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Swish
11-27-2006, 06:08 AM
This week's entry is another that is well-deserved in my opinion, and is certainly a departure from most of those listed before it. The Byrds - Sweetheart of the Rodeo (1968)

At one inspired stroke, Sweetheart vanquished the cultural divide between acid-munching, peace-preaching long hairs and beer-swilling, flag-waving good old country boys by creating the enduring hybrid of country-rock. Allying rippling guitars and silky vocal harmonies with a mix of country tradition (I am a Pilgrim) and Gram Parsons originals, the record irrevocably altered the perspective of two previously averse streams of Americana. The group even cut their hair to play the Grand Ole Opry. Without this there would be no Hotel California, no Willie Nelson, no Shania Twain.

Boy, they had me right up until the "Without this" part. Hotel California? Please. Shania Twain? Give me a break! What about "real" country rock artists like Neil Young? Poco? New Riders of the Purple Sage? The Flying Burrito Brothers, the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Commander Cody, and more recently Uncle Tupelo, the Jayhawks, the Meat Puppets and Sun Volt?

Thoughts? Comments?

Swish

Resident Loser
11-27-2006, 08:08 AM
...No Willie Nelson? He's older than dirt, writing music like Patsy Cline's crossover Crazy way back when...Didn't Frank Sinatra do The Nightlife or am I nuts? I remember seeing WN in a dark suit with a real thin tie on el boobus toobus...may be on Ed Sullivan...

And there were hints of country-rock in some of the Beatles albums, and the Stones, and The Lovin' Spoonful, Buffalo Springfield?, and even the Byrds Younger Than Yesterday collection...Is this particular album seminal in some fashion? What was their follow-up?

jimHJJ(...I dunno' bout any of this...)

Swish
11-27-2006, 08:22 AM
...No Willie Nelson? He's older than dirt, writing music like Patsy Cline's crossover Crazy way back when...Didn't Frank Sinatra do The Nightlife or am I nuts? I remember seeing WN in a dark suit with a real thin tie on el boobus toobus...may be on Ed Sullivan...

And there were hints of country-rock in some of the Beatles albums, and the Stones, and The Lovin' Spoonful, Buffalo Springfield?, and even the Byrds Younger Than Yesterday collection...Is this particular album seminal in some fashion? What was their follow-up?

jimHJJ(...I dunno' bout any of this...)

The Byrds were more Beatle-esqe prior to this recording (Mr. Tambourine Man and Turn, Turn, Turn in '65), and in my mind it started the country-rock craze, with some help from the Band with their Music From Big Pink (they just didn't seem as country except when Levon Helm was on vocals) that was released the same year. Buffalo Springield was also on the cusp or country rock, but Gram Parsons was really "the man".

Swish

nobody
11-27-2006, 08:27 AM
They may have revived and re-popularized the fusing of country and rock, but wasn't that just an old rockabilly trick? I mean, maybe they fused the then current style of rock with country, but rock and country were linked from the get go. If Johnny Cash wasn't leaning heavily on both rock and country and coming down somewhere in the middle, I don't know what he was doin'.

The Byrds biggest influence was in that gangly guitar sound they popularized, not merging two styles that had been walking arm in arm long before they played a note.

Resident Loser
11-27-2006, 08:39 AM
...The Byrds biggest influence was in that gangly guitar sound they popularized, not merging two styles that had been walking arm in arm long before they played a note.

...sound was that Rikenbacker 12-string...and even that had been used before...Carl Wilson and the Beach Boys Help Me Rhonda for one and on Pet Sounds...

jimHJJ(...everybody re-invents the wheel...)

3-LockBox
11-27-2006, 12:36 PM
...No Willie Nelson? He's older than dirt, writing music like Patsy Cline's crossover Crazy way back when...Didn't Frank Sinatra do The Nightlife or am I nuts? I remember seeing WN in a dark suit with a real thin tie on el boobus toobus...may be on Ed Sullivan...

