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royphil345
11-21-2006, 11:09 AM
That was pretty quick... No customs charges either... I thought maybe...

First impressions are mainly that it's way, way, way, way, way, way better than any cartridge I've ever owned before. I've been staying mostly near the $100.00 range. Even tried a Shure V-15VxMR...

It's my first low output moving coil, so I really couldn't say anything useful as far as comparing it to others or anything in the higher-priced spread... All I can say is that it completely kills and destroys any other MM or high output MC I've tried (haven't tried the Denons though). It's supposed to smooth out and produce more bass afer 20 hours or so... I couldn't care less... I'm LOVING it now.

So far I've tried a little rock, classical, and jazz. Completely satisfied with the 103R's performance on all. Played an old Living Stereo piano recording that always had considerable tracking distortion on louder passages no matter what cartridge I used, even the V-15... Sounded very clean, FAR more involving than ever before (that goes for EVERYTHING I've played so far). Not sure if it's because the cartridge tracks better, or if the old bearings in my old tonearm needed a heavier tracking cartridge to perform well. Everything sounds somehow more "stable", probably due to a better tonearm / cartridge match. So... Yes... For me, switching to a spherical stylus improved detail, air, tracking, etc... Who would have thought??? Was plenty dynamic for rock, with maybe a little extra energy in the midrange. The mids do not sound grainy or seem get in the way of detail or "life" on any style of music though. Just makes the music very easy to listen to. Jazz was very fun to listen to. Instruments sound very "alive". Big, spacious, 3-D soundstage. Drums sound amazing. Overall presentation just warm enough to be "comfortable". I've always preferred a warmer sound. Those who don't, or have one of those systems so sweet sounding that a little more detail, energy and zing usually improves things would probably be better off with something else.

That's about all I've got... Obviously, I couldn't be happier with this purchase. I was a little worried about paying this much for another cartridge I may not be thrilled with... Things worked out GREAT. HIGHLY recommended for anyone else using an older, higher-mass tonearm. Simply can't believe the difference. The music has "life" to it that I haven't heard on my system before. For the first time on my system, vinyl has truly gone from sounding different from digital to clearly better. Although, I did not spend as much on my digital source...

Thanks to jrhymeammo for making me check out the Denons!!! Was going to buy an Ortofon OM 20 Super. Would still like to know how those sound. Can't imagine being any happier though...

jrhymeammo
11-21-2006, 11:55 AM
Thanks RoyPhil. I've been waiting on your 103R review, and sounds like Denon struck again. Kinda sucks that it's not even a near match with my tonearm. I can't wait to hear your impression after this weekend (20+ hours) and how higher frequencies play out.
Never got the info on your phono stage.

Congratulation,

-JRA

basite
11-21-2006, 12:12 PM
be happy,
congrats,

peace,
Basite

royphil345
11-21-2006, 12:14 PM
I'm using the Rotel RQ-970BX. 100 ohm load for MC. 1st time I pushed the MC button on the back. Working good...

Like I said... Nothing I'm really even hoping for out of the break-in... The tonal balance is similar to my Shure M97xE, except without the hardness, grain and with much more life, air, and detail. The only weakness to my ear is that the lowest frequencies do roll off a bit just like with the Shure. Lowest bass can sound a little vague. Doesn't even bother me since it's what I'm used to. Certainly doesn't sound anemic. Dynamics and otherwise sweet sound make up for it as far as I'm concerned. If it gets even better... GREAT!!!

jrhymeammo
11-21-2006, 06:07 PM
If it gets even better... GREAT!!!

I'm almost certain that it will. I've only played with 4 carts prior to mine current Denon, but they all evolved after about 20 hours. Grado took longer, but that's another topic.

I'm not too certain on how Rotel specs their phono stage, but seems MC gain is set optimal for 0.21mv, while MM is for 2.5mv. If that is the case, then going from your M97xE to 103R, you lost 1db. I guess it's fair to say you havent noticed any less of sound pressure? Ah, who cares about all of that, does it sound great? And you answer was yes, so..
Congratulation.

-JRA

royphil345
11-21-2006, 06:58 PM
Gain seems about the same or very close. Dynamics better. Low level passages more involving. Just like you said about your Denon... Makes my other cartridges sound like "where's the music?".

Can also rock out to the capacity of my speakers now. My other cartridges started having feedback problems at just a little below "full blast". Must be the higher tracking force.

