newbie questions and advice please

[halfadeck]

Hi all i have a dennon 3802 that I blew so I'm gonna upgrade. I decided to go with seperates and have a couple of questions. Would I be able to use an av reciever say a yamaha 2700 for a preamp? And if so what will make the sound the power amp or the reciever? I don't know much about seperates and that is bugging me I dont want to go spend a couple of grand on a power amp if the reciever is gonna dictate the sound. Also i would like opinions on power amps I'm looking at a rotel 1095, adcom 7807, earthquake cineova 5 channel, b&k 7250 series 2,sunfirecinenama grand,and a couple of different parasound amps. I would love to have an anthem p5 but cant find one in my price range. I'm running klipsch legend series speakers and my room is 22x17 with a 19 foot ceiling so I loose alot of sound going up so I need the wattage well I think anyways. I really like all kinds of music but really want to be able to seriously rock out some Korn, Zepplin or old Rush, but I don't want to kill my movie experience either. Sorry for such newbie questions but I just don't know alot about power amps. Also if anyone has these amps or other opinions would really appreciate the info and opinions. I 've been racking my brain for 3 weeks now on this and everytime I decide I read something about a different amp and then that leads to another and another LOL please someone stop the room from spinning.

[jrhymeammo]

As far as sound goes Preamps will dictate more than switching Poweramps. But that does not mean you wont get different sound by using different amps. They will have great effects, but as I said preamp first.

Without listening to your system, ooks like you a bright system. Yamaha is probably the brightest receiver that I know, and yes you can use that as preamp. I've never had an oppotunity to listen to Klipsch;s Legend lineups, but in general they are not afraid to go bright. Going with rotel 1095 with your Klipsch, you can expect to ROCK THE HOUSE!!!!!! That will be crazy loud for sure. If you can afford to get a preamp and poweramp, I would start looking for a pre-amp first, then decide what amp to go with.

[paul_pci]

As far as your basic question goes, yes whatever you use as a preamp/surround processor (whether a receiver or dedicated unit) that is the piece that will be doing the decoding and processing and the amplifier is just that: it amplifies an already processed signal. Now, as to whether receivers are up to the job, as you question, I would say that many current receivers do a great job of processing audio signals, although that is not a universally accepted conclusion. But if you want to get into a dedicated surround processsor, then we're talking about a significan budget increase. Then the final question you should ask yourself is: do you have speakers that would benefit from the equipment upgrade. For instance, I love my system, I'd love to go with separates, but I think right now, such an upgrade would be lost on my speakers.

[halfadeck]

Thanks for the replies. I kinda figured the preamp processed the sound but wanted to make sure. I know the japenese receivers tend to be brighter like yamaha and dennon but was wondering if a receiver can do just as good of job as a dedicated preamp. Here is what I was leaning to earthquake cinenova and Marantz sr8100. As for my speakers whether they would benefit I don't know they will be the next thing in my ht system to upgrade. I want to build a higher end system in the next few years but the first peice has to be my sound receiver since mine is not working properly any more. There is just so much out there its making my head spin and all the while I cant rock out my new tool cd :( Thanks again for the replies and please keep the info flowing.

[Mr Peabody]

I think you missed the point. Yes, HT receivers and separate processors both do surround decoding but that's not all to producing sound quality. A lot of it is a separate processor will have better parts and better analog circuits which will give you better sound quality, especially appreciated when listening to music. I've had a couple different processors and I think the better preamp processors even have an appreciable difference on home theater. It stands to reason that if a preamp is able to have a better/best sound stage presentation, one over another, that it can have the same effect for movie sound presentation.

If you have to have a system that is unbalanced, it is better to have the best components up stream, meaning your source, preamp and on down from there. If you lose sound quality, or don't maintain it, upstream, nothing you can do down stream will help bring it back. I hope you can follow me. For instance, if you run a signal through a receiver preamp and it degrades it, or not able to reproduce it adequately, then no amp you use will be able to either. A better amp is able to better utilize what signal it gets but the signal will always be limited by the preamp, and even more limited if you don't have a good source signal to begin with.

I am split on your choice on power amps, part of me says if you like to rock, go with the Adcom or Parasound for the slam, on the other hand, if you plan to keep the Klipsch for a while your ears may appreciate the warmth of B&K. I find Rotel a little laid back and not familiar with Earthquake. B&K, Rotel and Adcom all offer reasonably priced pre/pro's. If you went with a same brand pre and power amp you may get better system synergy.

If you want the room to slow down, go do some listening. The best would be if you found a place that let you bring some equipment home to audition on your speakers and room.

