Is a heavy guage power cord helpful?

[zappafreak]

If You Have 14 Ga. Romex In The Wall Why Would A Thicker Ga. Power Cord Be Good?
Zf

[mtrycraft]

If You Have 14 Ga. Romex In The Wall Why Would A Thicker Ga. Power Cord Be Good?
Zf


Good question :) That doesn't stop an audiophile. They just make up reasons, any one will do :)

[zappafreak]

I Intended To Ask This Question In Regards To An Amplifier Pwr. Cord.
For Example... Along With My Ps Audio Hca-2 Pwr. Amp. I Received A Free 8 Ga. Cord And The Stock 14 Ga. Cord.
I Tried Both, And The Fatter One Won.
Is There A Scientific Reason For This Or As You Infered... I Just Wanted To Belive?
Zf,

[Beckman]

I Intended To Ask This Question In Regards To An Amplifier Pwr. Cord.
For Example... Along With My Ps Audio Hca-2 Pwr. Amp. I Received A Free 8 Ga. Cord And The Stock 14 Ga. Cord.
I Tried Both, And The Fatter One Won.
Is There A Scientific Reason For This Or As You Infered... I Just Wanted To Belive?
Zf,

First off everything I say is my opinion based on my experiance and knowledge.

Electricity is produced at power plants by synchronous generators powered by steam(usually). Next it is jacked up to a very high voltage (on the order of 30 kV depending on where you live. It travels many miles and is periodicly stepped up by autotransformers(voltage regulators) as the voltage drops due to losses from the transmission line resistance. It is stepped down several times until it has a line to line voltage of 220 Vrms. A 120 Vrms outlet in your house is line to neutral voltage. Keep in mind your wall outlet is connected to a power plant. Through all the voltage regulators, auto boosters. transformers, switching capacitor banks(reduce power factor), etc. These things can add harmonics. A perfect sinusoidal wave has only one harmonic. Harmonics refers to disortions in the wave. The voltage from your outlet can very a great deal 115V to 120 V usualy.

Now here is the kicker. With all the thousands of miles of copper and aluminum electricity has to travel through to get to your stereo a one meter power cable is suppose to make it sound better? I don't think it does. As long as the power cable you are using fits snuggle into the wall outlet and into the back of your amp and has the proper current rating it will work fine. As for harmonics, all an amp does is convert a AC to DC used to bias transistors anyway. Voltage regulators, auto boosters and other things that might cause harmonics are designed to switch in such a fashion that the harmonics are at much higher frequencies so they can be easly filtered out. Amp designers know from the undergraduate power classes they took in college that there are voltage fluctuations and harmonics and take this into account when designing their power supplies. The design of the power supply in the amp is what is important.

As for the 8 gauge cord at least you didn't pay for it:)

[mtrycraft]

I Intended To Ask This Question In Regards To An Amplifier Pwr. Cord.
For Example... Along With My Ps Audio Hca-2 Pwr. Amp. I Received A Free 8 Ga. Cord And The Stock 14 Ga. Cord.
I Tried Both, And The Fatter One Won.
Is There A Scientific Reason For This Or As You Infered... I Just Wanted To Belive?
Zf,

14 ga should be more than enough to handle most amp loading. It is safe for 15 A and rated for 20 For safe operations. All depends on the insulation type, not the wire ga, especially for short runs. So, that 14 ga should handle 1800 watts easy.

As was stated, if it is free, use what makes you happy. As to audible differences, hogwash. But, a credible DBT will convince me otherwise, or measurements at the amp output.

[okiemax]

I Intended To Ask This Question In Regards To An Amplifier Pwr. Cord.
For Example... Along With My Ps Audio Hca-2 Pwr. Amp. I Received A Free 8 Ga. Cord And The Stock 14 Ga. Cord.
I Tried Both, And The Fatter One Won.
Is There A Scientific Reason For This Or As You Infered... I Just Wanted To Belive?
Zf,

You either heard or imagined an improvement. Of these two possibilities, the more fortunate would be the second, as it would mean you have the power to enhance or even create pleasurable sensory experiences. All you have to do is just want to believe. If you aren't that lucky, however, you may have to settle for the first possibility.

[skeptic]

If you replaced your garden hose with an adaptor and a fire hose do you think water would come out of it any faster?

If the pipe between the valve under your kitchen sink and the faucet were replaced with a four inch pipe do you think the water would come out of the faucet any faster?

Of all the arguements about cables, the one about power cables is the dumbest and the DIY poses the greatest danger to people who don't know what they are doing.

[E-Stat]

If you replaced your garden hose with an adaptor and a fire hose do you think water would come out of it any faster?
On an instantaneous burst basis as through a pistol nozzle, yes. Burst pressures can be four times that of average faucet pressure. That is why even the lowest quality garden hose is rated for 200 psi. As for continuous duty, no.

rw

[skeptic]

Pressure is driven at the other end by the city or your well pump, not the nozzle end. A 4 inch fire hose at the end of a hundred feet of 3/4 inch copper pipe will not improve the flow rate. Same with a faucet. (BTW, pressure is analogous to voltage, flow rate is analogous to current.)

[E-Stat]

(BTW, pressure is analogous to voltage, flow rate is analogous to current.)
Indeed. I would expect little benefit from the poster's digital switching amp that draws relatively little current. Naturally, one would need to analyze other devices on the circuit if it were not dedicated. With my system, however, I can see a VOM monitoring the line instantaneously "wince" by a volt or two on it's dedicated circuit when my monoblocks are running full tilt at 20 amps playing something like Stravinsky.

rw

[mtrycraft]

Check out this link :)

http://www.swfm.com/audiofederation/dealership/newsletter-december-2002/index.htm

[mtrycraft]

With my system, however, I can see a VOM monitoring the line instantaneously "wince" by a volt or two on it's dedicated circuit when my monoblocks are running full tilt at 20 amps playing something like Stravinsky.
rw


WOW, that much? Maybe you should check and make sure you have good supply caps in the amp to take care of that sag, or get better amps that can.

[F1]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but there should be a fuse inside the amplifier and electric current has to pass safety fuse before power supply. If you look at inside the fuse there's only tiny string of wire corresponding to the max ampere it can take. So there is no point of adding heavier power cable if ended up limited by the fuse.

[E-Stat]

WOW, that much? Maybe you should check and make sure you have good supply caps in the amp to take care of that sag, or get better amps that can.
VTL 450s have something over 300 joules of power supply. I would happily get a pair of Siegfrieds if the budget allowed. :)

rw

[skeptic]

I do not trust these measurements. Even the slightest change to the room or the position and orientation of the microphone can result in radically different SPL measurements from one trial to the next. I would prefer to see purely electrical measurements made on a test bench. If acoustical measurements were to mean anything at all, they should be made under controlled test conditions in an anechoic chamber using a calibrated microphone. The use of this type of test introduces many unnecessary variables about which we know absolutely nothing. The reviewer also noted that the performance changed as the amplifier warmed up. The method of the test was obviously completely uncontrolled and therefore seriously flawed. There was absolutely no discussion of the test procedure or steps to assure that the comparisons have any validity whatsoever.

[mtrycraft]

I do not trust these measurements. Even the slightest change to the room or the position and orientation of the microphone can result in radically different SPL measurements from one trial to the next. I would prefer to see purely electrical measurements made on a test bench. If acoustical measurements were to mean anything at all, they should be made under controlled test conditions in an anechoic chamber using a calibrated microphone. The use of this type of test introduces many unnecessary variables about which we know absolutely nothing. The reviewer also noted that the performance changed as the amplifier warmed up. The method of the test was obviously completely uncontrolled and therefore seriously flawed. There was absolutely no discussion of the test procedure or steps to assure that the comparisons have any validity whatsoever.


Me neither:) Not much information to accompany it, how it was done, what levels etc.

[E-Stat]

Me neither:) Not much information to accompany it, how it was done, what levels etc.
Gee that's funny. You mean like all the DBT references you gave me ? (save the Tag McLaren one of course that does not support your viewpoint)

rw

[bturk667]

I Intended To Ask This Question In Regards To An Amplifier Pwr. Cord.
For Example... Along With My Ps Audio Hca-2 Pwr. Amp. I Received A Free 8 Ga. Cord And The Stock 14 Ga. Cord.
I Tried Both, And The Fatter One Won.
Is There A Scientific Reason For This Or As You Infered... I Just Wanted To Belive?
Zf, 1. Did you expect to hear a difference?
2. If so, what difference did you expect to hear and why?
3. Was the difference that you heard the one you expected?
4. Is the difference for the better?
5. Are you happy?