And there were hints of country-rock in some of the Beatles albums, and the Stones, and The Lovin' Spoonful, Buffalo Springfield?, and even the Byrds Younger Than Yesterday collection...Is this particular album seminal in some fashion? What was their follow-up?

jimHJJ(...I dunno' bout any of this...)

Sure, most of the albums these guys are picking are good and all, but...

The writers of this article couldn't find their own ass with both hands.

Yer right about Willie, and yes, Buck Owens had a hit rekkid covering Vonnie Morrison's Act Naturally (which was performed by Ringo) and the songs What Goes On from Rubber Soul and Dr Robert from Revolver show that the Beatles had a bead on this way before the Byrds did.

BradH
11-27-2006, 03:19 PM
They may have revived and re-popularized the fusing of country and rock, but wasn't that just an old rockabilly trick? I mean, maybe they fused the then current style of rock with country, but rock and country were linked from the get go. If Johnny Cash wasn't leaning heavily on both rock and country and coming down somewhere in the middle, I don't know what he was doin'.

The Byrds biggest influence was in that gangly guitar sound they popularized, not merging two styles that had been walking arm in arm long before they played a note.

Man, you guys are waaay off the mark. Look at that list of bands Swish mentioned - and you can add Pure Prairie League and a slew of others including the early 70's Austin scene (and yeah, that included Willie at the time). That all came out of what Parsons did, not some cover versions of Carl Perkins by the Stones or Beatles. So, it doesn't matter that c&w was already ingrained in rock 'n' roll. The blues were also ingrained but it didn't stop Mayall's Bluesbreakers album from being a breakthrough and Clapton having his influence. Same deal with Parsons. He pulled out and emphasized c&w out of the R&R genetic code the way Clapton had already done with the blues.

This is a solid, serious pick from the Guardian but, as usual, they can't seem to explain why.

MindGoneHaywire
11-28-2006, 01:15 AM
>No Willie Nelson?

Scary.

>And there were hints of country-rock in some of the Beatles albums, and the Stones, and The Lovin' Spoonful, Buffalo Springfield?, and even the Byrds Younger Than Yesterday collection...Is this particular album seminal in some fashion? What was their follow-up?

The Beatles' covers such as 'Act Naturally' were not considered 'country-rock' as the label became defined. It was a couple of years before what we now think of as that had become a tangible form, so that's a valid point, but branching out to do a C&W toon didn't make the Beatles a country-rock band, nor one that was interested in being that. For the most part, actually, they'd left it behind with the Beatles For Sale album. Ringo was the only one interested enough to write a song like Don't Pass Me By, 3 years after Act Naturally.

The Stones didn't have much of a country aspect until what, Beggar's Banquet? Dear Doctor? That's arguably a country-blues, but no matter. Labels are frustrating. The fact is, the country stuff they're most known for--Dead Flowers, Torn & Frayed, etc., was stuff that it's not likely would've been written had they not become friendly with Gram Parsons. I've seen it suggested that he deserves writing credit for one or two of 'em, actually, and the Buriitos did cover Wild Horses. But even after his death, they did put together Far Away Eyes, and even if the chorus sounds like they swiped it from Dylan's Tomorrow Is A Long Time (or at least Elvis' cover of it). But this was all after Sweetheart.

I can't speak to the Lovin' Spoonful, but once you bring Buffalo Springfield into the discussion, then I think you're looking more at some of the stuff some of those guys did afterwards, like Poco. But you can put all of those names together & Gram Parsons was indisputably still ahead of the curve. The proof is the International Submarine Band album from 1967. The Byrds wanted to go in that direction, but it wasn't going to happen until David Crosby left. That happened during the followup, which was the Notorious Byrd Brothers, and there's some stuff on there that hints towards what Parsons was doing, but it wasn't until he came on board that they had completely turned from 'rock' or 'folk-rock' to what by then was becoming known as 'country-rock.'