[46minaudio]

Thanks for the replies. I kinda figured the preamp processed the sound but wanted to make sure. I know the japenese receivers tend to be brighter like yamaha and dennon but was wondering if a receiver can do just as good of job as a dedicated preamp. Here is what I was leaning to earthquake cinenova and Marantz sr8100. As for my speakers whether they would benefit I don't know they will be the next thing in my ht system to upgrade. I want to build a higher end system in the next few years but the first peice has to be my sound receiver since mine is not working properly any more. There is just so much out there its making my head spin and all the while I cant rock out my new tool cd :( Thanks again for the replies and please keep the info flowing.
First off your speakers and room will have the most effect on how your system sounds.2nd the Klipsch you have will not require a huge megadollar amp.They play very loud with little power.3rd((((I know the japenese receivers tend to be brighter like yamaha and dennon))))Thats a flopping lie.The Yamaha happens to be one of the best units for Quailty Control.Try not get caught up in alot of the BS in some of these audio forums.
4th((((but was wondering if a receiver can do just as good of job as a dedicated preamp.))))Yep sure can.Fact Rotel made "and maybe still does" a PreAmp with the exact same preamp section as used in their reciever.Charged $200 extra for just the preamp.IMO get the 2700.If you feel you need the extra power then add it.

[halfadeck]

hey 46 I appolagize for the comment about japanese receivers being brighter I should of said I heard but just about everyone I talked to said that. As for my dennon that I can say was a bit bright. With my ceiling and my listening area opening up to the kitchen I lose alot of sound. So when I really rock out I'm turned up to about 109 110 ( i beleive thats why my denon didnt last but 4 yrs but she gave it hell) so I did want to go up in watts a bit. Now if I had a 9 foot celing I couldn't listen at that level I'd be walking around with blood coming from my ears. But one thing I like with my big celing is when you do have the power it sounds unbelievable like in a concert hall. I ordered an eartquake and an outlaw 990 should be rocking by next weekend. Thanks again every one for the advice and I apolagize for my comment 46 I will only write what I know as a fact from now on.

[46minaudio]

hey 46 I appolagize for the comment about japanese receivers being brighter I should of said I heard but just about everyone I talked to said that. As for my dennon that I can say was a bit bright. With my ceiling and my listening area opening up to the kitchen I lose alot of sound. So when I really rock out I'm turned up to about 109 110 ( i beleive thats why my denon didnt last but 4 yrs but she gave it hell) so I did want to go up in watts a bit. Now if I had a 9 foot celing I couldn't listen at that level I'd be walking around with blood coming from my ears. But one thing I like with my big celing is when you do have the power it sounds unbelievable like in a concert hall. I ordered an eartquake and an outlaw 990 should be rocking by next weekend. Thanks again every one for the advice and I apolagize for my comment 46 I will only write what I know as a fact from now on.
No need to apolagize.Its been on these forums for years.True Story, Ive read where buyers went to 2 locations using two different speakers,came back ad posted how the Yamaha was brighter than some other model.The Outlaw is a fine unit,If I recall it will do BM for 5.1 multi ch inputs,Plus a very flexible xover config.

[Rock789]

I would love to have an anthem p5 but cant find one in my price range. I'm running klipsch legend series speakers and my room is 22x17 with a 19 foot ceiling so I loose alot of sound going up so I need the wattage well I think anyways.

whats your price range??? a statement p5 is a lot of amp!
you would probably be more than happy with the MCA 50 which is a lot less $$$ than the p5...
find a dealer who will let ya borrow the amp and try with your speakers....

[spasticteapot]

If you want a few bucks for your blown amp, feel free to E-mail me.

[halfadeck]

I went with the eartquake and the outlaw 990 both new and from authorized dealer. I already got the pre/amp the earthquake should be here in a day or 2 I'll let you know how it sounds.

[jrhymeammo]

Yamaha happens to be one of the best units for Quailty Control.

wait, wait WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT A MINUTE!!!

Maybe someone her can help me out. Bare with me cuz JRA gotta brain smaller than a size of his fist. I recall someone posting a thread about Yamaha in Cali receiving one of the worst QC ratings. I think they were rated D. Just incase members dont already got it figured out, JRA gets confused very easily so......

ahhh.......jra

[basite]

indeed, i'm with JRA

yamaha is too bright, and the watts delivered by a yammie might look impressive, but they aren't, in fact, my old 42 watt amp blows away any yammie out there.

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not a Yamaha fan but they are not bright compared to other Japanese receivers. My impression of Yamaha is that they are on the warm side of the crowd. Our impressions may be different depending on sources and speakers used. But even on speakers like Polk, older Infinity and MB Quart home the Yamaha sounded warm, soft.