Lastly, always let your ears decide for you!!!

[RGA]

From Bryston

"A/C POWER CABLES
When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get."

http://www.bryston.ca/cablememo.html

[okiemax]

The subject of Bryston and power cords has been discussed at length over at AudioAslyum on the Cable and Prop Head Forums. Almost everyone who has reported trying an aftermarket cord on their Bryston amp has heard no improvment, but some of the same people have heard improvements on equipment made by other manufacturers. If you read all Bryston has to say on the matter (see their Newsletters), it looks like they are allowing for the possibility an aftermarket cord might improve the performance of a non-Bryston product.

I wonder about Bryston's "miles of wire" explanation. Isn't the power entering the amp a little different than what left the power plant? Oh well, at least the writer didn't go all the way back to the coal mine.

[mtrycraft]

Gee that's funny. You mean like all the DBT references you gave me ? (save the Tag McLaren one of course that does not support your viewpoint)

rw


Actually, they all support my view. You just cannot understand it. Over your head.

[E-Stat]

Actually, they all support my view.
Really? Let's test your reading comprehension skills. This ought to be fun.

What is the selling price of the two cable contestants in the test?

rw

[mtrycraft]

Really? Let's test your reading comprehension skills. This ought to be fun.

What is the selling price of the two cable contestants in the test?

rw

Irrelevant.

[E-Stat]

Irrelevant.
Interesting response from someone with the Dollar store cable mentality. A test that concludes that there are no audible differences between two cables each costing in the hundreds of dollars is a diffferent story than comparing any one of those to your preference.

I believe there are many fine cables in the $200-$300 range that are roughly equivalent and audibly better than the cheapo stuff.

rw

[Beckman]

I wonder about Bryston's "miles of wire" explanation. Isn't the power entering the amp a little different than what left the power plant? Oh well, at least the writer didn't go all the way back to the coal mine.

The power is the same, it is the voltages that are different. In fact a major part of power grid design involves voltage regulation. Making sure power factors and voltage levels are exceptable. You don't want the voltage level coming out of the wall to drop to 110 Vrms on Monday morning when the newspaper nextdoor turns on their presses.

[Beckman]

Interesting response from someone with the Dollar store cable mentality. A test that concludes that there are no audible differences between two cables each costing in the hundreds of dollars is a diffferent story than comparing any one of those to your preference.

I believe there are many fine cables in the $200-$300 range that are roughly equivalent and audibly better than the cheapo stuff.

rw

What do you define as cheapo?
What about comparing two cables, both with the same current ratings.
Both the same length.
One costing $5 and the other costing $1200. What would the $1200 cable do to the Voltage that a $5 cable wouldn't do?

[E-Stat]

What do you define as cheapo?
In the context of discussion with mytry, $1 interconnects.



What about comparing two cables, both with the same current ratings.
Both the same length.
One costing $5 and the other costing $1200. What would the $1200 cable do to the Voltage that a $5 cable wouldn't do?
Which type of cable are you referring to in your hypothetical question (ie. power, IC, spkr) ?

rw

[RGA]

The power is the same, it is the voltages that are different. In fact a major part of power grid design involves voltage regulation. Making sure power factors and voltage levels are exceptable. You don't want the voltage level coming out of the wall to drop to 110 Vrms on Monday morning when the newspaper nextdoor turns on their presses.

True but an expensive power cord can't add back power...surely that is not the claim.

The amplifier itself regulates the power it is give...it has its own KIND of step up down device built in.

E-Stat did say something intriguing though.

A delaer here did a demo of a line conditioner doo hicky device from Monster and when he connected it to a Marantz 7300 with another measuring device it lowerd the noise of the Marantz significantly ~24db...the device was a little meter and had an amp and speaker (hand held) so you could hear the HISS better and then when he plugged it into the Monster power bar the hiss was gone.

He did the same with the Bryston but there was no hiss to start with so the Monster bar was not necessary.

SO unless a lot of these cheap recievers and aother amp you're looking at are simply so horrible for words I don't see the device as necessary...and the store could have an atrocious power set-up just to make thise device seem needed.

So unless the power cord has this device built into the cord then I don't see the point.

[E-Stat]

A delaer here did a demo of a line conditioner doo hicky device from Monster and when he connected it to a Marantz 7300 with another measuring device it lowerd the noise of the Marantz significantly ~24db...
I run my turntable through a Monster HTS-1000. I have a low output MC cartridge and while my phono preamp is fairly quiet at 78 dB, it is audibly quieter with the conditioner.

As for power cords, I run my CDP with a JPS Labs digital. It has an RF resistant insulation layer than runs the length of the cord. There are also filter networks at each plug end. Both means are used to limit the effect of both radiated and conducted RF. CD players are often a good source of RF radiation.

rw

[Beckman]

In the context of discussion with mytry, $1 interconnects.



Which type of cable are you referring to in your hypothetical question (ie. power, IC, spkr) ?

rw

$1 interconnects. I don't know if I have ever sene interconnects that cheap. I am sure they sound fine, but gosh darn. Why not spend $4-5 on interconnects and buy something from a company that at least has some quality control.

I was refering to any cable.(except video because some RCA cables that are made for audio don't work for video).

[Beckman]

[QUOTE=RGA]True but an expensive power cord can't add back power...surely that is not the claim.

The amplifier itself regulates the power it is give...it has its own KIND of step up down device built in.

QUOTE]

I didn't mean to imply that power cords regulate voltage.

The amplifier doesn't regulate power, it regulates voltage. The power it uses depends on what volume it is set at, what speakers it is driving, and the type of music it is playing. Current and voltage are are only related by impedance(capacitance, inductance, resistance):)

As for the whole power supply thing, I meant to imply that it is rediculous for people to spend the kind of money some of them do on power cords. They could buy a whole new DC power supply for the cost of some of the power cords used, and a new power supply might actually improve the sound quality:)

[E-Stat]

I was refering to any cable.(except video because some RCA cables that are made for audio don't work for video).
Well I perceive different somewhat different benefits from using better interconnects vs. better speaker cables. The short answer is the background is audibly "blacker" with less grunge to mask subtle musical harmonics and detail. I am not referring to a high end rolloff, either. I hear more of the harmonic structure of a french horn or a bassoon. More inflection with female voice. The differences are subtle, but to most folks even greater differences are of little import.

To each his own.

rw

[okiemax]

The power is the same, it is the voltages that are different. In fact a major part of power grid design involves voltage regulation. Making sure power factors and voltage levels are exceptable. You don't want the voltage level coming out of the wall to drop to 110 Vrms on Monday morning when the newspaper nextdoor turns on their presses.

Right, the power is transmitted long distances using a high voltage AC system, but the voltage is stepped down to 240 volts by a transformer near your house. Therefore, that nearby transformer is the start of the AC chain for your house. So as long as that transfomer is supplied, would the transmission distance in "miles of wire" make a difference in the service at your house?

[E-Stat]

... would the transmission distance in "miles of wire" make a difference in the service at your house?
When the source of the RF and interference lies largely within your house, even within other components such as CDPs a couple of feet away, the answer is yes.

rw

[Beckman]

So as long as that transfomer is supplied, would the transmission distance in "miles of wire" make a difference in the service at your house?

Yes, if it wasn't there I wouldn't have any electricity:) The question here is does a 3 ft. power cord really make a component sound better.

[mtrycraft]

Interesting response from someone with the Dollar store cable mentality. A test that concludes that there are no audible differences between two cables each costing in the hundreds of dollars is a diffferent story than comparing any one of those to your preference.

I believe there are many fine cables in the $200-$300 range that are roughly equivalent and audibly better than the cheapo stuff.

rw


Go ahead and test them then. No big deal. Cost is irrelevant, unless you are interested in knowing how well expensive cables do in DBT listening. Why would cost change the outcome? It doesn't and it hasn't. If they are equivalents, the outcome is in the bank. An exercise in futility. So, in the end, cost is still irrelevant.

But, for the record, Nousaine did state the price in one test, $990 cable vs cheap ones. In the bank results.Others may have as well, don't remember. The ABX web site should have that. Certainly on my citation list and since you read them, why even ask?

[mtrycraft]

The short answer is the background is audibly "blacker" with less grunge to mask subtle musical harmonics and detail. I am not referring to a high end rolloff, either. I hear more of the harmonic structure of a french horn or a bassoon. More inflection with female voice. The differences are subtle, but to most folks even greater differences are of little import. rw

Yet another testable claim. This is testable, after all. Maybe that $1 cable will not do, not up to standards. I am sure you have my post where I specified or suggested $1 interconnects, right? Or just making things up again.