There is a little hum I noticed at very high levels with nothing playing. The Rotel phono stage is usually VERY quiet. Put on my other headshell with the Shure (without changing the MC switch) and it went away. Might be dirty connections or bad headshell leads. It's an old headshell I got off of an old parts table and never used. I'll have to break out the contact cleaner and experiment a little to see what's up with that. Might just be how it is. Hope it isn't too audible on recordings of quieter material in that case. Doesn't seem that bad...

jrhymeammo
11-21-2006, 07:17 PM
When I first installed my Denon cart, I also noticed a little hum in 1 channel. What happend to me was that pins on Denon were much larger than Grado, so I had to open it up a bit more. When I tried it again, I just did offer a solid connection to one of the ground(it was my right channel so musta been green...) After I reclamped it, hum was gone.

But it might just be from using MC setting with a bit more BG noise. Or just get a new headshell for $10 and just enjoy.

compared to your first post....sounds like you are starting to analyze your cart, man. Not good bra. LOL.

-JRA

royphil345
11-21-2006, 07:52 PM
compared to your first post....sounds like you are starting to analyze your cart, man. Not good bra. LOL.
-JRA


LOL... I hear you!!!... better stop before I need a more expensive cartridge...

Really, I've been listening to it on and off all day and can't find any significant fault with it. Frequency response may not be perfectly flat, but anything that sounded like an "edge" on my other carts sounds more like a slight "bulge" on this one at the very worst. And way more information is being brought out of the grooves at the same time. Very, very easy to just sit back and enjoy, and I do have trouble doing that sometimes. Doubt if I'd even benefit much from anything better on my rather modest system. Overall sound is exactly what I was hoping for. I kept coming back to my Shure for the natural / slightly warm tonal balance, but the slight hardness and lack of "life" was getting to me. The DL-103R sounds like the cartridge the Shure is trying to be.

jrhymeammo
11-21-2006, 08:13 PM
Good stuff, I think this is much more useful than any magazine reviews. That's why I hangout here.
Thanks again

JRA

jrhymeammo
11-22-2006, 08:50 PM
Im sorry for doing this, but I would like to ask you a question on your Denon.

Did you happen to use a cartirdge alignment tool by Turntablebasics or MoFo disc? I've used both to setup my DL-110. And it seems that cart/stylus point is about 2, 3mm too short. The way I had to install was that to ignore pointing that reference line at the pivot point located at the tonearm base. Since it was too short I had to turn those alignemnt discs just a hair. For that I guess my cartridge alignemnt is a bit skewed as it tracks toward innergroove. It shouldnt be affecting too much at all.
It's just that when I was reading an article on VTAF for Rega arms, I came this:


223 mm (8.78 inches) horizontal distance from the turntable spindle center to the tone arm pivot Note: Some cartridges, such as the Denon DL103, will not allow correct alignment if the mounting distance is set at 223 mm. A mounting distance of 219 mm is recommended.


That too me is an indication that stylus point on Denon carts are set slightly short compared to others.

I dont know if emrphine can confirm me on this with his setup. But if I'm reading into it correctly, that seems to be the case. Not sure if it affects you since have options with headshells.

please let me know if you have noticed any of this with some alignment tools you may have used.

Thanks

JRA

royphil345
11-22-2006, 11:43 PM
I used the Mo-Fi Geo Disc. The 103R is mounted VERY close to as far forward as it will go, but it worked out. I can see how some people would run into problems. Got lucky for once.

Think I'm gonna' have to do something about this hum though... Did a headshell swap and the hum remains. Doesn't seem to be caused by any cartridge / table interaction. Doesn't change at all depending on where I touch or move the tonearm etc... Think the Rotel phono stage might just suck for MC. I'm probably going to have to replace the Rotel with something else or sell the 103R and get the standard 103 version with higher output. Leaning towards selling the Rotel and trying something else. I like the 103R too much!!! Also, the hum from the Rotel on the MC setting does seem excessive at the same volume settings I was playing my MM at with very little noise, so I think that's where I'd put the blame. The signal to noise specs for the Rotel on the MC setting are -70db where the specs on other budget phono stages seem closer to -80db for MC. What I'm getting sounds worse than -70db.

I haven't really heard the hum over the music yet... But, it does seem excessive when the volume is set to around the max I use and nothing's playing. I want to record some vinyl to CD and I don't want that hum on my CDs either.