[46minaudio]

wait, wait WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT A MINUTE!!!

I recall someone posting a thread about Yamaha in Cali receiving one of the worst QC ratings. I think they were rated D.
ahhh.......jra
Please post a link...

[GMichael]

wait, wait WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT A MINUTE!!!

Maybe someone her can help me out. Bare with me cuz JRA gotta brain smaller than a size of his fist. I recall someone posting a thread about Yamaha in Cali receiving one of the worst QC ratings. I think they were rated D. Just incase members dont already got it figured out, JRA gets confused very easily so......

ahhh.......jra

All the research I've done suggests that Yamaha has the fewest returns of anyone. But that doesn't mean that they sound the best. They just break down the least. I do enjoy mine though.

[kexodusc]

Yamaha and Denon suffer from a lot of bad internet reviews and criticism just because they're the top 2 dogs in the receiver market at $500-$1500, and non-owners tend to target them for ego reasons. I wouldn't hesitate to own either.

First. Go around to any hi-fi shop and ask about Yamaha's build quality. I did just that a few years ago when replacing my Marantz (after 2 Marantz units crapped out on me). If the late ar.com member Woodman (who ran such a shop) was here today (RIP) he'd lay it out straight. Yamaha is 2nd to none in quality in that price range. They're not perfect, but they're consistently pretty close. They're known for this. I've been here awhile too, and we've seen Denons, Marantz, H/K's, even NAD's come and go with a slew of QC problems from time to time. Yamaha's corporate philosophy is quality first...they do it as well as anyone.

That said, the difference in QC these days is pretty negligible across those brands - if your amp craps out, chances are it'll happen under warranty, very soon. Statistically, QC is non-issue, if something happens, it was just your turn for bad Karma. Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances. I don't pay attenction to QC rating sources, they have a situational bias - happy consumers rarely take the time to tell how happy they are while angry consumers often go on tirades. We've all been here awhile. How many Denon, Marantz, H/K problem threads have we seen? There's been a few even this month. Now, how many Yamaha problem threads?

2nd. A few years back when Yamaha rebuilt their platform, they totally redesigned the pre-amp end. This was the end of the "bright" Yamaha era. They're very neutral now. I can't tell the difference between a Denon and Yamaha model of the same price/quality now. H/K's a bit different. The Yamaha is bright BS is a leftover sentiment of a previous era dating back to the 1980's. Yamaha traditionally did have bright sounding gear.

These guys all measure their amps tonality. It's a fact that flat measuring amps sound relatively bright to the shaped responses of a lot of higher end amps, especially the distortion filled tube variety. Some people like this apparent "warmth". Some don't. But Yamaha and Denon aren't glaringly bright receivers these days by any stretch. Even if "bright" was bad. I attend a lot of live shows, and live shows are anything BUT "warm" sounding.


yamaha is too bright, and the watts delivered by a yammie might look impressive, but they aren't, in fact, my old 42 watt amp blows away any yammie out there.

Yamaha's wattage ratings are no more dishonest than those of H/K, Denon, NAD, Onkyo, Marantz or any other receiver in the market they compete in. I've got enough links to published measurments to support this statement if we really want to go there. I'll give anyone a chance to provide the same, suggesting evidence to the contrary. Otherwise I'm calling BS on this statement.

FYI, I actually stress tested my previous RX-V1400 Yamaha receiver maybe 2 years ago now - you can search the forums and find the thread I posted it in. It had no problem delivering 60 watts/channel under .5% distortion with 7 channels driven. Probably could have gone higher, but I was afraid of frying it so I didn't push it. I had no way of measuring the actual THD (but this test only measured whether the distorion was over .5%, or not).The newer models do better. A similarly priced Denon tested by S&V mag with only 6 channels driven (AVR-2803 back in Apr 03 edition did no better). And I won't bring up how useless the "all channels driven" test is in real terms anyway. When these brands of receivers say 100 watts, they'll deliver it in practical applications. The 10- 15 watt differences between say 60 and 75 are negligible and won't contribute 1 dB of loudness.

In closing, these companies are fierce competitors in a saturated market. Price generally reflects comparability, with a few subtle differences between models. Nothing major. If it was, we'd all hear it and the best brand would have most of the market share. Such isn't the case. Brand loyalty often makes the difference in product selection (it has in my last 2 purchases after the aformentioned Marantz problems). I say go for the best deal on a unit that does everything you need it to do instead of wasting your time debating over arbitrary, unmeasurable, speculative differences.