[E-Stat]

Cost is irrelevant, unless you are interested in knowing how well expensive cables do in DBT listening. Why would cost change the outcome?
You are missing the point. You point to a test where equally (expensive) cables are considered equivalent and suggest that is evidence that a $1 cable would fare the same. It is not.



But, for the record, Nousaine did state the price in one test, $990 cable vs cheap ones.
I am sure that Mr. Car Stereo can find any number of "expensive" cables that may not perform much better ( in his car stereo?) than El Cheapos. Try Valhalla vs. RS on something significantly better than mid-fi stuff and let me know the results.

rw

[E-Stat]

I am sure you have my post where I specified or suggested $1 interconnects, right? Or just making things up again.
The specific $1 reference was from Chris' Alcoholics cable guidelines post initially stated by Skeptic and concurred (or sayd? as you put it) by you. I'll help jog your memory:
__________________________________________________ ________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
When I wasted my time argueing with JR, he said that unless you had a very "high resolution" sound system whatever that means (I assume it means expensive and to his liking) you couldn't hear the benefits of improved cables. Of course if you are skeptical like I am and are waiting for the wizards to raise the curtain to show us if there is really anything behind it (besides the old man pulling levers), you don't pay much attention to these articles telling you what to spend. IN the meanwhile, $500, $5000, or $50,000 system I would still use the same 16 gage speaker wire, the same $1 RS interconnects, and the power cords that come with the equipment. Even for a $500 system, that still comes out lower cost percentage wise than the numbers in the article.


Yep, that is why I sayd that on a low cost system, the wire might be 5%. 5% of $500 is $25. Actually, that may not be enough if you have much to wire together
On a $50K system, it may be .02%
__________________
mtrycrafts

[pelly3s]

I know it's been decided by almost everyone here that the power cable doesn't make a difference. The only difference may come from cables made with filters in the connectors other than that there would be no difference. In theory you could use a 16 or 18 AWG cable. It's like when coming from an amp into a speaker, you make the run with 12 AWG to the speaker and 90% of the time you are going to end up with like 18 AWG or smaller in the speaker cabinet in that short of a run the difference is so small that noone could possibably here the difference. I work for a pro audio company and I have run a Macrotech 5000 in bridge mono at 4 ohms going to full clip and you couldn't hear the difference between two feet of 14 AWG and 20 feet of 10 AWG. So back to the power thing, it's just a high power 60Hz tone coming out of the wall so the same theory applies

[zappafreak]

First off everything I say is my opinion based on my experiance and knowledge.

Electricity is produced at power plants by synchronous generators powered by steam(usually). Next it is jacked up to a very high voltage (on the order of 30 kV depending on where you live. It travels many miles and is periodicly stepped up by autotransformers(voltage regulators) as the voltage drops due to losses from the transmission line resistance. It is stepped down several times until it has a line to line voltage of 220 Vrms. A 120 Vrms outlet in your house is line to neutral voltage. Keep in mind your wall outlet is connected to a power plant. Through all the voltage regulators, auto boosters. transformers, switching capacitor banks(reduce power factor), etc. These things can add harmonics. A perfect sinusoidal wave has only one harmonic. Harmonics refers to disortions in the wave. The voltage from your outlet can very a great deal 115V to 120 V usualy.

Now here is the kicker. With all the thousands of miles of copper and aluminum electricity has to travel through to get to your stereo a one meter power cable is suppose to make it sound better? I don't think it does. As long as the power cable you are using fits snuggle into the wall outlet and into the back of your amp and has the proper current rating it will work fine. As for harmonics, all an amp does is convert a AC to DC used to bias transistors anyway. Voltage regulators, auto boosters and other things that might cause harmonics are designed to switch in such a fashion that the harmonics are at much higher frequencies so they can be easly filtered out. Amp designers know from the undergraduate power classes they took in college that there are voltage fluctuations and harmonics and take this into account when designing their power supplies. The design of the power supply in the amp is what is important.

As for the 8 gauge cord at least you didn't pay for it:)
HERE IS AN INTERESTING THOUGHT FROM A COMPANY THAT MAKES POWER CORDS:
"Yes, an 8 gauge cable can deliver more current than a stock 14 gauge
cable. This is basic physics that the more conductive material you have
available, the greater the capacity for power transmission. As the AC
power gets close to the current capacity of a cable the impedance
changes, thus negatively affecting sound quality. With the larger gauge
cable this problem is reduced or eliminated.

The 14 gauge cable in you wall should be a solid core romex variety.
Most stock 14 gauge power cables are stranded wire. The same gauge
stranded wire will restrict current and change impedance before the
similar gauge solid core wire would do this. This only is reason enough
to upgrade the gauge of power cables for audio components. Also, audio
components are more sensitive to the slight impedance changes or voltage
fluctuations. These changes result in audible sonic differences to your
system. You refrigerator or microwave are less sensitive to these
issues.

Technically speaking; you will not receive additional current or wattage
from the wall since you are limited by the constraints of the 15 amp
circuit. The benefit presented to the amp will be that you are not
degrading or restricting the power before it reaches the amp."
WELL, WHAT ABOUT THAT?
ZF

[okiemax]

Yes, if it wasn't there I wouldn't have any electricity:) The question here is does a 3 ft. power cord really make a component sound better.

I had that problem last Summer. A lot of the wire wasn't there anymore, and I was without electricity for a week. But here is my point. Whether you are a few miles or hundreds of miles away from where your power is generated doesn't seem relevant to the power cord issue. If you disagree, please explain why.

Users report mixed results with aftermarket power cords, improvements depending on specific cord/component combinations. Many users have found an improvment sufficient to justify a purchase. They might be amused if you suggested they just imagined an improvement.

Why could an aftermarket power cord would make a component sound better than the stock cord? Obviously there could be differences in the length, gauge, and composition of the wire, and in the plugs, IEC connectors, covering, and color.. Any of these might help explain better sound. No, wait a minute, the length couldn't possibly make a difference !

[okiemax]

When the source of the RF and interference lies largely within your house, even within other components such as CDPs a couple of feet away, the answer is yes.

rw

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[woodman]

Users report mixed results with aftermarket power cords, improvements depending on specific cord/component combinations. Many users have found an improvment sufficient to justify a purchase. They might be amused if you suggested they just imagined an improvement.

Then, amused they will be ... for I'm here to tell them that they indeed DID imagine any performance enhancement. I've stated it here at this board before and I'll state it again and again and again and again and again until people wake up and smell the morning coffee.

A POWER CORD - IN AND OF ITSELF CANNOT HAVE ANY EFFECT UPON A COMPONENT'S PERFORMANCE ... PERIOD! End of story - end of conversation. Anyone who's actually educated in electronics (and has practical hands-on experience with same) will verify what I'm saying here. It's simply not within the realm of possibility.


Why could an aftermarket power cord would make a component sound better than the stock cord? Obviously there could be differences in the length, gauge, and composition of the wire, and in the plugs, IEC connectors, covering, and color.. Any of these might help explain better sound. No, wait a minute, the length couldn't possibly make a difference !

None of those things have the slightest bit of relevance ... none - nada - zero - zilch. It's nothing more than a hoax - a myth - smoke and mirrors - BS - hype!

[woodman]

HERE IS AN INTERESTING THOUGHT FROM A COMPANY THAT MAKES POWER CORDS:
"Yes, an 8 gauge cable can deliver more current than a stock 14 gauge
cable. This is basic physics that the more conductive material you have
available, the greater the capacity for power transmission. As the AC
power gets close to the current capacity of a cable the impedance
changes, thus negatively affecting sound quality. With the larger gauge
cable this problem is reduced or eliminated.

The 14 gauge cable in you wall should be a solid core romex variety.
Most stock 14 gauge power cables are stranded wire. The same gauge
stranded wire will restrict current and change impedance before the
similar gauge solid core wire would do this. This only is reason enough
to upgrade the gauge of power cables for audio components. Also, audio
components are more sensitive to the slight impedance changes or voltage
fluctuations. These changes result in audible sonic differences to your
system. You refrigerator or microwave are less sensitive to these
issues.

