Will power improve sound? [Archive]

JNorth1178

11-30-2006, 05:37 PM

jrhymeammo

11-30-2006, 05:55 PM

Hey Northy, What are your listening habits? Speakers, IC, wires, CDP/Turntables are you using? Your room size? What do you think is lacking from RB1050?

I say this because getting more power might not be the best way for you to improve your SQuality.

Raj,

Dusty Chalk

11-30-2006, 07:42 PM

At the present time i have a Rotel entry model RB 1050 Amp and a Rotel RC 1070 pre amp. I am pleased with the sound but am considering going to a RB 1090. Questions: L. would this improve the over all sound of my system? It depends on the speakers -- if your speakers are power hungry current suckers like mine, then yes, it will improve the sound. If you're already well within the headroom of the amp, then no, it should sound about the same.
2.Would my pre am limit the benefit of a larger amp ? This one is easier: no, shouldn't.

emorphien

11-30-2006, 07:58 PM

Without knowing what else you have we can only be of limited help. Improving your speakers (if they're lacking) could be a better way to go.

Carl Reid

11-30-2006, 08:31 PM

Unless you're speakers are really current hungry bastards, I think you might be going for serious overkill...

You want to move from a 70 Watt per channel RB1050 to a 380 Watt per channel RB 1090? That sounds pretty intense...

If you are happy with the way your system sounds and the speakers aren't seriously inefficient I'd suggest sticking with the 1050....

Oh, I'm sure your pre-amp can handle the 1090... the 1070 pre was designed to match any of Rotel's two channel power amps.... I have a 1070 paired with an RB 1080 (200 watts per channel)...

JNorth1178

11-30-2006, 08:52 PM

Sorry, I should have elaborated. My speakers are B&W 805s. The room aize ia amall, a study, 12X15. I liaten mostly to classical. I feel that my -present setup doesn't have a large enough soundstage. That is, not enough body or depth to the music. It's sure hard to describe a 'feeling' isn't it? JNorth1178

jrhymeammo

11-30-2006, 09:03 PM

I used to own a pair of B&W very similar to yours. You will benefit more by feeding more power, but 1090 sounds like an overkill. Where do you have your speakers placed? How close are they togehter, from the walls. I'm not sure if I'll spend over $2000 for a Rotel amp.

Carl Reid

11-30-2006, 09:41 PM

For the 805s I doubt that you need over 200 watts... so you could probably either 1) spend half the price you would have spent on the RB 1090 and just get a 1080 (200 watts) or 2) Spend the same amount of money (you would have spent on the 1090) and get a better 150 - 200Watts amp.... I really like Rotel's equipment but as the previous poster said... I don't know if I would spend over 2k on a Rotel amp....

jrhymeammo

11-30-2006, 10:06 PM

Just to ask a basic question. Does it play loud enough with dynamics?

spasticteapot

11-30-2006, 10:11 PM

I'm one of those "super high efficiency" wackos.

Say what you will - ten watts is all I need.

jrhymeammo

11-30-2006, 10:17 PM

kexodusc

12-01-2006, 04:41 AM

I didn't even know Rotel made a $2000 amp. Crap. That's more than my RA-1070 100 watter...which is a beefy amp in itself. How as the fellas mentioned, if you aren't straining your current amplifier then I doubt more power is going to improve things. If you've got $2K burning a hole in your pocket, I'd suggest looking at room treatments if you haven't already. That is likely to make more significant, audible difference to your system than upgrading any piece of electronics. And it could be done for a lot less than $2K.

