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nightflier
10-17-2006, 10:08 AM
As I'm upgrading my HT setup, I'm selling my Axiom speakers to a friend and I've offered to set up & calibrate his system in a dedicated HT room. So far, we've set up two M22's as L&R and the VP150 as center (with some old Polk speakers as rears and a velodyne sub).

The room is rectangular, 12 x 16', set up length-wise with the plasma on the far wall, a couch in the middle about 3/4 of the way back, and it has wooden floors and pretty hard walls (just some posters on one wall and windows on the other. There is other furniture in the room, including two side chairs, a coffee table in the middle, some sitting pillows and two ottomans.

The problem is that no matter what I set up on the receiver (my old HK), the sound sounds muffled. The speakers sounded fine in my home, but now I'm not getting that crisp clear sound I was expecting, and we are having to turn up the volume quite a bit to hear the dialog. So I'm wondering if it's the room? The HK has pretty detailed setup options like seperate crossovers, and I'm pretty sure those are set properly, but I'm open to suggestions there too.

basite
10-17-2006, 10:19 AM
possebly the room and it's furniture we have kind off the same problem with the ht system, but ours can't be solved, cuz it is our living room, not somekind of a dedicated ht room.

the dialog problem, do you mean that the center is playing too soft?? if so, try setting the mains to -10 db or something, if that does't help, then it's or the speaker itselves (being to powerfull) or the amp (wrong set up)

hope this helped

greetz,
Basite.

kexodusc
10-17-2006, 11:29 AM
Without hearing your old room or the new one I can guess that the new room's acoustics are having a huge impact. it's possible there's more reflections going on in his room, muddying up the sound.

Before we look a that, I'd suggest just triple checking all the wiring, resetting the setup from scratch on the receiver, and make sure the dynamic range is set to its maximum, with all night modes and DSP's off.

If i had a nickel for everytime I turned on or off some stupid feature without knowing it while messing up the sound I'd have my HD projector by now.

Where are the speakers positioned? That coffee table could be causing some nasty reflections.

My Axiom M3Ti's are incredibly fussy and don't like being near the walls or excessive toe-in. I didn't like them much at first and delegated them to dining room duty. Once you've spent a week figuring out what they like, they're a very capable speaker for the money though. I take'em downstairs to my stereo setup now and then just to give'em a work out.

Dusty Chalk
10-17-2006, 12:43 PM
Not likely -- double-check the settings.

nightflier
10-17-2006, 01:54 PM
Before we look a that, I'd suggest just triple checking all the wiring, resetting the setup from scratch on the receiver, and make sure the dynamic range is set to its maximum, with all night modes and DSP's off.

Check. It actually sounds a tad better with night mode on, but right now, everything is off.


Where are the speakers positioned? That coffee table could be causing some nasty reflections.

The table is made of all wood (ikea I think), and is about 1.5 feet high. But it is not very wide and the speakers are to the right & left when I'm sitting in the middle of the couch. The speakers are on stands, about four feet from the ground for the tweeter. I've tried toe-ing them in, but that didn't do much for this problem.


My Axiom M3Ti's are incredibly fussy and don't like being near the walls or excessive toe-in. I didn't like them much at first and delegated them to dining room duty. Once you've spent a week figuring out what they like, they're a very capable speaker for the money though. I take'em downstairs to my stereo setup now and then just to give'em a work out.

I was hopping someone with Axioms would respond. I love my Axioms but I must say that I have always had a hard time setting up the M22's optimally. I have (well, I had) four of them, and the other two I use as my baseline for testing equipment, but getting them integrated with a sub is a lesson in frustration. I have other speakers I could sell instead, but with the HK receiver having only 50W (albeit HK watts), I don't have anything that is as efficient.

My guess is that it's the hard walls. My friend doesn't really have anything to cover them with and has venetian blinds on the windows. He also doesn't seem to be as disappointed with the sound. The Axioms are plenty loud and are a huge upgrade from the sound of the plasma's built-in speakers. But I'm not satisfied. I always thought I had a good ear for setting up HTs.