Technically speaking; you will not receive additional current or wattage
from the wall since you are limited by the constraints of the 15 amp
circuit. The benefit presented to the amp will be that you are not
degrading or restricting the power before it reaches the amp."
WELL, WHAT ABOUT THAT?
ZF

What about it, you ask? Well, that company is guilty of perpetrating and perpetuating a FRAUD! That entire text reveals to me that this is a company that's sorely lacking in technical knowledge - not to mention moral, ethical behavior. In other words it's all a bunch of nonsense ... bullsh*t to put it bluntly! The marketing of after-market power cords as something that will enhance the performance of any electronic device or component is the biggest ripoff in all of consumer electronics IMO. It pisses me off bigtime is what it does! It is designed to extract money from the unsuspecting and gullible under totally false pretenses. I can hardly think of anything more dishonest and despicable!

[mtrycraft]

You are missing the point. You point to a test where equally (expensive) cables are considered equivalent and suggest that is evidence that a $1 cable would fare the same. It is not.
I am sure that Mr. Car Stereo can find any number of "expensive" cables that may not perform much better ( in his car stereo?) than El Cheapos. Try Valhalla vs. RS on something significantly better than mid-fi stuff and let me know the results.

rw

Get a grip, READ the Article, DON'T speculate.

No, you missed the point. They are not equally expensive as one was $990. the other a cheapo. Other test may have used similarly priced cables. And no, it wasn't a car stereo but the 'golden ears' own golden system.

You know, you would not look so foolish and make stupid statements if you read those articles, for a change.

But, you ar also missing the point, big time, if you think price has anything to do with being superior, equivalent or inferior. Zippo, nada, nothing to do with costs. Its good old electrical parameters that matters. And, as Davis has aptly shown, the parameters don't need to be that close to not matter. Get it?

But, the day you bring some evidence to the table to discuss about cable audibility, please be sure to do so so we can discuss it, OK?
Hard to discuss anything with a wall but you take the cake.

[zappafreak]

What about it, you ask? Well, that company is guilty of perpetrating and perpetuating a FRAUD! That entire text reveals to me that this is a company that's sorely lacking in technical knowledge - not to mention moral, ethical behavior. In other words it's all a bunch of nonsense ... bullsh*t to put it bluntly! The marketing of after-market power cords as something that will enhance the performance of any electronic device or component is the biggest ripoff in all of consumer electronics IMO. It pisses me off bigtime is what it does! It is designed to extract money from the unsuspecting and gullible under totally false pretenses. I can hardly think of anything more dishonest and despicable!
SO, IN YOUR OPINION A 14GA. STRANDED POWER CORD CAN BRING EVERY BIT AS MUCH TO THE AMP AS AN 8GA. POWER CORD?
WHY ISN'T (OR IS THERE) ANYONE CALLING FOR LEGAL ACTION (MAYBE CLASS ACTION) TO STOP THIS NONSENSE?
ZF

[woodman]

SO, IN YOUR OPINION A 14GA. STRANDED POWER CORD CAN BRING EVERY BIT AS MUCH TO THE AMP AS AN 8GA. POWER CORD?
WHY ISN'T (OR IS THERE) ANYONE CALLING FOR LEGAL ACTION (MAYBE CLASS ACTION) TO STOP THIS NONSENSE?
ZF


ZF:
You're missing the point - mostly because you've been misled by what the power cord "mfg." said in their marketing hype - err "bulletin". Of course an 8ga. wire is capable of passing more electrical current than a 14ga. wire can ... the bottom-line question must be: is this meaningful or even relevant? The answer is a big, fat NO! There is no point whatsoever in supplying more current than a given device or component actually needs. The inference that the smaller gauge power cord is LIMITING what the device receives from the wall socket, therefore impeding its ability to perform up to its potential is not only misleading ... it's flat out WRONG. If a heavier gauge power cord would make any electronic device perform better, the mfg. of said device would surely provide one for the consumer, since the cost (to them) wouldn't amount to diddly-squat.

As far as being prosecuted for this "fraud", the FTC (which is the agency responsible for policing misrepresentation) has it's hands full of what they consider more important matters to pursue. Eventually, they might get around to this one, but don't hold your breath. A "class-action" suit would certainly be possible, though. You want to instigate one?

[FLZapped]

SO, IN YOUR OPINION A 14GA. STRANDED POWER CORD CAN BRING EVERY BIT AS MUCH TO THE AMP AS AN 8GA. POWER CORD?
WHY ISN'T (OR IS THERE) ANYONE CALLING FOR LEGAL ACTION (MAYBE CLASS ACTION) TO STOP THIS NONSENSE?
ZF


Money, politics - isn't a hot enough topic......

Some of it is basically correct, such as 8 AWG will, by itself, conduct higher current than 14 AWG. However, as a power cord connected to the 14 AWG in-wall wiring, the 14 AWG wiring is the limiting factor......so it becomes difficult to build a "fraud" case when at least part of the information is correct, the rest thay could just claim as being a simple mistake in editing....

-Bruce

[E-Stat]

Get a grip, READ the Article, DON'T speculate.
I did. It is evident that you are unable to manage multiple concurrent rants, so take a breath, slow down and let's get back to some good old fashioned reading retention.

Here is my original comment:

Gee that's funny. You mean like all the DBT references you gave me ? (save the Tag McLaren one of course that does not support your viewpoint)

I remain talking about the Tag McLaren reference.


No, you missed the point. They are not equally expensive as one was $990. the other a cheapo. Other test may have used similarly priced cables. And no, it wasn't a car stereo but the 'golden ears' own golden system.
It is here that you have crossed rants and am referring to something completely different. Let's both reread the TagMcLaren claim again, shall we?

http://www.tagmclaren.com/members/news/news77.asp

TEST SET-UP

Cable test: The cables were a Nordost Solar Wind interconnect and a TAG McLaren F3-10-ANA analog interconnect. Just look at their names and you can see who is really in the business of selling cable!

Both the cables under test were connected between the dual outputs of a TAG McLaren DPA32R pre-amplifier and the analogue inputs of a second DPA32R so that each one could be selected very rapidly. The source for the test was a CD recording of “Sad Old Red” by “Simply Red” played on a DVD32R, which was connected using S/PDIF and T2L sync connection to the first DPA32R. The outputs of the second DPA32R were connected to a pair of 250MR monobloc power amplifiers driving a pair of F1-RLA loudspeakers. All the audio cabling with the exception of the Nordost cable under test was TAG McLaren F3-10 series.

This is an example of what I consider a well documented test because it supplies information as to the system used and the content. We can set aside the fact that they piggybacked two preamps, doubled the number of cables and contacts and ran the signal through a switch box for now. Similarly, I doubt that a Simply Red recording is likely going to be representative of the best available, but at least they revealed what they used. So, what exactly were the cable contestants? Let's read aloud together what they are:

N-O-R-D-O-S-T--S-O-L-A-R--W-I-N-D----AND---T-A-G-M-C-L-A-R-E-N--F-3-A-N-A---A-N-A-L-O-G

Are you keeping up OK?. So what do the Nordost Solar Wind and the TagMcLaren F3-ANA analog cables cost? The answer to the second question can be found on the same website. Follow this link to their direct shopping link for the cable and enter (2) cables at say 1.0 meter (they price by each)

http://www.tagmclaren.com/shopping/intro.asp?page=cables&type=an-rca-rca

The result is £ 193.95. Today's conversion from the British pound and the dollar is around 1.9 so in dollars the cost of the TagMcLaren analog cables is $ 368.50. Are you still with me? Next question is how much do the Nordost Solar Winds cost in the same length? Here is one Nordost dealer who posts his prices on the web:

http://www.fatwyre.com/intercon_b2_04.html

Scroll down and find the Nordost Solar Wind. They sell a one meter pair for $110.00.
__________________________________________________ _________________________
Ok, let's review what we've learned, shall we?

Neither cable costs as much as $990 nor as little as $1.00. Both would be considered overkill by your keen senses. This test proves what it proves. Remember this comment of yours?

Actually, they all support my view. You just cannot understand it.

Unless you are now endorsing $100+ Nordost cables, your statement is not supported by the facts.

Is there any part of that you are unable to follow? I sure hope not. Sheesh!

Now, onto your next rant. There were four references in your original list with Mr. Car Stereo, none of which had a link to the text. I will be happy to comment on whichever one your second rant refers to if you will be so kind as to provide the text.

rw

[skeptic]

Here's some data from the American Wire Gage tables. #14 wire has a resistance of 2.525 ohms per thousand feet. # 8 wire has a resistance of 0.6282 ohms per thousand feet. The resistance of a 6 foot power cord (counting both legs) of # 14 wire is .0303 ohms. The comparable resistance for #8 is .0075384 ohms. With a 120 volt supply and a 10 amp draw, the voltage drop across the #14 wire is 0.303 volts meaning the amplfier would receive only 119.697 volts from 120 volt supply while using a #8 power cord would get you a .075385 volt drop applying 119.924615 volts, about a quarter of a volt more. As they say, that's close enough for government work but for those of you who can hear that small a difference, I tip my hat to you.