The really weird thing is that if I leave the Rotel set to MC and put in the headshell with the Shure MM, the hum gets much quieter. The weird part is that if I try to play a record that way, the Shure's output is also VERY quiet instead of louder on the MC setting. Seems the Rotel phono stage is somehow very reactive to cartridge properties on the MC setting and just kind of "funky". Further leads me to believe the Rotel is the problem and not the cartridge...

It's always something!!!... LOL

jrhymeammo
11-23-2006, 12:24 AM
I was wondering if you tried it with MM setting and see if you can hear the hum. It might be too low of gain to really hear it, but it might help to point out what the problem is. I've been looking at Battery powered phonostages for lower noise level. But it still doesnt make sense to me that you are hearing the hum, instead of distortion.
If vinyl didnt sound so good, I would've ditched long time ago....But thank goodness they do.

-JRA

royphil345
11-23-2006, 12:55 AM
I'm probably just going to pick up a Pro-Ject Phono Box or a NAD PP-2 and see what happens. The Rotel just behaves strangely when set to MC. I have a very strong feeling it's the culprit. The 103R probably deserves something better, but I wasn't planning on spending any more just yet. Was never crazy about the sound of the Rotel... Wouldn't be surprised if the Pro-Ject or NAD was an improvement. The Rotel is almost too warm sounding. Something a little brighter probably wouldn't hurt with the smoother cartridge I have now.

jrhymeammo
11-23-2006, 01:10 AM
RP. I'm not too sure about the Pro-Ject phono box. NoiseFloor seems pretty high.
From P-J site

Noise Floor (MM) 86dB (94dB-A weighted)
Noise Floor (MC) 68dB (75dB-A weighted)

Edit: You may benefit from a subsonic filter too

but I'm positive that you know what'll endup doing so, not a place for me I guess.
Best of luck to you buddy, and keep us informed

JRA

royphil345
11-23-2006, 01:48 AM
Yeah... I'm leaning towards the NAD PP-2.

Seems like lower noise specs. Less deviation from the RIAA curve...

Alot of people seemed to dislike the PP-1. Not much out there about the PP-2 at all. The design has been improved and I did find a couple of glowing consumer reviews out there...

Like I said... The Rotel just seems to act strangely when set to MC. Don't think it's performing to the specs. stated. Some sort of design flaw I think. Maybe picky about what cartridges it likes. I'm betting whatever I choose will be quieter. If not, I'll send it back and lose the shipping... Resale on the Rotel looks OK. Won't be out much money if I like the new preamp better.


...Leaning towards the PP-2... and hoping for the best...

You'd think with a name like NAD, they would never name one of their products PP...

EDIT: My big, old turntable is isolated pretty well. Never felt the need for a subsonic filter. The new cartridge seems very well behaved at the highest levels my system is capable of. The Shure had no problems with woofer "pumping", but did have a tendency towards feedback at very high levels (we're talking LOUD). Didn't bother me enough to try a filter. The hum I'm getting is your basic 60hz hum, so a subsonic filter wouldn't help.

Thanks for all the help and good wishes. I'm sure this will work out... Don't know if I'll have any money left by then...

ANOTHER EDIT: This looks like what I want... http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-Tube-Box-SE?sc=2&category=401... Unfortunately, I asked myself for it and I said no... not today... LOL... I should probably just live with the Rotel awhile longer, tighten my belt and save for a few months to get what I REALLY want. Patience isn't one of my stronger points though...

jrhymeammo
11-25-2006, 12:54 PM
ANOTHER EDIT: This looks like what I want... http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject...2&category=401... Unfortunately, I asked myself for it and I said no... not today... LOL... I should probably just live with the Rotel awhile longer, tighten my belt and save for a few months to get what I REALLY want. Patience isn't one of my stronger points though...

Ahhhhhhh man!!! I had that up for a sale 2-3 weeks ago. I ended up selling it for alot lower than I wanted to($300). I would've been happy to sell it to you for that price. I would just look for a used non-SE model on the Phono'gon. The only difference I've been told is that SE uses 12AX7EH instead. But who knows, maybe you got one coming in mail already.

