Subwoofer for my HT System.

[blackadder4th]

I have recently been putting together my HT system and I'm now looking to close out the seal with a subwoofer. My current list of components are as follows:

NAD T743 receiver
Paradigm Monitor 11 fronts
Paradigm mini monitor surrounds
Paradigm cc370 center

Thanks in advance for your help.

[L.J.]

It would probably help if the fellas had a room size and budget to work with.

[swwdts]

What room size( sq.feet) is your HT in? I do not need to know it but, you do not want to buy a huge (above 12" ) powered subwoofer for a small area.For example my room HT room is 40 sq.feet so,I bought a Sony 8" 150 watt peak powered subwoofer I have the cut off set at 80HZ..It works fine for small HT area.The BEST powered subwoofer to EVERY is a BOSE powered subwoofer.Although,they cost a lot. Larger subwoofers do not make it better.They just cost more.If you want to know which is best.Get information on the subwoofers specs. The lower the HZ & higher peak the better.Also,you want to buy a good grade/type of subwoofer cable. I am a 20 feet THX grade cable nut! EVERY WIRE/CABLE I own for my HT is THX grade.

[blackadder4th]

Sorry guys. The room is 20x14 9ft ceiling.

[icarus]

One of my friends hasa paradigm set-up in a room similiar in size of yours and the seismic 10 works great, for your system the 12 could be a little over powering.

[swwdts]

I would use a 10" powered subwoofer.On the dts & THX website there are room set up examples to show where to set your speakers esp. your subwoofer to have the best sound possible for your HT.I set up my HT room based on the dts set up & it sounds really cool.I am a Sony geek but,if you want to spend over $ 400.00 buy a BOSE 10" powered subwoofer or the whole BOSE 7.1 set up for a little over $ 1000.00

[jrhymeammo]

Hey Blackadder4th, Welcome to AR.

I'm wondering if you could benefit more by adding more power. I think that NAD is capable of producing 50Watts all channels driven, so I think that's as good as 100wattish Denon(can't comment on their newest receivers though).
I say this because Monitor 11 are capable of playing fairly low freq. But if you just need added slam for hometheater purpose, How about asking GMichael and L.J. about their subs from partexpress? You dont need to match brand for subs. With your front speakers, I dont see the point of getting a 10" sub for dramatic differences.

I'm still not sure about swwdts. Maybe he's not a troll, but I really havent been able to figure him out.

JRA

[emorphien]

budget?

I'd go with a sub (parts express, Outlaw, Hsu, etc) to take the strain of covering bass away from the rest of your speakers. But we don't know how wealthy you're feeling.

swwdts seems trollish to me. Nobody recommends Sony or Bose and has an ear for audio, that I know of :)

[SlumpBuster]

swwdts seems trollish to me. Nobody recommends Sony or Bose and has an ear for audio, that I know of :)

SWWDTS is a trollish a$$ hat. A 10" Bose? Your trying too hard SWWDTS. You gotta make it more subtle.

I have Monitor 11s and they benefit greatly from a sub. JRA is right about power. I have a separate amp for the towers, but they still need a sub. I only use a small Velodyne 8" sub and its a huge difference. The 11's simply weren't designed to do what a sub does. Surprisingly, my recs don't include Paradigm subs:

Bang for buck: Dayton Titanic:http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&CAT_ID=48&ObjectGroup_ID=536&SO=2

Small and pretty: Velodyne SPL series. Price 800 to 1500 depending on size.http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/products/product.aspx?ID=13&sid=912w321l

Big and impressive: Axiom http://www.axiomaudio.com/subwoofers.html

Wife Upsetting:http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pcultra.cfm

[emorphien]

I heard the Martin Logan Depth model recently and was duly impressed.

[The Tahitijack]

I'm always amazed by the response to these type questions. Common sence tells us not to buy any product unless you have listed to it, tweeked it, compaired it to other gear and understand its limits. Yet, folks here often recommend products that are only available direct from the manufacturer, which precludes all the above with the added disadvantage that if its unsatisfactory you have a limited time to repack it, ship it back and wait for a refund. While its often tempting to order gear on-line, don't do it.