As for whether a #8 wire can carry more than a #14 wire, that is a more complicated question. Carrying current continuously under identiacal conditions the answer is yes. But for momentary surges, while ultimately the answer is still the same, the numbers can be astounding. For example, in an accident I witnessed in 1987 due to defective 15 kv disconnect switches (fortunately nobody was hurt or killed and no permanent damage was done to any equipment) number 12 wire carried at least 600 amps long enough to trip a GE magnablast circuit breaker but even so, the circuit upset lasted long enough for the number 12 wire to vaporize. So the current was somewhere between 600 amps and possibly as high as 100,000 amps or more. (Under identical conditions, I'm quite sure a #8 would have done the same.)

[thepogue]

this my friends is very very encouraging!! like the days of the ole AR!!! the digs...blood flyin' everywhere!! feet fur and lips just a flappin'...I LOVE THIS PLACE!! ohhhh i'm gettin goose bumps!!

[mtrycraft]

this my friends is very very encouraging!! like the days of the ole AR!!! the digs...blood flyin' everywhere!! feet fur and lips just a flappin'...I LOVE THIS PLACE!! ohhhh i'm gettin goose bumps!!




At least you could have put our names on the jersies:)

[mtrycraft]

SO, IN YOUR OPINION A 14GA. STRANDED POWER CORD CAN BRING EVERY BIT AS MUCH TO THE AMP AS AN 8GA. POWER CORD?
WHY ISN'T (OR IS THERE) ANYONE CALLING FOR LEGAL ACTION (MAYBE CLASS ACTION) TO STOP THIS NONSENSE?
ZF


Your question is not really relevant here, or at least not in regards to what that nonsense stated:
"The 14 gauge cable in you wall should be a solid core romex variety.
Most stock 14 gauge power cables are stranded wire. The same gauge
stranded wire will restrict current and change impedance before the
similar gauge solid core wire would do this. "

What they are claiming here is that stranded wire and solid wire of the same gauge will not pass the same current. That is pure technical ignorance in their part. Simple. Why even entertain further beliefe in their garbage?

Just one gross flaw amonge all of their nonsense.

[mtrycraft]

Money, politics - isn't a hot enough topic......

Some of it is basically correct, such as 8 AWG will, by itself, conduct higher current than 14 AWG. However, as a power cord connected to the 14 AWG in-wall wiring, the 14 AWG wiring is the limiting factor......so it becomes difficult to build a "fraud" case when at least part of the information is correct, the rest thay could just claim as being a simple mistake in editing....

-Bruce

Actually, 14ga will pass a huge amount of current before it melts from heat. So, it can pass what the 8 ga can without exceeding the 8ga stated safe insulation related capacity but exceeding the 14 ga wire's safety limits :) Put the 14ga on those wire poles, heat resistant ones :)

[zappafreak]

ZF:
You're missing the point - mostly because you've been misled by what the power cord "mfg." said in their marketing hype - err "bulletin". Of course an 8ga. wire is capable of passing more electrical current than a 14ga. wire can ... the bottom-line question must be: is this meaningful or even relevant? The answer is a big, fat NO! There is no point whatsoever in supplying more current than a given device or component actually needs. The inference that the smaller gauge power cord is LIMITING what the device receives from the wall socket, therefore impeding its ability to perform up to its potential is not only misleading ... it's flat out WRONG. If a heavier gauge power cord would make any electronic device perform better, the mfg. of said device would surely provide one for the consumer, since the cost (to them) wouldn't amount to diddly-squat.

As far as being prosecuted for this "fraud", the FTC (which is the agency responsible for policing misrepresentation) has it's hands full of what they consider more important matters to pursue. Eventually, they might get around to this one, but don't hold your breath. A "class-action" suit would certainly be possible, though. You want to instigate one?

THANKS, I GET THE POINT.
AS FAR AS INSTIGATING ANYTHING..... I AM PROBABLY THE LEAST QUALIFIED PERSON TO CHALLANGE ANYONE ON THIS STUFF. I WAS ONLY CURIOUS.
I'M ALSO CURIOUS IF POWER CONDITIONERS AND POWER PLANTS AND HOSPITAL GRADE OUTLETS ARE BOGUS AS WELL.
THANKS AGAIN,
ZF

[mtrycraft]

THANKS, I GET THE POINT.
AS FAR AS INSTIGATING ANYTHING..... I AM PROBABLY THE LEAST QUALIFIED PERSON TO CHALLANGE ANYONE ON THIS STUFF. I WAS ONLY CURIOUS.
I'M ALSO CURIOUS IF POWER CONDITIONERS AND POWER PLANTS AND HOSPITAL GRADE OUTLETS ARE BOGUS AS WELL.
THANKS AGAIN,
ZF

Certainly the many claims for them are bogus, especially for the hospital grade outlet is a whopper.
The other two may have a place, but it is a flimsy may at best.

Audio is full of voodoo, hype, bs, myth. Why should it be different from any other consumer marektplace? How would it be immune?

[zappafreak]

Certainly the many claims for them are bogus, especially for the hospital grade outlet is a whopper.
The other two may have a place, but it is a flimsy may at best.

Audio is full of voodoo, hype, bs, myth. Why should it be different from any other consumer marektplace? How would it be immune?

GOOD PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF AND ALL OF THE OTHERS ON AUDIOREVIEW.COM WHO HAVE ANSWERED MY QUESTION HAVE BEEN AN IMPRESSIVE IMMUNIZATION!
NOW, IF SOMEONE CAN JUST TELL ME IF SEPARATING THE +/- SPEAKER WIRE AND LIFTING IT OFF OF THE CARPET TO REDUCE IMPEDANCE AND HELP ELIMINATE STATIC ARE ALSO FALSE CLAIMES,VOODOO,BS,MYTH,HYPE ETC...
MANY THANKS,
ZF

[markw]

GOOD PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF AND ALL OF THE OTHERS ON AUDIOREVIEW.COM WHO HAVE ANSWERED MY QUESTION HAVE BEEN AN IMPRESSIVE IMMUNIZATION!
NOW, IF SOMEONE CAN JUST TELL ME IF SEPARATING THE +/- SPEAKER WIRE AND LIFTING IT OFF OF THE CARPET TO REDUCE IMPEDANCE AND HELP ELIMINATE STATIC ARE ALSO FALSE CLAIMES,VOODOO,BS,MYTH,HYPE ETC...
MANY THANKS,
ZF


ARE YOU SAYING YOU'VE HEARD THIS AND VERIFY THAT IT'S TRUE?

[okiemax]

Then, amused they will be ... for I'm here to tell them that they indeed DID imagine any performance enhancement. I've stated it here at this board before and I'll state it again and again and again and again and again until people wake up and smell the morning coffee.

A POWER CORD - IN AND OF ITSELF CANNOT HAVE ANY EFFECT UPON A COMPONENT'S PERFORMANCE ... PERIOD! End of story - end of conversation. Anyone who's actually educated in electronics (and has practical hands-on experience with same) will verify what I'm saying here. It's simply not within the realm of possibility.



None of those things have the slightest bit of relevance ... none - nada - zero - zilch. It's nothing more than a hoax - a myth - smoke and mirrors - BS - hype!

You said: "Then, amused they will be ... for I'm here to tell them that they indeed DID imagine any performance enhancement." I know two things for sure. (1) You are not a clairvoyant who through telepathy knows what all listeners have and have not heard. (2)You have not conducted controlled listening tests on all those who claim to hear differences, and therefore have no evidence to support your own heroic claim. You are very emphatic in your statements, but no matter how much you jump up and down, being adamant is no substitute for offering substance.

On second thought, I'm not so sure about your psychic powers, so please don't take offense at what I have said and put a spell on me. If I can no longer hear differences in cables, I will know who to blame.

[skeptic]

"no matter how much you jump up and down, being adamant is no substitute for offering substance."

And that's why I gave you substance. Read my other post. Between number 8 and number 14, the difference a six foot power cord makes to the power input of an amplifier drawing 10 amps!!!!! is only a quarter of a volt. Do you understand what that means? Do I have to spell it out for you? It mean N-O-T-H-I-N-G !!!!! Nada, Nil, Negatory, Zilch, Nicht, Nein, Nyet. Capiche?????

[zappafreak]

ARE YOU SAYING YOU'VE HEARD THIS AND VERIFY THAT IT'S TRUE?