>They may have revived and re-popularized the fusing of country and rock, but wasn't that just an old rockabilly trick? I mean, maybe they fused the then current style of rock with country, but rock and country were linked from the get go.

But rockabilly wasn't 'country-rock,' it was something completely different. Interestingly, though, one very significant guy who was doing stuff along the lines of what Gram Parsons was doing, as far back as 1966, was Ricky Nelson. I'm not sure if there's a record that supports it, but some would say Nelson was just as on it as Parsons was. But, Parsons gets the credit. If that's a mistake, I'd think that collectively some of us would have known why by now. That's not to say there's not a rec that's as good as ISB or Sweetheart & dates from the same period. But I haven't heard it, and I don't know anyone who has, either.


>The Byrds biggest influence was in that gangly guitar sound they popularized, not merging two styles that had been walking arm in arm long before they played a note.

No, I disagree with that. I think drawing a direct line between Sweetheart Of The Rodeo & Hotel California is unparalleled stupidity, but it is true that there is no Eagles without Gram Parsons...and I can't see arguing the point that they were way more popular than any band that ever picked up that gangly guitar sound that McGuinn got out of the 12-string Rick that George Harrison had used as far back as A Hard Day's Night in early 1964.


>that Rikenbacker 12-string...and even that had been used before...Carl Wilson and the Beach Boys Help Me Rhonda for one and on Pet Sounds...

I don't know that Help Me Rhonda features a 12-string Rick, but even if it does, it's exactly a year after George Harrison is using it to record A Hard Day's Night. Yr overall point is correct, but the details don't make sense. A 12-string Rick on Pet Sounds? I don't know about that, it's possible, I suppose, but Pet Sounds was certainly not 'before' the Byrds. Regardless, for the most part, the Byrds featured that guitar sound way more than the Beatles or the Beach Boys had, or anyone else for that matter. So, yes, it had been done, but it was more than just a re-invention of the wheel, and therefore deserves more credit than I think you're allowing here.

>The writers of this article couldn't find their own ass with both hands.

I agree, but this one makes more sense than London Calling or Sgt. Pepper.

>Yer right about Willie, and yes, Buck Owens had a hit rekkid covering Vonnie Morrison's Act Naturally (which was performed by Ringo) and the songs What Goes On from Rubber Soul and Dr Robert from Revolver show that the Beatles had a bead on this way before the Byrds did.

I'm sorry, I don't see a comparison between What Goes On or Dr. Robert to anything on Sweetheart Of The Rodeo.


The best confirmation of why this choice makes sense is the International Submarine Band album. Period. Gram Parsons will never get enough credit for what he did, period. Willie Nelson was great, but he did not invent country-rock. Gram Parsons did, at least as much as anyone else. That said, to list Willie, Hotel California, & Shania Twain as three that would've never happened without this rec is easily the most dumba$$ BS that's yet emerged in 20 weeks of this. And confirms that a bunch of people firmly rooted in a British approach to pop music cobbled together a nice list of recs that they can't begin to make a case as to why they deserve to be written about.

BradH
11-28-2006, 04:45 AM
The Stones didn't have much of a country aspect until what, Beggar's Banquet?

Well, there was "High And Dry" on Aftermath and you could possibly include "The Last Time" from even earlier. But it's like you said, these were just forays into the genre. Some were excellent too like The Byrds' "Mr. Spaceman" in 1966. I think Buffalo Springfield deserves a lot more credit than citing an ex-member founding Poco years later. Listen to their first single "Go And Say Goodbye" from 1966. Very country but also very folk & bluegrass, so it's not quite the pure-toned c&w of Parsons. It doesn't matter where anyone points, nothing deserves the credit for that early 70's country rock movement like Sweetheart Of The Rodeo. You can point to the International Submarine Band and make a good case for Parsons but Sweetheart had much bigger sales so, naturally, it was more influential.

