End of the Century

[nobody]

Finally saw this Ramones documentary last night. Really great, interesting movie with lots of fantastic old footage. Anyone else really enjoy this movie? Anyone else think Johnny is pretty much a dik?

I liked what someone said about how throughout their career other bands and styles would come and go, changing with the years, but the Ramones were always the Ramones. Sometimes there is somethign to be said for a band to just do what they do well and stick at it. I think for a band to be able to do so successfully, they need to have a very distinctive niche like the Ramones created, but when a band comes along with a sound all their own like the Ramones did, I see nothing wrong with them sticking to it.

[BradH]

Anyone else really enjoy this movie?

I was totally blown away when I saw it. I don't think you'd have to be a Ramones fan to enjoy it either. I don't remember seeing any other band documentary this good. Yeah, Johnny was an @sshole but like that guy from Blondie was saying, without him there wouldn't be a Ramones. But gawd, what a dikwad he was. I've never heard of any other band member rivalry this bad. But I kind of admire him for sticking to that singular vision. It hurt them in the US market but, heck, they were selling out soccer stadiums in Brazil.

[SlumpBuster]

I actually own this DVD and find it rather depressing. They are all just so desparate for some kind of recognition.

Johnny's confusion is frustrating. As a socially conservative punk rocker, Johnny essentially rails against a significant portion of his core audience.

In the special features, Marky is just determined to convince you that he is some underappreciated drummer virtuoso.

Then there is poor misguided Dee Dee Ramone a.k.a. Dee Dee King. As if Dee Dee's stint as a clueless hip hop artist wasn't bad enough, his time as in GG Allens backup band was thankfully not addressed. While Dee Dee was only associated with GG for a couple of weeks, it really is a lapse in judgment on a Mel Gibson or Kramer kind of level. Anyone who had anything to do with GG is automatically suspect. It's like saying you only appeared on one track of a Screwdriver record. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skrewdriver
Just pathetic.

But, I really feel bad for Joey. As good and influential as the Ramones were, Joey would have, should have, and could have fronted a much better band. I honestly think if he hadn't been surrounded by such poisonous personalities he could have been like Freddy Mercury big.

Finally, for my money the better punk documentary is "Another State of Mind" featuring Youth Brigade, Social Distortion, and Minor Threat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_State_of_Mind
The idea behind early punk was that you didn't necessarily have to be a skilled musician. But there is a pivotal scene where Mike Ness - lead singer and writer for Social D- is sitting on some stairs hammering out a melody and using "Da da da das" for lyrics. The song goes on to become a staple of the Social D set list for the next two decades. You see the genesis of the song captured in the movie, and witness what happened in the 80s when musicianship collided head on with punk rock. Mike Ness and Social D go on to produce a catalog of records that will stand up against any, I say again, any rock act of the last 20 years. Much better than a bunch of "what if" Ramones sitting around.

[MindGoneHaywire]

I thought it was very well done, something that did justice to a very odd story in a world of odd stories behind rock bands.

I never saw a gig with Tommy, but I always thought Richie Ramone was the best drummer for the Ramones--and it was good to see that, as the shot of adrenaline he provided had been rarely mentioned until this movie. However, Marky Ramone was by far the most accomplished instrumentalist ever in this band. Underappreciated drummer virtuoso? Absolutely. Listen to the first Richard Hell & the Voidoids & you'll hear some of what he was capable of, but never brought to the Ramones due to the nature of their song structures. The guy's a monster behind the kit.

You could make a laundry list of Dee Dee's foibles. Playing an impromptu acoustic set one night, for which he was completely unprepared, without a shirt & looking like death warmed over. Being arrested for buying pot in Washington Square Park. Dating the woman who tried to cut Arthur Kane's finger off. Hell, he was trying to be a pot dealer there for awhile. The guy was mentally ill. His association with GG was short-lived, and, like just about anything else you could drag up about stuff he did after leaving the Ramones, wasn't really worth mentioning. As for GG...he's kind of an obvious target. But I used to know the guy whose apartment he died in, and he was pretty normal, all things considered. Difficult to imagine someone being friends with that guy who actually had all his marbles, but I think not everyone in GG's world, oddly enough, was a complete wacko.

For me the pivotal scene in Another State Of Mind is when it slowly dawns on you that Mike Ness, clearly the most talented and charismatic individual on that bus, is a selfish jerk who is always partying & hanging with chicks, but never all that interested in helping out carrying equipment or doing what he could've to have made things any better as the ill-fated tour entered its final stages. Youth Brigade ends up riding back to California in the back of a truck, and on a trip where the bands & crew were penniless, Ness conveniently has a ticket home. Very telling. A good watch, but a large part of it is the Minor Threat footage. Much better is The Decline Of Western Civilisation, Part 1.

But comparing either with the Ramones documentary is a little off-base, as they document scenes, as opposed to being a biography of one entity. I thought the Ramones thing was up there with The Filth & the Fury, with both of those being probably a notch above Westway To The World. But that one suffers a bit since there's so much great footage in Rude Boy...which is otherwise mostly boring, of course. I just got my hands on We Jam Econo, and I'm eager to pop that one in, but the one I really want to see made would be a documentary of the Minneapolis scene from the early & mid-80s--the Replacements, Husker Du, etc. Soul Asylum. Those bands were the big scene of the time and they could cover Prince as well, of course. But since most notable punk rock bands from before & since have captured some recognition, and this scene still generates a big collective 'huh?' in the mass imagination, I won't hold my breath waiting on it.