NO, I ONLY WANTED TO KNOW WHO ELSE HEARD THIS AND BELIVES IT.
AS STUPID AS IT SOUNDS, MAPLESHADE ACTUALLY SELLS SPEAKERWIRE STANDS. I DON'T RECALL WHERE IT WAS THAT I READ ABOUT SEPARATING
THE +/- LEADS BUT SUPPOSEDLY THEY SHOULD BE KEPT AT LEAST 3IN. APART
TO DECREASE IMPEDANCE. THIS STUFF SOUNDED SO GOOFEY TO ME I JUST HAD TO ASK ABOUT IT!
ZF

[okiemax]

"no matter how much you jump up and down, being adamant is no substitute for offering substance."

And that's why I gave you substance. Read my other post. Between number 8 and number 14, the difference a six foot power cord makes to the power input of an amplifier drawing 10 amps!!!!! is only a quarter of a volt. Do you understand what that means? Do I have to spell it out for you? It mean N-O-T-H-I-N-G !!!!! Nada, Nil, Negatory, Zilch, Nicht, Nein, Nyet. Capiche?????

I doubt may readers equate being adamant with being right. Emphatic statements don't make for a compelling argument, and if overdone, may even weaken a person's argument by suggesting he is trying to compensate for no having enough factual information. An example might be you loading up your post with the word "no" in as many languages as you could imagine. This strikes me as akin to filling a flaccid ballon with hot air.

If you are saying the test data prove no one ever heard a difference when comparing an after market power cord with a stock cord, then yes, I would like to have your reasoning spelled out to me. Many listeners claim to hear a difference, so how do the test data prove the difference they hear is not real?

[E-Stat]

IIf you are saying the test data prove no one ever heard a difference when comparing an after market power cord with a stock cord, then yes, I would like to have your reasoning spelled out to me. Many listeners claim to hear a difference, so how do the test data prove the difference they hear is not real?
Give it up. After all, Skeptic proved that there could be no discernible difference merely with his pencil and paper.

rw

[skeptic]

Bench test measurements will back up the calculations 100%. No ifs ands or buts. And since most amplifiers rarely if ever draw 10 amps, the actual difference will be even less. Furthermore, any amplifier which would sound different when the line voltage drops by a quarter of a volt would be one piece of crap. And that's in any language you care to use.

[mtrycraft]

Give it up. After all, Skeptic proved that there could be no discernible difference merely with his pencil and paper.

rw


And, you proved it how? By claiming a difference? How marvelous. Or did you just take a poll?

[mtrycraft]

Many listeners claim to hear a difference, so how do the test data prove the difference they hear is not real?

And many clients of John Edwards claim that Edwards indeed talked to their dead relatives. Why is that not true?
Many claim to have been abducted by aliens. Prof John Mack of Harvard supports those claims.
And the empty claims go on and on...

[Mash]

to invest in some comprehensive Digital Multimeters so you can know what you really are dealing with. Every now and then a discontinued-meter-line sale comes along and I pick up another meter. I have 4 large auto-everything AC/DC meters and some small basic units. I can plug a large auto-everything meter into a wall plug and watch the line frequency float up and down several tenths of a Hz. Sometimes the voltage floats and sometimes it is steady, but very seldom does it sit at 120 VAC. As long as the person in control at the power plant brings his generators on-line to the grid ONLY after those generators are perfectly phase-synchronized to the grid, none of this matters a whit. [Every now and then the person in control at the power plant will connect a generator on-line to the grid that is NOT perfectly phase-synchronized to the grid and that generator explodes. Ever seen the results of a 300,000 to 500,000 pound generator that exploded? It is a bit messy.]

I quit reading about power cords, interconnects, and speaker wires long ago. I don't bother with a lot of other audio reviews and ads, either. There is always another person who has "just discovered" a terrible new problem that you in your sad ignorance have been overlooking. OH, and by the way, that kind chap who discovered the terrible problem also just happens to be able to sell you the cure......

The chaps at the Boston Audio Society looked at speaker wires in the early 1970''s and published their data showing that good old 12 AWG zip was best. Next came 14 AWG zip and 10 AWG zip, then 16 AWG zip, and so forth. Yet people still wring their hands over this question and worry about physically splitting the zip leads apart and then putting those speaker wires on little elevating/seperating towers and whatnot.

Hmmm...maybe I should "discover" a terrible new problem and then be generously willing to sell everyone the cure. I could even salve my conscience by replacing my Baja with a nice 42'+, triple blown-mill, 140 mph Formula offshore.... AHH... the sacrifices I could make for my fellow audiophiles...

[mtrycraft]

How is audio any different from other hobbies or marketplace? Why would audio be immune from all the bs, voodoo, hype and myth?

Let me know if you need a partner in discovering the next flaw and cure :)

[okiemax]

And many clients of John Edwards claim that Edwards indeed talked to their dead relatives. Why is that not true?
Many claim to have been abducted by aliens. Prof John Mack of Harvard supports those claims.
And the empty claims go on and on...

GEE-WHIZ, why didn't I think of that ! People can't talk to their dead relatives, and this of course proves listeners can't hear a difference between power cords. Hey skeptic, if you are reading this, there is no need for further attempts to answer my question. With a dazzling display of scientific brillance, mtrycraft has once again found a shortcut to the truth.

[woodman]

You said: "Then, amused they will be ... for I'm here to tell them that they indeed DID imagine any performance enhancement." I know two things for sure. (1) You are not a clairvoyant who through telepathy knows what all listeners have and have not heard. (2)You have not conducted controlled listening tests on all those who claim to hear differences, and therefore have no evidence to support your own heroic claim. You are very emphatic in your statements, but no matter how much you jump up and down, being adamant is no substitute for offering substance.

On second thought, I'm not so sure about your psychic powers, so please don't take offense at what I have said and put a spell on me. If I can no longer hear differences in cables, I will know who to blame.

Okie m'boy:
Your persistence, stubborness, perseverance, and determination are only exceeded by your seemingly terminal gullibility - whether you're aware of that fact or not. No, I make no claims of clairvoyance to tell me about power cords, and whether or not people actually hear what they claim to hear regarding them. I have sufficient first-hand experience in audio to know that people hear all sorts of things which in the vast majority of cases are the creation of their own personal ABEs. Nor have I conducted all sorts of scientific, controlled listening tests to verify what I know to be true about the subject. This is because of my education in electronics, and of even greater importance, my hands-on working experience with consumer electronic products - most notably work on power supplies where a vast majority of servicing problems are found to be originating. I also have experience in designing power supplies for electronic products. This experience spans more than half a century! What sort of "credentials" do YOU bring to the table? Beyond hearing what you've "heard with your own ears", that is?

Whether or not there are audible differences in interconnects (analog) and speaker wires, I'm willing to concede the possibility of. However, it's my contention that any differences that DO exist with those accessory products will be so small, subtle, and in the final analysis inconsequential. It defies all sense of reason and logic that people are not only willing to spend vast sums of money on them, but are also downright EAGER to go on forums such as this one and argue endlessly about the merits of given ones, and what a "HUGE" difference they made to their system. It boggles the mind.

But power cords are a different "kettle of fish" altogether since they're simply unable to provide ANY performance enhancement to ANY electronic device or component - whether an amplifier, a receiver, a CD player, a VCR, a DAC, a DVD player, or anything else. It simply cannot happen! This is due to the function that a power cord provides in the overall scheme of things - electronically speaking.

So you think that my adamant position undermines MY credibility do you? Tsk, tsk. Methinks that you have a long way to go to prove that point. Simply claiming to hear something certainly doesn't make it so - not unless you can "prove it" through controlled listening tests. The possibility that you (or anyone else) could do so is simply impossible, so I recommend that you not even try - but if your die-hard attitude is such that you refuse to believe what I'm trying my level best to tell you ... go ahead and try - be my guest. When you fail miserably to do so, I'll expect you to post an apology. Now quit trying to mislead poor unsuspecting newbies here (or anywhere else).
Regards,

[DMK]

And many clients of John Edwards claim that Edwards indeed talked to their dead relatives. Why is that not true?
Many claim to have been abducted by aliens. Prof John Mack of Harvard supports those claims.
And the empty claims go on and on...

John Edwards probably does talk to dead relatives. I have done so myself a couple of times and I know others that have. It DOES happen.

Now, my skepticism comes in when those people claim the dead relatives talk back!

Also, I know first hand of a case of alien abduction as it happened to someone that works at my company. A bunch of Mexicans illegally entered the U.S and made off with him AND one of my company's semi trailers! It's TRUE!