Btw, I agree with 3-Lock that The Beatles' "What Goes On" was c&w but it obviously wasn't something they considered seriously enough to make a career out of. "Dr. Roberts" also has that country guitar picking in it.


Regardless, for the most part, the Byrds featured that guitar sound way more than the Beatles or the Beach Boys had, or anyone else for that matter. So, yes, it had been done, but it was more than just a re-invention of the wheel...

The irony is that their ringing 12-string Rick style was inspired by the Beatles who, I'm absolutely convinced, copped it from Buddy Holly and his double-tracked guitar on "Words Of Love". That's not really blues or folk, that's a country picking style and there's a bunch of it on Beatles For Sale. So, I guess the Byrds came full circle in a strange roundabout way.

3-LockBox
11-28-2006, 08:35 AM
Certainly, there are prolly a lot of instances of British and American acts dabbling in C&W in the early '60s, but all they did was dabble. The Grateful Dead and The Band dipped heavily into the C&W well, but maybe they were influenced by early Byrds and Dylan. When I hear what The Byrds were doing in the '60s I hear mostly what Dylan was doing, so I don't know how innovative The Byrds were, given that most of the most country sounding songs were covers. I do think Ricky Nelson is a good call, though, I couldn't put a name to an actual album either. His stuff from the early '70s certainly follows this trend.

I'm not saying that SotR wasn't a daring album (it prolly warrants mentioning on that basis at least), but The Byrds music seems to me a collection of current (at the time) influences, rather than innovation. It would (as MGH already pointed out) be more accurate to site Parsons as the influence here, since he brought the background with him when he joined The Byrds, and continued in that direction after SotR. I'll give credit to Parsons for following his passion for C&W and taking it seriously in a time when 'real' C&W was a parody of itself. His stuff was the most pure statements in the genre, at the time.

I can hear Parsons' influence on the first few Eagles albums, so mentioning them as having been influenced by SotW isn't too much of a stretch. But because Hotel California is the groups most popular album, its the one that gets cited. Just dumb. And the Twain reference is from way, way out there in left field. Were these guys in a big hurry or something? Once again, lazy-a$$ed journalism. This is starting to read like an 8th grade essay.

dean_martin
11-28-2006, 10:00 AM
It's a good pick, but once again the "there would be no ______" criticism is justified. Let's see. The Byrds' Sweetheart of the Rodeo lineup begat The Flying Burrito Bros. which contributed the main country & western influence to the Eagles - Bernie Leadon (banjo/guitar). By the time Hotel California came along, the Eagles had added Joe Walsh and were moving in another direction. Hotel Calif. is not a direct influence as compared to the Eagles' first 2 albums.

Sweetheart of the Rodeo covers the Louvin Bros., Merle Haggard, George Jones and a traditional old-time gospel hymn "I am a Pilgrim". You'd be hard-pressed to find a rock/folk band releasing such material at the time. Obviously, this was the influence of Gram Parsons at work. The jangly 12-string guitar and swirling sounds that the Byrds made famous are, for the most part, replaced with banjo and slide-guitar (or, pedal steel). IMO, the Flying Burrito Bros. perfected this sound on their first album, but "Hickory Wind" from Sweetheart is a darn near perfect example.

Then, Gram Parsons's Greivous Angels period gave us Emmy Lou Harris! Every "alt.-country" singer and wannabee has recorded with her - Steve Earle, Ryan Adams, Bright Eyes, etc. Of course her own albums from the mid to late 70s are classics and at least one won a grammy.

I tend to think of this "vein" of country & western as different from the Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, Merle Haggard, Billy Joe Shaver, outlaw country vein, though I like both. As for the "there would be no___" comments, without Sweetheart of the Rodeo, Willie Nelson would be...Willie Nelson. I think Townes Van Zandt is probably the best example of an artist who bridges the gap between what Gram Parsons started and what the outlaws did. And Shania Twain? I'm not sure where that's comin' from, although I'm not that familiar with her music. Again, I think Emmy Lou Harris is the more definitive artist to follow the Sweetheart pattern.