Now, I always thought that having hard surfaces would create the opposite effect, with speakers sounding brighter and harsh. Is that correct? I know it has to do with reflections & timing, but how do these factors affect the sound, then?

Dusty Chalk
10-17-2006, 04:06 PM
The only problem with room acoustics is that it's bordering on chaos. Depending where you sit, you could get cancellations in a highly reflective room.

It could also be that everything other than the ...I forget what it's called, the "presence" region? the part that makes human voice most audible ... anyway, everything other than that accentuated, reducing it by proxy.

Woochifer
10-17-2006, 05:04 PM
Any number of other things to look at before the receiver would come into play. Aside from the room acoustics, there's also the alignment to consider (distance to listening position, placement location, toe-in, etc.). If you had the speakers positioned a lot closer to the seated position, then that would affect the sound.

Another issue would be the level calibration -- have you level matched all of the speakers yet? Room acoustics affect every aspect of the calibration, so if you have not used the test tones (preferably with a SPL meter), you will definitely need to.

The dynamic range compression (or night mode) makes the dialog seem clearer by deadening the extremes and allowing you to boost the volume without the huge peaks intruding. But, that doesn't exactly fix the issue you posted about, which is lack of clarity. From the room that you describe, it seems more like a lot of issues with the time domain. A highly reflective room will smear the sound and make things less intelligible. Typically, hard surfaces will accentuate the highs because they tend to reflect the high frequencies more than lower frequencies, but uncontrolled reverberations will also sound more muddy than detailed. If you have a rug or blankets available, you should try draping those along the wall and throwing an area rug into the room.

kexodusc
10-17-2006, 06:07 PM
Nightflier, I'm starting to think you're just getting a quick crash course in the differences a room can make on a given system. You are trained and familiar with those speakers in your old room - the new environment will dramatically change the apparent tonality of what you're hearing. It could be better or worse. It's certainly different - what you were used to has been altered, so it sounds disagreeble to you. This could account for your friends apparent satisfaction.

Large, bare walls arent' great, and toe in can help a bit. I'm struggling with what you're describing as "muffled"...a bunch of smearing, time, and phase artificats will affect the sound, though I tend to agree with the other posters that you'd notice a more bright, echoey sound than "muffled". It's hard to describe in words what the reflections will do until you can hear it yourself. Speakers need to "breathe" though, as the saying goes. How close to the walls are the speakers? We try to keep them a few feet from the side walls and rear walls. The midrange frequencies are very vulnerable to boundaries, and higher frequencies will be reflected much more audibly than lower ones.

Any chance you could whip up a quick blueprint or picture for us. I think there's a good chance a lot of cheap easy fixes that can be recommended and attempted here. If nothing else, we can probably rule some things out.

nightflier
10-19-2006, 11:02 AM
I don't have a quick easy way to get a drawing into the computer - let me see what I can fanagle.

What you're describing, theoretically speaking, is the effect of a sound reflected off a hard wall causing it to arrive at the ear later than the same direct sound coming from the speaker. So if I understand this right, certain elements of this sound last longer than they should, depending on where they are on the frequency spectrum, because they travel through air at different speeds. Wouldn't this be audible as a muffled sound? Correct me if I'm not undertsanding that.

I'm going back to the house this weekend to try some tweaks. I'm also bringing my headphones just for comparison. Presuming that the receiver is set up properly, any recommendations / tweaks / suggestions. I will definitely move the speakers around and try different toe-in angles, but I can't really move the furniture too much. Any sugestions for something temporary, cheap, and light that will stand up on its own to try and tame reflections?

Kexo, why the new pic? He seems to be a rather contemptible fellow on the island, no?

kexodusc
10-19-2006, 11:31 AM
What you're describing, theoretically speaking, is the effect of a sound reflected off a hard wall causing it to arrive at the ear later than the same direct sound coming from the speaker. So if I understand this right, certain elements of this sound last longer than they should, depending on where they are on the frequency spectrum, because they travel through air at different speeds. Wouldn't this be audible as a muffled sound? Correct me if I'm not undertsanding that.
I think muffled, I think reduced, diminished, silenced etc. Like a muffler does to a car's noisy exhaust. But that's semantic. The reflected sound not only arrives later, but it can add and subtract (depending on phase) to the direct sound waves resulting in an "altered" response arriving at your ears. If you mix black and white, you get a shade of gray.


