Can Sony/PS3 be any worse for the gamer?

[Groundbeef]

It appears that the news has been out for a while, but underreported. It appears that Sony is going to enforce its NO-Resell policy for PS3 Games. It has informed large game distributers that they are forbidden to resell Used PS3 games. Sony views this as a profit loss for itself.

Apparently, as a consumer when you shell out your $60-80 per game, you are only buying the LICENCE to PLAY the game, not actually own the game. It appears that Sony has developed technology to "tag" the game to a specific console. This would disable the game from being used on different consoles, either by using at a friends house, or selling it to a game store for credit.

Great plan on Sony's part. Sony has issued some rather innoucus rebuttles, but has not conclusivly said that they will not be enforcing the ban on resell.

Way to go Sony! I hope you enjoy whatever game you buy to play, because apparently it will be yours forever!

http://www.gamesradar.com/gb/ps3/game/news/article.jsp?articleId=20060524153157765035&sectionId=1006

http://news.softpedia.com/news/A-New-PS3-Scandal-The-License-for-Each-Game-26629.shtml

[SlumpBuster]

Sounds like Sony is just following the lead of other game developers. Valve requires installation of their Steam application to play Half-Life 2. Everytime you start the game you have to connect to the internet to verify your license, even if you are not playing online. No connection, no gaming. More importantly, this allows developers to backdoor sunsetting provisions of applications. If Valve decides tomorrow to stop supporting Half-life, they can simply pull the plug and you can't play. Ten years from now, if you pull out you copy of Half-life just to play for old times sake, you'll be out of luck.

Your not buying a game anymore, only a license to play it.

[Groundbeef]

Yes, I remeber what a boondoggle it was to install half life 2 on release day. Steam was totally overwhelmed, and I couldn't play for about 3 days. Total rip, you pay $50 for a game, and it doesn't work out of the box.

The difference is that console gamers are not used to the hassle of PC gaming. Also, there is no real rental/used game market for PC games. Sure, some are sold on Ebay (Ive even sold a few) but you cant go to GameCrazy, or EB games and get nearly the selection that you can w/console games.

The other problem is that for those above mentioned retailers, the USED market is where the money is. New hardware is usually a break even, maybe turn a $5 or $10 per unit, and about $6 per game. (This is per a manager that I am friends with at a local EB). They make their money on accesories, and the most profit on used games. If Sony takes that away from them, I don't see them supporting the system.

Its short term gain, long term loss of retail support for Sony. Not to mention many gamers go to try games at these locations, or rent. (This would also kill the Sony rental market).

[Geoffcin]

It appears that the news has been out for a while, but underreported. It appears that Sony is going to enforce its NO-Resell policy for PS3 Games. It has informed large game distributers that they are forbidden to resell Used PS3 games. Sony views this as a profit loss for itself.

Apparently, as a consumer when you shell out your $60-80 per game, you are only buying the LICENCE to PLAY the game, not actually own the game. It appears that Sony has developed technology to "tag" the game to a specific console. This would disable the game from being used on different consoles, either by using at a friends house, or selling it to a game store for credit.

Great plan on Sony's part. Sony has issued some rather innoucus rebuttles, but has not conclusivly said that they will not be enforcing the ban on resell.

Way to go Sony! I hope you enjoy whatever game you buy to play, because apparently it will be yours forever!

http://www.gamesradar.com/gb/ps3/game/news/article.jsp?articleId=20060524153157765035&sectionId=1006

http://news.softpedia.com/news/A-New-PS3-Scandal-The-License-for-Each-Game-26629.shtml

They think they can do something similar to this with the BlueRay player, and it's media. The only problem is that this is going to blow up in their faces. The consuming public will not stand for Sony sticking it's nose into the home to tell you what you can and cannot do with your legally purchased software.

[Groundbeef]

They think they can do something similar to this with the BlueRay player, and it's media. The only problem is that this is going to blow up in their faces. The consuming public will not stand for Sony sticking it's nose into the home to tell you what you can and cannot do with your legally purchased software.

