did some more looking at turntables

[3db]

My choices of turntables that I'm looking at its now;

Project Debut
Rega P1 (new turntable from Rega)
Goldring 1.2

The Rega and Goldrinng use MDF platters. Does that make them quiter than an aluminum platter as the Project table is using? Christmas is coming soon for me *G*

[jrhymeammo]

I wasnt going to reply to this post, cuz seems like when I post not many people jumps in. Sadly, Analog lovers here are going away to other sites. WHERE ARE YOU GUYS!!!!!!!

Do you currently own a TT? If you do, I was going to say you may just want to get a new cart, or upgrade your phono stage.
I'm a strong believer in VTA. With REGA decks you can get a spacer but I think you are only limited to 2 or 4mm adjustment. I'm not sure if you can use one with REGA-like arm on Goldring. Also not sure about their new P1. It doesnt seem to have VTA adjustment as usual. I really dont understnad that at all. I guess by not having that option, it makes the entire deck/arm package more rigid. I've read alot about how MDF platter makes dead sounds. And metal platter is supposed to pickup alot of external sound. I sprayed my Pro-Ject platter with sound eliminating compound. If you can just ditch that felt mat and get a decent mat, you should be fine. I'm curious about P1 though. I seriously doubt that REGA would offer anything sub-par. But REGA was losing their market share because of less expensive ProJect decks. They could've easily rushed in to get a good chunck

[royphil345]

The Project actually uses a steel platter which I would definitely shy away from. Many disagree... but that's the way I see it. Steel is just too good at transmitting magnetic energy. Could transmit motor noise or interact with the cartridge (some people won't even use magnetic mounting screws) and would almost have to cause at least some noise or loss of detail. Some moving coil cartridges with large magnets couldn't even be used with the steel platter.

Seems an aluminum platter is just too expensive for the very competitive entry-level models. The MDF platters on the entry-level models are usually a little light and may cause wow and flutter numbers to be a little higher. I would choose MDF as the lesser of two evils though. The next level up from most manufacturers seems to be an aluminum or weighted / larger MDF platter.

I thought the Music Hall table had an aluminum platter until I saw this note when looking at Denon cartridges at needledoctor.com

"Unfortunately Denon cartridges will not work work on the Music Hall 2.1 turntable because of the high powered magnet within the cartridge and the metal platter of the record player."

Turns out the platter is an alloy which is magnetic.

The Goldring and Rega look pretty darn similar... Probably would just come down to which cartridge you want... the Goldring Electra or the Ortofon 5E... The Goldring would probably sound a little more lively, perhaps lacking some refinement. The Ortofon... a little smoother, perhaps lacking some detail or "energy".

Good luck!!! Hope whatever you choose works out well for you!!!

[jrhymeammo]

I thought the Music Hall table had an aluminum platter until I saw this note when looking at Denon cartridges at needledoctor.com


Turns out the platter is an alloy which is magnetic.



Wow, I guess I like that magnetic sound on my Xpression, which also employs aluminum alloy platter.
That is very odd that they only focused on 2.1 table.

[royphil345]

Most platters advertised as "alloy" are non-magnetic. Tricky on the part of Music Hall if you ask me...

With a MC cartridge containing a large magnet and a magnetic platter... things can get so bad that tracking force is actually effected.

Steel can be blended into alloys as well as aluminum...

[jrhymeammo]

Also how could it just apply to Denon. If what they are saying is true, then it should be affecting just about every cartridges out there, may just not as much.

Sorry about this 3db. Let's get back to the original topic of this thread.

-JRA

[royphil345]

I don't know if they have that warning with other cartridges... Just saw it when I was looking at the Denons...http://www.needledoctor.com/Online-Store/Denon-Cartridges Yes, I did end up buying my DL-103 from Japan to save money...

Probably not many people put MC cartridges on the entry-level tables, so they don't run into the problem often. They probably didn't even think about the other cartridges they sell with strong magnets, or the other tables they sell with a magnetic platter... Just addressed the issue they actually ran into...

And... Yes, I would have a hard time believing the steel platters aren't having some sort of effect on any cartridge. That's why I don't recommend them. Historically, steel was just never used to make platters on high-quality turntables. Think there was a reason for it and some of today's manufacturers seem to have forgotten. Think Rega and Goldring know what they're doing...