JNorth1178

12-01-2006, 05:25 AM

Thanks guys! As far as other equipment is concerned: Rotel RT-02 CD, Rotel RCD 1072 Tuner, and a Veodyne DPS-16 Sub.. The speakers are 8' a part and 2' from the wall. Carl mentioned getting a better 150 - 200 amp. What do you suggest?. I am relatively new at this (as you can see) As for room treatment, I am limited in what I can do. Room is crowded. JNorth1178

Rock789

12-01-2006, 09:22 AM

Anthem MCA 20 (http://www.anthemav.com/NewSitev2.0/AnthemProduct/MCASeries/MCASeriesHome.html)

B&K Rev 200.2 (http://www.bkcomp.com/ref200.asp) -- Review (http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/amplifiers/PRD_328883_1583crx.aspx)

accastil

12-01-2006, 09:49 AM

At the present time i have a Rotel entry model RB 1050 Amp and a Rotel RC 1070 pre amp. I am pleased with the sound but am considering going to a RB 1090. Questions: L. would this improve the over all sound of my system? 2.Would my pre am limit the benefit of a larger amp ? Thanks for any help you can give. JNorth1178
jnorth, try looking at your speakers recommended amplifier range. im sure the 1090 is well beyond it. i think a 150 or 200W would be just enough to maximize your speakers full potential.

likeitloud

12-02-2006, 07:50 PM

Using large vintage speakers as I do, adding more power, alot more in my case, really
opened up the soundstage, and improved at low volumes, the bottom end is the
biggest change. It made the speakers come alive. I went from a 110wpc amp, to one
over 300wpc after mods. It cost under $1100 after it was all said and done, and
really works well. More power...Go for it.:ihih:

Carl Reid

12-02-2006, 09:53 PM

Since U like the Rotel/B&W combination.... you might want to check out Classe... I think the most popular amps for use with B&W are Rotel and Classe (because the same company owns all three and hence creates, tests and sells the products together).... I don't think you can get a new 150 - 200W Classe amp for $2K, but you should be able to find a used one for that price....

So it's definitely worth checking out....

Grandpaw

12-03-2006, 07:28 AM

What CDP/TT are you using?

But it might just make a dramitic improvement if you'll pull your speakers out at least 3 ft from your rear wall. It would really help you if we knew all of your equipment list too.

I would second this suggestion about getting your speakers farther away from the walls. I may be shot down on this statement but In my opinion unless you can get the speakers farther away from the wall you will not get the optimum sound no mater what equipment is used. In the different systems I have listened too ALL had their sound stages get wider and deeper with more definition as to where the instruments were during the recording by getting more space around the speaker. Big difference and no cost.

You said you are limited as to space so this may not be possible. If it is not possible to move the speakers out I would question if spending money on new equipment with this setup would be of much benefit.

There are a lot of people on this forum with more knowledge and experience than I have but I can say without a doubt getting the speakers away from the wall is very important to the sound stage, Jeff

This is a big exaggeration to make a point, but if you take a fine system and set it up in a closet without having a proper space the equipment will never sound it's best.

bobsticks

12-03-2006, 08:27 AM

Lotta good observations and advice. As far as a personal anecdote, the first day I brought home the MLs I tried to run them through just a receiver as an experiment. This lasted less than an hour. Running the signal bridged through my Rotel 1066 gave me better sounding everything overall, including sounstage and presence. Of course, I have some pretty power hungry speakers.

All that said, at the end of the day, while I'm sure more power would be benificial (and I am going along with the happy medium crowd recommending a solid 150-200 watts) you'll gain much,much more by ensuring that you have proper speaker placement.

jrhymeammo

12-03-2006, 09:43 AM

12' X 15' room is probably a good size for your 805s. But all depends on how much furnitures/items you have in that room.

I'm wondering if you just have alot of furniture between you and speakers. You said your system is in your study. So, I'm also wondering if you are sitting behind some big desk facing your speakers.
You said your room is crowded so that might be a part of your problem. As for room treatment, if you have bookeshelves filled with books that'll work pretty nicely.

JRA

hermanv

12-03-2006, 01:42 PM

If you are prepared to spend $2,000 for a Rotel amp, I personally think you can do far better with a used amp (example a Bryston 4BSST). How do you feel about used?

I paid $2,300 for my used Pass Labs X250 which will put 500 watts into 4 Ohms, I've never heard the Rotel RB1050, but my guess would be that the Pass or Bryston and several other well known audiophile brands in that price range (used) would shame it.