I can't stop looking at EAR 834P Chrome bc I'm retarded.

jra

royphil345
11-25-2006, 02:39 PM
I looked at the other one. Specs looked considerably better on the SE model. All worried about noise now... Though, I still think probably the Rotel just acts weird when set to MC, doesn't like my cartridge and just about anything else should work out better for me. Nobody seems to have noise problems using any of the other popular budget phono stages for MC from what I've read.

Sorry I missed out on buying your Tube Box. Would probably have pulled the trigger at that price or a little more!!! Oh well... Maybe it wasn't the cat's pajamas if you got rid of it?

I've been wanting to transfer some vinyl to CD for awhile now and have been holding off because I still wasn't happy with my cartridge. Didn't want to waste my time making more recordings I'd want to redo eventually. Now, the hum thing... so....

I'm done waiting. I went ahead and ordered a NAD PP-2 from Audio Advisor. I thought about it and I just can't see paying more for a phono stage than my turntable and cartridge cost together. I liked the way they measured specs. with a cartridge plugged in. Read a couple reviews of people saying they liked it better than some pricier stuff. Alot of people don't like the Rotel I have now, so the NAD may just be a step up. The Rotel does seem overly warm in the mids. Seems like they boost the highest frequencies a bit to keep it from sounding too "closed in". Does seem to cause a little grain in the sound. The slight recess between the mids and highs seems to help detail, but at the expense of "attack". I tend to like components that just sound flat and neutral, rather than ones that try to sound better than they are by using EQ tricks. If the NAD comes a little closer to that, I'll be happy. My system probably isn't good enough to appreciate some of the finer points of a more expensive phono stage anyway... Though, I must say it's not sounding bad at all with the Denon DL-103R. Definitely much more musical and involving.

I'll let you know how things work out when the NAD shows up... Hopefully this thread will have a happy ending!!!

jrhymeammo
11-25-2006, 02:57 PM
I've read some great reviews on PP-1, so if PP-2 is any close to that, you outta be singing. We'll be waiting again,

JRA

emorphien
11-26-2006, 08:49 AM
i'm using the NAD PP-2 on my DL-110 and have been pretty happy with it. I'd like to try other preamps but given budget constraints I have no complaints!

I have it set to MM since the DL-110 is a reasonably high output MC cartridge. I forget what all the changes from the PP-1 to the PP-2 are, I know improved capacitors are in there but that's all I can recall at this point! For $120 or so I can't complain.

royphil345
11-26-2006, 02:25 PM
Thanks!!! Not many opinions about the PP-2 on the web. The few that I have found were very positive though and placed the PP-2 above the PP-1 and even a few pricier phono stages.

The differences from the PP-1 seem considerable. They went to a 24V circuit from 15V, which is more like what the pricier brands are using. The MC capability was added. Some closer tolerance parts were added, improving the specs some.

emorphien
11-26-2006, 02:45 PM
Thanks!!! Not many opinions about the PP-2 on the web. The few that I have found were very positive though and placed the PP-2 above the PP-1 and even a few pricier phono stages.

The differences from the PP-1 seem considerable. They went to a 24V circuit from 15V, which is more like what the pricier brands are using. The MC capability was added. Some closer tolerance parts were added, improving the specs some.
Agreed, I don't think you can go wrong with it at this point. Particularly if you don't have anything better in mind right now. You can always upgrade it and I may some day. For the moment it matches my C321BEE and C542 nicely.

It was more or less completely coincidental that I bought the PP-2. It got great reviews and the price is hard to fuss about. Matching my components turned out to just be a bonus.

jrhymeammo
11-26-2006, 03:08 PM
I dont know much about tweaking, but seems like upgrading caps seem to be the first step in preamps.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0901/phonomena.htm

NAD sounds like a real sleeper.

JRA

royphil345
11-29-2006, 03:54 AM
Well... The little NAD PP-2 got here today. Was surprised... It was still listed as "ready to pack" at Audio Advisor. I was starting to get impatient...

The first thing I did was pull the Rotel out of my rack where it sat on top of a DVD player so I could easily hook up the NAD and compare the two. This action completely got rid of that nasty hum... and my real "need" for a new phono stage. The higher gain on the MC setting just made the unit more prone to pick up hum from other components (power supply) that were too close. Oh well... Live and learn... LOL

So... Now the Rotel and NAD had about the exact same levels of background noise. Just a tad bit more than I was getting on the Rotel's MM seting (dead silent), but nothing I would ever be concerned about... I'm guessing that dividing the gain into two stages using a separate MC step-up might stress the preamps less and be even quieter. I'm always learning... But, like I said, noise was not bad at all using either phono stage now...