Please don't make me correct you again! :) And since we're talking about power cords, yes they do make a difference. Try firing up your stereo without one sometime! Same with interconnects and speaker wire. See? I just solved a BUNCH of arguments and I have zero technical knowledge. You guys make this stuff too hard! :)

[okiemax]

Okie m'boy:
Your persistence, stubborness, perseverance, and determination are only exceeded by your seemingly terminal gullibility - whether you're aware of that fact or not. No, I make no claims of clairvoyance to tell me about power cords, and whether or not people actually hear what they claim to hear regarding them. I have sufficient first-hand experience in audio to know that people hear all sorts of things which in the vast majority of cases are the creation of their own personal ABEs. Nor have I conducted all sorts of scientific, controlled listening tests to verify what I know to be true about the subject. This is because of my education in electronics, and of even greater importance, my hands-on working experience with consumer electronic products - most notably work on power supplies where a vast majority of servicing problems are found to be originating. I also have experience in designing power supplies for electronic products. This experience spans more than half a century! What sort of "credentials" do YOU bring to the table? Beyond hearing what you've "heard with your own ears", that is?

Whether or not there are audible differences in interconnects (analog) and speaker wires, I'm willing to concede the possibility of. However, it's my contention that any differences that DO exist with those accessory products will be so small, subtle, and in the final analysis inconsequential. It defies all sense of reason and logic that people are not only willing to spend vast sums of money on them, but are also downright EAGER to go on forums such as this one and argue endlessly about the merits of given ones, and what a "HUGE" difference they made to their system. It boggles the mind.

But power cords are a different "kettle of fish" altogether since they're simply unable to provide ANY performance enhancement to ANY electronic device or component - whether an amplifier, a receiver, a CD player, a VCR, a DAC, a DVD player, or anything else. It simply cannot happen! This is due to the function that a power cord provides in the overall scheme of things - electronically speaking.

So you think that my adamant position undermines MY credibility do you? Tsk, tsk. Methinks that you have a long way to go to prove that point. Simply claiming to hear something certainly doesn't make it so - not unless you can "prove it" through controlled listening tests. The possibility that you (or anyone else) could do so is simply impossible, so I recommend that you not even try - but if your die-hard attitude is such that you refuse to believe what I'm trying my level best to tell you ... go ahead and try - be my guest. When you fail miserably to do so, I'll expect you to post an apology. Now quit trying to mislead poor unsuspecting newbies here (or anywhere else).
Regards,

Well, why didn't you just tell me to begin with that you not only know everything there is to know, but already know everything that ever will be known. We could have skipped the cable nonsense and got right to you advising me about more important matters, such as what stocks to buy and whether my sweetheart will be true. Just kidding. I don't doubt your credentials or your sincerity.

What do I bring to the table? Like you, a conviction that I am right, although on a smaller scale. I am confident in my ability to determine what is audible to me. It's that simple. My ability has served me well over the years, without advice from those who claim to know what I can hear better than I do. Their advice may be well intended, but I am put off by what frequently is the " I know better, so be like me" message.

You must be joking when you accuse me of misleading newbies. Check my posts. Where do you find me trying to persuade anyone on anything? I have suggested that people use their own judgment. Do you think they shouldn't?

[Mash]

Science and Engineering at its best.....We must all agree with DMK:

1. People CAN talk to dead relatives. Skepticism may be appropriate when those people claim the dead relatives talk back!

2. Alien abduction can happen. This was proven by DMK when a bunch of Mexicans illegally entered the U.S and made off with one of his company's drivers AND his company's semi trailer!

3. Power cords do make a difference. Try firing up your stereo without one sometime! Same with interconnects and speaker wire.

[E-Stat]

And, you proved it how? By claiming a difference? How marvelous. Or did you just take a poll?
Tell me mytry, in the spirit of scientific openness, what equipment do you listen to?

rw

[Lowdef]

Another thread that has deteriorated into show me show me show me, what starts out as an honest post gets turned on it's head with the intended question always getting lost. Some people respond with sincerity while others do nothing but challenge just for the sake of opposing that view regardless of it's merit. People like E-stat and Obiemax always provide worthwhile knowlege and are upfront with their experiences and quite frankly make naysayers on this board look silly most of the time. To be honest I find hearing differences between cables easier than between some components, especially cd players and I don't have or need to produce scientific data to prove it to anyone. I have my own ears and mind to do that for me. BTW I have a mandatory hearing test once a hear as part of my employment obligations and always finish in the top 10 of over 6000 employees. So maybe I hear things that some people on this board can't and that might be why their always demanding documentation for proof because they don't have the ability to do the same.

[mtrycraft]

Some people respond with sincerity while others do nothing but challenge just for the sake of opposing that view regardless of it's merit. People like E-stat and Obiemax always provide worthwhile knowlege and are upfront with their experiences

And how are you equipped to tell their worth? Is it good? Is it bs? Useless? Obviously you cannot differentiate. You only look for something to confirm your beliefs. No wonder you believe their story.




To be honest I find hearing differences between cables easier than between some components,

I like honesty. But, is it reality? You have no idea. Never will know what is imagined, what is real.




I don't have or need to produce scientific data to prove it to anyone.


Of course not.

I have my own ears and mind to do that for me.

Don't forget your eyes too. A dead giveaway of the answers. Oh, yes, confuses the issue of hearing just when you need it most.


BTW I have a mandatory hearing test once a hear as part of my employment obligations and always finish in the top 10 of over 6000 employees.

Ah, and that gives you immunity from imaginations, biases, etc, right?


So maybe I hear things that some people on this board can't

Or, what you don't hear.
Actuall, what we hear is really irrelevant. What is relevant is what you claim to hear and what you can demonstrrate to hear in an objective manner. Obviously you are not up to that task though. You need your eyes to tell you the answers, what you think you hear.




and that might be why their always demanding documentation for proof because they don't have the ability to do the same.

Actuall, you are still imagining things.

[mtrycraft]

NO, I ONLY WANTED TO KNOW WHO ELSE HEARD THIS AND BELIVES IT.
AS STUPID AS IT SOUNDS, MAPLESHADE ACTUALLY SELLS SPEAKERWIRE STANDS. I DON'T RECALL WHERE IT WAS THAT I READ ABOUT SEPARATING
THE +/- LEADS BUT SUPPOSEDLY THEY SHOULD BE KEPT AT LEAST 3IN. APART
TO DECREASE IMPEDANCE. THIS STUFF SOUNDED SO GOOFEY TO ME I JUST HAD TO ASK ABOUT IT!
ZF


By the way, you need to use lower case letters, ecept wher upper is appropriate:)

Yes, separating and those telephone poles are bogus as well, as much more of what is claimed in audio

[mtrycraft]

Tell me mytry, in the spirit of scientific openness, what equipment do you listen to?

rw


How is that relevant to what you can demonstrate with all your claims for audibility? Or, others claims of audibility?
ZERO.

I enjoy my boomoxes.

[E-Stat]

How is that relevant to what you can demonstrate with all your claims for audibility? Or, others claims of audibility?
ZERO.
Agreed. I ask for a different reason.

Most music lovers and audio hobbyists usually like to share such information . I rather liked Skeptic's description of his system and how it came to be. Many of us have been working on our systems for decades and our experiences take us down different paths. I for one rather like the exchange.

rw

[Lowdef]

Some people respond with sincerity while others do nothing but challenge just for the sake of opposing that view regardless of it's merit. People like E-stat and Obiemax always provide worthwhile knowlege and are upfront with their experiences

And how are you equipped to tell their worth? Is it good? Is it bs? Useless? Obviously you cannot differentiate. You only look for something to confirm your beliefs. No wonder you believe their story.




To be honest I find hearing differences between cables easier than between some components,

I like honesty. But, is it reality? You have no idea. Never will know what is imagined, what is real.




I don't have or need to produce scientific data to prove it to anyone.


Of course not.

I have my own ears and mind to do that for me.

Don't forget your eyes too. A dead giveaway of the answers. Oh, yes, confuses the issue of hearing just when you need it most.


BTW I have a mandatory hearing test once a hear as part of my employment obligations and always finish in the top 10 of over 6000 employees.

Ah, and that gives you immunity from imaginations, biases, etc, right?


So maybe I hear things that some people on this board can't

Or, what you don't hear.
Actuall, what we hear is really irrelevant. What is relevant is what you claim to hear and what you can demonstrrate to hear in an objective manner. Obviously you are not up to that task though. You need your eyes to tell you the answers, what you think you hear.




and that might be why their always demanding documentation for proof because they don't have the ability to do the same.