[jrhymeammo]

I'm always amazed by the response to these type questions. Common sence tells us not to buy any product unless you have listed to it, tweeked it, compaired it to other gear and understand its limits. Yet, folks here often recommend products that are only available direct from the manufacturer, which precludes all the above with the added disadvantage that if its unsatisfactory you have a limited time to repack it, ship it back and wait for a refund. While its often tempting to order gear on-line, don't do it.

Okay so what is your suggestion to Blackadder4th besides "dont do it"?

[Dusty Chalk]

I'm always amazed by the response to these type questions. Common sence tells us not to buy any product unless you have listed to it, tweeked it, compaired it to other gear and understand its limits. Yet, folks here often recommend products that are only available direct from the manufacturer, which precludes all the above with the added disadvantage that if its unsatisfactory you have a limited time to repack it, ship it back and wait for a refund. While its often tempting to order gear on-line, don't do it.What could possibly be better than hearing the gear in your own system? I agree with your premise, but completely disagree with your conclusion. This is the new business model, get used to it.

[emorphien]

I love that sites will provide you with free return shipping within a generous window if you don't like it. I don't like that it still means you have to buy them if you want to compare them to something else you can only get locally. It also exposes you to the possibility that you have to go through the return and wait for refund mess for something you just don't like at all. It's nice to go to a store, listen to several speakers and be able to easily eliminate the ones that just don't do it for you.

[audio amateur]

Who the heck is swwdts?!!

[Rock789]

but,if you want to spend over $ 400.00 buy a BOSE 10" powered subwoofer or the whole BOSE 7.1 set up for a little over $ 1000.00

does bose make a 10" powered sub for pa systems or what???

[emorphien]

does bose make a 10" powered sub for pa systems or what???
I don't know, but you can hardly call what they pass off to the consumer as a bass module a sub.

[Rock789]

I don't know, but you can hardly call what they pass off to the consumer as a bass module a sub.
what size speakers are in their bass module? 5.25"?

[emorphien]

what size speakers are in their bass module? 5.25"?
I think so. My parents have in their home the stereo pair of the twin cube speakers along with the bass module. It's awful but I've never said anything about it. They may have noticed though, I don't think they even listen to it any more.

[Jibba]

[I have Monitor 11s and they benefit greatly from a sub. JRA is right about power. I have a separate amp for the towers, but they still need a sub. I only use a small Velodyne 8" sub and its a huge difference. The 11's simply weren't designed to do what a sub does. Surprisingly, my recs don't include Paradigm subs:

Bang for buck: Dayton Titanic:http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&Webpage_ID=3&CAT_ID=48&ObjectGroup_ID=536&SO=2

Small and pretty: Velodyne SPL series. Price 800 to 1500 depending on size.http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/products/product.aspx?ID=13&sid=912w321l

Big and impressive: Axiom http://www.axiomaudio.com/subwoofers.html

Wife Upsetting:http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pcultra.cfm[/QUOTE]

I have Studio 20 v.3s up front, CC370, and Titans in the rear, and drive them with the new 3806 (still not setup--but it's going to a nice upgrade from the AVR 1804 that I've got). I finally buckled and got the Velo SPL 800 and man, it is a serious piece of equipment. I was frankly blown away. It's a little pricey ($1k) but worth it, IMHO.

[PaDave]

For your setup, i would recomend a velodyne 10'' PS, and dont go out and waste your money on a 8'' PS because in the end it will NOT in any way shape or form be able to produce the bass that a 10 or 12 will.

[The Tahitijack]

To jrhy and Dusty.

My advice to Blackadder is to shop his local audio/video stores. Some will often loan out open box/demo gear for a day or two. Most have a return policy and most have a used gear section where good gear can be had at a fraction of the new price. He should find enough subs to compare and find the right one for him.