I'm going back to the house this weekend to try some tweaks. I'm also bringing my headphones just for comparison. Presuming that the receiver is set up properly, any recommendations / tweaks / suggestions. I will definitely move the speakers around and try different toe-in angles, but I can't really move the furniture too much. Any sugestions for something temporary, cheap, and light that will stand up on its own to try and tame reflections? Cheap? mmmm....how cheap? In my experience, years of trying to treat my room with furniture, household items, paintings, wall hangings etc, they do as much harm as good, and aren't room treatment. With exception to the diffusing ability of bookshelves and irregular depthed irrationally shaped furniture. But by all means try anything you can think of. CD/movie holding shelves could work a bit I suppose. Large cushion-heavy chairs? I'd focus on the speakers' proximity to the side walls, then rear wall, in that order.


Kexo, why the new pic? He seems to be a rather contemptible fellow on the island, no?
What? Not only is he the coolest, weirdest character on the island, he's a tremendous actor. He basically fought his way into the scripts like a walk-on making the starting line-up.
He's not a bad guy either - no member of the Others has killed any of the main characters - seems they've all been killed by each other - contemptible? He's the good guy...(On that note, why aren't you in our weekly Lost thread!!!)

nightflier
10-19-2006, 03:47 PM
Cheap? mmmm....how cheap? In my experience, years of trying to treat my room with furniture, household items, paintings, wall hangings etc, they do as much harm as good, and aren't room treatment. With exception to the diffusing ability of bookshelves and irregular depthed irrationally shaped furniture. But by all means try anything you can think of. CD/movie holding shelves could work a bit I suppose. Large cushion-heavy chairs? I'd focus on the speakers' proximity to the side walls, then rear wall, in that order.

Maybe I should ask, what materials in the DIY toolbelt do the best job of minimizing reflections. I've heard of people using egg crates, but that's hardly something people want hanging on their walls. Another problem with many treatments (store-bought or home-made) is that they are thick and take living space away. Maybe this is a minor quible, but just brushing up against some treatments will knock them down. For my situation, I need something temporary that we can use to test, but if reflections are indeed the problem, then I need to find something more permanent. P.S. I suggested a rug last weekend, and he wasn't keen about that on account of his two rotts who will make it their bed, dinner-plate, and toilet bowl all in one.


What? Not only is he the coolest, weirdest character on the island, he's a tremendous actor. He basically fought his way into the scripts like a walk-on making the starting line-up. He's not a bad guy either - no member of the Others has killed any of the main characters - seems they've all been killed by each other - contemptible? He's the good guy...(On that note, why aren't you in our weekly Lost thread!!!)

Coolest? He's a liar, a kidnapper, a little dictator with a short-man complex, and a sexist misogynist. Just because his little paradise went up in flames at the same time the plane broke appart, doesn't mean the passengers should be terrorized and treated like cattle. And just because the Others haven't killed anyone, it isn't for lack of trying. Also, none of the Others are all that happy about their life under his rule, even before the plane crash there were obvious signs of anguish. And what happened to all the kiddies they've kidnapped? Are their desicated bones drying at the bottom of an old kettle? I wouldn't put it past them. And I won't even go into all the chronological, physical, and scientific inconsistencies of the whole story line or the fact that the story is a cheap rip-off of once-popular novels (Jules Verne, Daniel Defoe, and Robert Louis Stevenson probably figure heavily with the show writers).
:incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato:

But I don't really watch the show that carefully -it's such a pedestrian opiate for the hoi polloi.

Just kidding. Just wanted to see what your reaction would be.
:18:

kexodusc
10-19-2006, 06:25 PM
Maybe I should ask, what materials in the DIY toolbelt do the best job of minimizing reflections. I've heard of people using egg crates, but that's hardly something people want hanging on their walls. Another problem with many treatments (store-bought or home-made) is that they are thick and take living space away. Maybe this is a minor quible, but just brushing up against some treatments will knock them down. For my situation, I need something temporary that we can use to test, but if reflections are indeed the problem, then I need to find something more permanent. P.S. I suggested a rug last weekend, and he wasn't keen about that on account of his two rotts who will make it their bed, dinner-plate, and toilet bowl all in one.