Actuall, you are still imagining things.

Hey Mtry you must have auto-response on your computer because your post all look the same and if I could hear you would probably sound the same as well. Would what I'm hearing from you be challenged by yourself to prove I am hearing what you are actually saying. Or is it the placebo effect and it is really Skeptic I'm hearing? Gosh this is so difficult!

[mtrycraft]

Hey Mtry you must have auto-response on your computer because your post all look the same and if I could hear you would probably sound the same as well. Would what I'm hearing from you be challenged by yourself to prove I am hearing what you are actually saying. Or is it the placebo effect and it is really Skeptic I'm hearing? Gosh this is so difficult!


I didn't think you'd have anything of imprtance to say. You certainly demonstrated it.

[mtrycraft]

Many of us have been working on our systems for decades and our experiences take us down different paths.rw

I enjoyed my boomoxes for that long instead of wasting time on useless stuff.

[mtrycraft]

GEE-WHIZ, why didn't I think of that ! People can't talk to their dead relatives, and this of course proves listeners can't hear a difference between power cords. Hey skeptic, if you are reading this, there is no need for further attempts to answer my question. With a dazzling display of scientific brillance, mtrycraft has once again found a shortcut to the truth.


You are still missing an imprtant aspect in all of this. That is the problem.
Both are testable. Either it can happen, or it cannot, or, when it happens, why and what circumstances it happens under.
You cannot accept that.

[mtrycraft]

John Edwards probably does talk to dead relatives.


Well, that is not what really happens if you watch any of his shows. He relays what they tell him, supposedly:)
His clients don't talk to them either but listen to what John has to say:)



Now, my skepticism comes in when those people claim the dead relatives talk back!


See above :)

Also, I know first hand of a case of alien abduction as it happened to someone that works at my company. A bunch of Mexicans illegally entered the U.S and made off with him AND one of my company's semi trailers! It's TRUE!


My fault:) You are right, of course. :)

Please don't make me correct you again! :)

Cannot promise you that. Short memory :) But I have you to remind me.


And since we're talking about power cords, yes they do make a difference. Try firing up your stereo without one sometime!

I remember that comment of mine, from time to time :)



Same with interconnects and speaker wire. See? I just solved a BUNCH of arguments and I have zero technical knowledge. You guys make this stuff too hard! :)


That is why we have you here to make is simple :)

[E-Stat]

I enjoyed my boomoxes for that long instead of wasting time on useless stuff.
Ok, that's a good start. I have a older Sony CFD-55 tape/CDP. What type do you favor?

rw

[DMK]

"His clients don't talk to them either but listen to what John has to say:)"

He gets PAID for this??!!? And with all this knowledge of his shows, you still post here. For free. :). Actually, I've never seen the show. I'm still flabbergasted over this Ernest Angley guy who heals people on tv. They all pass out. Thankfully, someone catches them before they hit the floor. It would be embarrassing if they landed and screwed up the bad back that Ernest just cured them of! :). Of course, since they're right there, a repeat performance would be in order!

"And since we're talking about power cords, yes they do make a difference. Try firing up your stereo without one sometime!

I remember that comment of mine, from time to time :)"

Ok, I admit it - I, too, purloin on occasion. But you are the most quoted and quotable guy on A/R, no? :)

[mtrycraft]

Ok, I admit it - I, too, purloin on occasion. But you are the most quoted and quotable guy on A/R, no? :)


Of course :D

[okiemax]

You are still missing an imprtant aspect in all of this. That is the problem.
Both are testable. Either it can happen, or it cannot, or, when it happens, why and what circumstances it happens under.
You cannot accept that.

Of course the power cord claims are testable. What I am not missing is your claim that an after market power cord has never made an audible difference compared to a stock cord. I will quote you from your 2-28 reply to Zappafreak on the subject of such differences: "As to an audible difference, hogwash." What I cannot accept is your double standard of demanding proof when others make claims, while never offering proof to back up your own claims. These people have at least tried what they are talking about. As far as I know, all you do is sit in your chair.

[zappafreak]

By the way, you need to use lower case letters, ecept wher upper is appropriate:)

Yes, separating and those telephone poles are bogus as well, as much more of what is claimed in audio
why?
zf

[Lowdef]

I didn't think you'd have anything of imprtance to say. You certainly demonstrated it.


And your pointless challenges are? I don't think so! And you demonstrate it a lot more on this board than I do . You should listen to your system more often, it might help.

[mtrycraft]

You should listen to your system more often, it might help.

How will that help you hear audible differences under DBT?

[mtrycraft]

Ok, that's a good start. I have a older Sony CFD-55 tape/CDP. What type do you favor?

rw

I don't listen to tape anymore. I am not partial to any one but I think mine may be JVC. Good price.

[mtrycraft]

Of course the power cord claims are testable. What I am not missing is your claim that an after market power cord has never made an audible difference compared to a stock cord. I will quote you from your 2-28 reply to Zappafreak on the subject of such differences: "As to an audible difference, hogwash." What I cannot accept is your double standard of demanding proof when others make claims, while never offering proof to back up your own claims. These people have at least tried what they are talking about. As far as I know, all you do is sit in your chair.


What will you accept? Anything? How do you prove a negative?
Oh, where are the proofs of differences? That needs to be demonstrated first. Why do I need to waste my time on foolish things?
These people can try till the cows come home. That doesn't make them audibly different from one another.
There is no positive demonstration for audible differences in power cords. Period. So, any such claim is indeed 'hogwash.'

[Beckman]

By the way, you need to use lower case letters, ecept wher upper is appropriate:)

Yes, separating and those telephone poles are bogus as well, as much more of what is claimed in audio

Have you even looked at a Mapleshade catalog? My god. CD treatments. Wood block. Speaker cables made from what looks like aluminum foil coverd in clear pastic. They must make a killing. Everything in the catalog is grosley over priced and looks like it was made in China for pennies. Even if they only sell a few hudred units they must make a ton of money. Now why couldn't I have though of doing something like that? Oh well, I guess having morals doesn't get you rich quick at the expense of others:(

[okiemax]

What will you accept? Anything? How do you prove a negative?
Oh, where are the proofs of differences? That needs to be demonstrated first. Why do I need to waste my time on foolish things?
These people can try till the cows come home. That doesn't make them audibly different from one another.
There is no positive demonstration for audible differences in power cords. Period. So, any such claim is indeed 'hogwash.'

JEEZ ! Suggesting you experiment with cables is like suggesting the WCTU experiment with getting drunk. Oh well, you probably are too hadicapped by your dogma to be objective anyway.

[okiemax]

Have you even looked at a Mapleshade catalog? My god. CD treatments. Wood block. Speaker cables made from what looks like aluminum foil coverd in clear pastic. They must make a killing. Everything in the catalog is grosley over priced and looks like it was made in China for pennies. Even if they only sell a few hudred units they must make a ton of money. Now why couldn't I have though of doing something like that? Oh well, I guess having morals doesn't get you rich quick at the expense of others:(

Welcome to the world of audio tweeks.You ain't seen nothing yet! Mapleshade is only the tip of the iceberg. Check out the AA Tweek Forum:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/bbs.html

You will see many unusual suggestions on how to improve audio performance for little or no money. I haven't had much luck with the few tweeks I have tried, except for using small dabs of poster tak (aka Blu Tak) to secure speakers to stands. I paid Staples about $2 for more of this stuff than I ever expected to use, but have since found it to be a very good removable adhesive for general use around the house.

Do the speakers sound better on poster tack than on the spikes that came with the stands? I don't know, but the stuff sure does a good job of keeping them from being knocked off the stands. Someday I'll do a sighted comparison to find whether I get more of a placebo effect from the poster tak or the spikes.

[zappafreak]

By the way, you need to use lower case letters, ecept wher upper is appropriate:)

Yes, separating and those telephone poles are bogus as well, as much more of what is claimed in audio
Check out the problems these true belivers think they have when they lift and separate the cables. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/97064.html, and for a fuller discussion http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/96517.html
The're really into this and in the 1st "DISCUSSION" a poster gets in trouble for being a little bit too snippy with another poster.
BIZARRE!
zf

[mtrycraft]

The're really into this and in the 1st "DISCUSSION" a poster gets in trouble for being a little bit too snippy with another poster.
BIZARRE!
zf


Thanks for the link, Most here are aware of the extreme view at AA abouyt most things audio :) That is why they created the cult web site.
Cults are bizarre indeed :D