I understand that some people will be satisfied ordering equipment on-line without hearing what it sounds like. I'm in that group that needs a test drive to confirm what I've been told is an outstanding product or a great value. While I agree that ordering softgoods on line is easy and often cost effective, when it comes to audio/video the average consumer still wants to see or hear it before plunking down hard cash.

Just my opinion....others disagree and thats what makes this forum interesting.

Happy Holidays

[Geoffcin]

I have recently been putting together my HT system and I'm now looking to close out the seal with a subwoofer. My current list of components are as follows:

NAD T743 receiver
Paradigm Monitor 11 fronts
Paradigm mini monitor surrounds
Paradigm cc370 center

Thanks in advance for your help.

Do you like action movies with lots of LF effects? If so then I would recommend at least a good 12" sub. Unlike speakers that have unique sonic signatures, subs for the most part are interchangable. A well made 12" sub is usually more than enough for a room of your size.

[Dusty Chalk]

I understand that some people will be satisfied ordering equipment on-line without hearing what it sounds like. I'm in that group that needs a test drive to confirm what I've been told is an outstanding product or a great value. You're not responding to what I wrote, you're just repeating an incorrect stance again. People will not have heard the equipment before they receive it, yes, but as soon as they receive it, they will have a chance to hear it. That's my point.

I agree that hearing equipment in one's system is the only way to achieve satisfaction. This is not mutually exclusive with buying online, as long as the dealer is reputable and is willing to receive returned equipment.

Heck, even if you buy and sell used equipment, you're still taking the time to hear the equipment in your system. To me, this seems a perfectly logical extrapolation of hearing the equipment.

Now, it might be a different stance that you don't want to plunk down any money without hearing it first, but I consider that a fair trade-off, from a business perspective on the seller's part. I'm just saying that it's a new business model to hear the equipment in your own setup, and with the option to live with it for an extended period of time. You might take a loss if you sell it used, rather than return equipment to a seller within the allotted time. But you might not, if you bought the equipment used at a discount as well.

[emorphien]

Now, it might be a different stance that you don't want to plunk down any money without hearing it first, but I consider that a fair trade-off, from a business perspective on the seller's part. I'm just saying that it's a new business model to hear the equipment in your own setup, and with the option to live with it for an extended period of time.
Good shops will often loan you their floor model to try something out at home too, which is really nice. No big money involved but a chance to try it where it counts.

[Dusty Chalk]

Good shops will often loan you their floor model to try something out at home too, which is really nice. No big money involved but a chance to try it where it counts.People keep saying this, but I have yet to experience this myself. Maybe it's the way I look (long haired hippy/scary looking guy), but they usually want me to put the cost of the item down as a deposit ... you know, just in case I don't come back. Of course, to be fair, they'd then have to ask everyone else to do the same.

And to be clear: I don't have a problem with this. In more than one case, I have decided to keep the equipment and not come back. It just saves me a trip. And if you don't have the money to put down on it, then you probably shouldn't be taking it home. And if you're not serious enough about it to plunk the money down, even as a deposit, why the L are you taking it home?

I mean, it's not a black and white thing -- once you bought it, you have to keep it. There's nothing that says that that has to be the way it is. Of course, you should check beforehand that it's returnable. I had one guy (arse-hole, mostly) tell me that if I wanted to return it beyond the 30 day window, I could, but then we'd have to start looking at a restocking fee. I think if I'd have asked if we could waive that, he would've, as the item in question was in a middlin' high demand (limited edition Special 25 speaker from Dynaudio).

[kexodusc]

Dusty's right. The new business model is factory direct with 30-day money back guarantee. It might not be what the consumer wants, but it's effective.
More to the point, I've heard probably a dozen different internet/factory-direct brands now, and I'm absolutely convinced that for speakers and subs (in that price category - often $1000 or less for a pair or sub), those brands are often beating their traditional brick & mortar store competition. Once you get into the $1500+ range, internet direct companies become fewer and far between - but there's still a few and they make damn fine products for the money.