As for influence, Uncle Tupelo and its spawns and Whiskeytown and its spawn go back to Gram Parsons (or, what Parsons was doing) on Sweetheart. I have an Americana comp that follows "Sin City" with "No Depression". I can't listen to one without the other.

BradH
11-28-2006, 10:37 AM
The Grateful Dead and The Band dipped heavily into the C&W well, but maybe they were influenced by early Byrds and Dylan. When I hear what The Byrds were doing in the '60s I hear mostly what Dylan was doing, so I don't know how innovative The Byrds were, given that most of the most country sounding songs were covers.

The Band could hardly NOT be influenced by Dylan seeing as how they were his backup band. Their debut was just a few months after SotR but was equally influential overall although maybe not exactly straight up country rock. They seem a little earthier than, say, Flying Burrito Brothers or Commander Cody. Maybe more country than western. I guess Little Feat fit somewhere between the two. The Band were a grab bag of much broader influences, as were the Dead. But the Byrds were definitely innovative. Combining Dylan w/ the Beatles may not seem like much these days but it deeply impressed Dylan and the Beatles. Mr. Tambourine Man was a cohesive album in a way no Beatles album was until Rubber Soul. It was more covertly stoned, too.

The Dead is a perfect example of how Parsons crystallized things for a lot of people. Weir and Garcia were raised on bluegrass & folk and later cut their teeth on the Bakersfield sound. You'd think they might have done something like SofR earlier but they were still a relatively wild @ss band when SotR was released. Garcia was still using tons of fuzz tone onstage. They spent a large chunk of that year (1968) recording the most freaky, off-the-wall album of their entire career, Anthem Of The Sun. Garcia didn't learn the pedal steel until '69 - which is amazing considering how good he sounds on CSNY's "Teach Your Children". He needed an outlet for that skill so in 1971 he was basically a full time member of New Riders Of The Purple Sage, three years after SotR. And that's a direct descendant of Parson's vision if ever there was one. By then, the Dead had done Workingman's Dead and American Beauty which made Aoxomoxoa sound like a prog-rock record in comparison. So I see Parsons as the true leader in this area because he was more defined at an earlier stage than just about anybody.

I suppose you'd have to include early Eagles in this whole mess, although, to me, bands like the Eagles and America played country rock like MacDonalds makes hamburgers. But I've heard from a couple of people that the Eagles were hot onstage before they got a contract.

Rick Nelson is interesting. I've heard it said his country influences were showing as early as his very first records. You can hear he had his own style early on. I guess he wasn't as influential as Parsons because everybody had to go through psychedelia before the time was ripe.

nobody
11-28-2006, 01:05 PM
I realize that the rockabilly style was very different from the sound of the Byrds. However, the point is, the idea that country and rock are such seperate entities seems to crop up from time to time, but it's never really true and all it takes is another band to come along and point it out. Rock and country were just very different animals in the late 60s than in the 50s, so the result sounds different. But, take a listen to From Elvis in Memphis, put out around the same time as the Byrds album and you can see Elvis was more than comfortable with country rock around the same era. Yeah...yeah...he wasn't hip and cool at that time. But, he was blending those styles just as effectively as bands like the Byrds that were all hip and cool back then. And, blending those two styles was something he brought with him from way back.

tentoze
11-28-2006, 01:37 PM
I don't have the patience to argue about any of this other than asking the question, "What is a gangly guitar?" Jangly I know in reference to guitar tones. Gangly is something applied to long, lean, ungainly physical forms.

Never mind, folks- go right ahead here.

nobody
11-28-2006, 01:46 PM
I would guess that Joey Ramone would play a gangly guitar.

I can't spell for sht.

BradH
11-28-2006, 03:02 PM
Yeah...yeah...he wasn't hip and cool at that time. But, he was blending those styles just as effectively as bands like the Byrds that were all hip and cool back then. And, blending those two styles was something he brought with him from way back.