There in lies the problem. You say you own the software. Sony says you just own the RIGHT to play that disc/game/program on YOUR computer. If you think that you actually own it, you are just kidding yourself. Sony has developed and patented the technology to track and block people from reselling games in the aftermarket. Now they claim that they are not going to implement it, but they why develop it? Remeber the rootkit issue w/Sony music...I don't think this thing is over yet.

[Woochifer]

Maybe it's "underreported" because it's not true (or at least very unconfirmed)? As the rollout gets closer, is this all you got left in your PS3 slander campaign? Posting unsubstantiated rumors that date back to June and have already been denied by Sony?!

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060526-6929.html

Next thing you know, you'll start recycling your old posts about how the base PS3 will come with no hard drive (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=14930) and no HDMI (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=17571), and try to pass those debunked rumors off as fact as well. :lol:

Might help if you wait until the actual game consoles are on the market before trashing something that's not even available yet.

[Groundbeef]

As the rollout gets closer, is this all you got left in your PS3 slander campaign? Posting unsubstantiated rumors that date back to June and have already been denied by Sony?!

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060526-6929.html

Next thing you know, you'll start recycling your old posts about how the base PS3 will come with no hard drive (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=14930) and no HDMI (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=17571), and try to pass those debunked rumors off as fact as well. :lol:

Might help if you wait until the actual game consoles are on the market before trashing something that's not even available yet.


No, its not unsubtantiated rumor. Sony has patented technology that will allow it to "tie" a game to a particular machine. This is undisputed. What is in dispute is if Sony will actually use it.

As far as your statment that Sony has denied its use, check your facts professor. SCEE (sony corp electronice EUROPE denied that it will be used. Strangly enough SCEA Sony Corp Electronic Americas has NOT denied the feature, nor that it will not be used. SCEA has remained silent on both implementation, and usage. Those Europeans have some funny rules, and theirs are not the same as ours)

Do I think that Sony will enforce this patent? I don't know. I didn't think that they would install rootkits on computers that played Sony CD's either. If you don't think that this already happens on computers your living in the stone age. Your copy of XP is tied to your computer, as stated Half-Life 2 is tied to your PC. There is all sort of copy-protection schemes in use now.

The difference is that resell for computer games vs console games is so much different. If Sony enforces this provision it will be VERY bad for gamers.

Again, if your company is not going to use the technology, why develop it?


Always nice to see your posts Woochifer, now shouldn't you get back in line at BestBuy? Better hurry, you might lose your spot in line. Would be a real shame, as you've been in line since June.

[Woochifer]

No, its not unsubtantiated rumor. Sony has patented technology that will allow it to "tie" a game to a particular machine. This is undisputed. What is in dispute is if Sony will actually use it.

Of course it's unsubstantiated because NOTHING has been confirmed. You'll be proven right if the PS3 goes on sale and second hand games suddenly don't work. If the PS3 goes on sale and people start trading games with no problem, then your unsubstantiated rumor will remain so.


As far as your statment that Sony has denied its use, check your facts professor. SCEE (sony corp electronice EUROPE denied that it will be used. Strangly enough SCEA Sony Corp Electronic Americas has NOT denied the feature, nor that it will not be used. SCEA has remained silent on both implementation, and usage. Those Europeans have some funny rules, and theirs are not the same as ours)

The facts are that this rumor that has no independent substantiation. If the feature gets activated, then the market will respond accordingly (i.e., reject the PS3), which is exactly why I'm very skeptical that this "feature" will fly. If anything, the Xbox fanboys should be praying to the tech gods that Sony tries something like this because it would basically relegate the PS3 to also-ran status.


Do I think that Sony will enforce this patent? I don't know. I didn't think that they would install rootkits on computers that played Sony CD's either. If you don't think that this already happens on computers your living in the stone age. Your copy of XP is tied to your computer, as stated Half-Life 2 is tied to your PC. There is all sort of copy-protection schemes in use now.

And how many titles with those rootkits made it into the market, and how many of them have been released recently? The outcry from the market forced Sony to backtrack on the rootkits, and I would expect a similar pushback if they try to move the console market towards the PC game distribution model.