That's a big admission for me too- a few years back I was dead set against them. I believed the return policy was an unfair burden on the consumer. But it's not really. Most stores I know won't do the in-home demo unless you pay for it up front anyway - so both methods have the 30 day return policy. The difference is shipping vs. time, and travel costs to return the product yourself. B&M probably has the advantage there, but I don't think it's that big anymore.

There's so many Axiom, Rocket, Ascend, SVS, HSU etc owners in most cities now that it's not hard to setup a demo if you're really so inclined to try them out first.

Some people aren't comfortable with that route, so there's always the local hi-fi shop, but for those who are, there's a lot of great options and values to be found.

Either way, that business model is here to stay.

[Geoffcin]

People keep saying this, but I have yet to experience this myself. Maybe it's the way I look (long haired hippy/scary looking guy), but they usually want me to put the cost of the money down as a deposit ... you know, just in case I don't come back. Of course, to be fair, they'd then have to ask everyone else to do the same.


I agree with Rusty Hawk on this; Getting a piece of Hi-Fi equipment on loan is a difficult thing unless your talking upscale to major high-end. A $500 sub is not something that there's a big enough markup on that loaning one out makes sense. A $10,000 amp might. Of course you'll also have to have a working relationship with your dealer too, as I can't see anyone loaning you some ML Summit's if you've just walked in off the street.

[Rock789]

fyi...

I have been to a couple audio stores across ohio, and into pa which asked if I wanted to demo something in my system...
I inquired about the process at two locations and the process was the same...

they put a hold on my credit card for the amount of the item... that is... I sign a credit card statement just like a bill, but, the money is not actually charged, a "hold" is placed on the amount of money,...
e.g. If i have a $5k credit limit, and a hold is placed for a $1k sub, my credit limit is now only $4k...

I can keep the unit for a week or two, then if I want the unit, I call in, and tell them to bill me... in which case the $1k would be billed to my credit card, or if I don't want the unit, I simply return it... nothing is ever billed to me...

not all stores may be like this... but one in canton ohio and one in columbus ohio are like this...

(I have not checked the process at other stores)

hope this helps,
Mike

edit... the columbus store's item I was discussing was ~$700 2ch amp...

[RoyY51]

If you're looking to go the internet route (with a 30 day return policy) I urge you to consider the Outlaw LFM-1. I've had mine for about a year now, and I can truthfully say that it's one of the best audio investments that I've ever made. I auditioned several other brands (Hsu, Velodyne, etc...) and none of them matched the value that this $579.00 beast offers. I don't think you're going to find this rare combination of tuneful musicality and feel-it-in-your-chest aggression anywhere else for under $1000. Especially when paying the usual bricks-and-mortar markup.

[emorphien]

Of course you'll also have to have a working relationship with your dealer too, as I can't see anyone loaning you some ML Summit's if you've just walked in off the street.
I'm certainly not a high end customer as a graduate student, but my store remembers me and I suppose I do have a bit of a working relationship with them. They've offered to let me try speakers starting at $800 a pair at home.

But you are all probably right, there's probably a lot of variables. Just going from my experience and what others have said, some shops may work with you if they know you and let you borrow things.

[Geoffcin]

I'm certainly not a high end customer as a graduate student, but my store remembers me and I suppose I do have a bit of a working relationship with them. They've offered to let me try speakers starting at $800 a pair at home.

But you are all probably right, there's probably a lot of variables. Just going from my experience and what others have said, some shops may work with you if they know you and let you borrow things.

And when your talking speakers it makes good sense. However, I wouldn't discount the internet direct-to-consumer manufacturers. My first taste was the Axiom system;

http://www.audioreview.com/AXIOMINTROcrx.aspx

[emorphien]

However, I wouldn't discount the internet direct-to-consumer manufacturers.
I like them quite well. In fact I have Axiom speakers now (which I am looking to upgrade from) but I took the Internet Direct "gamble" on them and was happy.

I think the pro-internet direct argument is easier to handle when you've got more money to work with because dealing with receiving and returning and having your money away from you at that time is somewhat daunting for someone such as myself who doesn't have income from a job. I get a stipend from school but only a little each month gets saved after bills and the like.