[3db]

I wasnt going to reply to this post, cuz seems like when I post not many people jumps in. Sadly, Analog lovers here are going away to other sites. WHERE ARE YOU GUYS!!!!!!!

Do you currently own a TT? If you do, I was going to say you may just want to get a new cart, or upgrade your phono stage.
I'm a strong believer in VTA. With REGA decks you can get a spacer but I think you are only limited to 2 or 4mm adjustment. I'm not sure if you can use one with REGA-like arm on Goldring. Also not sure about their new P1. It doesnt seem to have VTA adjustment as usual. I really dont understnad that at all. I guess by not having that option, it makes the entire deck/arm package more rigid. I've read alot about how MDF platter makes dead sounds. And metal platter is supposed to pickup alot of external sound. I sprayed my Pro-Ject platter with sound eliminating compound. If you can just ditch that felt mat and get a decent mat, you should be fine. I'm curious about P1 though. I seriously doubt that REGA would offer anything sub-par. But REGA was losing their market share because of less expensive ProJect decks. They could've easily rushed in to get a good chunck

from radioshack that has been dropped during a recent move. I took and my old Yes "fragile album that always sounded grainy ans scratchy on my TT and played it on a NAD TT at an audio store. It sounded azmaing, not grainy. Thats why I'm in the market for a new TT. My choice because of budget constraints are the listed in my 1s post. Now I did talk to a sales person who sold both Project and Rega says that tat the price indicated, nothing new beats Project. Its way unrated according to him

[dean_martin]

I own the older Pro-Ject 1.2. The platter is metal, but I'm not sure whether it's steel. I use a high output mc cartridge (Ortofon MC3-Turbo) with a Bellari phono stage feeding a Jolida tube amp. This setup is extremely quiet. I imagine the silences in music could be "blacker", but I think I would have to rework the whole system and spend lots of money. My system does quite well with quiet passages and in fact has had me on the edge of my seat a few times - not for want of hearing , but as a result of dramatic effect. So if you dropped a Pro-Ject DebutIII in a big-buck, highly resolving system you might notice the effects of a steel platter. Otherwise, I don't think it's going to be a problem.

That said, LP Gear has an "improved" version of the Goldring GR 1.2 for $349. They provide a stylus upgrade, mat upgrade and belt upgrade. If you liked the sound of the NAD turntable, you'll probably be satisfied with the Goldring because both are practically Rega copies. Here's a link to the Goldring: http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=GOLDRGR12&Category_Code=TURN

Audioadvisor has the stock Goldring for less: http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=MHGR1%2E2&product_name=Goldring%20GR-1%2E2%20Turntable

Edit: did a little research and found that the platter on the 1.2 is "cast aluminum" which may not be a fair comparison to the Debut w/steel platter.

[ericl]

at your budget, I highly recommend checking out the Technics SL-1200. IT's ridiculously solid turntable, sounds great, and will last a lifetime. These "budget audiophile" tables are flimsy toys by comparison. I've used: Music Hall MMF-5, Linn LP12, some obscure table I can't remember the name of, a Rega P5, the Technics, and now I have an old Thorens 126 (sold the technics to a friend who really wanted it when i got the thorens). The technics was the easiest to use of the lot, and was never embarassed performance wise. Definitely better than the music hall, which probably compares with the tables you're looking at. Easier set up too. Just don't get one that has been DJ'd on.

eric

[JoeE SP9]

Of course a Technics SL-1200 is extremely solid. It's aimed at the DJ and DJ wannabe market. The question should be, does it sound better than competitively priced belt drives? Does anyone have 2 TT's to do that kind of comparison?
Years ago when I bought my VPI-Jr it was demoed in just such a shootout. It was so much better than the DD TT it was compared to there was no question it sounded better. I doubt if most of the posters here treat a TT like a DJ would. How it sounds, not the ability to withstand rough usage should be the selection criteria.:ihih:

[ericl]

Of course a Technics SL-1200 is extremely solid. It's aimed at the DJ and DJ wannabe market. The question should be, does it sound better than competitively priced belt drives? Does anyone have 2 TT's to do that kind of comparison?
Years ago when I bought my VPI-Jr it was demoed in just such a shootout. It was so much better than the DD TT it was compared to there was no question it sounded better. I doubt if most of the posters here treat a TT like a DJ would. How it sounds, not the ability to withstand rough usage should be the selection criteria.:ihih:
Have you ever heard one, properly set up, with a good cartridge, in a good system?