While Sony is in a battle for market share, what incentive would they have to cut off the second hand and rental markets if Microsoft and Nintendo don't follow suit? Makes absolutely no sense. That's where the PC gaming market differs from the console market.


Again, if your company is not going to use the technology, why develop it?

This is Sony we're talking about. They constantly develop new technologies and formats that never see the light of day, in much the same way that Microsoft has countless development projects and "rumored" features that never make it to market.


Always nice to see your posts Woochifer, now shouldn't you get back in line at BestBuy? Better hurry, you might lose your spot in line. Would be a real shame, as you've been in line since June.

How quickly you forget that I'm a casual gamer (i.e., I have a life). Might help if you read my posts or dust off your memory before making presumptions.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=142816&postcount=8

[Groundbeef]

Of course it's unsubstantiated because NOTHING has been confirmed. You'll be proven right if the PS3 goes on sale and second hand games suddenly don't work. If the PS3 goes on sale and people start trading games with no problem, then your unsubstantiated rumor will remain so. The feature is confirmed. Sony is denying that they intend to USE it. It is in their patent application for the PS3.




The facts are that this rumor that has no independent substantiation. If the feature gets activated, then the market will respond accordingly (i.e., reject the PS3), which is exactly why I'm very skeptical that this "feature" will fly. If anything, the Xbox fanboys should be praying to the tech gods that Sony tries something like this because it would basically relegate the PS3 to also-ran status. No ones praying. The console will be successful, and no one would deny that fact. It just remains to be seen if Sony remains on top.




And how many titles with those rootkits made it into the market, and how many of them have been released recently? The outcry from the market forced Sony to backtrack on the rootkits, and I would expect a similar pushback if they try to move the console market towards the PC game distribution model.
Not sure how many individual CD's made it into market, but it is estimated that it infected over 500,000 individual networks. 5.7 MILLION CD's were sold with the rootkit on it. Not all went to consumers, as some were in transit/warehouse etc. See link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_CD_copy_protection_scandal





This is Sony we're talking about. They constantly develop new technologies and formats that never see the light of day, in much the same way that Microsoft has countless development projects and "rumored" features that never make it to market. And your point is?


[QUOTE=Woochifer]

[Woochifer]

The feature is confirmed. Sony is denying that they intend to USE it. It is in their patent application for the PS3.

So you're saying that you've seen this feature in action, and that someone with access to a working unit has actually confirmed that it's installed on the actual production units? C'mon, you've CONFIRMED this first hand, right?

Or are you going to try going back to your previous "PS3 has NO hard drive!" and "PS3 has NO HDMI!" rumors? Great information sources U must be readin'!


No ones praying. The console will be successful, and no one would deny that fact. It just remains to be seen if Sony remains on top.

Maybe not praying, but definitely HOPING, as you're foaming at the mouth over everything bit of negative news about the PS3, regardless of whether it's actually true or not. If Sony's stupid enough to cut off the secondary game market, then they'll assure themselves a middling market share if Microsoft and Nintendo don't follow suit.


Not sure how many individual CD's made it into market, but it is estimated that it infected over 500,000 individual networks. 5.7 MILLION CD's were sold with the rootkit on it. Not all went to consumers, as some were in transit/warehouse etc.

And how many titles did this represent? And how many have been released since then?


And your point is?

You're the one trying to assert that this "feature" is a done deal just because Sony supposedly developed it. I'm simply pointing out that just because a company develops something does not mean that it will make its way to market. You mean to tell me that everything in development at a company eventually comes to market?


Ohhhhh, pithy. Better check your watch, its almost 2:45 pm CST. That would make it about 12:45 your time. About time to get dinner at the cafeteria, and hurry back to your room before the nurse at the home changes the channel on you. As for life, I'm not sure how Canasta fits in, but if its your thing, who am I to judge. Cheers!

Boy, you just can't ever admit a mistake or retract a false accusation, can you? :ciappa:

[Geoffcin]

Groundbeef; If you see that I've edited your post it was for a reason. If you continue to post personal derogatory remarks you will draw a suspension. Consider this your one and only warning.