Still glad I ordered the NAD PP-2 though...

After comparing the two phono stages it became very clear that I was exactly right about the Rotel having a recessed upper-midrange. I started noticing this long ago. Any cartridge that also had slightly recessed mids doubled this effect and sounded horrible in my system (Shure V15VxMR, Audio Technica AT440ML). I appreciated their "openness" over the Shure M97xE, but they just ended up sounding far too thin.

The Rotel's style of presentation is not without benefit. It seems to clean up the sound, reduce surface noise, mask any tracking distortion and at first create an illusion of more depth and detail. Ambience is exaggerated. Upper bass stands out some because of the suckout in the mids and may be boosted slightly to compensate, but it's not really "warm" in the mids as I've been describing it. In the end... The Rotel's presentation makes imaging a little vague and messes with the rhythm of the music due to it's EQ "tricks". The leading edges of notes are vague and too soft unless the tonearm is adjusted in a way that make the music sound too thin overall.

The presentation of the NAD is almost the exact opposite of the Rotel in a way... Listening to the NAD I get the feeling the frequency response is closer to flat. Possibly on the bright side, but in a way where there are no noticable humps or dips anywhere. The NAD sounded a bit harsh and "congested" at first. Not much depth to the soundstage. Surface noise was a little more apparent than usual. I adjusted my tonearm some. I've notice that with the Rotel, I've been tracking my cartridges a little heavier to minimise the suckout in the mids. Sound got much better. Better sense of rhythm than the Rotel offered. Imaging made more sense. Bass not weak by any means. Leading edges of notes no longer AWOL. On the negative side... Maybe a little "sterile" sounding. Soundstage isn't huge. Frequency extension may not be the best, there's a very slight "congestion" to the sound, which is why I said it's kind of the opposite of the Rotel. It shows it's budget gear limitations where the Rotel tries to hide them (at the expense of accuracy to my ear). My "perfect" phono stage would be one with the NAD's more neutral presentation and just a smidge of refinement. All in all, the NAD just sounds more accurate and musical to my ear than the Rotel though, and I'll be putting the Rotel on eBay. It's very likely the NAD will "loosen up" after a little break-in. In that case... I will probably not ever look into replacing it. A tweak or two may do some good here. I could imagine a power supply upgrade opening things up a bit. Power supply looks a little small compared to what I've seen with even less expensive phono stages (100mA). I found a cheap 400mA 24V power supply for a HP printer or something on eBay shortly after ordering the NAD, but didn't grab it... Maybe I will...

Was that enough to read about two budget phono stages??? Too much time on my hands I guess... LOL... Funny how the hum left the Rotel when I moved it though... Figured you guys would get a good laugh out of that...

Anyhow... Things worked out well in the end... Very happy with my upgrades. Got rid of the hum. Love the Denon cart!!!

jrhymeammo
11-29-2006, 07:32 AM
NICE!!! Thanks for that detailed review RP.

Getting a 400mA wal-wart PS might help. But I'll say you'll be pleased with your new NAD after 20+ hours.
Happy listening,

JRA

squeegy200
11-29-2006, 10:20 AM
Good comparison and write up. I've been curious of the PP2 since I did enjoy the built-in phono stage of my old NAD 3020 many years ago.

I've read many good reviews of the NAD external phono stage.

Im curious if you've tried different interconnect cables. Ive read that length and manufacturer can make a difference. I've noticed some audible changes when using different interconnects. I don't know if its placebo or actual but its worth a try

Im glad your new phono stage is in place and you've solved your background noise issues.

royphil345
11-29-2006, 08:02 PM
Good point Squeegy...

I have definitely heard differences using different interconnects. There are some I stopped using because of an effect similar to what I heard in the Rotel phono stage. More extended highs and lows at the expense of some midrange. The ones I use now are all very basic. Copper, many fine strands, not twisted, foil shield. They seem to sound just a tad more open than "in the box" cables, without having any dramatic effects.

Something that slightly favors the frequency extremes might work really well with the NAD. Might make the NAD sound a little more like the Rotel did, but to a lesser extent. Might soften the sound of the NAD a bit without overdoing it...

Thanks for the kind words guys!!!