You can despise late 60's rock all you want but there was a lot of energy there and Parsons tapped into it by being the right person in the right place at the right time. Elvis had no chance of pushing rock in any direction after spending eight years in Hollywood working on his lucrative irrelevancy. There are various reasons why Elvis or Rick Nelson or Johnny Cash or Buck Owens or any number of people who had the right tools didn't spawn the country rock era but the fact remains that they didn't make it happen so they don't deserve the credit for doing so. What happened is what happened and no amount of theorizing can change it. Parsons made it happen so he deserves the credit for what he did.

dean_martin
11-28-2006, 03:18 PM
Elvis and Cash, the fathers of country rock? I can see that. I mostly associate Buck Owens with the Bakersfield sound that was continued by Dwight Yoakam - more of a country/honky tonk sound.

I don't think Sweetheart is representative of the Byrds' sound as a whole. That's why Gram Parsons, while a member of the Byrds, should really get the credit here.

nobody
11-28-2006, 05:32 PM
You can despise late 60's rock all you want but there was a lot of energy there and Parsons tapped into it by being the right person in the right place at the right time. Elvis had no chance of pushing rock in any direction after spending eight years in Hollywood working on his lucrative irrelevancy. There are various reasons why Elvis or Rick Nelson or Johnny Cash or Buck Owens or any number of people who had the right tools didn't spawn the country rock era but the fact remains that they didn't make it happen so they don't deserve the credit for doing so. What happened is what happened and no amount of theorizing can change it. Parsons made it happen so he deserves the credit for what he did.

I guess if you want to look at the specific strain of country-rock that got popular around that time, absolutely. I think my problem is with the term country-rock only being applied to a narrow sample of music rather than the larger strain of music that fused the two together over a much longer period of time.

And, yeah, my perspective is colored by not really having much of an affinity for music of that era.

BradH
11-28-2006, 06:33 PM
Elvis and Cash, the fathers of country rock? I can see that.

Well, in a Six Degrees Of Separation kind of way they were. It always comes back to that because "nobody" is right that, in a deep structrual way, the term "country-rock" is reduntant. So is "blues-rock" and yet there was a distinct blues-rock style. That's what I was trying to get at by mentioning Mayall & Clapton. Likewise, I don't think anybody was listening to the Byrds in '68 and saying, "Wow, it sounds just like the Stones!" What Parsons did was very specific. The surface style really matters. There really is a country guitar style of playing.

[QUOTE=nobody}And, yeah, my perspective is colored by not really having much of an affinity for music of that era.[/QUOTE]

That's okay. The young SRV in Austin thought all the outlaws and country rockers were no better than a bunch of goat humpers.

MindGoneHaywire
11-29-2006, 01:48 AM
I think we've pretty effectively beaten this to death, but just in case anyone doesn't agree with that, here's a link to a discussion I had a couple of years ago with one of the big poo-bahs over at the Asylum on the topic of Gram Parsons. It began in an innocent thread about 'favorite Eagles albums'; someone decided to make the claim that the Eagles drew heavily...aw, hell, ripped him off...and it followed from there. Long-ish, but a good read, I think.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/music/rock/messages/39668.html

Resident Loser
11-29-2006, 07:35 AM
...the fun of it...since it's still wigglin' around, a few more whacks...just some semi-related trivia...

Re: the twelve-string...Leadbelly in the 40s, Don Gibson in the 50s...According to the Rickenbacker archives, John Lennon as early as 1960...On the original mono back cover of Pet Sounds, there's a picture of Carl Wilson w/ the BBs on a tour in Japan, some videos on youtube (one of them, Help Me, Rhonda) from '65 playing one, and in an interview he names Sloop John B. and some other songs, although he says he thinks it was an Epiphone 12, although Rickenbacker does/did have a Carl Wilson model)...Additionally, there are early promo pictures of Keith Richards (gatefold photos for High Tide And Green Grass) with a Guild twelve-string acoustic (I'm thinkin' As Tears Go By) and Brian Jones with a white teardrop-shaped Vox electric...And there was Peter And Gordon (or was it Chad And Jeremy?)...Even the Turtles...I recall reading somewhere that McGuinn and his producer decided to highlight the 12-string sound by boosting the treble, which did provide the Byrd's signature sound...