By the way 70 Watts to 350 watts is only a 7dB increase, contrary to an earlier post that isn't really a lot. (10 x log(base10) of 350/70 = ~7).

JNorth1178

12-03-2006, 09:14 PM

I have bveen considering 'used' vs. 'new'. Where do you place Bryston, Parasound, and Anthem in the list of amps to be considered. Ouer local dealer handles the Parasound. I would hope to get a used amp, -perhaps one of these three makes. I am not too knowledgeable and am open to recommendations. thanks for your res-ponse JNorth1178

hermanv

12-04-2006, 10:59 AM

Parasound is a tough call, they make a broader product line than some other vendors, their Halo amps get good reviews, but they ain't cheap. Similar things can be said about Adcom, their sound quality rating seems to vary from model to model and occasionally from year to year.

The reviewers do usually praise Anthem, but as far as I know most of the Anthem line is on the lower power side of what you indicated you wanted. Perhaps I'm not up to date here.

Several things about Bryston; that 20 year transferrable warranty, long history of good reviews, pretty much bullet proof (since they are a very popular "pro" amplifier), high availablity used and a very nice (prompt and reasonable cost) company to work with for repair or upgrades.

Gear I have owned that I can recommend as "non fatiguing" is Conrad Johson, Levinson and Pass Labs, my friend owns Bryston (Ditto on non-fatiguing). I never liked my Denon stuff, but not everyone agrees. Most vacuum tube gear is suposed to be quite good, but at your power level mostly out of financial reach. Not everyone enjoys tubes hassle, some delight in it.

eCoustic.com has the most extensive list of magazine reviews I've seen.
http://search.ecoustics.com/Editorial/Reviews/Amplifier/Alpha-Name/All/
You are talking about spending what for most folks is real money, some effort is indicated. If you live in a big city, you can often find used gear within driving distance, go listen.

Rock789

12-04-2006, 12:13 PM

http://www.anthemav.com/NewSitev2.0/AnthemProduct/MCASeries/MCASpecs/MCASeriesSpecs.html
if the 200watt area is where you want to be...

jrhymeammo

12-04-2006, 10:06 PM

You can get some high powered tube integrated for around $3000. How do you feel about selling your Rotels?

JNorth1178

12-05-2006, 10:16 AM

Re: Selling my Rotels. It depends on what I end up buying. A. If I go intgegrated then I willl want to sell both the pre and the amp. B. If I go toupgraded amp then I will keep my preamp and sell my Rotel amp. JNorth1178

JNorth1178

12-09-2006, 05:54 AM

For bvetter or worse I ordered an Anthem MCA 2. It should be here by the end of the week. I hopoe I made the right choice. Want to thank all of you for your valuable input. JNorth 1178

JNorth1178

12-10-2006, 05:21 AM

A mention was made of "Amp Range" of the speakers. What is that? and where do I look to find it? JNorth1178

Rock789

12-10-2006, 10:45 AM

A mention was made of "Amp Range" of the speakers. What is that? and where do I look to find it? JNorth1178

I believe the amp's frequency response is what was being discussed...
the Anthem MCA 20 is: 20 Hz - 20 kHz (-0.15 db); 5 Hz - 100 kHz (-2 db)
http://www.anthemav.com/NewSitev2.0/AnthemProduct/MCASeries/MCASpecs/MCASeriesSpecs.html
... not too bad ;o)
I am not sure the frequency response of the MCA 2, but it is probably about the same...
some amps will not handle some frequencies, and may be rated 20Hz -20kHz +- 3db... these would be your much cheaper amps, and if the -3 db part of the amp matches a similar frequency drop in the speakers, there will be large holes in frequency range produced...

JNorth1178

12-10-2006, 01:09 PM

Thanks for the info. I am flying blind but hope the gods are with me and I haven't goofed with the purchase of the Anthem. From your experience and knowlege of the Anthem does the frequency range match up? Thanks again. JNorth1178

Rock789

12-10-2006, 04:33 PM

well, if the range is the same... 20 Hz - 20 kHz (-0.15 db)... you don't have to worry about the amp, you will have to worry mostly about placement of the speakers with the acoustics of the room...