The SL-1200 was an audio use table until DJ's adopted it because it was so solid. Technics has poured huge amounts of money into R&D for the technics over the years, and it's showed. It's capable of quite a bit. I think it sounds great, much better than the budget belt drives, which are toys in comparison. I've owned & compared with some expensive tables(Linn, Rega P5), Thorens), and the Technics was never embarrassed. Also, generalizing a random DD table you heard as representative of the 1200's sound is kind of silly. Totally different animals. Audiophiles like to poo-poo the Technics because they want to justify their mega-bucks table. The 1200 is not your typical DD table. It's a classic. Anything else, especially at the $500 level, is a waste of time. With cheap belt drives, who knows if the speed of your table is perfect? Who knows how long it will last? what are they made of? cardboard?

[Mash]

The motor on the TD125 died and I could not acquire a replacement. This happens with old equipment. The TD126 may have the same lack of available replacement parts.

The Technics 1200 / 1210 etc. look interesting and I have a spare SME. Your positive comments are persuasive while I have an interesting offer to consider for a new Technics.

Belt-drive turntables are very simple machines, and their prices are outrageous considering how simple these things are to machine and assemble. I wonder how many of these TT are made in China. I have had some very critical precision-machined setup tooling sets made in the USA for less than the cost of a VPI TNT.

[JoeE SP9]

Have you ever heard one, properly set up, with a good cartridge, in a good system?

The SL-1200 was an audio use table until DJ's adopted it because it was so solid. Technics has poured huge amounts of money into R&D for the technics over the years, and it's showed. It's capable of quite a bit. I think it sounds great, much better than the budget belt drives, which are toys in comparison. I've owned & compared with some expensive tables(Linn, Rega P5), Thorens), and the Technics was never embarrassed. Also, generalizing a random DD table you heard as representative of the 1200's sound is kind of silly. Totally different animals. Audiophiles like to poo-poo the Technics because they want to justify their mega-bucks table. The 1200 is not your typical DD table. It's a classic. Anything else, especially at the $500 level, is a waste of time. With cheap belt drives, who knows if the speed of your table is perfect? Who knows how long it will last? what are they made of? cardboard?

In answer to your question, yes. I suppose my own preference is based on not really listening to sub $1000 TT's. The TT that was the loser when I was in the market was a Micro Seiki. Being able to monitor the speed of a TT because it has a built in strobe is not that important to me. I have a strobe disk for setting my up TT and use it every year or so. I haven't had to adjust the motor speed in the last 5 years. In my experience most TT's are speed stable.

BTW: I have a Micro Seiki DQ-43 I keep in a closet in case I'll ever need something. It has a Rosewood veneer plinth a very nice straight arm with a mass adjustment weight and semi-automatic operation. It's a DD. It doesn't sound nearly as good as my VPI.:ihih:

[E-Stat]

Audiophiles like to poo-poo the Technics because they want to justify their mega-bucks table. The 1200 is not your typical DD table. It's a classic. Anything else, especially at the $500 level, is a waste of time.
Perhaps things have fundamentally changed over the years. I had a Technics SL-110 for a while - at least until I heard it compared with an LP-12 using the same SME 3009 / Ortofon cartridge combo. Consequently, I replaced it with a similar design Ariston RD-11s table. Thirty two years later, it still works just fine in the vintage system.


With cheap belt drives, who knows if the speed of your table is perfect?
Wouldn't they also use AC syncronous motors that lock onto the power line frequency? My elderly Ariston still maintains speed according to the strobe disk.

rw

[jrhymeammo]

Why dont you(not specific) perform tests like recording music on to CDR with same cart, phono, etc. and of course with different decks. Minimal differences of VTA, VTF, AS. The problem I see is that if soemone is recording in a situation where music are not played thru speakers, it will not show how resilient decks are from external vibration.

Of course the usual answer is no time, not interested, and I just enjoy music.

[royphil345]

Wouldn't they also use AC syncronous motors that lock onto the power line frequency? My elderly Ariston still maintains speed according to the strobe disk.




They do use AC synchronous motors. Not the best speed stability, which is why more expensive tables often use other designs. The entry-level tables are often not designed perfectly. Even the Rega 3 has been known to run a little fast. Weak motors, light platters, and a flimsy drive belt all contribute to poor wow and flutter specs on the entry-level belt drives. I've read reviews for all of the entry-level tables mentioning audible flutter on piano recordings.