[SlumpBuster]

For me the pivotal scene in Another State Of Mind is when it slowly dawns on you that Mike Ness, clearly the most talented and charismatic individual on that bus, is a selfish jerk who is always partying & hanging with chicks, but never all that interested in helping out carrying equipment or doing what he could've to have made things any better as the ill-fated tour entered its final stages. Youth Brigade ends up riding back to California in the back of a truck, and on a trip where the bands & crew were penniless, Ness conveniently has a ticket home. Very telling.

Asolutely! Ness seems more in the classic rock star vein. Beers, hot chicks, chopped cars, ect. rather than the DIY scene of the others. That's part of what I mean. Its a snap shot of what punk looks like when people who can actually write and play show up and start hanging around. At that point Ness' future held some great songs and terrible addiction.

As for Marky's drumming, I agree. Its not that I doubt his skills, its just that he seems somewhat desparate for the audience to come to the same conclusion. The bigger implication of such an additude is that he potentially looks down on the Ramones material. "Yeah, the Ramones stuff is okay, but you should see what I can do on a double kick drum 24 piece kit. That's where I really shine." Then what are you doing playing in the Ramones?

[SlumpBuster]

Oh, and that plane ticket materializing out of thin air is classic. Not only did he leave everyone else behind, he left his own band behind. I can just imagine the whiney nasal voice "Mom, this tour thing isn't working out... and the bus smells. Can you send me a plane ticket?" Mike Ness is Eric Cartman. :D

[nobody]

Yeah, while Johnny is a dik, he was one of the biggest keys to one of my favorite bands, so musically, I'll give him plenty of credit. And, his politics are opposed to much of his audience, but so what. The Ramones weren't a political band for the most part. I'm not gonna make anyone pass my personal political pop quiz before I can like the music they make.

I liked Another State of Mind and I'm a pretty big Social Distortion fan, but I don't think they compare to the Ramones. The Ramones started this whole thing and for that alone, they get credit. And, yeah Social Distortion's records are really good. But, the Ramones are every bit as strong, in my and likely most minds stronger. Social Distortion put a little twist on something already rolling down the hill when they jumped on. The Ramones built the truck and pushed it all the way to the top so bands like Social Distortion and the rest of the hardcore groups could have soemthing to ride.

And, while sure, the Ramones would have liked recognition, Social Distortion did change their sound in big way, sign to a big label and sell quite a few records. I'd wager to say Ball & Chain got played on teh radio more than any song the Ramones released. So, lets not act like Social Distortion is all about the art and the Ramones the only ones wanting to move some product. And, J makes a good point about Ness getting special treatment all the way even back then. Shine a light in there as close as the one shown in End of the Century and I'd be surprised if all is rosy over the years.

Was De Dee ****ed up? Of course. This is a punk rock band. You think they all should be mentally stable, healthy, logical people? Go listen to Bad Religion. The guy may have been wacked out, but he was the principle songwriter for a band that has an unmatched catalog of catchy, memorable songs within their genre. He did more than to mold punk rock and rock music as a whole than the whole of Social Distortion together...I'll even toss in Minor Threat. Really, it would be hard to find a single fella more important to the development of punk...and certainly no single band did more. They energized and got the New York scene rolling...went to England and inspired the scene over there...and toured constantly bringing the music to every corner of the globe.

Simply put, the Ramones were kings of punk rock. Ask anyone from Joe Strummer to Mike Ness to any other punk rocker you wanna find. They started it. They perfected it. The did it for decades.

Oh yeah...and Skrewdriver actually had a pretty good first album out before they turned into Nazi idiots. GG was an idiot, but the legend is larger than the reality in many ways.

Anyone ever see Dee Dee's Chinese Dragons band? I think they played a bit in the late 80s. He basically got a group of guys together...including a gangly Joey clone of a singer...and played Ramones covers and new songs that sounded pretty much just the same. Don't know if they put any records out. Fun to watch though.

We Jam Econo's a good watch. Lots of live footage on there too. Another of my favorite all-time bands.

[BradH]

I actually own this DVD and find it rather depressing. They are all just so desparate for some kind of recognition.

My impression was that they were frustrated because their sales didn't measure up to their influence in the U.S.


Johnny's confusion is frustrating. As a socially conservative punk rocker, Johnny essentially rails against a significant portion of his core audience.

Oh yeah? When did this happen? Never, unlike the wretched witch Chrissie Hynde who, dressed in black leather, adomishes her audience for not being vegetarians. (I saw people get out of their seats and leave the venue in 1984 when she started b!tching about Van Halen or something.) But Johnny's personal politics was just that, personal and not onstage that I'm aware of.


But, I really feel bad for Joey. As good and influential as the Ramones were, Joey would have, should have, and could have fronted a much better band.

I don't feel bad for Joey, he made his decision. Yeah, he coulda shoulda woulda but he didn't. His solo career wouldn't have been a punk band oriented thing anyway, probably more like a Phil Specter thing. Probably with Phil Specter.