[Groundbeef]

So you're saying that you've seen this feature in action, and that someone with access to a working unit has actually confirmed that it's installed on the actual production units? C'mon, you've CONFIRMED this first hand, right?

No, this feature has not been seen in action. However, it HAS been developed for the PS3. The issue is whether Sony is going to IMPLEMENT it that is up for debate. Currently only Sony Europe has stated that it will not be using it. Sony America has not commented either way. Would seem rather simple for Sony America to release a statement saying that they do not intend to use it. But they havent...so your guess is as good as mine.




Or are you going to try going back to your previous "PS3 has NO hard drive!" and "PS3 has NO HDMI!" rumors? Great information sources U must be readin'! Are you in a parallel universe? Initially the base grade PS3 Didn't have a HD, nor did it have HDMI. I guess you could go back 50 years and drag up a quote about people doubting if color on TV will catch on. BTW do you even own a color TV?




Maybe not praying, but definitely HOPING, as you're foaming at the mouth over everything bit of negative news about the PS3, regardless of whether it's actually true or not. If Sony's stupid enough to cut off the secondary game market, then they'll assure themselves a middling market share if Microsoft and Nintendo don't follow suit.
Nahhh, its more the debate I enjoy. I have told you before, I don't really care either way, but it is fun to speculate. As you seem to forget everytime you dive in the shallow end head first, THIS IS THE NEWS AND RUMOR board.




And how many titles did this represent? And how many have been released since then?

It was on about 102 albums on 2 major labels. Should I read the rest of the Wiki article for you, or does that help? As far as since the fiasco, I think about ZERO. But I guess if your logic holds, if Sony can slip it under the radar, then thats ok. Its only a problem if the masses figure it out.




You're the one trying to assert that this "feature" is a done deal just because Sony supposedly developed it. I'm simply pointing out that just because a company develops something does not mean that it will make its way to market. You mean to tell me that everything in development at a company eventually comes to market?
No of course not. Development is one thing. The problem is that implementation is not really all that difficult. I know you are in the tiny minority of gamers that don't have their machine hooked up to the internet, but many do. In the future most games will be bought and paid for online, and delivered online. It really won't be that hard to tie games to machines, as it is done now w/some PC titles. You are the one that is looking a little deer in the headlights here. Sony has a history of underhanded dealings with rights managment, and I don't think it is foolish of consumers to ask questions.




Boy, you just can't ever admit a mistake or retract a false accusation, can you? :ciappa: Nothing to retract, or admit. When I'm wrong I'm wrong. Perhaps you ought to be posting in the "Written in Stone, No Debate Allowed" forum.

[Woochifer]

No, this feature has not been seen in action. However, it HAS been developed for the PS3. The issue is whether Sony is going to IMPLEMENT it that is up for debate. Currently only Sony Europe has stated that it will not be using it. Sony America has not commented either way. Would seem rather simple for Sony America to release a statement saying that they do not intend to use it. But they havent...so your guess is as good as mine.

:lol: "your guess is as good as mine" Keep right on backtracking ... good boy, here's your treat! :cornut:

I'm not guessing about anything. You seem more about stirring up hysteria with your "CAN SONY/PS3 BE ANY WORSE FOR THE GAMER?" pronouncements, only to find that the purported news you tout is nothing more than five-month old rumors that have already been debunked. Like I said, why not dredge up your old hard drive and HDMI rumors, since they got nearly as much truth to them as the info you've posted in this thread has.

I'd rather wait for the production units to come out, and make my purchasing decision based on what's real rather than what some internet fanboys presume, whether the presumptions are pro- or anti-PS3.


Are you in a parallel universe? Initially the base grade PS3 Didn't have a HD, nor did it have HDMI. I guess you could go back 50 years and drag up a quote about people doubting if color on TV will catch on. BTW do you even own a color TV?

Color TV? BWAAAAHAAAAH!!!! You really got me there! Yer so funny! :sleep:

I only had to go back a few months to find those other rumors of yours that turned out to be false. 50 years?! If you got other older hysterical sky-is-falling rumors that you've spread around previously, they wouldn't interest me. Sorry!