I also feel that the least expensive entry-level belt drives are a bit over-hyped and that you could probably better their performance with a solidly built vintage direct-drive. I have a belt-drive Rotel RP-955 http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/analog-sources/rotel-rp955.html that was supposed to compare favorably with the Rega 3 sitting on standby while I use an old Sony PS-X5. Sony has better isolation and speed stability. Only difference is speed that's always accurate and an ever so slightly warmer sound to my ear.... and the handy shut-off at the end of the record... Sure don't hear any loss of detail or motor noise. Many crappy direct-drive tables were made in the "80s. Fact is direct-drive was developed as an improvement though... There are good ones out there. The Rotel I have on standby is a DC servo table. Has better wow and flutter specs than the AC synchronous tables, but speed tended to drift and be load sensitive which bothered me.

[jrhymeammo]

To get away from R&F. Can you guys talk about Rumble specs on both weighted and Unweighted IEC? I couldn't believe the specs on SOTA deck because their rumble specs. I did notice Technics' Weighted specs are MUCH higher than any decks offered by the Pro-Ject. But their unweighted is at only -56dbs. Pro-Ject doesnt state which measurement standard they use, and Rega never states their specs.

Isnt Weighted specs useless since they only test with high frequency tone?

[royphil345]

I wouldn't say the weighted specs are useless. Possibly more useful than unweighted specs where inaudible frequencies are included. As far as comparing the tables... it's apples and oranges unless the same standards of measurement are used.

I haven't owned a Technics yet. Good vintage tables are getting older and harder to come by though. Maybe soon... Will say my Sony DD seems very, very quiet... The massive weight of the chassis, platter, and thick rubber mat seem to do an excellent job of damping any noise that might be present. Wonder if the aluminum plinth on the Technics causes some kind of coloration not pleasing to some... Many tables seem to have the tonearm attached to something either warmer sounding or very thick and solid... The arm itself seems to take most of the blame from audiophiles who bash the Technics. Seems to be of pretty high quality though. Would have to keep the higher mass in mind when selecting a cartridge...

[3db]

at your budget, I highly recommend checking out the Technics SL-1200. IT's ridiculously solid turntable, sounds great, and will last a lifetime. These "budget audiophile" tables are flimsy toys by comparison. I've used: Music Hall MMF-5, Linn LP12, some obscure table I can't remember the name of, a Rega P5, the Technics, and now I have an old Thorens 126 (sold the technics to a friend who really wanted it when i got the thorens). The technics was the easiest to use of the lot, and was never embarassed performance wise. Definitely better than the music hall, which probably compares with the tables you're looking at. Easier set up too. Just don't get one that has been DJ'd on.

eric

but my choices are those that I have posted. I will not belooking at the technics as my only means of aquiring is thru ebay and I will have no idea whether or not the tt has been mistreated or packaged properly enough to ensure that no damge as occured during shipping. I rather take my chances on a new flimsy budget audioohyle from a reputable dealer table as I know what I'll be getting.

[JoeE SP9]

3db there is one thing you can be sure of with a belt drive. It hasn't been misused by a wannabe DJ! I would stay from the really inexpensive belt drives. They usually have not been treated all that well. From the mid prices up they have generally had better care because their owners usually knew what they had. If you are looking at new TT's check the selection at www.needledoctor.com (http://www.needledoctor.com) they have a good selection of TT's from several manufacturers.:cool:

[emorphien]

So how is the Rega P1?

[jrhymeammo]

The last thing I wanna do is to sound like a REGA basher. But I just can't understand why anyone would want to get a arm/deck combo that you cannot adjust VTA. Even if you are getting 2,4mm spacer, you are limited to 2 or 4 mm of adjustments. Not that I change VTA everytime I switch from a 200gram disk to a Dynaflex. Do you guys have like 3 mats sitting around? And seems like you have to buy more mats or spacers everytime you change your cartridge. Higher-End decks with 250s got that covered, but what gives with RegaTT man?

But anyway, I can't wait to read a review on P1. If RB100 is half as good as RB250, P1 should be killing other competitors.