And the we get into the whole cross pollination of it all...If you subscribe to the premise of American CWs roots as Celtic and the blues as an amalgam of Scots-Irish forms with African rhythms and melody and rock being descended from a further mix of country and R&B, it gets really, really hazy...add some folk, which drew from many sources, and throw in a bit of skiffle and ya' got yerself one heck of a gumbo...

My vote for a pop/CW crossover would probably be more like Ray Charles' 1959 disk Modern Sounds In Country Western Music...IMO a way more diverse amalgamation than SOTR, which by comparison just seems like part of the ongoing evolution of pop/rock...

And my all-time, hands-down, fave for odd combos has to be Frank Zappa's paean to CW, Harder Than Your Husband...

Of course, the preceding is provided for no apparent reason...No argument is intended in it's presentation, nor will any be engaged in...twist it, tear it, tie it in a knot...do what you must do...and as Yogi Berra said "You could look it up"...

jimHJJ(...and didn't Parsons leave the group prior to the album's release?...)

3-LockBox
11-29-2006, 11:52 AM
I think we've pretty effectively beaten this to death

(from another website)

"This horse is not only beaten past his expiration, he's now a fine paste suitible for a tasty equine sandwhich spread."

3-LockBox
11-29-2006, 12:33 PM
someone decided to make the claim that the Eagles drew heavily...aw, hell, ripped him off...and it followed from there.

since this has become a sorta country-rock thread, this won't be too much a wild tangent, but...

I never understood the Eagles haters. Sure, you don't have to like the Eagles. Sure, they kinda turned into a bunch of self-important dicks, and they proceeded to rip off fans by putting on a decade long farewell tour, and they still have a handful of songs that have been played to death as of two decades ago (and going). And yeah, I did come to the realization a few years ago that they prolly get way too much credit for the country-rock phenomina.

They were a great band at one time, though. They were decent enough writers (and were good friends with better writers), and they were decent enough musicians (and were good friends with better musicians); they made the best of their circumstances, talent and resources, using all three to good effect. They became crazy popular, super rich, and yes, self-important. A friend of mine saw them twice, at the beginning and end of their '70s run. He said they were OK in the beginning, and disinterested toward the end.

But during their heyday, they never put out a bad album IMO. Considering the clash of egos that took place in that band, its amazing that they put out six great albums in a short span (ok, Long Run had some filler). Does it matter that they cherry picked from the artists/sounds that surrounded them? Is it because they got so popular when the 'originators' didn't? If the Eagles are such obvious, overrated copycats, are other acts who infuse country and rock a bunch of hacks?

I'd rather see more artists co-opt Gram Parsons than see one more fvcking black hat act come outta C&W.

Swish
11-29-2006, 01:08 PM
Man, you guys are waaay off the mark. Parsons pulled out and emphasized c&w out of the R&R genetic code the way Clapton had already done with the blues.

This is a solid, serious pick from the Guardian but, as usual, they can't seem to explain why.

I was out of town and just caught up with the thread. I wanted to say much the same regarding the Beatles and so forth after reading some of the comments, but you said it better than I could have.

Swish

BradH
11-29-2006, 01:44 PM
I wanted to say much the same regarding the Beatles and so forth after reading some of the comments, but you said it better than I could have.

Thanks.

"All I said was Parsons is bigger than God and now it's all this."

MindGoneHaywire
11-29-2006, 08:55 PM
since this has become a sorta country-rock thread, this won't be too much a wild tangent, but...