The best DIY materials are either Rigid Fiberglass (Ottawa Fiber, Owens Corning, Knauff,etc) of 2 inch thickness, 3lbs density/sq ft, or mineral wool from similar brands of the same density. I built mine out of the rigid fiberglass because it's a hard, compact rectangle that won't lose it's shape, is easy to build a fram out of 2x4's for a few dollars, and can be wrapped in burlap or muslin fabric for a few dollars per 2 X 4 panel. I made over 100 sq feet so far for around $1/sq ft panel.

I can provide details if you're interested. They look like fabric wrapped rectangles, way prettier than the Auralex and Sonotec acoustic foam panels I had and more effective.


Coolest? He's a liar, a kidnapper, a little dictator with a short-man complex, and a sexist misogynist. Just because his little paradise went up in flames at the same time the plane broke appart, doesn't mean the passengers should be terrorized and treated like cattle. And just because the Others haven't killed anyone, it isn't for lack of trying. Also, none of the Others are all that happy about their life under his rule, even before the plane crash there were obvious signs of anguish. And what happened to all the kiddies they've kidnapped? Are their desicated bones drying at the bottom of an old kettle? I wouldn't put it past them. And I won't even go into all the chronological, physical, and scientific inconsistencies of the whole story line or the fact that the story is a cheap rip-off of once-popular novels (Jules Verne, Daniel Defoe, and Robert Louis Stevenson probably figure heavily with the show writers).
:incazzato: :incazzato: :incazzato:

But I don't really watch the show that carefully -it's such a pedestrian opiate for the hoi polloi.

Just kidding. Just wanted to see what your reaction would be.
:18:

Pff...they're loyal to Benry to a fault - and you better watch it or you can be dealt with.

Seriously, you should be chiming in our Lost thread in Fav Films every week. Forever Autumn, Topspeed, GM, Worf, Kam, and other would luv the input...

Wireworm5
10-19-2006, 10:51 PM
From what you describe I'm thinking that you have a source problem. I guessing that you're using a dvd player and the settings are set to Dolby output and you have the HK receiver in stereo mode. So I would check and adjust these settings and see if that makes a difference.

nightflier
10-23-2006, 12:54 PM
OK, we tried a whole bunch of stuff. We duct-taped (he didn't want to mar the paint) blankets on the walls and used curtain rods inside the window sills on the left side. This certainly fixed the clap-your-hands-in-the-room effect, but still didn't help the sound enough. It improved but not enough. I also placed blankets on the floor and this improved things some more. Of course, this is not how he wants to leave it.

I'm going to try different cables next. We're currently using Dayton pretty much for everything (including speaker cables). Didn't think to bring some higher grade cables this time. If that improves things next time, I'm sure I'll get an ear-full from the cables-don't-make-a-dif crowd, but I'm running out of options...

Wire,

The receiver is set up properly with all the processing turned off. That said, listening in pure stereo / bypass mode also doesn't sound very good. Only when the volume is high is everything OK, but I don't think that's convenient for him.

Kexo,

I still have last week's episode to watch (stored on HD), so I'll stay clear for now. I signed up for Blockbuster and I feel like I need to watch a dvd every night just to get the best deal out of this. I'm so dvd'd out that I think I'll cancel as soon as my free trial month is up.

kexodusc
10-23-2006, 01:00 PM
I like what you're doing here Nightflier...most people don't take the time to actually experiment with stuff like this. Keep us up to date with whatever you find solves your problems.

As for Lost...hurry up and watch last week and get over there...

nightflier
10-30-2006, 12:59 PM
Just out of curiosity, the HK receiver (DPR-1001) delivers just 50W per channel (although with HK, that's a conservative number). Since the room is bigger, could this be adding to the problem?

I'm also wondering if the front L&R M22 Axiom speakers should be set to large? I've always set them to small with a 60Hz. cross-over to the sub. Maybe with a different room, this should be changed?