haven't finalized this but knowing that I could take it back any time within 30 days, I plunged on the camera because of the insane boxing day sales here in Canada. Sometimes to get the best price, research has to come later, but never at the expense of a buyers remorse you can't escape.

I think it is true, however, that Sony has taken more agressive and drastic measures throughout history at pushing their products. Of course business is business and we live, for the most part, in a free-enterprise (now) world economy, and I can't fault Sony for any effort they make to build clientelle (even by obligation), however a backfire on a company so driven by profit motive is always bitter-sweet to me. If I remember correctly, the BETA/VHS war was won because Philips (if I'm remembering correctly) didn't demand exclusivity the way Sony did. I appreciate efforts to not only make a profit, but further advance technology for the human race. I think VHS was a just win in that regard.

Palmz

01-10-2007, 09:49 PM

What model would that be? I checked online and couldn't find any Sony camcorder that encodes for Blu-ray. The only model I found that records to a removable disc in HD resolution uses DVD media, and can record in SD resolution if backwards compatibility with other players is an issue. And you don't need to buy any additional devices to play back on your HDTV. If you're looking for HD resolution and removable disc media, what other options are out there right now that you would rather see consumers purchase?

If you found out about limitations in the output capability only after you purchased the unit, whose fault is that?

Don't like how Sony designed the device, and want to support HD-DVD? Just return your camcorder and buy a HD-DVD player.

I'm glad I entered this thread because it's caused me to actually do some research (would have done before my return-deadline on the 26th). The camcorder is the HDRSR1 AVCHD. It's a 30GB hard disk camcorder. After the purchase I heard the bad news from a friend of mine who considered the same one. From the website it looks as though the device actually will record in standard definition (480p) for playback on computer/dvd. But it's only High-def format is Blu-ray. This isn't quite as sinister as I thought. The way it was described to me I thought you could only record in High-def Blu-ray, with no standard-def option, thus forcing the customer to buy hundreds of dollars of new equipment. I still may exchange for the Canon counterpart. We'll see.

Dusty Chalk

01-11-2007, 01:56 AM

I think I'm going to wait until I don't have to decide: LG Electronics announced a player that'd play both at CES. It shouldn't be long before other manufacturers (Pioneer, Oppo) follow suit.

Rock789

01-11-2007, 05:49 AM

I think I'm going to wait until I don't have to decide: LG Electronics announced a player that'd play both at CES. It shouldn't be long before other manufacturers (Pioneer, Oppo) follow suit.
me too

forzapaolo

01-11-2007, 06:47 AM

b-ray will survive no matter which one succeeds people will need to change and don't give me people will hessitate to change as people will change eventually.

edtyct

01-11-2007, 06:58 AM

I certainly see your point, and I have no desire to defend Sony or any other company for its business practices (I couldn't be less corporate in my personal views), and discussing economics on an A/V board is as indecorous as disscussing religion and politics. But you would be hard-pressed to find a company that didn't define its self-interest as maximum profit. Sometimes their decisions work, and sometimes they don't--for them or for us. The bottom line so far as home theater is concerned, however, is that we wouldn't have any game at all if they didn't act on these motivations. Also, don't forget that Sony and Philips teamed up to give us the CD and that a lot of other companies are in the Blu-ray camp with Sony. As I said in another post, I've noticed at least one Blu-ray player features a part manufactured by Toshiba.

drseid

01-12-2007, 02:27 AM

I think I'm going to wait until I don't have to decide: LG Electronics announced a player that'd play both at CES. It shouldn't be long before other manufacturers (Pioneer, Oppo) follow suit.

It looks like the LG may have run into a snag... I believe I read on AVS Forum that the HD DVD camp is not allowing it to use some of its interactive extra features functionality. As such, I believe I read that the player may not be able to actually claim it is HD DVD certified. I do believe it can play the HD DVD movies, however. I guess we will see what February brings... Personally I hope it does work completely.

---Dave