I never understood the Eagles haters. Sure, you don't have to like the Eagles. Sure, they kinda turned into a bunch of self-important dicks, and they proceeded to rip off fans by putting on a decade long farewell tour, and they still have a handful of songs that have been played to death as of two decades ago (and going). And yeah, I did come to the realization a few years ago that they prolly get way too much credit for the country-rock phenomina.

They were a great band at one time, though. They were decent enough writers (and were good friends with better writers), and they were decent enough musicians (and were good friends with better musicians); they made the best of their circumstances, talent and resources, using all three to good effect. They became crazy popular, super rich, and yes, self-important. A friend of mine saw them twice, at the beginning and end of their '70s run. He said they were OK in the beginning, and disinterested toward the end.

But during their heyday, they never put out a bad album IMO. Considering the clash of egos that took place in that band, its amazing that they put out six great albums in a short span (ok, Long Run had some filler). Does it matter that they cherry picked from the artists/sounds that surrounded them? Is it because they got so popular when the 'originators' didn't? If the Eagles are such obvious, overrated copycats, are other acts who infuse country and rock a bunch of hacks?

I'd rather see more artists co-opt Gram Parsons than see one more fvcking black hat act come outta C&W.


Never liked their music. Ever. Not when I first heard their stuff on the radio, not when I listened to classic rock regularly as a kid, when I had a few records I wouldn't allow in my house these days. They never appealed to me, and I never liked Jackson Browne, Boz Scaggs, or other certain contemporaries of theirs, either. Not my cup of tea. They had an approach towards country-rock that always struck me differently than ISB, Sweetheart, the Burritos, and even Poco & stuff like Pure Prairie League or the Grateful Dead recs of the era, which are the only Dead recs I actually like. Before I ever read some anecdote about how they were arrogant or whatever, before I ever read the chuckly Tom Waits insult, before I ever heard of Gram Parsons, I heard their music & just didn't like it. At the time I was more apt to turn the dial on an Eagles song than I was on a Hall & Oates song. And hell, I probably still feel the same way. It has nothing to do with that reunion, and it was something I felt long before I realized that folks who couldn't figure out how I couldn't like their music (since everyone else does, of course) mostly didn't know who the hell Gram Parsons was.

As much as I like country-rock in the Parsons mold, it's something I only listen to so much of. And I'm more than fine with the Parsons and Parsons-related output, and the acts among the No Depression movement that sound a hell of a lot more like what Parsons was trying to do, than anything I've ever heard the Eagles do. And while there's some stuff on their periphery that I do enjoy--a stray early Linda Ronstadt toon or two, the first Crosby, Stills & Nash album, a rec or two by the Fleetwood Mac of that era, etc., I've long given up on anything they ever put out falling within the boundaries of what I happen to enjoy.

I first read about Parsons in "Up And Down With The Rolling Stones," so I knew a little something about his influence, and it's pretty easy to hear in Wild Horses, Dead Flowers, Torn & Frayed, etc. I'd heard my share of the Eagles before I even heard any of those songs, and eventually the ISB album, and Sweetheart after that. You can't compare those records to what Elvis was doing in Memphis, or anything else so far as I can hear. If anything, Elvis later put out a rec or two that had echoes of what Parsons had been doing, not the other way around.

The ISB rec was pretty darned obscure & long out of print, and Sweetheart was a consistent budget title for years & years. Then the Eagles get back together & command ridiculous prices & put out the rec & whatever they did & it sold gazillions and...that's fine. I don't hate them for that, or anything else, really. But knowing that Parsons' cues were responsible for their initial blueprint, which eventually led to what it is they became, is just something I'd rather have seen happen differently...but in the end it's not something I get too worked up about. I've just never liked anything they've ever done.

BradH
11-29-2006, 10:10 PM
...and the acts among the No Depression movement...

What in the HELL is a No Depression movement?

That's not some New Age defecation thing is it?