-JRA

[3db]

The last thing I wanna do is to sound like a REGA basher. But I just can't understand why anyone would want to get a arm/deck combo that you cannot adjust VTA. Even if you are getting 2,4mm spacer, you are limited to 2 or 4 mm of adjustments. Not that I change VTA everytime I switch from a 200gram disk to a Dynaflex. Do you guys have like 3 mats sitting around? And seems like you have to buy more mats or spacers everytime you change your cartridge. Higher-End decks with 250s got that covered, but what gives with RegaTT man?

But anyway, I can't wait to read a review on P1. If RB100 is half as good as RB250, P1 should be killing other competitors.

-JRA

but the dealer I went to who sells both brands recommends the Project Debut over the Rega1 based on cost to manufacturer. The Projects are designed in Austria and built in Chezk republic were labour costs are lower than they are in England . Based on that line of thinking, you get more turntable for the same money than if it were buit in the UK. That is assuming Regas are still being built in the UK. If not, then that blows the salesman's theorey.

[royphil345]

You have to keep in mind that many salesmen's theories are based on which product will give them the best profit margin on that particular day. Cheaper labor may just mean a bigger markup to encourage dealers to sell Project.

Also, the Project has a long-standing fantastic reputation as an excellent entry-level table. The steel platter is a newer thing though... I remain skeptical...

Where the Rega and Goldring compromise on VTA adjustment, the Project and Music Hall compromise on anti-skate adjustment. They use the old string and weight method, which doesn't give you infinite settings. Rega and Goldring compromise on platter weight, where Project and Music Hall compromise by using a heavier but magnetic material.

Looks like you compromise a bit in this price-range no matter what. The Rega / Goldring recipe looks better to me. Just my opinion though...

[ericl]

but my choices are those that I have posted. I will not belooking at the technics as my only means of aquiring is thru ebay and I will have no idea whether or not the tt has been mistreated or packaged properly enough to ensure that no damge as occured during shipping. I rather take my chances on a new flimsy budget audioohyle from a reputable dealer table as I know what I'll be getting.

i hear you, but it is not hard to find them new for $350-400.

New 1200 (http://www.audiolines.com/product.php?productid=7434)

[jrhymeammo]

The Projects are designed in Austria and built in Chezk republic were labour costs are lower than they are in England . Based on that line of thinking, you get more turntable for the same money than if it were buit in the UK. That is assuming Regas are still being built in the UK. If not, then that blows the salesman's theorey.

P1 are made in the basement of Bernd's basement where skilled pups are working for PuppyChow. :)
About the production cost and quality material being used, I'll say it's impossible to tell. Who knews, maybe P-Js are using much inferior parts and increasing their profit margin by substantial ratios, while Rega is only making half of profit D3s pull in. It's always about money though, just like what RoyPhil said:


You have to keep in mind that many salesmen's theories are based on which product will give them the best profit margin on that particular day. Cheaper labor may just mean a bigger markup to encourage dealers to sell Project.

-JRA

[jrhymeammo]

I went to who sells both brands recommends the Project Debut over the Rega1 based on

Do they have them in stock or would they have to call their distributor once you place an order? If I know anything, distributors are always changing their prices based on demands and the product lifecycle stage it's in. Chances are Debut3 are being offered for less. Profit magin(again....) gotta be bigger for D3s.

Find out what kinda discount they can offer? I'll say they wont offer you a single percentage of discount with P1, but some with D3. BTW, they can offer discounts for P-Js in my shop. I never got it, but they've been offering to me whenever I go in and talk about a new TT.

-JRA

[3db]

Do they have them in stock or would they have to call their distributor once you place an order? If I know anything, distributors are always changing their prices based on demands and the product lifecycle stage it's in. Chances are Debut3 are being offered for less. Profit magin(again....) gotta be bigger for D3s.

Find out what kinda discount they can offer? I'll say they wont offer you a single percentage of discount with P1, but some with D3. BTW, they can offer discounts for P-Js in my shop. I never got it, but they've been offering to me whenever I go in and talk about a new TT.

-JRA

Salesman told me that there is no negotiation on price for the D3. He claims to have sold 20 in the last month. I'll take that info with a grain of salt.

[hifitommy]

the pete riggle vtaf and other vta adjusters are readily available if one needs it. continuous twiddling can result though, as different LP makers used different cutting angles. this has been demonstrated to me by david shreve in no uncertain terms.

http://www.musicdirect.com/products/search.asp?cat_id=ALL&man_id=ALL&advSearch=stdSearch&search_desc=no&keyword=vtaf

http://www.musicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AMRVTA