JNorth1178

12-15-2006, 09:04 PM

Rock789

12-15-2006, 10:27 PM

glad it worked for ya ;o)

hermanv

12-16-2006, 08:16 AM

I received my Anthem MCA 20 which I ordered after spending several houra on th forum gleaning ideas from you knowledgable guys on the posted subject. You all were right in saying power makes a difference in the quality of the sound. The Rotel did a respectable job but the Anthem is far crisper, clearer and cleaner sound. The soundstage is far broader too. Needless to say I am glad I made the leap. Just want to thank all of you who had input into my final decision. Happy listening. JNorth1178Another happy customer, please make checks payable to hermanv.............:)

Seriously, Ii'm delighed you are happy with your purchase. I learned the hard (expensive) way that each and every component is an important step in acheiving quality sound. Many are expensive enough to warrant some real effort in learning about them and thier competition.

There is no fixed relationship between price and and sound quality, so it's unfortunate that you can buy expensive stuff that doesn't reward in proportion to cost. Also unfortunate is that very few brands of inexpensive equipment delivers the goods like the big boys.

If you've chosen well, this is one of the few hobbies where joy of ownership doesn't decrease over time. As the choices for quality entertainment on television continues to decline my wife and I spend more and more time just listening to music. Unlike DVDs, at least uptil now, CDs are commercial free.

May you enjoy your purchase for many years.

Bingo

12-20-2006, 10:42 PM

If you can, before you buy any amp, move your speakers at least 3 ft. from the back wall and keep them as far apart as you can without getting too close to the side walls and listen to them that way for a week or so....its worth a try and its free. Since you listen to classical music I think you will find that your sound stage will broaden and deepen. If it does not, then you can pursue other solutions. I too am 'new' at this, but I do know that speakers must not be too close to the back and side walls to get optimum results. I am technically disadvantaged, but have had experience with this kind of speaker placement. Bingo.

dd24skater

01-03-2007, 03:10 PM

I have B&W 604's, they were powered by a Acurus 200 x 3. I just bought a Rotel 1090....Wow! Everything just snapped to life! I'm a more power guy, but I would highly recomend it.

SAEA501

01-05-2007, 02:25 PM

I have 3 Bryston power amps in my system and drive them with a Krell processor. the Bryston power amps sound much stronger than their power ratings suggest. I use 2 3BSSTs to drive the front mains, which is what I use when I listen to music. My speakers are pretty inefficient, about 87db, and the sound is really stunning. The amps sound best when worked a bit. They are one of the few amplifiers that are designed as two mono amps in a single chassis, which is one of the reasons they sound much stronger than their ratings, using two independent power supplies.

You should give them a try. I am fairly sure you'll be very surprised.

JNorth1178

02-10-2007, 08:35 PM

Bingo: I appreciate your suggestion re: speaker placement. The topography of my room limits me severely limited. My system is located in my Den or Study which is ovestuffed with book shelves and a wraparound desk on two walls. My speakers (B&Ws) are placed midway on two wide walls and about 18" from the wall. I could extend them another 6" without becoming a hazard. As is they are about 8' apart and about 6' each from the chair which I do most of my listening in. Any thoughts from t his inadequate description? JNorth 1178

hermanv

02-11-2007, 08:03 AM

On the Cardas Audio site is a simple equation for speaker to wall distance. It is an excellent starting point. There is also a link to a .pdf file for speakers along the long wall or for square rooms. Notes about dipoles etc.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

Speaker placement, simply stated:

The distance from the center of the woofer face to the side walls is:
Room Width times .276 (RW x .276)

The distance from the center of the woofer face to the wall behind the speaker is:
Room Width times .447 (RW x .447)

This is all you need to know to place speakers in a symmetrical, rectangular room!

George Cardas has some of the best and consistent verbiage about some of the mysteries of high end audio. Personally, I find both his explanations and his products exemplary.