The only parallel universe seems to be yours -- y'know the one where PS3s don't come with hard drives and HDMI connections, and I'm some hardcore Playstation fanboy gamer that will trudge through snow and sleet to get his hands on one of the first PS3s. Back in the real world, the base PS3s do come with those features, I already got plans for 11/17 that do not have anything to do with the PS3, Cali's still got mild weather in November, and I doubt that I'll even have a PS3 by this time next year!


It was on about 102 albums on 2 major labels. Should I read the rest of the Wiki article for you, or does that help? As far as since the fiasco, I think about ZERO. But I guess if your logic holds, if Sony can slip it under the radar, then thats ok. Its only a problem if the masses figure it out.

Nope, I'm simply saying that if Sony ever tries this new "feature" that you're touting as fact, then they'll face a similar market pushback that they deservedly got with the rootkits. You really think that Sony can "slip it under the radar" with the PS3? The second that used games stop working, you can bet that there will be a huge backlash that everyone will hear about.


No of course not. Development is one thing. The problem is that implementation is not really all that difficult. I know you are in the tiny minority of gamers that don't have their machine hooked up to the internet, but many do. In the future most games will be bought and paid for online, and delivered online. It really won't be that hard to tie games to machines, as it is done now w/some PC titles. You are the one that is looking a little deer in the headlights here. Sony has a history of underhanded dealings with rights managment, and I don't think it is foolish of consumers to ask questions.

"Tiny minority" of gamers? Uh, last time I checked, the majority of the 105 million PS2s did not use any network connections. Even Xbox Live only has 4 million members out of a combined 30 million Xbox and Xbox 360 consoles.

What does online gaming and PC games have to do with your little rumormongering about Sony conspiring to eliminate the secondary game market with the PS3? Just because it wouldn't be hard to tie a game to a machine does not mean that it will actually happen. I mean, it would be easy for me drive my car into a wall, but that doesn't mean that I will do it.


Nothing to retract, or admit. When I'm wrong I'm wrong.

Oh really, nothing to retract? So tell me about that PS3 that I'm supposedly getting next week. If you'd reserved one in my name without telling me, that would be rather rude.

Of course, IF I was actually lined up for a PS3 like you say I am, that thing would already be posted on eBay waiting for the first $2,500 bid.


Perhaps you ought to be posting in the "Written in Stone, No Debate Allowed" forum.

And perhaps you should be posting in a gamer forum, since false rumors and fanboy pissing matches are more welcome there.

[Groundbeef]

Actually, I have stepped back and re-read my original post. I appear to be incorrect, and am sorry. Sony has developed the tech, but at this time it doesn't appear to be ready to use it.

I had a post removed for some personal comments, and although I disagree as the comments were in jest, I also apologize for them.

Thanks, and I'll see you all in another thread!

[Geoffcin]

Actually, I have stepped back and re-read my original post. I appear to be incorrect, and am sorry. Sony has developed the tech, but at this time it doesn't appear to be ready to use it.

I had a post removed for some personal comments, and although I disagree as the comments were in jest, I also apologize for them.

Thanks, and I'll see you all in another thread!

It's ALWAYS good to play watchdog against the "Evil Empire". If Sony could have gotten away with the Rootkit scheme they used in the CD debacle last year they would have loved it, and EVERYONE else making CDs would have followed along evetually. If they could get away with putting the "this game will self destruct if you play it in another unit" tech into the new Playstation 3 games they will love it too. It's only by the public holding their feet to the fire do we stand a chance to keep our fair use rights.

[Woochifer]

Actually, I have stepped back and re-read my original post. I appear to be incorrect, and am sorry. Sony has developed the tech, but at this time it doesn't appear to be ready to use it.

I had a post removed for some personal comments, and although I disagree as the comments were in jest, I also apologize for them.

Thanks, and I'll see you all in another thread!

Well said, I guess we'll now wait for your threads when the inevitable problems crop up with the actual PS3 units that hit the stores next week! :ihih: