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Tweeter
11-12-2006, 01:02 PM
I’m replacing my 7 year old Marantz receiver (SR7000) with a Preamp-Processor /7 channel power amp, and I could use some advice on a whether I should consider a equipment with HDMI connectivity. First some details.

My TV/Video Monitor is a 6yr old Toshiba 55HX70 HD-RPTV and has 2 component inputs as well as S-video and composite. I view 2 main sources at this time.
One is a 2 mo. old Motorola HD-Cable PVR @ 1080i via component to TV. The unit also has an HDMI output connector on the rear panel.
The second is a 6 mo. old Marantz DV7600 SD DVD/-A/SACD Player @ 480p via component. The unit also has an HDMI output connector on the rear panel. This unit has a built-in up scaler that works on the HDMI out only and can be configured to 480p/576p/720p/1080i resolutions.

I’m considering the Anthem AVM 30 SSP for it’s audio performance/DSP/decoders/ switching /configuration abilities. The video switching is fairly basic with plenty of composite/S-Video and 4 HD 1080p compliant inputs. This switching would be enough for me now and until the time I replace the Toshiba TV. I have no complaints with the TV and estimate that in 2 to 4 years I will be ready to upgrade to a digital monitor when the display technology matures even more.

Anthem has 2 more models that interest me. The AVM 50 and AVM 40.
The AVM50 has 4 HDMI inputs and a full HD scaler/processor built into. It works quite well, as I had auditioned it at home, but I’m not too eager to pay an extra $1700 (half the cost of a AVM30) right now for this feature to use with an analog TV. When I could make full use of it in 2 to 4 yrs from now the scaler/processor of today may be outdated to some extent. Thoughts?
The AVM40, which is not going to be available for 1 to 2 months from now, has 4 HDMI inputs that provide direct switching to it’s HDMI output and trans-coding from S-video to component to HDMI. There is no scaler/processor but will also route digital audio thru the HDMI for DD/ DTS/ LPCM like the AVM 50. This model is an extra $700 more than the AVM 30 and I am considering this model for some “future compatibility” to switch digital video sources.

My concern is in 2 to 4 yrs from now I could use an HDMI switcher for convenience or necessity if my video monitor of the future has too few digital inputs.
Will the HDMI format change in some way that will render these video inputs obsolete or partially obsolete? I know the future of digital video/audio interfaces are impossible to predict and “future-proofing” is hard to attain.

Anthem will be offering a program shortly to upgrade an AVM 30 to the 50 by replacing the video switching board, P/S, S/W, and back panel to what the 50 has for about the difference in cost between the 30 and 50 models.

Maybe I should wait until the time I need the digital video switching and do the upgrade at that time, assuming it’s still an option to have done later in 2 to 4 years from now. I suppose if done later there may be upgrades on the hardware side that can be had when they are developed in the future too.

Are the HDMI inputs on the DLP’s / LCD’s / Plasmas adequate to use for the video input switching as opposed to using one on the SS Processor. Is scaling/processing on a SSP significantly more useful than the one provided on the source component or video monitor?


In summary, should go with the AVM30 and forget about HDMI switching for now, and upgrade later or not at all and use component thru the SSP and switch HDMI directly thru the monitor, or wait for the AVM40 and have the HDMI switching for the future. I prefer not wait for it, but am willing if it means I have/need the HDMI interface in the future. “A short term pain for long term gain”.

I hope you can help me with this decision, and my apologies for the long post.

Cheers,

AVMASTER
11-12-2006, 02:09 PM
short answer:
skip it; it is of no advantage to you now, plus it is a connection thats' still evolving.

edtyct
11-12-2006, 02:18 PM
The display is the crucial factor. If you aren't going to upgrade it for a few years, you might save yourself the expense of buying a pre/pro with HDMI switching now. If the SSP of your choice isn't graced with HDMI 1.3, you'll be forced to upgrade it anyway when you get a new TV. And even if it has HDMI 1.3, in 2 to 4 years when you'd really need it, the standard will be much cheaper and easier to implement. God only knows what the state of the art will be then. For what it's worth, I happen to be a firm believer that your purchases should please you now--and conceivably for at least 2 years hereafter--but in your case, the most cost-effective approach would be to work with your current video format. The only possible wrench in the works is that studios opt to activate the ICT, which could downgrade your component feed to sub-HD.

Eventually, and inevitably, you'll have to spend some money to reach a certain plateau, but with a little luck, you can tread water for a while and save up for the big changes later. You might just save yourself some cash in the process. I hope that I didn't miss any critical considerations.

Tweeter
11-12-2006, 06:53 PM
The only possible wrench in the works is that studios opt to activate the ICT, which could downgrade your component feed to sub-HD.

I read only Warner Pictures and Paramount will implement it. Is this only for Blu-ray DVD or HD DVD too. Does it apply to all content incl SD DVD,HD DVD and HD Cable /Satelitte.
Is this more paranoid copy protection?

Down the road when I get a new monitor, will there be timing issues if the HDMI connects from source to TV directly for video and Digital Audio bitstream from source to SSP. As in lip sync problems. The Anthem unit does have lip sync audio delay from 0 - 85 ms.

If todays HDMI interfaces need to be updated in 2 years, then as you and avmaster said, perhaps I should pass on HDMI now. I don't plan to be replacing this new SSP for at least 7 yrs or more. I may have it upgraded in a couple of years then if it's still offered and HDMI evolves more. I was hoping to do it now, but if doing so makes it obsolte in 2 -3 yrs, why bother.

edtyct
11-12-2006, 07:36 PM
Today's HDMI won't become obsolete, but it won't be up to date. It won't be able to transmit the latest audio/video codecs, deep color, and other enhancements, including automatic lip sync--all of which are on the docket for HDMI 1.3. ICT applies only to HD material. It's supposed to prevent unauthorized duplication of HD via the analog signal path, and, yes, it would seem to come under the heading of "more paranoid copy protection." SD DVD has nothing to worry about, since it's limited to 720x480 resolution. Who knows which content providers will decide to use it, if any, but it could affect any medium with "sensitive" content. I would imagine that if one influential studio set the precedent, others would soon follow. You might be able to get 1.3 on a pre/pro within months, but if you aren't looking for a new display, why buy into it now? You would appear to have little to gain, unless you were dead set against resorting to analog to hear the new DD and DTS formats on HD DVD and/or Blu-ray when available as such. I can tell you that they can sound awfully good via analog.

Tweeter
11-14-2006, 02:22 PM
You would appear to have little to gain, unless you were dead set against resorting to analog to hear the new DD and DTS formats on HD DVD and/or Blu-ray when available as such. I can tell you that they can sound awfully good via analog.

The Anthem's are HDMI 1.1 only. Their tech support said that 1.1 would pass up to 8 channels of decoded digital audio (PCM) from a HD DVD player into it's pre-amp thru the HDMI interface. This would be an alternative path to the analog outputs, right? Also, are these new DD/DTS formats 5.1 channels or higher as in 7.1? The problem using the pre-amp's 6 channel input for the new HD DVD audio formats is that they would already be used up connected to the DVD-Audio / SACD player. So how can you get around this?


Today's HDMI won't become obsolete, but it won't be up to date. It won't be able to transmit the latest audio/video codecs, deep color, and other enhancements, including automatic lip sync--all of which are on the docket for HDMI 1.3. You might be able to get 1.3 on a pre/pro within months, but if you aren't looking for a new display, why buy into it now?

I asked about the 1.3 upgrade path. That would require a hardware upgrade in the future. No idea if current products would be eligible at that time.
If your saying that todays HDMI (1.1) pre-amps going to be limited in the future (2 yrs) then should I stop beating a dead horse and forget about the HDMI interface now and go non-HDMI interface? I wonder if I should I consider postponing a new preamp/power amp for a couple more years too? If major coin is going to be invested I don't want to regret this decision. My feeling is that I'm also letting this HDMI issue cloud my judgement too much. Thoughts?

edtyct
11-14-2006, 02:54 PM
On point 1, the PCM through the HDMI 1.1 would be an alternative to the analog connection, provided that the players involved offered it. I don't believe that the Blu-ray players now do, but maybe someone else knows. The prospect of genuine discreet 7.1 channels of hi def audio is technically possible. When it will occur is a mystery. There's not much point to it for the time being.

On point 2, getting the full benefit of 1.3 would require a universal hardware upgrade for almost everyone. I don't know what kind of firmware changes individual companies would be able to make at various production intervals along the line; I suspect not many. If you can live happily w/o new pre and power amps for a year or two, then by all means, wait--that is, if you feel it necessary to defer to HDMI 1.3 as the standard. That's a personal call. Some people can't, or won't, postpone immediate gratification for the sake of a wing and a prayer, and after all, this little game is about gratification. I, for one, am not putting much stock in the video enhancements augured for HDMI 1.3 as having much relevance for the foreseeable future, and I'm perfectly content to let whatever hi def DVD player that I own decode DD+ and True, etc., and send them to my amp via analog, as they do now. Hell, my preamp section won't do audio at all, though it switches video nicely.

Tweeter
11-14-2006, 03:29 PM
Hell, my preamp section won't do audio at all, though it switches video nicely.

I'm curious, what pre-amp is it your using?

edtyct
11-14-2006, 03:45 PM
I'm using a Rotel.

Tweeter
11-14-2006, 04:58 PM
I'm using a Rotel.

I'm getting off topic, but what Rotel model won't do audio at all ??

edtyct
11-14-2006, 06:18 PM
No, sorry. My Rotel HDMI 1.1 (or shall we say 1.05) won't accept audio at all. Rotel's preamps and receivers do audio quite well otherwise. With the HDMI inputs, you have to use digital audio connections.

Tweeter
11-14-2006, 08:46 PM
No, sorry. My Rotel HDMI 1.1 (or shall we say 1.05) won't accept audio at all. Rotel's preamps and receivers do audio quite well otherwise. With the HDMI inputs, you have to use digital audio connections.


Would this be the RSX-1057 receiver? It's the only product that I know Rotel has with HDMI.

Just to be clear - Do you mean it switches video only on the HDMI input?...and that all digital audio is switched thru the standard coax/optical bitstream inputs and not thru the HDMI interface?

edtyct
11-15-2006, 03:32 AM
Good deduction: The RSX-1057. Digital audio is handled entirely through, in my case, coax feeds; only video enters, and switches, through HDMI.

Tweeter
11-15-2006, 03:24 PM
the PCM through the HDMI 1.1 would be an alternative to the analog connection, provided that the players involved offered it. I don't believe that the Blu-ray players now do, but maybe someone else knows. The prospect of genuine discreet 7.1 channels of hi def audio is technically possible. When it will occur is a mystery. There's not much point to it for the time being.

5.1 is here now for HD-DVD and like you say - when more channels happen... is a mystery.

I was told that if that if the audio path from an HD-DVD was sent to a SSP via the HDMI then the copy protection would shut off the component video on the DVD player so both the audio and video have to be on HDMI, or use component o/p with standard DD/DTS bitstream.
This is a HDCP thing I'm told.

edtyct
11-15-2006, 04:11 PM
Use of an HDCP-encoded signal disables any parallel component connection. However, HDMI video will not deter the analog equivalent of the hi def DD and DTS audio formats. HDCP is certainly a drag for those without digital I/O, but the ICT, which threatens HD video through component whether or not HDMI is a live option for someone, is a killer. Would that it never see the light of day.

Tweeter
11-15-2006, 09:53 PM
Use of an HDCP-encoded signal disables any parallel component connection. However, HDMI video will not deter the analog equivalent of the hi def DD and DTS audio formats. HDCP is certainly a drag for those without digital I/O, but the ICT, which threatens HD video through component whether or not HDMI is a live option for someone, is a killer. Would that it never see the light of day.

So, say I have a HD DVD player. I'm watching a 1080i video source. Component video from the DVD connects to an analog HD RPTV. This is the video path I have to take as I don't have a TV with HDMI.
Now I choose to listen to the new DD+ audio tracks thru the DVD's HDMI connection to the SSP which decodes the 6 channels of PCM and routes out to speakers via analog outs and pwr amp.
When the HDMI cable is connected and the DVD & SSP have handshaked and it transmits digital audio and video, does the analog component output of the DVD player shut off?
If it does, can you turn off the video from the HDMI connection and leave the dig audio signal flow only as to keep the component output turned on?

edtyct
11-16-2006, 06:41 AM
Here's what I think would happen: When the HD DVD player gets the message that the SSP is HDMI-friendly and sends its data, it thereby disables the component connection, but the handshake doesn't distinguish between audio and video signals. The SSP now becomes an HDMI repeater, a function that sometimes fails because the associated hardware isn't programmed properly to permit it. Assuming that it works, however, the SSP broadcasts its code and begins looking for an appropriate response downstream. Finding none, it shuts down completely, leaving HDMI audio in the lurch and still blocking the component feed. HDMI/HDCP is still active at this point, even though not with audio or video. Only by pulling HDMI out of the mix will you get component video back. Anyhow, that's the scenario that occurs to me, but HDMI can be so unpredictable that only by actually trying out the various units will you know for sure.

Tweeter
11-16-2006, 03:36 PM
HDMI can be so unpredictable that only by actually trying out the various units will you know for sure.

...Plug and Pray (lol)

Well it would seem that the popular opinion of everyone that I've approached is to pass on the HDMI models for the time being and re-visit it when I at least have a new display down the road 2-4 yrs from now and see how the format and equipment has evolved. This is the path I will take and hopefully anyone else in a situation like myself can learn from this discussion.

Thanks again edtyct for all your help.

btw...does the name edtyct stand for something?